The Galactic Empire versus The Borg and Species 8472

[Lord Falcon]

Hi! I'm knew here, so please be gentle.

Well, simply put, the purpose of this thread is to talk about who would win if the Galactic Empire fought both the Borg AND Species 8472. They don't necessarily have to be allies, and considering their history, I don't think they'd really work together anyway; they just have to be fighting the Empire at the same time. I put these two together to somewhat nullify the drastic differences in firepower, shields, numbers, and FTL between the STverse and the SWverse.

Let's say the Empire invades the ST. Before going after the smaller threats like the Romulans, the Federation, the Klingons or the Dominion, I think they'd first turn their attention to the big powers that can pack a punch. I read somewhere that the Borg more or less have 150,000 cubes and that Species 8472 have 70,000 bioships and didn't lose a single one in the Borg/Species 8472 war. I also read somewhere that the Empire has hundreds of millions of Star Destroyers... or was that fleets?? Anyway, that's a MAJOR difference compared to a few couple hundred thousand that both the Borg and Species 8472 both wield COMBINED. Then there is their obvious FTL advantage. But the Borg can use transwarp conduits to go places theoretically faster than any warp capable starship, even if it's not as fast as SW tech, and Species 8472 can open quantum singularities anywhere in the galaxy, so they should be on par with Imperial speed, if slower, but at least they're not as slow as the Federation.

But I'm just rehashing things that have already been said, so let get straight to the point: The only thing I see working in favor of the Borg/Species 8472 is that their bioships can destroy a planet within seconds, (we don't know how many of these types of ships they have; they could have hundreds, thousands that can destroy planets) and that the Borg can adapt. Yeah, I know, I subscribe to the "frequencies" theory too, but let's just say that the Borg study Imperial weapons and find a way to adapt to it, if not permanently then only for a short time.

Discuss.

(P.S.: Any and all comments given here will greatly help me in my own ST/SW crossover so please don't keep me waiting.)

[harbringer]

Ok ... well search will tell you what happens if the borg or species 8472 run into a star destroyer let alone fleets. Species 8472 was simply biological borg in some ways their main attraction is they can't be assimilated using old borg tech (note they can with the modified nanoprobes - correct me if Im wrong) the borg and species 8472 don't seem to be able to match the empire in any way really so pretty much curb stomp.

[Whiskey144]

harbinger nailed it on the head, though I'll note that the Empire has 25,000 ISDs, and that S8472 required a particular type of bioship to destroy a planet.

So your claim that any old bioship could torch a world is bungus.

[Big Phil]

Empire curbstomps the Borg and Species 8472 without breaking a sweat, then they assrape the rest of the Trek galaxy for shits and giggles.

The power disparity between Trek and Wars is pretty astonishing - the only thing that might slow down or prevent the Empire from winning is logistical limitations, and we don't really know what those are.

[Azron_Stoma]

The whole 8472 Blowing up a planet thing reminds me of SF Debris Opinionated Guide Review for Scorpion, where he mentions how the only way that could have been a planet would be if the Cubes were the size of India.

[Lord Falcon]

I didn't claim that ANY S-8472 bioship could blow up a planet, I only was referring to the type of emitter ship that forms in the center.

And this is just a hypothetical situation I was pondering.

[Serafina]

Okay, no matter which Trek-power (with the exception of beings like Q) you take, it'll get assraped by the Empire for three simple reasons: firepower, speed and size.

Some explanation:

Firepower: Star Wars ships just have way more firepower than Star Trek ships. It'd be like putting up an ancient galley with a few arrows against a modern battleship, except even worse. The disparity is so big that one-man SW-vessels might have equal firepower to ST-capital ships.
This also affects the durability of the ships - a Star Destroyer could get pounded by a ST-ship for days without even taking a scratch to it's paint, and could withstand the firepower of entire fleets.
All this is based on scientific calculations based on visual observations from the movies/TV-shows.

Speed: Star Wars ships can cross the galaxy in less than a single day to a few days (depending on the exact ship and route), while Federation ships need centuries and even the borg need months - except when using Transwarp conduits which have to be laid down in advance and can be destroyed.
This has one simple effect: Star Wars can concentrate all it's ships for a single attack without exposing any of it's territory - sure, the planet is undefended for a day or two, but Star Trek ships would need weeks to get there.
It'd be like fighting a war solely with infantry on foot vs. a modern-day army - except, you know, worse.

Size: The Empire has millions of planets and tens of thousands of capital ship (at least). They can also produce ships very fast, within weeks (the second Death Star was 2/3s finished in 6 months!). Every Star Trek power pales compared to that, even the Borg only had a few thousand systems.
This means that, in an all-out war, you'll be outnumber by a very huge margin.


So overall, it's like ancient Greece (or someone else from that era) trying to fight the modern United States - you're outnumbered, outmaneuvered and outgunned. A few nifty tricks won't do you any good, you'll get curbstomped either way.

[Connor MacLeod]

We don't really even know how large Species 8472 is, so we can't say how powerful or deadly it is (nevermind the fluidic space issues). The Borg are only ever hinted at size wise, and there is disagreement over the context of what we do know (EG Chakotay's "millions of ships" comment or however its phrased.)

[Eternal_Freedom]

I think there could be a very easy solution to S8472. We know fluidic space is some weird ass giant soup of matter, and we know the Galaxy Gun works on a chain reaction method in the matter of the target.

So what if the Empire fires a bunch of Galaxy Gun misiles into fluidic space? Would that wipe them all out?

[Batman]

My guess would be 'insufficient data'. While the Galaxy Gun does work on a chain reaction, and a highly adjustable one, it is to my knowledge not an infinitely adjustable one. Empty space isn't really empty, it's just that matter is really really sparse. Yet the Galaxy Gun doesn't seem to affect anything beyond the planetary level (i.e. no killing entire star systems with a single missile). Since we have no bloody idea why that is the case (does the chain reaction need a certain matter density to proceed? Is there an upper limit on how far it can propagate/how much matter/volume it can consume before it breaks down, is it actually an intentional limit, etc) there's just no way to say.

[Serafina]

Well, if it is a self-propagating chain reaction, then it should work as long as the conditions to sustain that chain reaction are met. A nuclear chain reaction can go on as long as it has a critical mass and is only limited by that factor, if you could somehow create an infinitely large critical mass it would be an infinitely large chain reaction as well.
The same would go for the Galaxy Gun missiles. The main question should be "does fluid space have the right properties for the chain reaction to occur in the first place". If that is the case, and assuming that it is uniform, then it would destroy the entirety of it.

Well, it is also possible that it is not a self-propagating reaction, but rather a non-sustainable chain reaction where some form of catalyst or intermediary is necessary to uphold the reaction. Trek phasers are a possible example, that chain reaction apparently does not produce new nadion particles in a sufficient amount, so you are limited by the initial charge. A non-critical nuclear mass would be real-life example.
If it works via that mechanism, then the missile could only contain a finite amount of that catalyst and could therfore not destroy the entirety of fluid space.


So we've to two questions:
-Does the chain reaction need a form of catalyst that can only be provided in finite amounts.
-Does fluid space have the right properties to be affected by the chain reaction

Now we can't really answer the second question because we do not know a lot about the chain reaction and next-to-nothing about fluid space. Then again, the reaction supposedly works on air and water, so i would got with a "yes, most likely".
However, the first question must obviously be answered with a YES, otherwise it would be impossible to scale down the galaxy gun to anything less than planetary destruction, yet we know that it can destroy individual cities. This is obviously because it releases some kind of energy that causes a chain reaction that does not produce more of that energy than it consumes - so you can release the right amount to destroy the target, and not enough to destroy more than that. If it was a self-propagating reaction, it would consume everything as long as the conditions are right, which would mean the entire planet (a city is not that different from the rest of the planet).
Therefore, the a single galaxy gun missile can not destroy the entirety of fluid space, since it won't contain enough reaction trigger to do so. Still a devastating weapon tough.

[Lord Falcon]

I apologize if I offended anyone. I know the Empire has a vastly superior advantage over ST, that's why I said this is a hypothetical situation and I greatly scaled up the powers of the ST by having both the Borg AND S-8472 fighting at the same time while doing it. Still, the only advantage I can see S-8472 possessing is the ability to destroy planets, as I mentioned. They could wait till the Empire constructs bases on conquered worlds, then swoop by and destroy them. Assuming they don't get torn apart by sentry ISDs first and that the Empire can't attack fluidic space in a preemptive strike.

[harbringer]

At the present you can safely say you haven't offended anyone - contrary to popular belief we don't tar and feather you for liking trek. What might piss people off is if you come up with pointless or endless arguments, if your in doubt try the search to see if something has been done before. As long as you can really back up what your saying no one here will have a problem. So far everyone has played nice for the reason your new and show some promise, in other words you don't seem to be a moron. However disobey the rules or general common sense and you will probably end up verbally tarred feathered drawn and quartered. Make sure you read all the information on the site if you haven't already since Mike is really good with his points, arguments and the clarity of his writing - or in other words he makes sense so it is easier to see where your working from. So here is to us for being nice and I hope you find the answers you are looking for.

[seanrobertson]

The whole 8472 Blowing up a planet thing reminds me of SF Debris Opinionated Guide Review for Scorpion, where he mentions how the only way that could have been a planet would be if the Cubes were the size of India.

In all fairness, I doubt Chuck was entirely serious on that point, for any number of reasons:

*Camera lenses can make distant objects look much smaller than they actually are
*The cubes were FAR closer to the camera than the planet
*The body in question was spheroid which, unless it is an artificial construct, places a lower-limit on its probable size. As far as I know, the smallest spherical body in our system is Mimas (<400 km in diameter).

Better yet ...

*This body obviously had [img=http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... on1295.jpg]an atmosphere[/img]. I could research the matter further still, but I'm certain that requires at least an order of magnitude greater diameter. I mean, the fucking MOON is almost 10 times as wide as Mimas, and Luna is almost entirely bereft of an atmosphere.

The next-to-best part ...

*We see a patchwork of Borg junk on the surface, suggesting drones reside there. Per "First Contact," we know drones operate ideally given certain atmospheric conditions -- conditions which would be impossible if this object was but a few hundred kilometers wide.

And the real kicker?

In "Scorpion Pt. II," when the Collective orders Seven to take the Voyager into fluidic space, they also give her a quick sit-rep, mentioning that eight planets had been destroyed.

Are we to assume all of these "planets" are little tiny facsimiles thereof?

No.

The Eights' planet-popping ability clearly involves a chain-reaction, yes. Their ships are vulnerable to Borg weaponry (probably to the point of being destroyed; the ship in "Prey" was sure wounded enough by Borg pew-pews), so, yeah, the bioships wouldn't stand up to the might of an ISD for very long. (As tiny as those bioships are, I rather doubt the heavy guns could track them, and I also don't buy the idea that a couple of shots from the point-defense guns would necessarily take them out. Of course, there's a supreme difference between a "couple of shots" and several dozen .)

The Collective and Eights' might combined wouldn't make a huge difference against any sizable Imperial invasion force. The only realistic option for repelling a small Imperial expeditionary force is to have the Eights go crazy and attack said force with everything they have. THAT might be interesting IMNSHO, but it'd also require that the Eights not flee at the first sign that they'd a bloody nose -- that is, as they did in Scorpion pt. II.

[Panzersharkcat]

To give you a quick look at the vast differences in size and firepower between Trek and Wars, take a look at this chart. Even if you ignore the Executor, which is the biggest thing on that chart and is itself dwarfed by the Death Star, you can get a pretty good idea of how a fight between Trek ships and Wars ships will go.

[Lord Falcon]

Yeah, I know the Empire's superior. The question is how badly would they hurt them before being defeated. If Species 8472 could destroy Coruscant and the Emperor, the same thing that enabled the Rebels to take over would work in their favor; the Empire would fall into warlordism and infighting and they could strike out at the remaining factions. Whereas I can see S-8472 being tactically minded enough to do this, I can't see the Borg doing this as they assimilate what they don't understand. I also learned something: The Empire only has 25,000 Star Destroyers. Can anyone confirm this?

Overall, this is only for a fanfic I am writing, and I am attempting to keep it as realistic as possible according to Lord Wong's numbers and calculations (yes I've seen them).

[Metahive]

Considering that both Borg and 8472 would represent a hostile "other", even in the case of killing Palpatine and destroying Coruscant (somehow), the Empire might not fall apart as it did in canon. It might even serve as a fanal to unite against the alien agressors. Do not underestimate the power of xenophobia.

[Darth Tedious]

25,000 ISDs is the generally accepted number, yeah. I'm not sure if anyone has numbers for the Victory Class Destroyers and other ships, though.

[Batman]

25,000 is the number the Empire can't possibly have less than. Their industrial capacity can give them a lot more than that in theory, but frankly, since a single ISD can pretty much ignore anything the Borg or Species8472 can throw at them, I think 25,000 is plenty to fend off anything those guys might try with negligible if any losses, and that's ignoring the rest of the Imperial Navy and stationary defenses.

[Lord Falcon]

Metahive: The Empire sure didn't unite as one and fight back when the Rebels killed Palpatine and destroyed the second Death Star. No offense, but it's my observation that the Empire is totally dependent on Palpatine (because he thought he could rule forever in a clone body but I digress), and without him, they had no clear direction. I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm just pointing out things.

I think IF S-8472 killed Palpatine on Coruscant early on, it would proceed like the Rebels did after Endor. Unless of course Thrawn reappeared several years later. Ooh, that brings up an interesting question. How would Thrawn conduct a war with the Borg and Species 8472?

[Metahive]

Did you just completely ignore what I said just to repeat your assertion? I just told you why the Rebels killing Palpatine and alien invaders killing Palpatine would be two different kettle of fish, how about you deal with my argument instead of ignoring it?

[Lord Falcon]

Um........ I don't get it.

You know what, forget it. This thread was only for theories for my fanfic. I apologize for any inconvenience I caused.

[Metahive]

What's there not to get? I said getting toppled by an internal revolt is different from getting killed by alien invaders. They represent an "other" that will likely trigger the xenophobic instincts of the Empire and cause any internal quarrels to be postponed until the threat of the "other" is removed. Compare it to Afghanistan fighting against the Soviets.

[Serafina]

Let's use a real-world analogy:

Suppose parts of the Wehrmacht start an open rebellion and manage to kill Hitler during (or better yet, before) World War II.
Compare that to russian (or whatever) spies blowing up half of Berlin to kill Hitler.

The two situations are not even REMOTELY comparable.
When the Rebels managed to kill Palpatine, they had support by imperial citizens and even entire imperial worlds. They could build upon the ruins of the Republic and use it as a foundation to restore power.
Any Star Trek power would have NOTHING of that. They'd be an external force that just killed the Empires leader, and possibly plenty of it's citizens.

Now, you could assume that the Rebels would take over even when Palpatine was killed by an external enemy. However, said enemy makes for an EXCELLENT rallying point. "They can strike anywhere they want. They killed trillions without warning. They want to burn you all alive!".
That could be enough to maintain the Empire (until Palpatine comes back, which he also did canonically). Even if it doesn't, it'll certainly last long enough to crush some genocidal bugs. The Rebels won't be very popular if they say "ignore those mass-murderers, let's fight amongst ourselves!".

[Lord Falcon]

Ah ok I get it now. Thank you all. This is going to come in very handy.