In charge defand the Romulan Empire Star War Empire

[JasonB]

Star War Empire has decide in interest phase cloaking device have some work to build Star war cloaking device. Sector 31 and Star War Empire made agreement force Romulan Star Empire change one part treaty Treaty of Algeron to allow UFP operation and build cloaking device. Return Sector 31 work Empire build phase cloaking device with star war cloaking technology. Romulan Star Empire ready war you in-charge battle plans.

Mod translation:

The Empire, from Star Wars, has decided for no good fucking reason to try to replicate the Trek phase cloak. A bunch of rich Coruscant frat boys from an engineering college get bored one day, so they use their superior civilian military technology to give various Trek powers the freedom to do whatever the hell they want to with said device. Then the frat boys watch from a distance to see what happens, while playing a drinking game called, "Take a shot whenever one of those other ships accidentally materializes inside something solid".

--Lagmonster

[Darth Tedious]

A double-blind phase cloak! Wouldn't your ship just totally disappear?

[Big Phil]

Game Romulans = non-human

Death Star Empire destroy all planets Romulan with

Over

[Metahive]

SW cloaking devices have the glaring flaw that you can track their magnetic signatures through the cloak if you managed to scan the ship beforehand so why you'd want to give the Federation a weakness already known the the enemy is beyond me.

Meanwhile ST phase-cloaking is beaten by floors as prominent examples (eg The Next Phase) show. The Empire wins by having people stand on the missiles for a few seconds so they can be counted as floors and therefore phase-cloak proof before locking onto the magnetic signature and firing them at the Federation ships . Boom boom win.

[Batman]

There's no such thing as 'the' Star Wars cloaking device. The one Anakin used in TCW had the magnetic signature vulnerability. The one Thrawn/Disra used had the double blind problem. IIRC as per the TPM novel Darth Maul's fighter had a cloak so we have three different cloaking technologies. As per ESB there may be a fourth, as at least the Maul fighter cloak is not too bulky for a YT-1300 yet 'no ship that small has a cloaking device.'
And I'm getting tired of the phase cloak wanking. Not only don't they have it, the limits of the technology are completely undetermined. Especially as Trek as is already shows that, yes, phased objects most definitely do interact with the unphased universe. Phased people being able to see means they interact with unphased photons. Them being able to breathe means they're interacting with unphased air. Was the E-D blind when phased? No? Then I am very much afraid she interacted with unphased EM radiation, too.
Burden of proof to show that phase cloaked objects can phase through anything other than what we see them phase through, or are unaffected by any energy levels other than the one we see them unaffected by, is on the party claiming they can and are.
I also don't think we have any evidence of Trek phase cloak being able to phase through shields, period, though if I'm wrong feel free to correct me.

[Darth Tedious]

Especially as Trek as is already shows that, yes, phased objects most definitely do interact with the unphased universe. Phased people being able to see means they interact with unphased photons. Them being able to breathe means they're interacting with unphased air. Was the E-D blind when phased? No? Then I am very much afraid she interacted with unphased EM radiation, too.

But that's exactly it, Batman! The double-blind phase-cloak would solve all of these problems! Of course, you'd have absolutely no way of knowing where in the universe you were, but who cares about minor bugs like that? A real, 100% working phase-cloak!

[Metahive]

There's no such thing as 'the' Star Wars cloaking device.

I took the one that made the highest canon appearance (as in we actually saw it in action on screen).

And I'm getting tired of the phase cloak wanking. Not only don't they have it, the limits of the technology are completely undetermined. Especially as Trek as is already shows that, yes, phased objects most definitely do interact with the unphased universe. Phased people being able to see means they interact with unphased photons. Them being able to breathe means they're interacting with unphased air. Was the E-D blind when phased? No? Then I am very much afraid she interacted with unphased EM radiation, too.

No argument from me, hence me jokingly proposing to have the missiles be declared "floors" to "beat" the phase-cloak. Its limits are arbitrary and wholly dependant on the writer's mood anyway.

[Sela]

@Batman:

Actually, this is an interesting point to those of us who haven't already analyzed the sucker to death . What exactly do we know about phase-shield capabilities?

To ground an analysis, lets say we make the following probably-reasonable assumptions:
1.) While running, the prototype seen in "Pegasus" was working as intended (this wouldn't include the whole overload/crash thing).
2.) The Romulan project to develop a phase-cloak ("The Next Phase") was working as intended in terms of effects - though was obviously, again, not stable and thus nearly caused the ship to asplode.

and lastly, the most arguable:
3.) Geordi, Ro, their clothes, the one Romulan guy, and his Phaser were all "phasing" in ("The Next Phase") the same way that we would expect a ship to.

I think the third is arguable, as phasing an individual in the manner we saw was very clearly an un-intended side effect, and thus there's really no reason we *must* accept the same limitations/features must apply to the ships.



OKAY - based on assumption 1.

* We know the UFP cloak allows you to move through solid rock/granite (asteroids).
* We know that - at least in the ad hoc installed, unrefined, prototype - that prolonged phasing through such material puts a strain on the ship's systems.
* We get a nice view of what the phase-cloaked ship looks like, and there is zero visual distortion when seeing through it (unlike certain Bird-of-Prey 'classic' cloaks).

Assumption 2 gives us almost no new information at all, as we only ever see the ship with the cloak offline post-distress call. We have Geordi's dialogue - "Theoretically such a ship could hide anywhere" and "conventional weapons would be useless against it". In short - either Geordi is woefully misunderstanding Federation research, or the *point* of a phase-cloak is to be able to avoid weapon fire. This, of course, does not prove that they ever achieved such a capability.

Assumption 3 brings up lots of problematic stuff -which I'll go into separately.
However, we still have two clear points that need to be made. Firstly, we witness phaser-weapon fire going THROUGH the ship, though we do not see it continuing out into space. Secondly, we witness the phaser-on-overload dealing zero damage to the ship. Third, we witness the Romulan moving through the wall of the ship, through the Enterprise's shields, out into the vacuum of space. All of this seems to support Geordi's sentiment that phased ships would be invulnerable to conventional weaponry.

[Batman]

@Batman:
* We know the UFP cloak allows you to move through solid rock/granite (asteroids).

And that's it. We have no idea whether or not it can phase through anything else at all, what the energy expenditure to do so would be if it can, what stress that would put on the ship doing so, etc.

* We know that - at least in the ad hoc installed, unrefined, prototype - that prolonged phasing through such material puts a strain on the ship's systems.
* We get a nice view of what the phase-cloaked ship looks like, and there is zero visual distortion when seeing through it (unlike certain Bird-of-Prey 'classic' cloaks).

Which means the ship is invisible to the naked eye from the outside, nothing more.

Assumption 2 gives us almost no new information at all, as we only ever see the ship with the cloak offline post-distress call. We have Geordi's dialogue - "Theoretically such a ship could hide anywhere" and "conventional weapons would be useless against it". In short - either Geordi is woefully misunderstanding Federation research,

And we all know TNG+ characters never say stuff that is flat out wrong despite allegedly being experts on the topic they're commenting on,

However, we still have two clear points that need to be made. Firstly, we witness phaser-weapon fire going THROUGH the ship, though we do not see it continuing out into space.

Which means maybe-MT level technobabble phasers won't harm a phase-cloaked ship.

Secondly, we witness the phaser-on-overload dealing zero damage to the ship.

Which means a clearly established in the franchise to be single figure MJ phased weapon doing so didn't.

Third, we witness the Romulan moving through the wall of the ship, through the Enterprise's shields, out into the vacuum of space. All of this seems to support Geordi's sentiment that phased ships would be invulnerable to conventional weaponry.

No limits fallacy.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Of course, this cloak works the other way too in that any weapons fire from the cloaked ship (assuming it can fire at all given most ships cannot fire while cloaked) is just as likely to pass through its target as any incoming fire is, meaning the ship will have to decloak to take any offensive action.

[Sela]

@Batman:
1.) While dialogue is obviously poor evidence of actual capabilities, it is *excellent* evidence to try and elucidate intent. If we allow for the natural degree of "I vaguely recall X" that was doubtlessly going on as well as the fact that people make mistakes, all we need take away is that the *intended* use of a phase-cloak is to hide anywhere and avoid conventional weapons-fire. Period. As I already have stated, this in no way suggests they've achieved it and is obviously an inferior form of evidence to actual visual proof. If you disagree with Geordi's statement, then what do YOU think a phase-cloak is supposed to do, wehther it actually can or can't pull it off? What do you base this on? And why shouldn't we believe Geordi's statement. Sure, it's dialgoue and he could be wrong, but as we've got nothing else to go on and no reason whatsoever to believe he is wrong I say we accept it.
Again, as I said before, this says nothing about whether or not they ever pulled off what the project's goal was.

2.) I'm not guilty of a no-limits fallacy. The fact that phaser-on-overload had zero visual effect on the surrounding ship strongly suggests that the prototype was not affected by conventional weaponry. Again, that is a VERY limited scope of weaponry, and again it is not proof - merely extrapolation. If I'd said, "Therefore, phase cloaks have demonstrated the ability to nullify the effectiveness of all conventional weaponry", then you could trot out your 'no limits' fallacy accusation. Given the way I'd dealt with the ship-through-granite I'd hope it's clear that I'm not typically the type to ignore this concept.
What I'm doing is all we can do: Make our best estimations based on what we actually see and know the device to be capable of. Starting with what we can be 100% sure of (a GCS using a protoype phase cloak can indeed pass through a granite asteroid) and then ending with what we have to merely extrapolate and cannot be sure of.



Separate from that, what would the expected effects of a vacuum be on the human body? From my best understanding, there would be a very visual 'explosion' of any closed internal compartments with any air pressure at all, no? If a human was suddenly transported into space, wouldn't we be able to immediately see massive physical changes in outward appearance? Because in that same episode, the Romulan was shoved well beyond the confines of the Enterprise's life support system and (while i'll have to re-watch it) I don't recall seeing any change in his overall appearance. In fact, I vaguely recall him actually changing his expression as though he were very much alive and physically comfortable rather than suffering massive diffuse hemorrhages, bone/internal organ rupture, or even just plain choking/gasping for air.

[Batman]

@Batman:
1.) While dialogue is obviously poor evidence of actual capabilities, it is *excellent* evidence to try and elucidate intent. If we allow for the natural degree of "I vaguely recall X" that was doubtlessly going on as well as the fact that people make mistakes, all we need take away is that the *intended* use of a phase-cloak is to hide anywhere and avoid conventional weapons-fire. Period. As I already have stated, this in no way suggests they've achieved it and is obviously an inferior form of evidence to actual visual proof. If you disagree with Geordi's statement, then what do YOU think a phase-cloak is supposed to do, wehther it actually can or can't pull it off? What do you base this on? And why shouldn't we believe Geordi's statement. Sure, it's dialgoue and he could be wrong, but as we've got nothing else to go on and no reason whatsoever to believe he is wrong I say we accept it.
Again, as I said before, this says nothing about whether or not they ever pulled off what the project's goal was.

Then why bring it up to begin with? What matters is what we know the cloak can do, not was it was intended or expected to be capable of.

2.) I'm not guilty of a no-limits fallacy. The fact that phaser-on-overload had zero visual effect on the surrounding ship strongly suggests that the prototype was not affected by conventional weaponry. Again, that is a VERY limited scope of weaponry, and again it is not proof - merely extrapolation. If I'd said, "Therefore, phase cloaks have demonstrated the ability to nullify the effectiveness of all conventional weaponry", then you could trot out your 'no limits' fallacy accusation. Given the way I'd dealt with the ship-through-granite I'd hope it's clear that I'm not typically the type to ignore this concept.
What I'm doing is all we can do: Make our best estimations based on what we actually see and know the device to be capable of. Starting with what we can be 100% sure of (a GCS using a protoype phase cloak can indeed pass through a granite asteroid) and then ending with what we have to merely extrapolate and cannot be sure of.

Very well, I apologize for the accusation. However, since you apparently are aware that this is essentially idle speculation on what the phase cloak might be capable of/was supposed/expected/intended to be capable of, why bring it up in the first place?

Separate from that, what would the expected effects of a vacuum be on the human body? From my best understanding, there would be a very visual 'explosion' of any closed internal compartments with any air pressure at all, no?

Given that the pressure differential is one measly atmosphere, I seriously doubt that.

If a human was suddenly transported into space, wouldn't we be able to immediately see massive physical changes in outward appearance?

Again, no. Hollywood has massively overstated the effects of exposure to vacuum ever since they had the technology to show it. What you might see is some burst blood vessels close under the skin (face, eyes, nose, primarily) and I'm not even sure about that. Humans routinely survive pressure differentials much worse than that when diving without injuries. The diving depth you need to go to to get the same pressure differential, only the other way round, is...10 metres.

Because in that same episode, the Romulan was shoved well beyond the confines of the Enterprise's life support system and (while i'll have to re-watch it) I don't recall seeing any change in his overall appearance. In fact, I vaguely recall him actually changing his expression as though he were very much alive and physically comfortable rather than suffering massive diffuse hemorrhages, bone/internal organ rupture, or even just plain choking/gasping for air.

That was as it should be, possibly excepting the no gasping for air thing. What'll kill you in space is lack of oxigen (or if you have a breathing apparatus but no proper space suit, radiation or, eventually, freezing). No exploding organs I'm afraid.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

In DS9 this myth is perpetuated- in the episode "Waltz", Dukat said this:

When I was a newly minted glinn on the Kornaire, I once had to help clean up a compartment where three men had gone through an explosive decompression. I didn't sleep for a week after that.

On the other hand, when Lt. Branson was killed when the bridge of the Enterprise was hit in "Nemesis", he was blown out into space without suffering any visible trauma:

Link

[Sela]

However, since you apparently are aware that this is essentially idle speculation on what the phase cloak might be capable of/was supposed/expected/intended to be capable of, why bring it up in the first place?

I'm following in the footsteps of Darth Wong. On the main site he frequently opens with what we can be sure of, then what calculations (if any) can be derived, and then speculation as to the probable reason/intent, etc. I can quote examples if you'd like. At the same time, though, I can see how only the first part of this addresses your point that "What do we know phase-cloaks can do anyway"; consider it a tangent, then . My bad for not being more clear. Us newer-generation SDN'ers haven't had the luxury of literally *years* of debunking and analyzing these claims. This is the first or second time I've ever analyzed the evidence on the phase-cloak and to me it's every bit as exciting; sorry to get ahead of myself.

...what would the expected effects of a vacuum be on the human body?...

Hollywood has massively overstated the effects of exposure to vacuum ever since they had the technology to show it. What you might see is some burst blood vessels close under the skin (face, eyes, nose, primarily) and I'm not even sure about that. Humans routinely survive pressure differentials much worse than that when diving without injuries. The diving depth you need to go to to get the same pressure differential, only the other way round, is...10 metres.

Very cool, I hadn't thought of it that way. So it's not a matter of "something" pushing against "nothing", but rather the membranes of the body provide their own resistance. Maybe you'd balloon out a little on the more superficial compartments; and your ears probably will pop like on an airplane; or far worse than on an airplane, but it's not gonna be a full-body explosion. Thanks for the info.