You are captain of a cloaked Romulan Warbird

[TheHammer]

A single Imperial Star destroyer (Imperator class), has laid siege to one of your planets with a major science facility. It does not have GCT sensors, however it is aware of the potential of cloaked enemy ships and has its shields raised and is on full alert. In addition, tie fighters are running routine patrols in anticipation of a potential attack.

The ground invasion has not been launched yet, but you anticipate it will be soon. Expectations are that it will be an all out invasion force intent on capturing as much of the facility intact as possible and should involve the a large number of the storm troopers on board the ISD.

Your vessel is a D'deridex-class, and is fully functional. Your mission is to destory this ISD through any means at your disposal. How will you accomplish this mission?

[lord Martiya]

Self destruction with the black hole powering it: if the Elements are graceful, I'll take the ISD down with me.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Well with the shields up the Warbird cannot destroy the ISD through brute force- has the facility itself been evacuated? Also, does the Warbird carry any shuttles that have cloaking devices?

[Batman]

Given that D'Deridexes are only about on par with Galaxies, that artificial quantum singularity of theirs can't be something to brag about.
Sure, we're talking spontaneous uncontrolled total release vs ordinary every-day operations, but we're also talking upwards of six orders of magnitude difference in power generation, shield resilience etc. Not that I have a better idea, mind-my proposal would have been to Warp ram and hope something technobabbly and disastrous happens to the ISD as calling on Q only ever worked for Picard (that being the only option that immediately comes to mind that gives me a reasonable chance of success).

[bilateralrope]

My first thought is to try and convince them to bring my ship inside the Start Destroyer somehow. Possibly with a 'surrender', though I have no idea what will work. I'm also not sure if it will fit. Once inside, self-destruct and hope it takes out the Star Destroyer. How many ways of this going wrong have I missed ?

[Eleventh Century Remnant]

Indirectly. As far as I can calc it, an Imperator-class simply does not have the space-to-surface lift for all its' troop complement. There will be shuttle runs of dropships, and I only need one- for a first attempt, at least.

The mechanics are simple enough; how to do it without getting rumbled is the hard part. Monitor the first run, looking for things like signals traffic, security procedure- patterns that can be used.

Wait for a dropship to finish unloading, for the ground forces to be released, then beam down a strike team. Try to do this noiselessly, with the blade if at all possible rather than disruptors. If successful, beam down something else; as many photon torpedoes or antimatter demolition charges as the strike team can load aboard the Imperial dropship without it taking a suspicious amount of time. Maybe only one or two, which is fine as long as they're big enough.

I think you can figure out where this is going by now...biggest and most obvious problems so far; how long do Imperial dropships just hang around after dropping off their complement? In a full drop, not long, I'd bet. Might have to wait for the last lift, or for some kind of mechanical failure to leave one beached for a while.

Next obvious problem; jamming may prevent the use of transporters. If this is so and the area is merely local around the facility, beam down outside the zone and go in on foot, try to approach and ambush a dropship the old fashioned way. If the zone is hundreds or thousands of kilometres across, crap, back to plan B.

If some variant of the above works, though, fly casual on way to Star Destroyer, give good approximations of previously scanned and recorded data- try to reproduce the codes, for a start- hopefully land, detonate mines for the greater glory of the Romulan Empire, salute the brave martyrs. Might only blow out the hangar bay, but it'll do for a beginning.

Evil sneaky subplan; if there has been enough contact to do any medical research, then a smuggled bioweapon released once on board would probably be more effective, get the ship through the weakest point, the crew. Probably less obvious on scanners than an antimatter mine, at that.

Good traffic control alert for deviations from pattern, and TIEs or the ship itself scanning each returning dropship, could rumble this plan. Might be necessary to do something else as a distraction- hopefully something that does not endanger the warbird- to create some chaos to give it a chance. An attack by armed shuttles, maybe, that could short- circuit normal security procedure- get them down, get them on board now, that kind of reaction.


Failing that, sneak in really, really close and do a Han Solo- sneal a cloaked shuttle in to lock on to the back of the bridge tower. Remember those limpet mines?

[Batman]

My first thought is to try and convince them to bring my ship inside the Start Destroyer somehow. Possibly with a 'surrender', though I have no idea what will work. I'm also not sure if it will fit. Once inside, self-destruct and hope it takes out the Star Destroyer. How many ways of this going wrong have I missed ?

Well for starters there's the problem of the Warbird having roughly the same dimensions as the Star Destroyer (in fact it's probably quite a bit wider) so the hangar might be the tiniest bit too small for that.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Simplest plan I can think of is to have one of these:

Romulan Shuttle

Stuff it with either conventional explosives or plasma torpedo warheads, cloak it, then have it follow one of the Tie fighters or other craft as it comes in to dock with the destroyer, get into the hangar bay, and detonate. It might take some timing if the ship has hangar shields, and it would depend on the ship not being able to detect the cloaked shuttle. Of course you'd need to sacrifice a pilot or fly it on remote, though the Imperials might detect the signals given the bandwidth you'd need to control it well enough to pull off the kinds of manoeuvres needed to get it into the launch bay.

[Darth Tedious]

It really all depends if the ISD has CGTs or not. If it does, the Warbird is pretty screwed.

[HMS Sophia]

It really all depends if the ISD has CGTs or not. If it does, the Warbird is pretty screwed.

A single Imperial Star destroyer (Imperator class), has laid siege to one of your planets with a major science facility. It does not have GCT sensors

Bold bit is important...
Anyway, I think the ideas involving shuttles are the best you're going to get. But those plans have a very very many flaws...

[Darth Tedious]

It really all depends if the ISD has CGTs or not. If it does, the Warbird is pretty screwed.

A single Imperial Star destroyer (Imperator class), has laid siege to one of your planets with a major science facility. It does not have GCT sensors

Bold bit is important...
Anyway, I think the ideas involving shuttles are the best you're going to get. But those plans have a very very many flaws...

Hmmm. I missed that. Though- CGT: Crystal Gravfield Trap.

And I agree, the shuttle ideas are probably the best way to go. Although, depending on how unstable the artificial singularity can become, there could be a workable suicide attack.

[Eternal_Freedom]

If I have more than one shuttle available, I would launch the sucide strike on the hanger as described, but I would also send one to hover right in front of the bridge, send one to the secondary hanger, and another one hanging around the main engines.

Detonate simultaneously, cripple both hangers, possibly with some secondary explosions. Damage main engines, and wipe out bridge and command crew.

Might also send a shutle to sit on top of the main reactor bulb. Possibly several. That might just take the fucker out entirely.

[HMS Sophia]

If I have more than one shuttle available, I would launch the sucide strike on the hanger as described, but I would also send one to hover right in front of the bridge, send one to the secondary hanger, and another one hanging around the main engines.

Detonate simultaneously, cripple both hangers, possibly with some secondary explosions. Damage main engines, and wipe out bridge and command crew.

Might also send a shutle to sit on top of the main reactor bulb. Possibly several. That might just take the fucker out entirely.

Why would their explosions get through the shields?

[Eternal_Freedom]

IF you're sliping shuttles into the hanger by following returning TIEs, you've gone through the shields. From the hanger, spread out by flying close to the hull. Then, no shields in the way at all.

[HMS Sophia]

But the shields are form hugging. You could possibly fly into the hanger without notice because its a great big hole You cannot, as far as I know, spread out flying close too the hull, because you would be flying through the shield.
ETA: or even outside depending on how close you are...

[Eternal_Freedom]

Fair point. I was working on the assumption that the shuttles could fit in the gap. If they can, goodie, do what I said. If they can't, take out the hanger and leave it at that for now, see how the situation develops.

[Big Phil]

Why are we assuming that the ISD can't detect the cloaked warbird? Federation ships can often detect cloaked vessels indirectly, by looking for various technobabble sensor readings that don't make sense. Why wouldn't the ISD be able to do the same... assuming that the cloak even works against thousands of years more advanced sensor technology?

If, for the sake of argument, we assume that the cloak works perfectly, the only chance is to convince the ISD to drop its shields and then hammer it with everything you've got. Somehow you've got to convince the ISD that it successfully destroyed the Warbird - perhaps it could tractor some ground installations up into orbit, load some sensors on board that broadcast "Warbird with damaged cloak," and then have them get destroyed. Kind of like WW2 submarines would jettison debris to convince destroyers that they'd been sunk. It's a slim chance, but there's just no reasonable way to penetrate the ISD's shields.

[TheHammer]

Well with the shields up the Warbird cannot destroy the ISD through brute force- has the facility itself been evacuated? Also, does the Warbird carry any shuttles that have cloaking devices?

You've got TWO cloakable and lets say it does carry a dozen of those scorpion class attack fighters. To be used at your discretion.

[TheHammer]

Why are we assuming that the ISD can't detect the cloaked warbird? Federation ships can often detect cloaked vessels indirectly, by looking for various technobabble sensor readings that don't make sense. Why wouldn't the ISD be able to do the same... assuming that the cloak even works against thousands of years more advanced sensor technology?

If, for the sake of argument, we assume that the cloak works perfectly, the only chance is to convince the ISD to drop its shields and then hammer it with everything you've got. Somehow you've got to convince the ISD that it successfully destroyed the Warbird - perhaps it could tractor some ground installations up into orbit, load some sensors on board that broadcast "Warbird with damaged cloak," and then have them get destroyed. Kind of like WW2 submarines would jettison debris to convince destroyers that they'd been sunk. It's a slim chance, but there's just no reasonable way to penetrate the ISD's shields.

I'm assuming they can't detect it given that its noted that War's tech specifically uses expensive CGT sensors to detect cloaked ships. Yes I know Trek and Wars cloaking devices don't operate on the same principle, but the sensor technology of an ISD is hardly fool proof as the Falcon famously proved in TESB.

At any rate, if it makes you feel better the ISD's attention is focused on the planet below. They are wary of the potential for cloaked warbirds, but they do not have an confirmation of their presence at the start of the scenario. Of course, should you do something to make your presence known it might be a good idea not to hang out too close to the ship.

As to the second part, yes getting past the shields would be difficult. I've already got a solution in mind to inflict some serious damage, but I'm going to wait to post it.

[TheHammer]

Indirectly. As far as I can calc it, an Imperator-class simply does not have the space-to-surface lift for all its' troop complement. There will be shuttle runs of dropships, and I only need one- for a first attempt, at least.

The mechanics are simple enough; how to do it without getting rumbled is the hard part. Monitor the first run, looking for things like signals traffic, security procedure- patterns that can be used.

Wait for a dropship to finish unloading, for the ground forces to be released, then beam down a strike team. Try to do this noiselessly, with the blade if at all possible rather than disruptors. If successful, beam down something else; as many photon torpedoes or antimatter demolition charges as the strike team can load aboard the Imperial dropship without it taking a suspicious amount of time. Maybe only one or two, which is fine as long as they're big enough.

I think you can figure out where this is going by now...biggest and most obvious problems so far; how long do Imperial dropships just hang around after dropping off their complement? In a full drop, not long, I'd bet. Might have to wait for the last lift, or for some kind of mechanical failure to leave one beached for a while.

Next obvious problem; jamming may prevent the use of transporters. If this is so and the area is merely local around the facility, beam down outside the zone and go in on foot, try to approach and ambush a dropship the old fashioned way. If the zone is hundreds or thousands of kilometres across, crap, back to plan B.

If some variant of the above works, though, fly casual on way to Star Destroyer, give good approximations of previously scanned and recorded data- try to reproduce the codes, for a start- hopefully land, detonate mines for the greater glory of the Romulan Empire, salute the brave martyrs. Might only blow out the hangar bay, but it'll do for a beginning.

Evil sneaky subplan; if there has been enough contact to do any medical research, then a smuggled bioweapon released once on board would probably be more effective, get the ship through the weakest point, the crew. Probably less obvious on scanners than an antimatter mine, at that.

Good traffic control alert for deviations from pattern, and TIEs or the ship itself scanning each returning dropship, could rumble this plan. Might be necessary to do something else as a distraction- hopefully something that does not endanger the warbird- to create some chaos to give it a chance. An attack by armed shuttles, maybe, that could short- circuit normal security procedure- get them down, get them on board now, that kind of reaction.

A good idea to get past the shields. But as you noted, it has a lot of elements that could go wrong. Still, I think it would have at least some chance of success and certainly worth a try.

Failing that, sneak in really, really close and do a Han Solo- sneal a cloaked shuttle in to lock on to the back of the bridge tower. Remember those limpet mines?

Not a bad plan, but the shields are raised so any external attacks might not be enough.

[Big Phil]

Regardless of the exact approach, this entire scenario boils down to catching the ISD without its shields and then praying that the Warbird's ordinance can penetrate the armor and destroy the ISD before it can retaliate.

It's the equivalent of an ant hoping to sever an elephant's jugular before the elephant can squash it. Sure, maybe it could happen, but it's such a long shot that the scenario isn't a whole lot of fun.

[TheHammer]

Regardless of the exact approach, this entire scenario boils down to catching the ISD without its shields and then praying that the Warbird's ordinance can penetrate the armor and destroy the ISD before it can retaliate.

It's the equivalent of an ant hoping to sever an elephant's jugular before the elephant can squash it. Sure, maybe it could happen, but it's such a long shot that the scenario isn't a whole lot of fun.

I disagree. I think there is certainly a viable way in this scenario to inflict significant damage capable of disabling or distroying the ISD. Brute force will not do it, but its not the elphant and ant situation you just described.

[Big Phil]

Regardless of the exact approach, this entire scenario boils down to catching the ISD without its shields and then praying that the Warbird's ordinance can penetrate the armor and destroy the ISD before it can retaliate.

It's the equivalent of an ant hoping to sever an elephant's jugular before the elephant can squash it. Sure, maybe it could happen, but it's such a long shot that the scenario isn't a whole lot of fun.

I disagree. I think there is certainly a viable way in this scenario to inflict significant damage capable of disabling or distroying the ISD. Brute force will not do it, but its not the elphant and ant situation you just described.

Based on what canonical evidence do you disagree?

Based on This, the Enterprise-D produces ~50,000 times less power than a 30 year old Star Wars troop transport, and its main weapons are ~80 million times less powerful (although photon torpedoes are only 37,000 times less powerful than the heavy guns on an Acclamator). Given that the Enterprise-D is approximately on par with a Warbird, you're fooling yourself if you don't think it's an absurd mismatch, even if you assume the Wars numbers are overstated and the Trek numbers are understated.

[mr friendly guy]

Why are we assuming that the ISD can't detect the cloaked warbird? Federation ships can often detect cloaked vessels indirectly, by looking for various technobabble sensor readings that don't make sense. Why wouldn't the ISD be able to do the same... assuming that the cloak even works against thousands of years more advanced sensor technology?

.

I am pretty sure cloaking devices are useless / less effective in a) an atmosphere b) at ridiculously high warp (ie needing to match the E-D's speed as per the episode "Tin Man."). Hopefully the Romulan commander (ie you in the OP) knows these limitations.

Regardless of the exact approach, this entire scenario boils down to catching the ISD without its shields and then praying that the Warbird's ordinance can penetrate the armor and destroy the ISD before it can retaliate.

It's the equivalent of an ant hoping to sever an elephant's jugular before the elephant can squash it. Sure, maybe it could happen, but it's such a long shot that the scenario isn't a whole lot of fun.

Isn't this what we call asymetrical warfare? The Warbird's only advantage is that its cloaked, so it might get the first shot in. Otherwise it dies.

Fun is a subjective term, but I do find it interesting in trying to work out how an obviously inferior foe could have a chance against their stronger enemy.

[Batman]

The BoP's cloak in TVH seemed to work well enough in Earth's atmosphere, at least WRT visual detection. Of course, that same cloak wasn't good enough to hide the fact that there was a cloaked ship over Genesis in TSFS (though that might have been Sulu detecting the activation of the cloak). High Warp leakage isn't likely to come into play here, and Valen only knows if it would make a difference, as subspace based technology, while available and in use, isn't something the Imperials seem to use extensively, so what if any subspace sensors they have may not be up to the task even if they got the chance.
Standard Imperial sensors may or may not be able to look through Trek cloaks, without a lot more information on either system than I think we have it's impossible to tell, but if they can, the scenario becomes moot anyway-the ISD simply instakills the Warbird the moment it enters firing range. Far more interesting to assume the Warbird isn't detected and try to figure out a way for it to hurt the ISD, because even an unshielded ISD is likely capable of blithely ignoring any direct attack the D'Deridex can throw its way.