You are captain of a cloaked Romulan Warbird

[Patrick Degan]

The BoP's cloak in TVH seemed to work well enough in Earth's atmosphere, at least WRT visual detection. Of course, that same cloak wasn't good enough to hide the fact that there was a cloaked ship over Genesis in TSFS (though that might have been Sulu detecting the activation of the cloak).

The cloaking system on Kruge's BoP seemed to pump out a lot of subspace interference, indicating that the Klingons may have only recently adapted the technology at that time but had not properly engineered it. The subspace radio sets on the freighter and the Grissom both picked up the howl from the cloak. Also, Sulu had spotted a visual distortion on the viewscreen as the ship approached the Enterprise, quartering in for attack. It is possible that by the time "HMS Bounty" launched from Vulcan, Scotty and Chekov along with Vulcan technicians had corrected the deficiencies in the cloaking device, as we see no sort of visual distortion surrounding the ship while under the screen while it's sitting on Earth.

[TheHammer]

As many have noted, a warbird can't possibly stand up to a fully functional ISD in a straight on fight. And others have also pointed out that the only chink in the armor so to speak would be surrounding the hangar bay of the ISD. But how to get at it? One proposed solution involves capturing an imperial landing craft, stuffing it full of explosives and getting it back into the hangar bay for detonation. The problem with that scenario is a lot of things could go wrong leading up to the actual detonation point.

Another proposal is to fly a cloaked shuttle, again packed with explosives, into the the hangar bay of the ISD, following a TIE patrol returning to base, or a transport returning from the surface. I think that this would be more viable, but again relies on a bit of luck in that the shuttle would need to get into the bay without detection. Even if the ISD can't detect the warbird, I'd imagine the closer it got to the ship the more likely detection would become (unless it found one of the notrious sensor blind spots). Still, this would not be a bad plan.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

My idea for this scenario would involve the other tactical advantage the romulans have - the transporter. This could go down a couple of different ways. First, if any of the landing craft are unshielded they'd be my first choice as a "trojan horse", having the most cargo capacity. However, if I'm not lucky in that regard and all the ships are shielded from the surface all the way up to the ISD, then my second option would be targets that I'm absolutely certain are not shielded - Tie fighters (Tie Bombers preferably, for as noted additional cargo space).

My tactic would be to wait until a patrol is returning to the hanger bay. I'd beam the pilots themselves out of their fighters to create more space, at which point I'd transport the most powerful explosives at my disposal on board the tie fighters just as they are making their final approach. These are not neccessarily photon torpedos since I don't have to concern myself with propulsion, guidance, shields or armor, I can employee other more powerful devices. Instead I'd use something akin to a tri-cobalt device.

After detonation, the vaunted ISD shields and armor being bi-passed, I'd expect either a totally destroyed ISD, or at least one severely crippled - Enough to allow for the warbird to finish it off with conventional weapons.

[Big Phil]

Why would you expect a ship with the armor and shields to withstand repeated 2.4M megaton shots to be destroyed by Trek level explosives, even if they detonate inside a ship?

Transporters - beaming pilots out of their shielded craft? WTF? I know you're grasping at straws, but flying a shuttle packed with explosives into the hangar is your better bet.

Perhaps the single best option is one that takes warships entirely out of the equation. Insert a squad of Romulans (wearing Stormtrooper armor) somewhere and pray they can fight their way to and destroy the reactor. Alternatively, since Trek-era cosmetic surgery is sufficiently advanced to allow species to pass for other species, alter a Romulan to pass for some high ranking officer (let's just say they magically know the appearance, behavior, and passwords for the ISD's command-level officers) and infiltrate that way. He could then take his time to destroy the ship from the inside.

[Eternal_Freedom]

There is even a cannon SW incident describing large internal explosions.

In "Vector Prime," The Republic battlecruiser Mediator is infiltrated by a large and fairly crude shuttle, which is apparently "packed with nuclear explosives." The shuttle lands in the large ships ventral hanger bay and detonates. The ship flips end over end but remains intact structurally.

In fairness the Mediator class is about 8 km long so it's much large than an ISD, but it shows that SW ship designs have the ability to withstand large internal explosions.

Also, IIRC in "Before the Storm," the find the wreck of the mk 1 ISD Gnisnal, which had it's own reactor explode:

The ship's primary transfer coupling for the solar ionization reactor failed, causing the primary explosion. The hyperspace motivator then collapsed into the reactor core, causing a secondary explosion that cracked the hull and destroyed decks 1 through 26. The ship split into several large chunks and was left adrift.

Ok, it was split into chunks. But that was a large and catastrophic internal explosion. And the ship was not vaporised. Wrecked to be certain, but it still shows that ISD's have very strong internal structures.

[TheHammer]

Why would you expect a ship with the armor and shields to withstand repeated 2.4M megaton shots to be destroyed by Trek level explosives, even if they detonate inside a ship?

The armor and shields are on the outside of the ship, designed to protect the people and systems within from external attack. A massive explosion from the inside out would be devastating. The external shell might survive, but even if it does the ISD is still going to be in a bad way.

As for trek level explosives, the yield of photon torpedos may not be impressive, however we've seen other means of generating more powerful explosions. The afore mentioned Tri-cobalt devices is one example.

Transporters - beaming pilots out of their shielded craft? WTF? I know you're grasping at straws, but flying a shuttle packed with explosives into the hangar is your better bet.

I'm not sure if the ATAT landing barges are shielded or not. If not, they would be my first choice. However I clearly stated that if they are shielded then my second choice would be the tie fighters which we know aren't shielded.

Perhaps the single best option is one that takes warships entirely out of the equation. Insert a squad of Romulans (wearing Stormtrooper armor) somewhere and pray they can fight their way to and destroy the reactor. Alternatively, since Trek-era cosmetic surgery is sufficiently advanced to allow species to pass for other species, alter a Romulan to pass for some high ranking officer (let's just say they magically know the appearance, behavior, and passwords for the ISD's command-level officers) and infiltrate that way. He could then take his time to destroy the ship from the inside.

Infilitration would be a viable alternate means worth trying. But it would also be much more complicated. If this were an episode of star trek, I expect that's exactly how it would go down though lol.

[TheHammer]

There is even a cannon SW incident describing large internal explosions.

In "Vector Prime," The Republic battlecruiser Mediator is infiltrated by a large and fairly crude shuttle, which is apparently "packed with nuclear explosives." The shuttle lands in the large ships ventral hanger bay and detonates. The ship flips end over end but remains intact structurally.

Out of curiousity, Any indication what level of yield on the nukes?

In fairness the Mediator class is about 8 km long so it's much large than an ISD, but it shows that SW ship designs have the ability to withstand large internal explosions.

Depends on what you mean by "withstand". Is it stated what the condition of the Mediator ship and its crew was following the explosion? Was it still capable of putting up a fight?

Also, IIRC in "Before the Storm," the find the wreck of the mk 1 ISD Gnisnal, which had it's own reactor explode:

The ship's primary transfer coupling for the solar ionization reactor failed, causing the primary explosion. The hyperspace motivator then collapsed into the reactor core, causing a secondary explosion that cracked the hull and destroyed decks 1 through 26. The ship split into several large chunks and was left adrift.

Ok, it was split into chunks. But that was a large and catastrophic internal explosion. And the ship was not vaporised. Wrecked to be certain, but it still shows that ISD's have very strong internal structures.

Wrecked would be sufficient. Vaporisation would be overkill.

[Eternal_Freedom]

I do not recall any statemnt on the yield of the nukes, nor do I know if the ship was still combat-effective after the blast. However, Imperial ships have independent power sources for the guns so they can continue firing even without main power.

They might only get off a few shots, but against a Romulan ship that would be all you need.

[Big Phil]

Why would you expect a ship with the armor and shields to withstand repeated 2.4M megaton shots to be destroyed by Trek level explosives, even if they detonate inside a ship?

The armor and shields are on the outside of the ship, designed to protect the people and systems within from external attack. A massive explosion from the inside out would be devastating. The external shell might survive, but even if it does the ISD is still going to be in a bad way.

As for trek level explosives, the yield of photon torpedos may not be impressive, however we've seen other means of generating more powerful explosions. The afore mentioned Tri-cobalt devices is one example.

If you're going to make that argument, you really need to make at least some rough calculations regarding the strength of the ISD's framing and the level of damage that an internal explosion would do. Many ships (real life and sci-fi) have suffered internal explosions without completely destroying the ship. Their ability to survive such a blast has a lot to do with the design of the ship and the strength of the explosion. It's not unreasonable to expect that an ISD, which is designed to fight in space, accelerate, decelerate, and absorb hits from weapons capable of discharging millions of megatons, could survive a double or even triple digit megaton internal explosion without substantially affecting the ship's ability to fight.

Transporters - beaming pilots out of their shielded craft? WTF? I know you're grasping at straws, but flying a shuttle packed with explosives into the hangar is your better bet.

I'm not sure if the ATAT landing barges are shielded or not. If not, they would be my first choice. However I clearly stated that if they are shielded then my second choice would be the tie fighters which we know aren't shielded.

There's evidence that TIE's have shields, but even if they don't, you have no reason to expect that transporters would be able to penetrate their armor. They're made out of fairly dense material, after all.

Perhaps the single best option is one that takes warships entirely out of the equation. Insert a squad of Romulans (wearing Stormtrooper armor) somewhere and pray they can fight their way to and destroy the reactor. Alternatively, since Trek-era cosmetic surgery is sufficiently advanced to allow species to pass for other species, alter a Romulan to pass for some high ranking officer (let's just say they magically know the appearance, behavior, and passwords for the ISD's command-level officers) and infiltrate that way. He could then take his time to destroy the ship from the inside.

Infilitration would be a viable alternate means worth trying. But it would also be much more complicated. If this were an episode of star trek, I expect that's exactly how it would go down though lol.

Perhaps, but the odds of success are probably more like 10,000:1 instead of 10 Million:1

[TheHammer]

I do not recall any statemnt on the yield of the nukes, nor do I know if the ship was still combat-effective after the blast. However, Imperial ships have independent power sources for the guns so they can continue firing even without main power.

They might only get off a few shots, but against a Romulan ship that would be all you need.

I tried to find a definitive source but couldn't. Closest I got was this: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Mediator

Nom Anor then remotely detonated the nuclear fission devices packed in his spacecraft as this was entering into the Mediator's lower docking bay. The explosion vaporized the entire section of docking bays, blowing out a huge section of the lower floor of the ship. Still, the vessel was not completely destroyed and managed to get its spin under control, a testament to Mon Calamari engineering.



As for the guns having power, well that assumes the gunners survive, and that the guns themselves are not severely damaged. Not to say if any surviving guns were there that it's not dangerous. A tiger with internal bleeding and three broken legs could still bite you if you or claw you with its fourth leg if you get close enough to let it do so.

Its impossible to prove what would happen, but in all likliehood the ISD is destroyed, or crippled to the point where it could be destroyed in a follow up attack. If it still has active guns, I highly doubt its shields would be working, certainly not in the area of the ship that suffered damage as described above. You could simply remain cloaked and beam more explosive devices inside the hull to finish it off even if the first attack didn't do it.

[Eternal_Freedom]

That again assumes that the transporters can penetrate the heavy armour, which given that they can be stymied by any number of things from layers of rock to incredibl low level EM fields, is not garunteed.

There's a thought, completely off-topic but still: If low-leve EM fields block transporters, what effect would, say, the mobile phone network have on them?

[TheHammer]

That again assumes that the transporters can penetrate the heavy armour, which given that they can be stymied by any number of things from layers of rock to incredibl low level EM fields, is not garunteed.

Don't go there... We know transporters are blocked by shields, but that's all we know.

But, just to make it a moot point because I don't care to debate it - Even if that were case, I'd beam explosives into what's left of the hangar bay, or whatever other conveniently gaping hole now exist.

[Eternal_Freedom]

There we go.

Well, it's certainly a good plan, and about the only one that could possibly be effective. But as you said, it can go down in so many different ways.

[TheHammer]

Why would you expect a ship with the armor and shields to withstand repeated 2.4M megaton shots to be destroyed by Trek level explosives, even if they detonate inside a ship?

The armor and shields are on the outside of the ship, designed to protect the people and systems within from external attack. A massive explosion from the inside out would be devastating. The external shell might survive, but even if it does the ISD is still going to be in a bad way.

As for trek level explosives, the yield of photon torpedos may not be impressive, however we've seen other means of generating more powerful explosions. The afore mentioned Tri-cobalt devices is one example.

If you're going to make that argument, you really need to make at least some rough calculations regarding the strength of the ISD's framing and the level of damage that an internal explosion would do. Many ships (real life and sci-fi) have suffered internal explosions without completely destroying the ship. Their ability to survive such a blast has a lot to do with the design of the ship and the strength of the explosion. It's not unreasonable to expect that an ISD, which is designed to fight in space, accelerate, decelerate, and absorb hits from weapons capable of discharging millions of megatons, could survive a double or even triple digit megaton internal explosion without substantially affecting the ship's ability to fight.

The ISD is designed to absorb hits from the outside. Which makes sense. But internally its going to be a different matter entirely. The armor is there to prevent an enemy from hitting the soft innards of the ISD in the first place. If you bypass it, sure it will absorb the impact from the other side, but all those internal systems are going to be hit before the armor even comes into play. Its like droping a grenade inside the hull of a tank. Sure the outer armor may seem fine, but the people and systems inside will suffer tremendous damage.

For an example, see the example cited previously for the newer, larger, and likely more powerful "Mediator" class ship. Fission explosives destroyed a good chunk of the ship. And "completely destroy" is only one potential outcome, dependent upon secondary explosions. However, I'd say its highly likely the ship would suffer multiple hull breaches.

There's evidence that TIE's have shields, but even if they don't, you have no reason to expect that transporters would be able to penetrate their armor. They're made out of fairly dense material, after all.

What evidence of shields? Everything I've ever seen, played, and read is that TIE fighters, Bombers, and Interceptors do not have shields.

And you are SERIOUSLY going to argue that TIEs are made of dense material impenetrable by transporters? Even if I granted you that the main shell were made of some magical transporter blocking armor (and I'm not), the TIEs still have windows.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

If we follow the plan of detonating a cloaked shuttle inside the ship, the shuttle would probably be packed with Ultritium since the Romulans have access to it as evidenced in The Enemy where an ultritium-based auto-destruct device was used to destroy the Romulan scout ship Pi after it crash-landed on Galorndon Core in 2366. Whether SW sensors can detect it is unknown, just that ST ones have great difficulty detecting it- but any Romulan worth his salt is going to take that chance in order to gain even a small advantage.

[Big Phil]

The armor and shields are on the outside of the ship, designed to protect the people and systems within from external attack. A massive explosion from the inside out would be devastating. The external shell might survive, but even if it does the ISD is still going to be in a bad way.

As for trek level explosives, the yield of photon torpedos may not be impressive, however we've seen other means of generating more powerful explosions. The afore mentioned Tri-cobalt devices is one example.

If you're going to make that argument, you really need to make at least some rough calculations regarding the strength of the ISD's framing and the level of damage that an internal explosion would do. Many ships (real life and sci-fi) have suffered internal explosions without completely destroying the ship. Their ability to survive such a blast has a lot to do with the design of the ship and the strength of the explosion. It's not unreasonable to expect that an ISD, which is designed to fight in space, accelerate, decelerate, and absorb hits from weapons capable of discharging millions of megatons, could survive a double or even triple digit megaton internal explosion without substantially affecting the ship's ability to fight.

The ISD is designed to absorb hits from the outside. Which makes sense. But internally its going to be a different matter entirely. The armor is there to prevent an enemy from hitting the soft innards of the ISD in the first place. If you bypass it, sure it will absorb the impact from the other side, but all those internal systems are going to be hit before the armor even comes into play. Its like droping a grenade inside the hull of a tank. Sure the outer armor may seem fine, but the people and systems inside will suffer tremendous damage.

For an example, see the example cited previously for the newer, larger, and likely more powerful "Mediator" class ship. Fission explosives destroyed a good chunk of the ship. And "completely destroy" is only one potential outcome, dependent upon secondary explosions. However, I'd say its highly likely the ship would suffer multiple hull breaches.

You keep making the same mistake as Trekkies everywhere - no numbers. You're assuming that an internal explosion will wreck an ISD, but you're not willing to calculate the damage required to do it.

Put it this way, what would happen to an American destroyer if a grenade went off in the helicopter hangar? Maybe a fire... maybe. What about a 500 lb bomb, or a 2000 lb bomb, or a 20KT nuclear device? Each is going to do different degrees of damage, so you can't say that ANY explosion will wreck the ship. You need to demonstrate whether, relative to an ISD, the damage Romulan explosives would do is equivalent to a grenade, a bomb, or a nuclear device. I suppose there are other ways to prove that, but just saying "IT WOULD WORK!!!" isn't a winning argument.

There's evidence that TIE's have shields, but even if they don't, you have no reason to expect that transporters would be able to penetrate their armor. They're made out of fairly dense material, after all.

What evidence of shields? Everything I've ever seen, played, and read is that TIE fighters, Bombers, and Interceptors do not have shields.

And you are SERIOUSLY going to argue that TIEs are made of dense material impenetrable by transporters? Even if I granted you that the main shell were made of some magical transporter blocking armor (and I'm not), the TIEs still have windows.

Yes, I'm arguing that TIE's, like all other Wars vessels, are made of dense material impenetrable by transporters. Any number of things interfere with Trek transporters - dense metals and rocks, atmospheric interference, some armors and shields, etc. Given the density of Wars durasteel, assuming that Trek transporters cannot work on TIE fighters is the more reasonable assumption.

Canonically, TIE's don't usually carry shields, but they can be upgraded with shields. There's also visual evidence that suggests that TIE's might have shields. But that's an aside anyway. Trek transporters aren't magical things that work 100% without shields and work 0% of the time with shields.

[TheHammer]

You keep making the same mistake as Trekkies everywhere - no numbers. You're assuming that an internal explosion will wreck an ISD, but you're not willing to calculate the damage required to do it.

Firstly, I'm not a "trekkie".

Put it this way, what would happen to an American destroyer if a grenade went off in the helicopter hangar? Maybe a fire... maybe. What about a 500 lb bomb, or a 2000 lb bomb, or a 20KT nuclear device? Each is going to do different degrees of damage, so you can't say that ANY explosion will wreck the ship. You need to demonstrate whether, relative to an ISD, the damage Romulan explosives would do is equivalent to a grenade, a bomb, or a nuclear device. I suppose there are other ways to prove that, but just saying "IT WOULD WORK!!!" isn't a winning argument.

I didn't bother because I think it would have been fairly obvious. But ok, lets try and do some calcs. First of all, lets go with a relatively powerful romulan explosive from the TOS era, the Plasma torpedo.

From the Imperial Wiki http://www.stardestroyer.net/mrwong/wik ... ma_torpedo
The weapon's power is certainly impressive: the destruction of a nickel-iron asteroid of at least two miles diameter could easily require hundreds of megatons of energy,[1] which would certainly be an achievable energy yield for a space-faring civilization

Why its not used as a weapon more often? Well perhaps it doesn't fair so well against shields. Fortunately we don't have to worry about that. We're doing the most powerful explosives we can from inside the shields and armor. So, would you agree that 50 MT would be reasonable, given its half the lower limit of "hundreds of MT" listed above? Using the nuclear calculator http://www.stardestroyer.net/Resources/ ... sions.html produces these results:

Thermal radiation radius (3rd degree burns) 58 kilometres
Air blast radius (widespread destruction) 26.3 kilometres
Air blast radius (near-total fatalities) 9.9 kilometres
Ionizing radiation radius (500 rem) 6.6 kilometres
Fireball duration 26.2 seconds
Fireball radius (minimum) 2.1 kilometres
Fireball radius (airburst) 2.5 kilometres
Fireball radius (ground-contact airburst) 3.3 kilometres

True that's not all applicable, but gives you an idea of how big a boom we're talking. Sure a shielded ISD would scoff at that if hit from the outside, but as noted previously even a fission nuclear explosion caused significant damage when detonated internally on an 8 KM Mediator class ship. You also you have to worry about the potential radiation damage to systems and personnel in addition to the explosive blast itself.

Yes, I'm arguing that TIE's, like all other Wars vessels, are made of dense material impenetrable by transporters. Any number of things interfere with Trek transporters - dense metals and rocks, atmospheric interference, some armors and shields, etc. Given the density of Wars durasteel, assuming that Trek transporters cannot work on TIE fighters is the more reasonable assumption.

Whether or not Trek transporters would work through durasteel is dubious at best. They work and fail to work whenever the plot has called for it in the past against a variety of materials.

However, to make this simple I'm going to refer back to my earlier statement - that Ties are not solid pieces of durasteel. They have windows just like the ISD likewise has windows. I believe it has been called "Transparisteel" but it is clearly much less dense than the rest of the ship. You'll note that an A-wing crashed right through one of those windows in ROTJ to destroy the bridge of Executor.

Canonically, TIE's don't usually carry shields, but they can be upgraded with shields. There's also visual evidence that suggests that TIE's might have shields. But that's an aside anyway. Trek transporters aren't magical things that work 100% without shields and work 0% of the time with shields.

Its not that TIEs aren't capable of having shields. Its that they don't for whatever reason. Canonically, plenty of older fighter craft carried shields of some sort. Perhaps its a cost/benefit design decision given that fighter craft even when shielded rarely survive a direct hit. Unelss otherwise specified, the assumption should be that these are all your "standard" variety craft.

[Big Phil]

Look, the point about your transporter argument boils down to "we just don't know." As you pointed out, transporters work based on the plot, not any coherent logic. Sometimes a strong breeze prevents them from working; other times they can transport through miles of solid rock. Given that, I'm inclined to dismiss transporters as a viable weapon.

The shuttle packed with explosives, however, that's much more viable. I think it could work, but I also think you're also over-estimating the damage such an explosion would do to an ISD. You're also missing a key point; if the explosion happens to kill the ISD, so much the better, but the more realistic opportunity is to knock out the shields, power, and C&C for the critical 30-60 seconds needed for the Warbird to hit the ISD with everything it's got before it can defend itself or retaliate.

[TheHammer]

Look, the point about your transporter argument boils down to "we just don't know." As you pointed out, transporters work based on the plot, not any coherent logic. Sometimes a strong breeze prevents them from working; other times they can transport through miles of solid rock. Given that, I'm inclined to dismiss transporters as a viable weapon.

The shuttle packed with explosives, however, that's much more viable. I think it could work, but I also think you're also over-estimating the damage such an explosion would do to an ISD. You're also missing a key point; if the explosion happens to kill the ISD, so much the better, but the more realistic opportunity is to knock out the shields, power, and C&C for the critical 30-60 seconds needed for the Warbird to hit the ISD with everything it's got before it can defend itself or retaliate.

I don't think you simply "dismiss" transporters as a tactical weapon otherwise you'd have to dismiss every other weapon or ability that has shown an inconsistent performance - such as Jedi force powers. Transporters do work most of the time. The only consistent means to block them is with shields.

But we all know nothing is guaranteed. If somehow the transporters didn't work, then the shuttle would be the next best option. If anything remained of the ISD that could still put up a fight, I'd remain cloaked and transport additional explosives in near proximity or through hull breaches, never exposing myself to a counter attack.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

As for explosive yield, enough Ultritium could be fitted into the space of one canister of Ketracel White to destroy the Dominion's primary ketracel-white storage facility. Granted we don't know the exact size of one container, but they were small enough to be able to transport 84 of them at once.

[Big Phil]

As for explosive yield, enough Ultritium could be fitted into the space of one canister of Ketracel White to destroy the Dominion's primary ketracel-white storage facility. Granted we don't know the exact size of one container, but they were small enough to be able to transport 84 of them at once.

It's not just yield that matters - the ability of an ISD's internal structure to withstand the blast also matters, and that's unknown.

For example: saying that 16" naval artillery shell contains 1800 lbs of explosive doesn't tell me whether or not it could destroy a battleship if it detonates internally. What tells you that is the combination of explosive power and the strength and layout of the ship's internal structures.

The argument that's being made here is sort of like saying that because a 17th century galleon could destroy a 17th century fortress, of course it could sink a 20th century battleship. That's nonsense, of course, but that's what's being argued.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

As for explosive yield, enough Ultritium could be fitted into the space of one canister of Ketracel White to destroy the Dominion's primary ketracel-white storage facility. Granted we don't know the exact size of one container, but they were small enough to be able to transport 84 of them at once.

It's not just yield that matters - the ability of an ISD's internal structure to withstand the blast also matters, and that's unknown.

For example: saying that 16" naval artillery shell contains 1800 lbs of explosive doesn't tell me whether or not it could destroy a battleship if it detonates internally. What tells you that is the combination of explosive power and the strength and layout of the ship's internal structures.

The argument that's being made here is sort of like saying that because a 17th century galleon could destroy a 17th century fortress, of course it could sink a 20th century battleship. That's nonsense, of course, but that's what's being argued.

For what it's worth, this is what O'Brien in "A time to stand" said:

I've got eighty-three empty canisters standing by. (a beat) And one not so empty. Ninety isotons of enriched ultritium should take out the entire storage facility and anything else within eight hundred kilometers.

Again, there's too many unknowns, because we have no numbers for the ISD's internal strength and no real numbers for Ultritium. From the explosion in the ep though, the 800KM must refer to any Jem'Hadar fighter in the vicinity, given that the one the DS9 team used was crippled in the blast but not destroyed.

As for the battleship, it could destroy it if it detonated in the magazine, since we're assuming the explosion occurs inside the ship.

[Big Phil]

As for explosive yield, enough Ultritium could be fitted into the space of one canister of Ketracel White to destroy the Dominion's primary ketracel-white storage facility. Granted we don't know the exact size of one container, but they were small enough to be able to transport 84 of them at once.

It's not just yield that matters - the ability of an ISD's internal structure to withstand the blast also matters, and that's unknown.

For example: saying that 16" naval artillery shell contains 1800 lbs of explosive doesn't tell me whether or not it could destroy a battleship if it detonates internally. What tells you that is the combination of explosive power and the strength and layout of the ship's internal structures.

The argument that's being made here is sort of like saying that because a 17th century galleon could destroy a 17th century fortress, of course it could sink a 20th century battleship. That's nonsense, of course, but that's what's being argued.

For what it's worth, this is what O'Brien in "A time to stand" said:

I've got eighty-three empty canisters standing by. (a beat) And one not so empty. Ninety isotons of enriched ultritium should take out the entire storage facility and anything else within eight hundred kilometers.

Again, there's too many unknowns, because we have no numbers for the ISD's internal strength and no real numbers for Ultritium. From the explosion in the ep though, the 800KM must refer to any Jem'Hadar fighter in the vicinity, given that the one the DS9 team used was crippled in the blast but not destroyed.

As for the battleship, it could destroy it if it detonated in the magazine, since we're assuming the explosion occurs inside the ship.

If the magazine detonates it's all over, but it's the MAGAZINE that destroys the ship, not the foreign explosive. Same result, regardless.

The problem with that dialogue is that the visual evidence doesn't appear to agree with the 800 km (radius presumably). It appears that the explosion destroyed the asteroid facility, and expanded out from there, but doesn't appear to have reached 800 km. And since their ship appeared to be within 800km when the explosion occurred, and they weren't destroyed, that suggests some exaggeration.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_fBT0ZP ... re=related

[Darth Tedious]

Whether or not Trek transporters would work through durasteel is dubious at best.

There is evidence to suggest that they could, and a bunch of unknowns.
Durasteel contains neutronium, which is known to cause trouble for ST sensors (which would make it quite difficult to get a transporter lock), but can be beamed through (demonstrated in VOY:'Think Tank').
Whether transporters can work though lommite, zersium, carvanium or meleenium is another matter entirely...

As for why standard TIEs have no shields, I believe the reasoning given was that it motivates the pilots better.

[Batman]

Yes, among the reasons given, that was one of the most stupid. Anyway, given the speeds they can and do operate at, all TIEs need at least rudimentary particle shielding unless you want to assume even more asinine material strengths for Wars building materials than the canon already delivers. When you're going 75 PSL space ceases to be quite as empty as we generally assume it to be, and that's ignoring the occasional micrometeroid.
Whether or not particle shields bother Trek transporters is of course undetermined, as Trek shields seem to be multipurpose and block both energy and matter.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

I was skimming Wookieepedia when I came across this in reference to the Mediator, relevant section in italic:

The armor on the inside of the ship was strong enough to prevent a complete destruction of the vessel, even in the case of a nuclear detonation inside a hangar.[1] This was in sharp contrast to Imperial designs like the Imperial-class Star Destroyer, which could be blown up with a similar charge placed in a hangar.[5]

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It should be noted that the source for that is listed as Star Wars: X-wing, so I don't know if such a detonation counts as part of the storyline or game mechanics.