How would time travel affect a war between SW and ST?

[Baffalo]

Throughout all the EU of Star Wars (with the only exception that I know of from the Clone Wars series, which I will reject for this argument), Star Wars has never sent ships or people forwards or backwards through time, Force ghosts not withstanding. However, every show on Star Trek and several movies have gone through time at some point or another. Hell, time manipulation is so frequent, that the Enterprise falls into a natural time loop that lasts for days. Time travel is as common as going to warp sometimes, and that has to have a profound effect on the nature of war.

In the non-canon game Star Trek Armada, a ship from the future violates the Temporal Prime Directive in order to warn Picard and crew that the Borg succeeded in the future and that action must be taken immediately. While I'm sure most captains are unaware of major methods to travel through time, if it came down to choosing between the survival of your country and seeing it invaded by a band of hostile imperials, would you let something like the Temporal Prime Directive stand in your way? I would think not. So a starship decides to go back in time. Now comes the question of, can this ship somehow affect the war?

Perhaps the best case scenario would be to destabilize the wormhole leading to Imperial space. Without a conduit, the Empire won't much care what happens to a bunch of backwards barbarians who dissect themselves with energy just to move from place to place. It also prevents the violent rectal penetration via phallus that would ensue should the Empire be allowed to go to town on the Milky Way. Of course, even saving the Federation wouldn't save the captain from having to face a court marshal for his actions. He violated the Temporal Prime Directive and therefor is in the wrong despite saving the Federation.

The only other options that would ensure victory would be to deliver advanced technology back in time to help Earth advance, or travel back to when the Republic was so small and ineffective that the Federation might actually stand a chance. I'm not sure what the limit on time travel is, but there's a huge difference between 500 and 5000 years of development. So the only other viable way would be to go back and deliver the advanced technology, which would of course make things different in the long run. Who cares about a Warp 5 engine when we have a ship that can go warp 9.9999? Earth's entire culture would change profoundly, and maybe even leading to a planet where they expect advanced technology to be delivered rather than researching it.

Any other ideas as to how the Federation might win the war with time travel?

[Metahive]

The Temporal Prime Directive is never enforced when the results are beneficial for the Federation and even if not the Federation has no means to enforce it anyway. As for the other point, given the massive gap between Wars and Trek technology, even giving a fledgling Federation a one- or two-hundred year headstart won't make much of a difference. The Federation should just not try and take on the Empire militarily and concentrate on its actual strengths, which lie in negotiation and diplomacy. A war between Federation and Empire has not to be mandatory.

[mr friendly guy]

Usually this type of thread devolves into.

1. Trekkies suggesting time travel is already a tacit admission that Trek won't win in a straight up fight.

I don't know why people bother saying that because its a no shit Sherlock moment. Of course they can't win using conventional tactics, thats why they are trying unconventional ones. Its like saying the Taliban can't beat us in a straight up fight, thats why they resort to IEDs.

2. Trek time travel can't violate casuality.

I can't remember all the arguments for or against this proposition, but I notice a lot of these people don't object to say the Time Lords from Doctor Who doing something like that. It kind of help that such Whoverse races would most probably win even without resorting to direct time travel because they are so wanked powerful.

However, in the interest of not getting side tracked, one can utilise time travel without violating casuality to gain an advantage. For example assuming I had equivalent to UFP 29 th century level of time travel mastery, I can beam Yoda one month after his fight with Palpatine (assuming I am in the vicinity and know where he is). Then beam Yoda two months after his fight. Keep on doing this until I get 12 Yoda's. Sick them onto Palpatine when he is vulnerable (ie when he is giving a public speech) after explaining whats going on. Do note that you only need to explain this to the youngest version, since every other version would have been through this at least once (think about it for a minute). I am confident 12 Yoda's will defeat him without any serious loss of life or injury that won't heal, ie no time line alteration with Yoda has seriously occurred. Then I send them back again one mintue after I beamed them out. Obviously the youngest Yoda will be beamed out one month later (after one month of rest), the second youngest will also experience the same thing and so on, except the eldest, since he has already experienced this 12 times in total.

Now the Trekkie might say, why don't I do the same trick with ships using 24 th century technology. Say the slingshot around the sun. Invite a ship to come forward into the future and so on. With enough ships I can simply overwhelm the Empire's superior ships right? Just one problem. Its highly unlikely you will win without any loss of life what so ever, and hence casuality will be violated, because you can't bring the same ship back one minute after you took it into the future.

3. Trek's mastery of time travel in the 24 th century is suspect.

Perhaps, however just ask Spock how he did it in ST 4 and away you go. Whether you will get anything useful from that is another matter.

Lets just say that you can violate casuality. Your two options broadly speaking are

a. Close what ever technobabble worm hole connecting a galaxy far far away to the Milky Way, and stop the war ever occurring (the route I would go for). Similar to how say SG-1 used time travel to warn themselves not to go to the Aschen's world.

b. make Trek's technology even more advanced (the ones rabid trekkies people given over to speculative writing go for).

The second option has an obvious draw back. How fast can you advance a more primitive civilisation. Lets say the 24 th century feds decide to "up lift" the Federation from Archer's time. They bring Cardassian education booths or whatever they are called. Lets say in a generation you somehow uplift them to 24 th century levels. Congratulations you have gained 300 years come the time the Empire invades. While its hard to say how far one can advance in 300 years, I would say they would still be outclassed by the Empire technologically, not to mention logistically and numerically.

Ok, so lets try the same trick again. This time the original time traveller comes face to face with a time traveller from this new time line as he is about to uplift Archer's Federation. So now they gain 600-700 years advancement come the 24 th century when the Empire invades. Still losing the technological stakes here. So lets try it again. Wait. Just one problem. Eventually the technological gap would become too great that you just can't continue up lifting them. They would not understand the new scientific concepts. Its like trying to teach someone from the dark ages modern scientific knowledge.

The point is, even if you advance an earlier version of the UFP to 24 th century tech levels, then try it again, you will hit a limit with the time you have to work with. I don't believe at this point you will be technologically superior to the Empire, you still lose.

Now, assuming you can time travel all the way back to cave men time (can the UFP even go back that far?). Now you might make some improvement. I have heard it said human kind remained unchanged for a long time (like thousands of years) before we figured out fire, so I suppose if you take this route of argument we can advance humanity quite a bit by skipping thousands of years. However what comes out at the other end would not likely be a UFP we recognise (who is to say these new advance humans want to even be in a Federation as opposed to conquering aliens). Moreover it becomes quite speculative just what technology these new humans will develop, and becomes impossible to argue who will win because one side becomes undefined. On a side note I did consider this type of premise for a science fiction story, where you time travel and up lift your ancestors to win a future war. Might make a good story, but definitely unable to do a versus debate for the reason stated earlier.

Thus the most obvious recourse from using time travel, is to try and disrupt what ever technobabble wormhole connects the two universes before the Empire comes through, rather than try a straight up fight with the Empire which is doomed to fail.

[Darth Tedious]

The other big issue that tends to come up is the question of whether ST time travel really works (as in alters history), or whether it merely creates an alternate and/or parallel timeline. There is a lot of evidence to suggest so from within the Trek canon, but it's still considered fairly unconfirmed. It also may depend on the type of time travel used...

If it is indeed the case, it results in a kind of win-win situation. The ship(s) that time travel move into an alternate reality (where they win), while the Imperials merely see them dissapear from the original timeline and go on curbstomping their way through it.

[Stofsk]

The other big issue that tends to come up is the question of whether ST time travel really works (as in alters history), or whether it merely creates an alternate and/or parallel timeline. There is a lot of evidence to suggest so from within the Trek canon, but it's still considered fairly unconfirmed. It also may depend on the type of time travel used...

There is only two examples of time alteration resulting in a parallel universe being formed from a divergent track. 'Parallels' from TNG season seven, and the new Trek movie which is a reboot of the entire franchise (and the only reason why it's divergent is because nobody wants to see the original stuff expunged; AFAIC if it were consistent with the previous canon then it actually didn't create a divergent timeline but altered the existing one). Every single other example of time alteration affects the current continuum, to the point where the heroes are often portrayed as having to restore the balance through the plot - 'Tomorrow is Yesterday', 'City on the Edge of Forever' (Kirk and crew are only protected from McCoy's history-altering trip back thanks to the Guardian; otherwise their entire existence would have been irrevocably altered), 'Assignment: Earth', Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home, 'We'll Always Have Paris', 'Time Squared', the big one from TNG is 'Yesterday's Enterprise' where we see (from our perspective as the audience) the Enterprise alter and Guinan herself comments on how the ship feels 'wrong', and the character of Sela remains as a consequence of what happened. TNG's movie First Contact entire plot revolves around combating the Borg from altering Earth's past and the formation of the Federation (much like The Voyage Home). From DS9 they had a two-parter in the third season where Sisko goes back in time and has to masquerade as a historical figure, which obviously alters history from before their trip back to afterwards; an episode where O'Brien gets in some weird time loop which only affected his continuum, the TOS homage 'Troubles and Tribulations' where they accidentally go back and encounter the original Enterprise in time for its trip to Deep Space Station K-7, and the episode 'Children of Time', in which their Odo's decision to send them back to the present erases the entire colony's existence. I am sure there are more examples but by now you should be getting the idea.

Virtually every example of time travel has repercussions for the timeline. I can't see how that's open to debate. Think about TVH and FC for one: two big budget movie blockbusters where the entire plot revolves around going back in time to save the future. If going back in time in actuality resulted in a divergent timeline being created, then the actions of the heroes would have made no difference at all - in either case, there would be divergent timelines where Kirk and co failed to bring back whales or didn't figure it out or whatever, and similarly with Picard and Data preventing the Borg from assimilating the Earth centuries before they were first encountered. You can say that about every example of time travel in Star Trek. If that were the case, none of these episodes would ultimately matter. Fuck Parallels. That whole 'quantum realities' thing is complete bullshit, it contradicts the rest of the canon, and it was written by Brannon Braga - the final nail in the coffin as far as I'm concerned

[Baffalo]

There is only two examples of time alteration resulting in a parallel universe being formed from a divergent track. 'Parallels' from TNG season seven, and the new Trek movie which is a reboot of the entire franchise (and the only reason why it's divergent is because nobody wants to see the original stuff expunged; AFAIC if it were consistent with the previous canon then it actually didn't create a divergent timeline but altered the existing one). Every single other example of time alteration affects the current continuum, to the point where the heroes are often portrayed as having to restore the balance through the plot - 'Tomorrow is Yesterday', 'City on the Edge of Forever' (Kirk and crew are only protected from McCoy's history-altering trip back thanks to the Guardian; otherwise their entire existence would have been irrevocably altered), 'Assignment: Earth', Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home, 'We'll Always Have Paris', 'Time Squared', the big one from TNG is 'Yesterday's Enterprise' where we see (from our perspective as the audience) the Enterprise alter and Guinan herself comments on how the ship feels 'wrong', and the character of Sela remains as a consequence of what happened. TNG's movie First Contact entire plot revolves around combating the Borg from altering Earth's past and the formation of the Federation (much like The Voyage Home). From DS9 they had a two-parter in the third season where Sisko goes back in time and has to masquerade as a historical figure, which obviously alters history from before their trip back to afterwards; an episode where O'Brien gets in some weird time loop which only affected his continuum, the TOS homage 'Troubles and Tribulations' where they accidentally go back and encounter the original Enterprise in time for its trip to Deep Space Station K-7, and the episode 'Children of Time', in which their Odo's decision to send them back to the present erases the entire colony's existence. I am sure there are more examples but by now you should be getting the idea.

Virtually every example of time travel has repercussions for the timeline. I can't see how that's open to debate. Think about TVH and FC for one: two big budget movie blockbusters where the entire plot revolves around going back in time to save the future. If going back in time in actuality resulted in a divergent timeline being created, then the actions of the heroes would have made no difference at all - in either case, there would be divergent timelines where Kirk and co failed to bring back whales or didn't figure it out or whatever, and similarly with Picard and Data preventing the Borg from assimilating the Earth centuries before they were first encountered. You can say that about every example of time travel in Star Trek. If that were the case, none of these episodes would ultimately matter. Fuck Parallels. That whole 'quantum realities' thing is complete bullshit, it contradicts the rest of the canon, and it was written by Brannon Braga - the final nail in the coffin as far as I'm concerned

I made two posts a while back exploring these ideas, as far as what would happen if going back in time truely caused a parallel universe to be formed. I looked at both First Contact and The Voyage Home, and honestly, the implications are quite scary. If the Enterprise (or crew) went back in time, and created a parallel universe in doing so, then the universe they left behind is either a) royally fucked or b) partially fucked. From the perspective of the Enterprise and crew, yes, their actions cause the single continuity they are in to be altered by their actions, but that's because they're observing from within that continuum. Outside that, we don't have the perspective of those who are left behind to deal with the consequences. And given that they always arrive back at where they started only later, as if they'd still been there, means they don't observe a duplicate Enterprise. So to them, they might never know they're creating new timelines that alter the past. Maybe.

It's mostly conjecture. For the most part, time travel in Star Trek is whatever the writers need it to be in order to magically save the day. The heroes must win, and if they don't, the entire world (or Federation) dies. I wonder how many episodes would've been enhanced by simply ignoring time travel altogether? I'm not saying every episode with time travel needs to be removed, because I quite liked Voyage Home, Yesterday's Enterprise, and several others. But sometimes, I think it's used as a crutch to try and support a weak and feeble story. Just like how people who go back in time to desperately save the future forget that... you're in the past. You can go back further. Or go back to the future. The only reason you have to rush is because the writers want to create tension and a sense of foreboding, but you have literally all the time you could ever want. And you have the added advantage that you know exactly where the bad guys are coming from and when! Hell, that's the best recipe for an ambush I've ever heard. Whether it affects continuity or not, if you have the ability to go back and alter history, don't rush and potentially make things worse! Take your time, use however much you need, and make sure that when the enemy shows up, they face certain death.

I'm a huge fan of the movie Wing Commander. In it, an alien fleet captures a human navigation computer and uses it to make a run for Earth. The Earth fleet is heading there as fast as possible, but they need to know where the alien fleet is going to arrive, and when. They set up their battle line, and as the Kilrathii come through the jump point one at a time (I think it was because they couldn't calculate for multiple ships or something) they were met with the full firepower of a human battle fleet. Perfect ambush, given the situation. I'm not saying a similar situation would work in the case of Trek vs. Wars, but given that time travel gives these ships the option to set up situations like this, I'm surprised we've never seen it.

[Simon_Jester]

Now the Trekkie might say, why don't I do the same trick with ships using 24 th century technology. Say the slingshot around the sun. Invite a ship to come forward into the future and so on. With enough ships I can simply overwhelm the Empire's superior ships right? Just one problem. Its highly unlikely you will win without any loss of life what so ever, and hence casuality will be violated, because you can't bring the same ship back one minute after you took it into the future.

Even neglecting this problem, you have another one: command and control of that many ships is going to be a bitch.

There are universes which contain people with practice at coordinating million-ship fleets against extremely strong targets. Star Trek isn't one of them.

Ok, so lets try the same trick again. This time the original time traveller comes face to face with a time traveller from this new time line as he is about to uplift Archer's Federation. So now they gain 600-700 years advancement come the 24 th century when the Empire invades. Still losing the technological stakes here. So lets try it again. Wait. Just one problem. Eventually the technological gap would become too great that you just can't continue up lifting them. They would not understand the new scientific concepts. Its like trying to teach someone from the dark ages modern scientific knowledge.

Done iteratively this may very well actually be possible. The real hard limits you'll reach are those of infrastructure; the 22nd century humans of Archer's time can't build or breed fast enough to create what they'd need in time for it to matter.

Thus the most obvious recourse from using time travel, is to try and disrupt what ever technobabble wormhole connects the two universes before the Empire comes through, rather than try a straight up fight with the Empire which is doomed to fail.

Seconded.

[harbringer]

I honestly don't have a problem with time travel as such even in trek but you need to prove it only affects the current time stream which a lot of people have issues with and then you need to prove you can go back far enough to matter. Even then it's well just a cheat which says you can't win and if you can't win then why bother sliding things so far out of whack and not just accept it?. After all a naked storm trooper against the Ent E is just the same comparison - and lets be honest what would that tell you?. At the risk of this going to generic sci fi Doctor who isn't an issue as 1) it is pretty much proven he stays in the time line and 2) Daleks would cream SW without time travel. if you want to find out what would happen trek vs Daleks go to the sci fi forum.

[TheHammer]

The other big issue that tends to come up is the question of whether ST time travel really works (as in alters history), or whether it merely creates an alternate and/or parallel timeline. There is a lot of evidence to suggest so from within the Trek canon, but it's still considered fairly unconfirmed. It also may depend on the type of time travel used...

There is only two examples of time alteration resulting in a parallel universe being formed from a divergent track. 'Parallels' from TNG season seven, and the new Trek movie which is a reboot of the entire franchise (and the only reason why it's divergent is because nobody wants to see the original stuff expunged; AFAIC if it were consistent with the previous canon then it actually didn't create a divergent timeline but altered the existing one).

Actually the two examples you cited do not contradict what you've seen in other episodes. Rather they explain how the apparent paradoxes we see are able to exist. You are correct in that divergent time lines aren't "created" - they already exist. In a sense, "time travel" in trek does not exist - rather they shift into a parallel universe, some which are very closely related, others such as the mirror universe and the universe of yesterday's enterprise that are quite different.

Every single other example of time alteration affects the current continuum, to the point where the heroes are often portrayed as having to restore the balance through the plot - 'Tomorrow is Yesterday', 'City on the Edge of Forever' (Kirk and crew are only protected from McCoy's history-altering trip back thanks to the Guardian; otherwise their entire existence would have been irrevocably altered), 'Assignment: Earth', Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home, 'We'll Always Have Paris', 'Time Squared', the big one from TNG is 'Yesterday's Enterprise' where we see (from our perspective as the audience) the Enterprise alter and Guinan herself comments on how the ship feels 'wrong', and the character of Sela remains as a consequence of what happened. TNG's movie First Contact entire plot revolves around combating the Borg from altering Earth's past and the formation of the Federation (much like The Voyage Home). From DS9 they had a two-parter in the third season where Sisko goes back in time and has to masquerade as a historical figure, which obviously alters history from before their trip back to afterwards; an episode where O'Brien gets in some weird time loop which only affected his continuum, the TOS homage 'Troubles and Tribulations' where they accidentally go back and encounter the original Enterprise in time for its trip to Deep Space Station K-7, and the episode 'Children of Time', in which their Odo's decision to send them back to the present erases the entire colony's existence. I am sure there are more examples but by now you should be getting the idea.

Everytime you have a Trek univserse "time travel" event occur they actually shit from Universe "A" to Univserse "B" which exists in a different time in its cycle of development. When they "return" to their "own time" they are in fact returning to a Universe "C" which is extremely close to the one they left behind. Worf demonstrated this in the universe "parrallels". He disregarded certain small differences, but so much as changing so often for him that eventually he realized something was seriously wrong. This also explaisn why those individuals who "time travel" retain memories of certain things being "different". If they had in fact changed their own history then everything would have been exactly as they expected it to be. They wouldn't KNOW that they'd changed anything. Whatever technobabble excuse they come up with for how they were "protected from changes in the timeline" seems like more bullshit to me than to accept that they aren't in their original universe.

Virtually every example of time travel has repercussions for the timeline. I can't see how that's open to debate. Think about TVH and FC for one: two big budget movie blockbusters where the entire plot revolves around going back in time to save the future. If going back in time in actuality resulted in a divergent timeline being created, then the actions of the heroes would have made no difference at all - in either case, there would be divergent timelines where Kirk and co failed to bring back whales or didn't figure it out or whatever, and similarly with Picard and Data preventing the Borg from assimilating the Earth centuries before they were first encountered. You can say that about every example of time travel in Star Trek. If that were the case, none of these episodes would ultimately matter. Fuck Parallels. That whole 'quantum realities' thing is complete bullshit, it contradicts the rest of the canon, and it was written by Brannon Braga - the final nail in the coffin as far as I'm concerned

The TNG timeline you watched in season one is not the same one you watch in season seven. Nor has any single trek series covered a single universe. Hell, the finale of TNG "All Good things" show's an alternate future with a refit Enterprise D, rather than crashed in "Generations", and a "professor Data" who died in the last TNG movie.

The Episode "parallels" is the only thing that explains the numerous contradictions and paradoxes we witness in TNG. The series "Enterprise" would seem to be in a divergent universe itself. It doesn't contradict the canon. It makes it make sense...

So in answer to the original question, yes it is possible that "time travel" could help trek in some universe. However, the originating universe is still screwed. In fact, its screwed even more so since whatever resources and people they devoted to said "time travel" project would not be available to use in their own universe.

[Darth Tedious]

If you take First Contact in context with the rest of the canon, it most certainly did create an alternate timeline. In ST:TMP, we see a display of every ship to have ever borne the name Enterprise. The NX-01 isn't there. Zephram Cochrane wanteed his Warp 5 ship called Enterprise because he'd met the E-D, which hadn't happened in the original timeline (although, the idea that all of ENT was Riker's holodeck simulation counters this theory somewhat).

There is also the matter of VOY:'Endgame'. The only explanation for the complete lack of Grandfather Paradox we see is that Future Janeway came from an alternate timeline.

It has always been Paramount's canon policy that newer material overrules older material, so holding onto examples from TOS that are not contradicted, but explained by far more recent material is a little wishful.

[Stofsk]

The other big issue that tends to come up is the question of whether ST time travel really works (as in alters history), or whether it merely creates an alternate and/or parallel timeline. There is a lot of evidence to suggest so from within the Trek canon, but it's still considered fairly unconfirmed. It also may depend on the type of time travel used...

There is only two examples of time alteration resulting in a parallel universe being formed from a divergent track. 'Parallels' from TNG season seven, and the new Trek movie which is a reboot of the entire franchise (and the only reason why it's divergent is because nobody wants to see the original stuff expunged; AFAIC if it were consistent with the previous canon then it actually didn't create a divergent timeline but altered the existing one).

Actually the two examples you cited do not contradict what you've seen in other episodes. Rather they explain how the apparent paradoxes we see are able to exist. You are correct in that divergent time lines aren't "created" - they already exist. In a sense, "time travel" in trek does not exist - rather they shift into a parallel universe, some which are very closely related, others such as the mirror universe and the universe of yesterday's enterprise that are quite different.

This doesn't explain the multiple times where they've gone back into the past to save their present from something. I laid it out for you in my post.

Every single other example of time alteration affects the current continuum, to the point where the heroes are often portrayed as having to restore the balance through the plot - 'Tomorrow is Yesterday', 'City on the Edge of Forever' (Kirk and crew are only protected from McCoy's history-altering trip back thanks to the Guardian; otherwise their entire existence would have been irrevocably altered), 'Assignment: Earth', Star Trek IV: The Voyage Home, 'We'll Always Have Paris', 'Time Squared', the big one from TNG is 'Yesterday's Enterprise' where we see (from our perspective as the audience) the Enterprise alter and Guinan herself comments on how the ship feels 'wrong', and the character of Sela remains as a consequence of what happened. TNG's movie First Contact entire plot revolves around combating the Borg from altering Earth's past and the formation of the Federation (much like The Voyage Home). From DS9 they had a two-parter in the third season where Sisko goes back in time and has to masquerade as a historical figure, which obviously alters history from before their trip back to afterwards; an episode where O'Brien gets in some weird time loop which only affected his continuum, the TOS homage 'Troubles and Tribulations' where they accidentally go back and encounter the original Enterprise in time for its trip to Deep Space Station K-7, and the episode 'Children of Time', in which their Odo's decision to send them back to the present erases the entire colony's existence. I am sure there are more examples but by now you should be getting the idea.

Everytime you have a Trek univserse "time travel" event occur they actually shit from Universe "A" to Univserse "B" which exists in a different time in its cycle of development. When they "return" to their "own time" they are in fact returning to a Universe "C" which is extremely close to the one they left behind. Worf demonstrated this in the universe "parrallels". He disregarded certain small differences, but so much as changing so often for him that eventually he realized something was seriously wrong. This also explaisn why those individuals who "time travel" retain memories of certain things being "different". If they had in fact changed their own history then everything would have been exactly as they expected it to be. They wouldn't KNOW that they'd changed anything. Whatever technobabble excuse they come up with for how they were "protected from changes in the timeline" seems like more bullshit to me than to accept that they aren't in their original universe.

I left my quote intact because you didn't even address a single point I raised there with all my examples. You even complain about how individuals who time travel retain their memories, when if their history had been changed so to owould their recollections of it. Congratulations, that's actually the entire plot of 'Yesterday's Enterprise'. None of the characters, except for Guinan (who has really a vague feeling of disquiet about her surroundings, she didn't actually remember things being different she just intuitively knew it), could tell the difference. If 'Parallels' were correct, this wouldn't even be possible. Picard and Enterprise would have been unaltered by the Enterprise-C going through the temporal rift. The reality where the Klingons went to war with the Federation would have continued on. All the events of this episode would have been rendered entirely meaningless.

Similarly 'City on the Edge of Forever' would not have resulted in the Enterprise being wiped from existence by McCoy's intervention in history. The only reason Kirk and co weren't wiped out in the same fashion was because of the Guardian of Forever. If McCoy had simply shifted into a parallel universe, then the existing universe Kirk and co inhabited would not have been affected. They would not have been able to go back in time to fix things because nothing would have been broken! Except that contradicts the entire plot of the episode, and of 'Yesterday's Enterprise', and of 'Star Trek IV' and of 'First Contact' and DS9's 'Past Tense' and 'Children of Time' and every other time travel episode in Star Trek.

The TNG timeline you watched in season one is not the same one you watch in season seven. Nor has any single trek series covered a single universe. Hell, the finale of TNG "All Good things" show's an alternate future with a refit Enterprise D, rather than crashed in "Generations", and a "professor Data" who died in the last TNG movie.

The Episode "parallels" is the only thing that explains the numerous contradictions and paradoxes we witness in TNG. The series "Enterprise" would seem to be in a divergent universe itself. It doesn't contradict the canon. It makes it make sense...

No, it doesn't. If it did, it would mean every action the heroes have made in the previously cited episodes ultimately pointless.

If you take First Contact in context with the rest of the canon, it most certainly did create an alternate timeline. In ST:TMP, we see a display of every ship to have ever borne the name Enterprise. The NX-01 isn't there. Zephram Cochrane wanteed his Warp 5 ship called Enterprise because he'd met the E-D, which hadn't happened in the original timeline (although, the idea that all of ENT was Riker's holodeck simulation counters this theory somewhat).

If time travel caused an alternate time line to form, then the Enterprise-E wouldn't need to go back in time to stop the Borg at all. Their timeline wouldn't be affected, some other time line would be. That's clearly not the case, as Data could detect Earth through the 'temporal wake' and see that it had been assimilated.

Furthermore, just because things changed after the E-E went back and visited Zephram Cochrane, does not prove time travel is actually shifting to a parallel universe. If you go back in time and change things, you alter your time line. This has been the accepted state of affairs prior to, and even after Braga wrote that fucking episode.

Of course, you could say that TOS and TNG exist on different continuities so that explains the discrepancies and differences between the two shows - like how Zephram Cochrane is played by two different actors who look nothing alike, or why warp travel in TOS is much, much faster than in TNG.

There is also the matter of VOY:'Endgame'. The only explanation for the complete lack of Grandfather Paradox we see is that Future Janeway came from an alternate timeline.

Or maybe Voyager sucks.

It has always been Paramount's canon policy that newer material overrules older material, so holding onto examples from TOS that are not contradicted, but explained by far more recent material is a little wishful.

Um no? I have never heard that. All the TV shows and movies are canon.

[Baffalo]

If you take First Contact in context with the rest of the canon, it most certainly did create an alternate timeline. In ST:TMP, we see a display of every ship to have ever borne the name Enterprise. The NX-01 isn't there. Zephram Cochrane wanteed his Warp 5 ship called Enterprise because he'd met the E-D, which hadn't happened in the original timeline (although, the idea that all of ENT was Riker's holodeck simulation counters this theory somewhat).

If time travel caused an alternate time line to form, then the Enterprise-E wouldn't need to go back in time to stop the Borg at all. Their timeline wouldn't be affected, some other time line would be. That's clearly not the case, as Data could detect Earth through the 'temporal wake' and see that it had been assimilated.

Furthermore, just because things changed after the E-E went back and visited Zephram Cochrane, does not prove time travel is actually shifting to a parallel universe. If you go back in time and change things, you alter your time line. This has been the accepted state of affairs prior to, and even after Braga wrote that fucking episode.

Of course, you could say that TOS and TNG exist on different continuities so that explains the discrepancies and differences between the two shows - like how Zephram Cochrane is played by two different actors who look nothing alike, or why warp travel in TOS is much, much faster than in TNG.

I only feel like tackling this one right now so I shall. When I wrote my post detailing what would happen if First Contact was affected in the same manner as the latest movie, I said that the only reason the Enterprise E was even aware of the change on Earth was because they had breeched the fabric of the new universe. The second that Borg sphere went back in time, which it does before the Enterprise E even enters the Chronometric field, the entire Federation would've been wiped out before it ever existed if it had been the same universe. However, because the Enterprise E entered that field, they were suddenly in contact with a stream of particles from the past. That means that they entered the new universe with the Borg sphere. Had they avoided the chronometric particles, they would've remained safely within their own universe.

Like I said before, time travel in Star Trek is a convenient plot device and little else. They seem to treat it as a convenient way to add spice to the story without actually taking the time to consider the full implications of what's happening.

[Darth Tedious]

It has always been Paramount's canon policy that newer material overrules older material, so holding onto examples from TOS that are not contradicted, but explained by far more recent material is a little wishful.

Um no? I have never heard that. All the TV shows and movies are canon.

Start here on the main page with the Paula Block quotes that Mike Wong provided, and feel free to read up more in your own time if you like. Roddenberry says TNG overrules TOS. He also said TAS is non-canon, and disowned ST:V.

Saying that 'everything is canon in ST' is, quite frankly, retarded. There is far too much flat-out contradiction.
Example: ST:VI vs TNG. Worf could not have been an adult defending Kirk and McCoy at their trial if he was a child at the time of the Khittomer Massacre (or did he time travel to do it? )

There is also the matter of VOY:'Endgame'. The only explanation for the complete lack of Grandfather Paradox we see is that Future Janeway came from an alternate timeline.

Or maybe Voyager sucks.

Indeed it does, but sadly, that does not mean it can be ignored. If only Gene were alive to disown it... at least they threw out 'Threshold'.

The Episode "parallels" is the only thing that explains the numerous contradictions and paradoxes we witness in TNG. The series "Enterprise" would seem to be in a divergent universe itself. It doesn't contradict the canon. It makes it make sense...

No, it doesn't. If it did, it would mean every action the heroes have made in the previously cited episodes ultimately pointless.

That also sucks, but doesn't make the theory any less valid.

Of course, you could say that TOS and TNG exist on different continuities so that explains the discrepancies and differences between the two shows - like how Zephram Cochrane is played by two different actors who look nothing alike, or why warp travel in TOS is much, much faster than in TNG.

While workable, that tends to throw the whole concept of canon out the window. I actually think it would be really good for the purpose of Versus debates to have era-specific debating. Particularly since Hardcore TOS era would have far better chances than the Hippy Utopian TNG era.

I left my quote intact because you didn't even address a single point I raised there with all my examples. You even complain about how individuals who time travel retain their memories, when if their history had been changed so to owould their recollections of it. Congratulations, that's actually the entire plot of 'Yesterday's Enterprise'. None of the characters, except for Guinan (who has really a vague feeling of disquiet about her surroundings, she didn't actually remember things being different she just intuitively knew it), could tell the difference. If 'Parallels' were correct, this wouldn't even be possible. Picard and Enterprise would have been unaltered by the Enterprise-C going through the temporal rift. The reality where the Klingons went to war with the Federation would have continued on. All the events of this episode would have been rendered entirely meaningless.

Similarly 'City on the Edge of Forever' would not have resulted in the Enterprise being wiped from existence by McCoy's intervention in history. The only reason Kirk and co weren't wiped out in the same fashion was because of the Guardian of Forever. If McCoy had simply shifted into a parallel universe, then the existing universe Kirk and co inhabited would not have been affected. They would not have been able to go back in time to fix things because nothing would have been broken! Except that contradicts the entire plot of the episode, and of 'Yesterday's Enterprise', and of 'Star Trek IV' and of 'First Contact' and DS9's 'Past Tense' and 'Children of Time' and every other time travel episode in Star Trek.

Like I said before, time travel in Star Trek is a convenient plot device and little else. They seem to treat it as a convenient way to add spice to the story without actually taking the time to consider the full implications of what's happening.

I'll address both of these quotes together-

The theory I think fits best (clears almost all contradiction and doesn't require us to lose SoD) is that time travel varies depending on the method used, with some methods causing a shift in realities, while others produce 'true' history-altering time travel. I'm reasonably sure that this is internally consistant, though a thorough analysis could be in order. Is anyone keen to start an ST time travel analysis thread to discuss the matter?

[Stofsk]

Yeah but you can say that with my theory as well. By following the sphere in it's 'wake' it was protected by the changes it made to the time line, as opposed to your theory that they went into another universe. The problem with the latter though, is that it's a major plot point that the Borg went up to mischief in the past, which has destroyed their present, forcing Picard to go back in time to prevent what they did. He would be well aware of the multi-verse, quantum realities schtick from 'Parallels' so it's not like Picard was clueless to that theory. He could have gone 'oh well, sucks to be the denizens of that reality, let's reverse course and chill out with the rest of the fleet because our time line isn't affected.' Except he, uh, didn't do that.

[Darth Tedious]

Yeah but you can say that with my theory as well. By following the sphere in it's 'wake' it was protected by the changes it made to the time line, as opposed to your theory that they went into another universe. The problem with the latter though, is that it's a major plot point that the Borg went up to mischief in the past, which has destroyed their present, forcing Picard to go back in time to prevent what they did. He would be well aware of the multi-verse, quantum realities schtick from 'Parallels' so it's not like Picard was clueless to that theory. He could have gone 'oh well, sucks to be the denizens of that reality, let's reverse course and chill out with the rest of the fleet because our time line isn't affected.' Except he, uh, didn't do that.

He had just been in/was in the middle of a battle with the Borg (he tends to get a little tense when they're involved), and might not have been thinking clearly back to that one time when he encountered a quantum rift, or whatever they called it...

It wouldn't be the first time someone on the Big E didn't think back to 'that one time' or 'that one piece of obscure tech (that could have helped)'.

[Serafina]

Why are we assuming that the Federation is completely certain of the mechanics of time-travel? It's not like they are seasoned time-travelers, why should they have figured out temporal dynamics?

Additionally, while the Federation might only be capable of cross-alternate-universe time-travel, there might be the the theoretical (and observed) possibility of same-universe time-travel. Picard might have been afraid that the Borg are capable of it (even tough they are not) and wanted to be sure.


In general, a theory that gives the Federation access to cross-universe time-travel, but not to same-universe time-travel works pretty well. It explains all the instances we saw them utilizing time-travel without alien intervention, but it also explains the instances where we observed same-universe time-travel.
Same-universe time-travel would simply be more difficult - requiring precise calibration of some technobabbel or even completely different mechanics. Hence, the current Federation simply could have insufficiently advanced tech to do it, while several precursor-races, the Q and various natural phenomena could have access to it.

[Lord Helmet]

Why are we assuming that the Federation is completely certain of the mechanics of time-travel? It's not like they are seasoned time-travelers, why should they have figured out temporal dynamics?

I cannot remember the name of the episode but i am sure Kirk and crew were sent back in time in the Enterprise for simple historical reasearch in one episode so i think we can say they are reasonably familiar with the ability.

I remember that it is the one with Gary Seven in as he was very cool.

Additionally, while the Federation might only be capable of cross-alternate-universe time-travel, there might be the the theoretical (and observed) possibility of same-universe time-travel. Picard might have been afraid that the Borg are capable of it (even tough they are not) and wanted to be sure.


In general, a theory that gives the Federation access to cross-universe time-travel, but not to same-universe time-travel works pretty well. It explains all the instances we saw them utilizing time-travel without alien intervention, but it also explains the instances where we observed same-universe time-travel.
Same-universe time-travel would simply be more difficult - requiring precise calibration of some technobabbel or even completely different mechanics. Hence, the current Federation simply could have insufficiently advanced tech to do it, while several precursor-races, the Q and various natural phenomena could have access to it.

You lost me on this sorry.

[Baffalo]

Why are we assuming that the Federation is completely certain of the mechanics of time-travel? It's not like they are seasoned time-travelers, why should they have figured out temporal dynamics?

Additionally, while the Federation might only be capable of cross-alternate-universe time-travel, there might be the the theoretical (and observed) possibility of same-universe time-travel. Picard might have been afraid that the Borg are capable of it (even tough they are not) and wanted to be sure.


In general, a theory that gives the Federation access to cross-universe time-travel, but not to same-universe time-travel works pretty well. It explains all the instances we saw them utilizing time-travel without alien intervention, but it also explains the instances where we observed same-universe time-travel.
Same-universe time-travel would simply be more difficult - requiring precise calibration of some technobabbel or even completely different mechanics. Hence, the current Federation simply could have insufficiently advanced tech to do it, while several precursor-races, the Q and various natural phenomena could have access to it.

This might also explain why Q can achieve such 'magical' results. There is a theory that every single possible outcome, no matter how bizarre, actually happens. We just observe one possible outcome based on choice and random variables. I'll give you an example of how this works.

Let's say you wake up an hour before your alarm goes off. You feel rested, but you have the option of getting another hour of sleep. Let's say you go ahead and get up, and after getting dressed and ready, you look outside and see that your car has a flat tire. You have time to get it fixed with your spare and get to work in plenty of time, and because you got there on time, you were able to learn some information that will help you do your job better. However, had you gone back to bed, you'd wake up too late to fix your tire, and have to call in. This makes you late for work, and you end up getting there after the crucial information mentioned before gets said. This means that you have to work harder and it takes longer to get your next promotion. It's a cascading decision that has repercussions based merely on choice. And the idea is that every possible outcome is played out, so in one universe, you're already much further along in your career than another.

Now, most of us can understand most of the possible choices, but the theory goes on to say that literally anything is possible. In some universe, random probability says that you turned into a fish or an alien or even a block of cheese just reading this. The odds of this happening are so minute, there isn't a number to describe how random that is. But it can and in some universe, has happened. If Q can move between dimensions, it's possible for him to snap his fingers and relocate to a universe where the results that he wants have already happened. So it's not really magic, but rather his ability to move between dimensional realities and drag others with him.

[Lord Helmet]

This might also explain why Q can achieve such 'magical' results. There is a theory that every single possible outcome, no matter how bizarre, actually happens. We just observe one possible outcome based on choice and random variables. I'll give you an example of how this works.

Let's say you wake up an hour before your alarm goes off. You feel rested, but you have the option of getting another hour of sleep. Let's say you go ahead and get up, and after getting dressed and ready, you look outside and see that your car has a flat tire. You have time to get it fixed with your spare and get to work in plenty of time, and because you got there on time, you were able to learn some information that will help you do your job better. However, had you gone back to bed, you'd wake up too late to fix your tire, and have to call in. This makes you late for work, and you end up getting there after the crucial information mentioned before gets said. This means that you have to work harder and it takes longer to get your next promotion. It's a cascading decision that has repercussions based merely on choice. And the idea is that every possible outcome is played out, so in one universe, you're already much further along in your career than another.

Now, most of us can understand most of the possible choices, but the theory goes on to say that literally anything is possible. In some universe, random probability says that you turned into a fish or an alien or even a block of cheese just reading this. The odds of this happening are so minute, there isn't a number to describe how random that is. But it can and in some universe, has happened. If Q can move between dimensions, it's possible for him to snap his fingers and relocate to a universe where the results that he wants have already happened. So it's not really magic, but rather his ability to move between dimensional realities and drag others with him.

Your comment says "every possible outcome" and while i understand the idea your claim that anything is possible i do not agree with as a person cannot spontaneously turn into a fish or block of cheese ect so while it applies to what is possible it is also limited to what is possible as well.

[Simon_Jester]

Another problem with that is the butterfly effect. Suppose you, me, Picard, and Worf are in a room together.

I could, hypothetically, find a parallel universe in which Worf just turned into a fish, snap my fingers, and bring you along with me. But in this parallel universe, Picard won't be the same person as he was in the old one- he might (for instance) have hair. So by taking you to "OMG Worf just turned into a fish" universe, I have accidentally brought you into an "OMG Picard has hair!" universe. You will note the discrepancies, and this will have consequences.

The only way to beat this would be for Q to be able to perceive every conceivable universe, with a continuum of outcomes (every conceivable configuration of matter and energy has a corresponding parallel universe in which it exists), and find the one 'correct' universe out of the transfinite number of universes, flawlessly. He needs to find a universe where everything everywhere is exactly the same as it would be anyway (as in, the entire Federation is the same, except for Worf having just turned into a fish).

This requires him to find the needle in a much, much, much bigger, incalculably bigger, haystack.

It feels more elegant to assume Q really can turn Worf into a fish with the snap of his fingers.

[Serafina]

I was actually proposing that Q is capable of time-travel within THE SAME universe.
Other, less advanced species have less control about it and tend to land in parallel universes.

I made a quick diagram:

The thick, red stem is our main timeline, the one we and our heroes are familiar with.
The various black lines show convergent timelines and alternate universes.
The green lines denote how less-advances species can travel trough time - they can travel forwards and backwards, but do NOT land further down their own timeline.
Only the purple curve lands at a point further back from it's own timeline. That's possibly how Q and various other species can travel.


It actually makes sense that going back in your own timeline is harder than traveling to some other timeline. If you travel to some other timeline, you can NOT create paradoxes. If you kill the person who would be your own grandfather (let's call him grandfather B) in your own timeline while you are in another timeline, then you did not not kill the person who was actually your own grandfather (grandfather A). Sure, alternateYou never get's born, but you're still alive and well.
So in order to travel back into your own past, you'd need a way to deal with paradoxes. The Federation might just lack that.


Again, this explains why we can observe BOTH types of timetravel in the Star Trek continuity. IIRC, the Federation has never demonstrated a type of timetravel that clearly stayed in the same timeline than their own (correct me if i am wrong!). All such instances involved alien technology or natural phenomena.

It's also a perfect explanation why they do not bother with timetravel in order to save the day - because it generally will NOT save their own day. The only instances where it saved the day were cases where it involved bringing back stuff from the past (such as the whales Kirk brought back), where it's not about influencing your own timeline and altering your past.
And again, Picards intervention when the Borg traveled back into Earths past might simply have been his own fear that the Borg DO have sufficiently advanced technology to travel back in their own timeline.

[Metahive]

The only instances where it saved the day were cases where it involved bringing back stuff from the past (such as the whales Kirk brought back), where it's not about influencing your own timeline and altering your past.

Or keeping people in the past and uninformed of the future so as to not contaminate their timeline as in Tomorrow is Yesterday. That's the episode that introduced the "fling around the sun at warp speed to time travel" plot device that was reused in STIV BTW.

[Simon_Jester]

Re: Serafina

It's also possible to have a system where attempts to travel into your own past 'automatically' create a parallel timeline which is like yours... up to the point where time travellers from the future show up.

Suppose you and I wish to travel back in time and kill Hitler. We build the time machine and you send me back to 1911, while you, Serafina, remain in the present. In 1911, I kill Hitler. Now what?

There is one critical event that should be a source of parallel-universe creation here: whether or not I make it back to 1911. If our time machine succeeds, I change the past and (potentially) bring about conditions where we never built the thing in the first place. If our time machine fails, if I simply vanish into the ether or whatever, there is no change to the timeline: our time machine accomplishes nothing except "make Simon Jester disappear" as far as any outside observer is concerned.

But since this could go either way, we get both outcomes, in separate parallel timelines. In which case there's an easy way to resolve any possibility of a grandfather paradox.

So, you, Serafina, push the button and send me back in time. You never notice anything. You remain in a timeline where I never arrived, where Hitler survived and started World War Two on schedule, and where all the events that led us to launch our project happened as normal. As far as you or anyone else is concerned, that time machine is simply a machine for making Simon Jester disappear.

But I am stuck in a timeline where the machine worked, and a time traveller (me) arrived in 1911, and killed Hitler. In this timeline, butterfly effects virtually guarantee that no one recognizable as Serafina or Simon Jester will ever be born, and obviously no one will think it worthwhile to build a time machine to go back in time and kill a random Viennese painter shortly prior to World War One.

Our project still failed to change the past of the timeline that launched the project, even though it created a timeline which was changed through our action.

[Serafina]

Well, that's another alternative: You need more sophisticated technology to avoid creating an alternate timeline (and therefore universe) when you travel back to the past, and therefore to actually alter your own present.
Thanks for reminding me of that.

[Batman]

You can't travel back in time to alter your own past. If you could, that past would never have happened to begin with. If I go back in time to, say, murder Modern Talking before they become popular (just to get away from the usual kill Hitler scenario), it's a waste of time and effort because if I need to try to do so it means the mission already failed. The very existence of Modern Talking means I did not manage to kill them before they became popular.
The alternate/branching timeline theory, on the other hand, neatly explains all of Trek's time travel shenanigans.