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 Post subject: Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars PostPosted: 2011-03-13 02:18am
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Stofsk wrote:
darthy wrote:
data was assimilated by the borg in episode "descent part 1"

No he wasn't. Do you even know what you're fucking talking about?


Yeah he was man. Assimilated as in "to bring into conformity with the customs, attitudes, etc., of a group, nation, or the like; adapt or adjust".

Here's the dialogue

Quote:
CROSIS: You are not like the others. You do not have to be destroyed. You can be assimilated.
DATA: I do not wish to be assimilated.
CROSIS: Resistance is futile. You will not resist what you've wanted all your life.


Then data betrays the crew. Data was linked into that collective at this point. He didn't have borg parts all over his body but he was still assimilated.

Here's some dialogue from voyager episode "scoripion part 2":

Quote:
BORG [OC]: A neuro-transceiver is required for maximum communication. We will work as one mind.
JANEWAY: No. That wasn't the agreement.
BORG [OC]: The neural link is temporary. You will not be damaged.
JANEWAY: I don't care. I prefer to communicate verbally, thank you.
BORG [OC]: Your primitive communication is inefficient.
TUVOK: On the contrary. We work better with our individuality intact. Surely, we've proven that to you by now.
BORG [OC]: Irrelevant. You must comply.
JANEWAY: We must do nothing. Tell your drone to remove the transceiver. What about choosing a representative? A single Borg we can work with and talk to directly.
BORG [OC]: Elaborate.
JANEWAY: You've done it before. When you transformed Jean-Luc Picard into Locutus. We will not be assimilated. Choose a representative or the deal's off.


the term assimilated was used in a procedure that didn't involve nanoprobe injections. So technically, saying data was assimilated by the borg before is an accurate statement.

Quote:
Too bad they don't use them. Picard knew where Data's off switch was, yet in multiple instances of Borg drones engaging Data in hand-to-hand combat, none of them switched him off, even when they had ample oppportunity to do so.


Only geordie, doctor crusher, and riker have demonstrated to know where data's off switch was. Data could have put a protection device on his off switch in certain combat situations. If picard knew where data's off switch was and knew of this protection device, it might explain why the borg didn't bother trying to shut him off. Plus it's possible to have knowledge but not think to apply it in certain situations.

Quote:
Again, too bad those weren't Borg nanoprobes. The fact that Wes could do something the Borg can't only speaks further of their incompetence.


Locutis called data a primative artificial organism. The primary borg collective may just have no interest in androids for their own reasons. Wes shows that nanoprobes in general on star trek have the potential to assimilate artificial lifeforms.

Quote:
Yeah! Great adaption that shows! They leave critically vulnerable areas exposed! Tell me again what the point of having armour is?


There was a scene where a security officer tries to knock out a drone with the back of his phaser rifle and hits the borg in the armour. The borg is unaffected and then gets knocked out. That's the point. The borg can also heal themselves quickly with the medical applications of the collective. Also seven says that the borg have the ability to reactive drones as much as 73 hours after what they call death. This means that we don't know if these borg were actually killed or just temporarily immobilized and reactivated later.

Quote:
Okay. Who?


voyager, in episode scorion. Perhaps other species would consider the empire more of a threat or even a group in the star wars galaxy would assist the borg in assimilating sw technology if the borg had difficulties.

Quote:
Joining Lore to lead a band of renegade Borg runaways isn't being assimilated. Where were the implants? The nanoprobes? At the very least, the radical reprogramming of his neural net?
Oh, that's right! None of that happened! He was under the influence of Lore, who was using his emotion chip as a means of manipulation.


The definition of assimilate is more broad than that. Here's another quote from voyager episode "the gift"

Quote:
SEVEN: There was a chance to contact the Collective. I took advantage of it. Your attempt to assimilated this drone will fail. You can alter our physiology but cannot change our nature. We will betray you. We are Borg.


seven uses the word assimilate for a process that doesn't involve nanoprobes.

here's another from voyager episode "child's play"

Quote:
JANEWAY: Come in.
SEVEN: I'd like the data you've collected on Icheb's species so I can prepare him for reassimilation.
JANEWAY: Maybe we could refer to it as getting reacquainted with his family.
SEVEN: If you prefer.


the word assimilation is used here too but no mention of having to use nanoprobes to do it. In fact, the term assimilation is constantly used in the history of mankind and we don't use nanotechnology in the real world.

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 Post subject: Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars PostPosted: 2011-03-13 05:51am
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Darthy, do you know what "equivocation" is? You're guilty of it. In this vs. scenario we're talking about the Borg's ability to assimilate SW tech, we're not talking about cultural assimilation, Borg propaganda or any somesuch. That's irrelevant and a fucking Red Herring to boot.

Do you want to look like a dishonest prick?



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 Post subject: Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars PostPosted: 2011-03-13 06:03am
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darthy wrote:
Stofsk wrote:
darthy wrote:
data was assimilated by the borg in episode "descent part 1"
No he wasn't. Do you even know what you're fucking talking about?
Yeah he was man. Assimilated as in "to bring into conformity with the customs, attitudes, etc., of a group, nation, or the like; adapt or adjust".
Here's the dialogue
Quote:
CROSIS: You are not like the others. You do not have to be destroyed. You can be assimilated.
DATA: I do not wish to be assimilated.
CROSIS: Resistance is futile. You will not resist what you've wanted all your life.
What exactly are you trying to prove with this piece of dialogue? That Crosis threatened Data with assimilation?
darthy wrote:
Then data betrays the crew. Data was linked into that collective at this point. He didn't have borg parts all over his body but he was still assimilated.
Underlined the lie. None of the Borg in Descent were linked to the Collective. Have you seen Descent, part II? Lore explains...
Descent, part II wrote:
LORE: Look at them. Look at what I've helped them become. They're no longer mindless automatons. They're passionate. Alive.
TROI:Are you saying you caused them to become individuals?
LORE:No. You and your friends did that. All I did was clean up the mess you made when that Borg you befriended returned to his ship.
DATA:Hugh interfaced with the others and transferred his sense of individuality to them. It almost destroyed them.
In a later scene, it is explained that the Borg are able to hear each other's thoughts (Crosis reports Goval to Lore for breaking his connection), but it is quite clear that these rogue Borg are not functioning as a hive mind. Each is an individual, with what equates to a telepathic link to the others.
Check out what Hugh had to say about it:
Hugh wrote:
Before my experience on the Enterprise, the Borg were a singleminded collective. The voices in our heads were smooth and flowing. But after I returned, the voices began to change. They became uneven... discordant.
For the first time, individual Borg had differing ideas about how to proceed.
We couldn't function. Some Borg fought each other. Others simply shut themselves down. Many starved to death.
So tell me again, how Data was assimilated into the Collective? What fucking Collective? This was a group of individual Borg, under the direct leadership of Lore.
Data was also under Lore's control, because he was using his emotion chip to manipulate him. If you wish to dispute this, I'll happily provide quotes to back it up, but I'm not wasting any more space on it right now.
The Borg certainly did not know everything that Data knew, so you can stop trying to loosen the definition of 'assimilate'. All your examples using 7 of 9 only demonstrate her having a badly stunted vocabulary. The quote from VOY:'The Gift' refers to humans 'assimilating' her, FFS!
darthy wrote:
Data could have put a protection device on his off switch in certain combat situations. If picard knew where data's off switch was and knew of this protection device, it might explain why the borg didn't bother trying to shut him off.
It might, if you hadn't just invented it yourself.
darthy wrote:
Plus it's possible to have knowledge but not think to apply it in certain situations.
Really? The RAWR UNSTOPPABLE!!!1!!11 Borg, not adapting, innovating, and using knowledge at their disposal? :wtf: Are we still talking about the same Borg?
darthy wrote:
Locutis called data a primative artificial organism. The primary borg collective may just have no interest in androids for their own reasons.
Which is why the Borg Queen was trying to assimilate Data in FC. :roll:
darthy wrote:
Wes shows that nanoprobes in general on star trek have the potential to assimilate artificial lifeforms.
Yeah! Wes' nanoprobes! Which were made years before the Borg's! They still failed to do it in FC! Explain that! :lol:

In fact, considering that Wes' nanoprobes can control Data (which the Borg can't do) and Voyager's nanoprobes can fuck over S8472 9which the Borg couldn't do) it's pretty safe to say that Borg nanotech is actually pretty inferior to Federation nanotech. :wtf: Who would've guessed that one?

Metahive wrote:
In this vs. scenario we're talking about the Borg's ability to assimilate SW tech, we're not talking about cultural assimilation, Borg propaganda or any somesuch.
Actually, we're supposed to be talking about what the GFFA could do about the Borg accquiring the DSII through Divine InterventionTM.
I've already suggested three different options, and darthy hasn't adressed any of them yet.



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 Post subject: Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars PostPosted: 2011-03-13 06:21am
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Darthy's talking the whole time about how awesome and no-limits Borg assimilation of technology is, that's what I was adressing since none of the quotes he brought forward concern the particular method of assimilation we've been talking about the whole time.

Another thing, assimilating the DSII and its crew will not necessarily give the Borg the knowledge on how to cook hypermatter or how to bake durasteel as he asserted at some point. The DSII is a pure military asset, unlike Federation ships who are almost all science/deep-space exploration vessels as well, so it's unlikely it'll have the blueprints of a durasteel forge stored on it. Just like a contemporary CV won't have blueprints of an oil refinery found anywhere on it.



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 Post subject: Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars PostPosted: 2011-03-13 06:36am
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Metahive wrote:
Darthy's talking the whole time about how awesome and no-limits Borg assimilation of technology is, that's what I was adressing since none of the quotes he brought forward concern the particular method of assimilation we've been talking about the whole time.
I understand that, sorry if I came across as confrontational there. I was mostly just trying to steer the conversation back to the original topic. The whole discussion on assimilation was a bit of a red herring, considering there's already been proposals of how to destroy the DSII put forward...

Metahive wrote:
Another thing, assimilating the DSII and its crew will not necessarily give the Borg the knowledge on how to cook hypermatter or how to bake durasteel as he asserted at some point. The DSII is a pure military asset, unlike Federation ships who are almost all science/deep-space exploration vessels as well, so it's unlikely it'll have the blueprints of a durasteel forge stored on it. Just like a contemporary CV won't have blueprints of an oil refinery found anywhere on it.

Yeah, not to mention a distinct lack of mining equipment on board...
Even with it, how will the Borg know where to find meleenium, lommite, carvanium, zersium (spelt it wrong before :oops: ) or even Tibanna gas? The Empire don't store massive libraries of information in all their computers the way the Feds do.



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"That could never happen because super computers." - Stark

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 Post subject: Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars PostPosted: 2011-03-13 07:51am
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darthy wrote:
hmm you must not have seen the borg much. We've seen that when individuals become assimilated that all their knowledges and experiences become part of the collective.
There is no evidence that the transfer of knowledge is complete. The post-assimilation merging of information certainly doesn't seem very efficient, given that the Borg are so often slow to react and respond.

Quote:
Quote:
You have established that the Borg can in certain circumstances learn the technology of another species. Not that this ability is without limits. You have furthermore inadvertently established that they, as Seven says, "came up with nothing." They lack innovation. They're going to have to design an industrial and infrastructural base to power and maintain the Death Star, but they don't have those abilities and have abandoned research and development.

Doesn't look good.
The borg are a species based on technology and improving themselves through other species technology. The star wars galaxy would be the perfect place for them to thrive. If there was a realistic limit to assimilation, the federation would not have been so obsessed with keeping 29th century technology away from them.
This does not in any way, shape or form address my point. Your last point, furthermore, is completely baffling. It contains not a shred of logic. You might as well have said 'Bread and cheese is good, therefore meringue is better.'


Quote:
They didn't fall immediately. It took many bullets to take them down. Perhaps it was a bullet in a non-armored area which got them down also.
Bullshit. You're making the same mistake as your claim of a supposed weak spot on the drone Worf killed, when the drone had its arm chopped off and a broad blade cleaving straight into its spine. I.e., you're close to outright lying. There's no evidence for what you claim, so you feebly move the goal posts, trying to twist your observations into something, anything, that might help your cause.

Quote:
Quote:
Interestingly, you forget to mention not only that these were Federation nanoprobes, but that Data allowed the nanoprobes to speak through him. There was no control allowed that he didn't permit, meaning you're verging on dishonesty in your argument.
let's see...

Quote:
WORF: If they have control of a Starfleet Commander, they become an even greater threat.
PICARD: How can we be sure we can get them out of you?
DATA: It would be a considerable risk, sir, but it would also represent a gesture of trust on our part. It could be an important step toward peace, sir.


yup sounds like a very controlled situation
In other words, I was completely correct; it was in fact you trying to pass off this situation as being analogous to Borg assimilation when the actual events involved Data inviting these nanobots into his body and opening his systems to them. The fact that he then could well have had problems throwing them out is in no way equivalent; the fact is still that he let them in.

I shouldn't have to explain this to you. It's so basic a child could grasp it. Exactly how old are you?



"Travelers with closed minds can tell us little except about themselves."
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 Post subject: Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars PostPosted: 2011-03-13 10:07am
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Quote:
Darthy, do you know what "equivocation" is? You're guilty of it. In this vs. scenario we're talking about the Borg's ability to assimilate SW tech, we're not talking about cultural assimilation, Borg propaganda or any somesuch. That's irrelevant and a fucking Red Herring to boot.

Do you want to look like a dishonest prick?


Assimilation in the strictest sense does not require nanoprobes though. A neural transceiver placed at the base of the skull can link a person to the collective. We saw the borg were going to do it to Janeway and Tuvok in episode "scorpian part 2" and it was done to chakotay in episode "unity".

Quote:
What exactly are you trying to prove with this piece of dialogue? That Crosis threatened Data with assimilation?


That data was assimilated by that collective.

Quote:
Underlined the lie. None of the Borg in Descent were linked to the Collective. Have you seen Descent, part II? Lore explains...


I didn't say "the Collective", I said "that collective". Its possible to have borg collectives outside of the collective. Here's the proof for that:

from voyager episode "shattered"

Quote:
SEVEN: There are only two of you. If I were to assimilate you into a small Borg collective, you could then assimilate others. The work would proceed more rapidly.


from voyager episode "collective"

Quote:
MEZOTI: We're a Collective.
SEVEN: A collective of five on a vessel normally run by five thousand. What makes you think you'll survive?

...

LEADER: No. The drone is part of our Collective.
ICHEB: Not if it dies.



voyager episode "scorpion part 1"

Quote:
CHAKOTAY: I was linked to a Collective once, remember? I had a neuro-transceiver embedded in my spine. I know who we're dealing with. We've got to get rid of that last Borg and take our chances alone


voyager episode "survival instinct"

Quote:
THREE OF NINE: We found we'd been linked together somehow
FOUR OF NINE: We were a subset within the Collective
TWO OF NINE: It's like having three voices whispering in one ear
THREE OF NINE: And a crowd screaming in the other
FOUR OF NINE: We had to break free, so we worked together. We finally escaped.
TWO OF NINE: We had our implants removed on Inavar Prime.
THREE OF NINE: But they couldn't break the neural link.


so it's possible to have collectives which are not part of "the Collective". I would think this would be obvious but let me know if you still don't get it since it's important you understand this point to understand the others.

Quote:
So tell me again, how Data was assimilated into the Collective? What fucking Collective? This was a group of individual Borg, under the direct leadership of Lore.
Data was also under Lore's control, because he was using his emotion chip to manipulate him. If you wish to dispute this, I'll happily provide quotes to back it up, but I'm not wasting any more space on it right now.
The Borg certainly did not know everything that Data knew, so you can stop trying to loosen the definition of 'assimilate'. All your examples using 7 of 9 only demonstrate her having a badly stunted vocabulary. The quote from VOY:'The Gift' refers to humans 'assimilating' her, FFS!


Those borg drones were still linked together as a borg collective. Going back to the earlier quote, why else would Crosis threaten assimilation if there was nothing for data to be assimilated into? Hugh refereed to collective before it got changed from a "single-minded collective" but still a collective. http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Borg_Collective refers to these as a "minor collectives".

Quote:
It might, if you hadn't just invented it yourself.


doesn't matter if I thought it up, it could still be the reality (genetic fallacy on your part)

Quote:
Which is why the Borg Queen was trying to assimilate Data in FC.

In fact, considering that Wes' nanoprobes can control Data (which the Borg can't do) and Voyager's nanoprobes can fuck over S8472 9which the Borg couldn't do) it's pretty safe to say that Borg nanotech is actually pretty inferior to Federation nanotech. Who would've guessed that one?



The queen was trying to assimilate data to obtain the encryption codes, she had no interest in data as stated in this dialogue:

Quote:
DATA: I understand that you have no real interest in me. That your goal is to obtain the encryption codes for the Enterprise computer.


Quote:
Really? The RAWR UNSTOPPABLE!!!1!!11 Borg, not adapting, innovating, and using knowledge at their disposal? Are we still talking about the same Borg?


Okay nothing in first contact says how "The Collective" would perform when it comes to assimilating data. After the borg traveled back in time they had to establish a collective among themselves as stated in this dialogue:

Quote:
PICARD: The first thing they'll do in engineering is establish a collective, a central point from which they can control the hive. The problem is if we begin firing particle weapons in engineering there's a risk we may hit the warp core. I believe our goal should be to puncture one of the plasma coolant tanks. Data?


We see in the movie how this minor collective performs and presumably its not as well as the Collective would perform. They are using the collective knowledge from few hundred drones instead of the trillions they had back in the 24th century.

Another factor working against them is the destruction of the cube and sphere whose resources could have helped assimilate data more efficiently.

We see dialogue from the movie addressing the issue of whether data can be assimilated here:

Quote:
DATA: Your efforts to break the encryption code will not be successful. Nor will your attempt to assimilate me into your collective.
BORG QUEEN (OC): Brave words. I've heard them before from thousands of species across thousands of worlds ...since long before you were created. But now they are all Borg.
DATA: I am unlike any lifeform you have encountered before. The code stored in my neural net cannot be forcibly removed.
BORG QUEEN (OC): You are an imperfect being created by an imperfect being. Finding your weaknesses is only a matter of time.


the borg don't agree that data can't be assimilated. The borg queen as the expert on the borg states it just takes time.

The borg had less than a day to try to assimilate data before picard stopped them from getting any further. Although they didn't fully assimilate data as a compliant drone, this is what they were able to do:
-give data flesh capable of letting him feel sensations like pain, pleasure, cold, touch
-activate data's emotion chip against his will
-linked data to the hive mind (evidence by picard being able to hear data call out to him)
-data admitted he was tempted by the queens offer

I'd call this progress. If they had made absolutely no progress then maybe you would have some sort of rudimentary point there. But the lesson I learn from the movie is that most likely data can be assimilated if the borg were to try at their best. Data's technological level is comparable to droids in star wars so if the borg can assimilate data then the technology in star wars isn't too advanced for them to handle.

Quote:
There is no evidence that the transfer of knowledge is complete. The post-assimilation merging of information certainly doesn't seem very efficient, given that the Borg are so often slow to react and respond.


there's plenty of evidence to support this:

from voyager episode "Mortal Coil"

Quote:
SEVEN: None. When a drone is damaged beyond repair it is discarded, but it's memories continue to exist in the Collective consciousness. To use a human term, the Borg are immortal.
TUVOK: You are no longer part of the Collective. You are mortal now like the rest of us. Does that disturb you?
SEVEN: My connection to the Borg has been severed, but the Collective still possesses my recollections, my experiences. In a sense, I will always exist.


from "best of both worlds part 2"

Quote:
PICARD [on viewscreen]: The knowledge and experience of the human Picard is part of us now. It has prepared us for all possible courses of action. Your resistance is hopeless, Number One.

...

RIKER: We should also see if there's some way that we can neutralise their forcefields. We've got to let them know that we can adapt too, Mister Worf. We're no longer just fighting the Borg, we're fighting the life experience they've stolen from Captain Picard. Now how the hell do we defeat an enemy that knows us better than we know ourselves?

...

GUINAN: And the Borg know everything he knows. It's time to throw that book away


voyager episode "dark frontier"

Quote:
SEVEN: While I was regenerating, you assimilated my memories.
QUEEN: Our thoughts are one.
SEVEN: Then you already possess all of my knowledge. What more do you want?


voyager episode "drone"

Quote:
SEVEN: You will not be harmed. Resistance is futile. I am providing it with instructions. It understands. The drone is probing my neural pathways. It is trying to assimilate all of my knowledge. I cannot disengage the link. Terminate interface! You must comply, you are hurting me.


Quote:
This does not in any way, shape or form address my point. Your last point, furthermore, is completely baffling. It contains not a shred of logic. You might as well have said 'Bread and cheese is good, therefore meringue is better.'


sure it does. Borg nanoprobes were able to assimilate technology 500 years into the future. Voyager made sure the Collective didn't get their hands on One because they knew the Collective could assimilate it.

Quote:
Bullshit. You're making the same mistake as your claim of a supposed weak spot on the drone Worf killed, when the drone had its arm chopped off and a broad blade cleaving straight into its spine. I.e., you're close to outright lying. There's no evidence for what you claim, so you feebly move the goal posts, trying to twist your observations into something, anything, that might help your cause.


picard shot a machine gun at the drones for quite a long time before they fell. It's unclear how well their armor performed since we didn't see where all the bullets hit. Imagine taking a machine gun to a police officer for about 20 seconds and then the police officer finally falls down dead. Does that prove the police officers bullet proof vest doesn't stop bullets?

Quote:
In other words, I was completely correct; it was in fact you trying to pass off this situation as being analogous to Borg assimilation when the actual events involved Data inviting these nanobots into his body and opening his systems to them. The fact that he then could well have had problems throwing them out is in no way equivalent; the fact is still that he let them in.


you said there was no control allowed that he didn't permit. Once the nanoprobes entered his body he lost control. The only thing he allowed was for them to be placed on his skin, the nanoprobes did the rest.

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 Post subject: Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars PostPosted: 2011-03-13 10:35am
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In all your quoting, you're yet to produce a single line to suggest that Data was linked with Lore's Borg and not simply being manipulated by Lore.

darthy wrote:
doesn't matter if I thought it up, it could still be the reality (genetic fallacy on your part)
:finger: Fuck off. Unless you're Rick Berman, you don't decide what does or doesn't exist in the Star Trek canon.

Now drop your piss-weak red herring arguments about whether or not the Borg assimilated Data (which they didn't) and do something about defending your stupid green Death Star (That is what this thread was meant to be about, remember?). I've rammed it (multiple times now) with the Sun Crusher. Are you going to do something about that?



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"That could never happen because super computers." - Stark

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 Post subject: Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars PostPosted: 2011-03-13 10:55am
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Quote:
Quote:
There is no evidence that the transfer of knowledge is complete. The post-assimilation merging of information certainly doesn't seem very efficient, given that the Borg are so often slow to react and respond.


there's plenty of evidence to support this:

from voyager episode "Mortal Coil"

Quote:
SEVEN: None. When a drone is damaged beyond repair it is discarded, but it's memories continue to exist in the Collective consciousness. To use a human term, the Borg are immortal.
TUVOK: You are no longer part of the Collective. You are mortal now like the rest of us. Does that disturb you?
SEVEN: My connection to the Borg has been severed, but the Collective still possesses my recollections, my experiences. In a sense, I will always exist.
That is not evidence that the transfer of knowledge is complete. It is hearsay indicating, at best, that some knowledge is retained.

Quote:
Quote:
PICARD [on viewscreen]: The knowledge and experience of the human Picard is part of us now. It has prepared us for all possible courses of action. Your resistance is hopeless, Number One.


That is not evidence that the transfer of knowledge is complete. It is hearsay indicating, at best, that some knowledge is retained.


Quote:
RIKER: We should also see if there's some way that we can neutralise their forcefields. We've got to let them know that we can adapt too, Mister Worf. We're no longer just fighting the Borg, we're fighting the life experience they've stolen from Captain Picard. Now how the hell do we defeat an enemy that knows us better than we know ourselves?


This is speculation from a guy who in this situation cannot be objective. That is not evidence that the transfer of knowledge is complete. It is hearsay indicating, at best, that some knowledge is retained.

Quote:
GUINAN: And the Borg know everything he knows. It's time to throw that book away


This is Guinan engaging in hyperbole. That is not evidence that the transfer of knowledge is complete. It is hearsay indicating, at best, that some knowledge is retained.

Quote:
Quote:
SEVEN: While I was regenerating, you assimilated my memories.
QUEEN: Our thoughts are one.
SEVEN: Then you already possess all of my knowledge. What more do you want?


This is Seven of Nine being emotional. It is not a scientific context whatsoever; it is hearsay. That is not evidence that the transfer of knowledge is complete. It is hearsay indicating, at best, that some knowledge is retained.

Quote:
Quote:
SEVEN: You will not be harmed. Resistance is futile. I am providing it with instructions. It understands. The drone is probing my neural pathways. It is trying to assimilate all of my knowledge. I cannot disengage the link. Terminate interface! You must comply, you are hurting me.


The same. That is not evidence that the transfer of knowledge is complete. It is hearsay indicating, at best, that some knowledge is retained.

It would appear you don't understand the meaning of the word "evidence".


Also, I note that you ignored the point about infrastructure entirely. You didn't answer it in any way, shape or form, breezily claiming that "they'd be able to thrive" as if this is a replacement for fuel and specialized parts.



Quote:
Quote:
This does not in any way, shape or form address my point. Your last point, furthermore, is completely baffling. It contains not a shred of logic. You might as well have said 'Bread and cheese is good, therefore meringue is better.'


sure it does. Borg nanoprobes were able to assimilate technology 500 years into the future. Voyager made sure the Collective didn't get their hands on One because they knew the Collective could assimilate it.
You invent capability out of thin air. "Look, Borg nanoprobes could infest and glean some knowledge from civilian technology that for all we know carries its own fucking blueprints and reference library. That must mean they can do anything to any technology ever."

Take a long hard look at that summary. That's your argument, and no less stupid than your other claims.

Quote:
picard shot a machine gun at the drones for quite a long time before they fell.
Which is a complete red herring.

Quote:
It's unclear how well their armor performed since we didn't see where all the bullets hit. Imagine taking a machine gun to a police officer for about 20 seconds and then the police officer finally falls down dead. Does that prove the police officers bullet proof vest doesn't stop bullets?
Actually, given that there are recorded instances of unarmored perps taking entire clips of bullets and failing to go down, you still haven't proven anything. "Armor" implies that it's actually functional armor, not just that exposed metal bits may occasionally mitigate a hit.


Quote:
you said there was no control allowed that he didn't permit. Once the nanoprobes entered his body he lost control. The only thing he allowed was for them to be placed on his skin, the nanoprobes did the rest.
And again, you feebly attempt to obfuscate. Let's review, shall we? You claim Data was being controlled by nanoprobes, when the context was Borg assimilation. We then discover that Data allowed these not-actually-Borg nanoprobes inside him and let them have this control, without engaging any defences or doing anything other than helping them. You have no idea what Data did in his own software and systems to help the process along, although we know from FC that Data is no slouch at locking down systems.

Even so, if you actually read what you quoted, you'll note that there was no proof whatsoever that they actually did have any control aside from that. Hence the word "if". Data says that "gee, if I let them inside me, maybe they'll be able to stay." That doesn't say anything about systemic control.

Which you know, of course. Given all that you've written, it's pretty clear that you're not even pretending honesty any more.



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 Post subject: Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars PostPosted: 2011-03-13 12:25pm
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Darth Tedious wrote:
In all your quoting, you're yet to produce a single line to suggest that Data was linked with Lore's Borg and not simply being manipulated by Lore.

darthy wrote:
doesn't matter if I thought it up, it could still be the reality (genetic fallacy on your part)
:finger: Fuck off. Unless you're Rick Berman, you don't decide what does or doesn't exist in the Star Trek canon.

Now drop your piss-weak red herring arguments about whether or not the Borg assimilated Data (which they didn't) and do something about defending your stupid green Death Star (That is what this thread was meant to be about, remember?). I've rammed it (multiple times now) with the Sun Crusher. Are you going to do something about that?


:lol: you guys are the ones that brought up this data stuff though. I didn't say the off switch protector existed. I said it could exist, we don't know. You can't say it doesn't only because I suggested that it might.

Here are some bones since you're starting to act like someone on the rag

Quote:
In all your quoting, you're yet to produce a single line to suggest that Data was linked with Lore's Borg and not simply being manipulated by Lore.


Crosis transmitted some kind of signal to data while he was in the brig then manipulated data into leaving with the conversation they had. All the other dialogue however indicates that Lore is the one that was controlling data by sending out some kind of signal to affect his positronic matrix.

Quote:
It would appear you don't understand the meaning of the word "evidence".


star trek dialogue is considered evidence in canon, you're confusing evidence with proof I think.

After looking at more dialogue I think the answer to the question of complete knowledge transfer is "yes and no". Yes they do transfer all knowledge but they get rid of a lot of useless knowledge afterward.

Here's the "yes" part:

Quote:
EMH: This is your neural pattern. The memory engrams and synaptic pathways that define you as an individual. Unfortunately, you're not alone. Thirteen new neural patterns have emerged in your cerebral cortex. Klingon, Vulcan, Terrelian, Human and several others I can't identify.
SEVEN: How?
EMH: They're coming from within you. During your time with the Borg, the Collective assimilated hundreds of different species. All of those neural patterns were integrated into the Hive Mind.
SEVEN: Of course.
EMH: That means they're in your mind too, stored within your cortical implants. Dormant until now.
JANEWAY: From what we can tell the various neural patterns are surfacing randomly.
EMH: In essence, you've developed the Borg equivalent of Multiple Personality Disorder.


Neural patterns are the equivalent of our complete consciousness. It's the data representation of brain structure / neural network. In deep space nine episode "Our Man Bashir" the neural patterns of the crew were transferred to the computer memory of the station. Then later they put the neural pattern back with their physical patterns bring them back. So neural pattern = all knowledge just so we're clear.

here's the "no" part:

voyager episode "The Omega Directive"

Quote:
KIM: I was Borg. That's what you always say but what does it mean? You've got the knowledge of ten thousand species in your head?
SEVEN: Not exactly. Each drone's experiences are processed by the Collective. Only useful information is retained.


Quote:
Also, I note that you ignored the point about infrastructure entirely. You didn't answer it in any way, shape or form, breezily claiming that "they'd be able to thrive" as if this is a replacement for fuel and specialized parts.


Na, I touched on that back on page two. I said they would use replicator technology and have nanoprobes do their repair work. Drones can also do any repairs necessary. Since I've assumed that the death star's entire crew of some million crew were assimilated, this would mean that the borg have all the knowledge they need to run the station. In the long run, if the borg need replacement parts that cannot be replicated or artificially created then they would have to seek them out. They would do this by sending out the ships they have aboard the death star and either obtain the raw materials themselves or assimilate someone else that has the materials already. The borg are good at taking care of themselves like this.

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 Post subject: Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars PostPosted: 2011-03-13 12:35pm
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Quote:
Now drop your piss-weak red herring arguments about whether or not the Borg assimilated Data (which they didn't) and do something about defending your stupid green Death Star (That is what this thread was meant to be about, remember?). I've rammed it (multiple times now) with the Sun Crusher. Are you going to do something about that?


Assuming the empire just happens to have a sun crusher, I'd use the death star's tractor beams to capture the sun crusher and then assimilate it before it even got close to ramming. The death star can outrun a super nova so the sun crusher wouldn't be able to destroy the death star with its main weapon either.

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 Post subject: Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars PostPosted: 2011-03-13 12:39pm
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Where's your evidence the Death Star can outrun a supernova?

Incidentally, yet-more "no limits assimilation" shit. What makes you think the Borg can assimilate the Sun Crushers even more wankish tech? Like the quantum-crystalline armour or whatever it is?

Off-topic, I'm astounded this thread made it to 4 pages.



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 Post subject: Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars PostPosted: 2011-03-13 12:56pm
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Eternal_Freedom wrote:
Where's your evidence the Death Star can outrun a supernova?

Incidentally, yet-more "no limits assimilation" shit. What makes you think the Borg can assimilate the Sun Crushers even more wankish tech? Like the quantum-crystalline armour or whatever it is?

Off-topic, I'm astounded this thread made it to 4 pages.


The death star has hyperdrives on it. It traveled from Alderaan to Yavin IV, thousands of light years, in just a few hours. Super nova's travel slow in comparison. The enterprise D was able to outrun super novas on many occasions such as in the movie star trek generations. So the death star can outrun a super nova. If the borg couldn't assimilate it, then I would use the tractor beam to move the sun crusher in front of the death stars super laser and give it a few zaps.

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 Post subject: Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars PostPosted: 2011-03-13 01:08pm
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The only time we have seen ships trying to escape the Sun Crushers weapon was a pair of Star Destroyers under the command of Admiral Daala. (I think it was the Gorgon and the Basilisk). Those ships where fleeing at sublight, they couldn't immdeiately jump to lightspeed. The Gorgon did, only once it got far enough away.

Now, the DS2 is a lot more sluggish than a Star Destroyer.

At least your "grab with tractor beams" idea is sensible.



"I could be bounded in a nutshell and count myself a king of infinite space, were it not that I have bad dreams" - Hamlet

"Bones' remedies for problems seems to revolve around giving his patients a prescription of heavy drugs, booze, or taking them to strip clubs. He is either insane, a drug addict, or the best damn Doctor in Starfleet!" - SFDebris

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 Post subject: Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars PostPosted: 2011-03-13 02:16pm
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darthy wrote:
Quote:
It would appear you don't understand the meaning of the word "evidence".
star trek dialogue is considered evidence in canon, you're confusing evidence with proof I think.

Only in conjunction with a point, otherwise they are red herrings. I'm not confusing the two terms, because only an inveterate troll would fail to understand -- on purpose -- what I meant. And three, you have yet to show evidence of actual thought.

Quote:
After looking at more dialogue I think the answer to the question of complete knowledge transfer is "yes and no". Yes they do transfer all knowledge but they get rid of a lot of useless knowledge afterward.

<snip>

Neural patterns are the equivalent of our complete consciousness.
Proof of this wild speculation?

Quote:
It's the data representation of brain structure / neural network. In deep space nine episode "Our Man Bashir" the neural patterns of the crew were transferred to the computer memory of the station. Then later they put the neural pattern back with their physical patterns bring them back. So neural pattern = all knowledge just so we're clear.
Proof that this was solely what was transferred during that incident 'just so we're clear'?

Quote:
here's the "no" part:

voyager episode "The Omega Directive"

Quote:
KIM: I was Borg. That's what you always say but what does it mean? You've got the knowledge of ten thousand species in your head?
SEVEN: Not exactly. Each drone's experiences are processed by the Collective. Only useful information is retained.


Thank you. Case closed, then, since all that I needed to show was that you were wrong; the Borg don't keep all information -- which was obvious already, of course -- as you earlier asserted. It's quite possible that they only consider information that they can comprehend or that is an extension of the current Borg tech (which would jive with Federation future-tech, as that stuff isn't so far beyond current Borg tech as to be magical) to be "useful."


Quote:
Quote:
Also, I note that you ignored the point about infrastructure entirely. You didn't answer it in any way, shape or form, breezily claiming that "they'd be able to thrive" as if this is a replacement for fuel and specialized parts.


Na, I touched on that back on page two. I said they would use replicator technology and have nanoprobes do their repair work.


Which is a complete red herring as well, and no more useful than trying to create microchips by having ants build them.

Quote:
Drones can also do any repairs necessary.
Oh? "Any" repairs? Proof, once again, of this insanely optimistic speculation?


Quote:
Since I've assumed that the death star's entire crew of some million crew were assimilated, this would mean that the borg have all the knowledge they need to run the station. In the long run, if the borg need replacement parts that cannot be replicated or artificially created then they would have to seek them out. They would do this by sending out the ships they have aboard the death star and either obtain the raw materials themselves or assimilate someone else that has the materials already. The borg are good at taking care of themselves like this.


You begin to understand my point. Once again, though, it's not that simple. The Death Star is dependent on an infrastructure. You can't just steal stuff piecemeal - this would be like someone stealing a tank division and then trying to raid nearby petrol stations for gasoline. Also, of course, you may prove to me that the Borg, masters of "if it didn't work the last time, try it again and again," are good at effecting a complex scheme of military logistics.



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 Post subject: Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars PostPosted: 2011-03-13 03:38pm
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So he finally figured out what I was talking about back on page 1 huh?



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 Post subject: Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars PostPosted: 2011-03-13 07:10pm
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darthy wrote:
:lol: I didn't say the off switch protector existed. I said it could exist, we don't know. You can't say it doesn't only because I suggested that it might.
You're making a completely unsupported claim, the burden of evidence lies on you to prove that it does exist. Otherwise, it is nothing more than worthless speculation on your part.

darthy wrote:
Assuming the empire just happens to have a sun crusher,
What assumption? They have one. It was built around the same time as the DS1 and kept at The Maw installation. Unlike you, I'm using canonical information instead of making things up.
darthy wrote:
I'd use the death star's tractor beams to capture the sun crusher and then assimilate it before it even got close to ramming.
Is there some part of 'superluminal velocity' that you fail to understand? :wtf:



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 Post subject: Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars PostPosted: 2011-03-13 08:14pm
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I don't think there's much in the way of evidence for what happens to the object being rammed FTL, really. We know the ship doing the ramming dies, that's all. If hyperspace ramming were that efficient a weapon everybody would be doing it.



'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kids with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'

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 Post subject: Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars PostPosted: 2011-03-13 08:47pm
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Quote:
Quote:
Neural patterns are the equivalent of our complete consciousness.


Proof of this wild speculation?


sure here http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Synaptic_pattern

Quote:
Proof that this was solely what was transferred during that incident 'just so we're clear'?


Quote:
EDDINGTON: I've found them. All five of their physical patterns are in here and they're stable.
ODO: Why here?
EDDINGTON: The holosuite is specifically designed to store highly complex energy patterns. The computer's processing their physical patterns as if they were holosuite characters. Trouble is, I'm not reading any neural energy.
ROM: Neural energy has to be stored at the quantum level. The holosuite can't handle that.
ODO: So if their physical bodies are stored here, where are their brain patterns?
QUARK: Everywhere else. Their brain patterns are so large that they're taking up every bit of computer memory on the station. Replicator memory, weapons, life supports.

...

EDDINGTON: From what we can tell, Quark was right. The computer has stored the neural energy patterns of everyone on the runabout throughout the entire station.
QUARK: Don't everyone thank me at once.
ROM: What we need to do is re-integrate their neural patterns with their physical patterns from the holosuite and rematerialise them.


Quote:
Thank you. Case closed, then, since all that I needed to show was that you were wrong; the Borg don't keep all information -- which was obvious already, of course -- as you earlier asserted. It's quite possible that they only consider information that they can comprehend or that is an extension of the current Borg tech (which would jive with Federation future-tech, as that stuff isn't so far beyond current Borg tech as to be magical) to be "useful."


na, case re-opened, if they can't comprehend certain information they would still classify it as something that could be considered useful in the future.

Quote:
Which is a complete red herring as well, and no more useful than trying to create microchips by having ants build them.

Oh? "Any" repairs? Proof, once again, of this insanely optimistic speculation?


isn't it optimistic that the borg would have need of repairs that are absolutely necessary in order to win? Since you haven't provided proof that such repairs exist yourself. We are talking about maintaining the repairs of station in a long term situation by which time would have already lost countless battles with the death star and gotten more of their ships and army assimilated that the borg wouldn't need the death star by the time the battles were over.

Quote:
You're making a completely unsupported claim, the burden of evidence lies on you to prove that it does exist. Otherwise, it is nothing more than worthless speculation on your part.


nope. My claim was that maybe it exists. This is a fact that maybe it exists as far as we know. It would be an unsupported claim if I said it definitely existed or definitely did not exist.

Quote:
What assumption? They have one. It was built around the same time as the DS1 and kept at The Maw installation. Unlike you, I'm using canonical information instead of making things up.


it got sucked into a black hole plus it was completely forgotten about and worked on in secret. We have to assume that this death star was taken over during the time where the sun crusher existed. We'd have to assume that someone would know it existed to use it. Then we have to assume they will use a battle strategy of using the sun crusher to ram would be used.

Quote:
Is there some part of 'superluminal velocity' that you fail to understand?


the part where it got destroyed by the death star's mass shadow in hyperspace assuming its nav computers even allowed you to try it.

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 Post subject: Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars PostPosted: 2011-03-13 11:44pm
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darthy wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
Neural patterns are the equivalent of our complete consciousness.
Proof of this wild speculation?
sure here http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Synaptic_pattern
From the link you provided:
Memory Alpha wrote:
Since memories, thought patterns, and aspects of personality are encoded in this pattern, it is often considered to represent a person's consciousness.
Aspects of personality? How exactly is that complete? Considered to represent a person's consciousness? How is that equivalent to complete consciousness? Do you have reading difficulties?

darthy wrote:
Quote:
You're making a completely unsupported claim, the burden of evidence lies on you to prove that it does exist. Otherwise, it is nothing more than worthless speculation on your part.
nope. My claim was that maybe it exists.
Your unsupported claim. That 'maybe it exists'. With absolutely no supporting evidence.
darthy wrote:
This is a fact that maybe it exists as far as we know.
It is an unsupported claim that it may exist. As far as we know, it does not. Do you understand what a fact is?
darthy wrote:
It would be an unsupported claim if I said it definitely existed or definitely did not exist.
So it was worthless speculation.

darthy wrote:
We have to assume that this death star was taken over during the time where the sun crusher existed.
You may want to specify a time period for your scenario.
darthy wrote:
We'd have to assume that someone would know it existed to use it.
It was forgotten because the Empire was defeated. Your scenario necessarily assumes the Empire won the Battle of Endor, thus defeating the Rebellion.

darthy wrote:
Quote:
Is there some part of 'superluminal velocity' that you fail to understand?
the part where it got destroyed by the death star's mass shadow in hyperspace assuming its nav computers even allowed you to try it.
Maybe you should have said that instead of claiming you were going to capture it with a tractor beam. Clearly you had no idea what superluminal velocity meant. I'm glad you bothered to look it up in the meantime.

Batman wrote:
I don't think there's much in the way of evidence for what happens to the object being rammed FTL, really. We know the ship doing the ramming dies, that's all. If hyperspace ramming were that efficient a weapon everybody would be doing it.
There is an example of what happens when a ship decelerating from hyperspace rams another ship, from the incident when Admiral Griff's three ISDs hit the Executor. It lost shields and suffered minor damage. Which is roughly equilvalent to what would have happened if they had rammed it at STL. The same tactic would be fairly effective with the Sun Crusher, given its ramming ability.



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 Post subject: Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars PostPosted: 2011-03-14 12:22am
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Quote:
Aspects of personality? How exactly is that complete? Considered to represent a person's consciousness? How is that equivalent to complete consciousness? Do you have reading difficulties?


Without having a lengthy philosophical discussion, we are our brains. Our knowledge and everything else is contained within our brain. Our neural patterns are what make up our brain. This is how they are able to put someone in a transporter buffer (TNG "relics") or other storage device indefinitely and bring them back again later. If it wasn't a complete transfer they wouldn't be able to do that.

Quote:
Your unsupported claim. That 'maybe it exists'. With absolutely no supporting evidence.


There's supporting evidence that data can make modifications to himself like being able to activate his dream program at night or making himself a floation device in the event of a water landing. If we move away from the tv shows, in st novel Imzadi it says data had his deactivation switch disabled.

In voyager episode "eye of the needle"

Quote:
JANEWAY: What if I gave you control over your deactivation sequence?
EMH: I beg your pardon?
JANEWAY: I’m sure we can make it possible for you to turn yourself off, or to prevent being turned off.


we see this kind of thing has been thought of with the EMH. Data could have had changed his deactivation switch before first contact. Maybe after the episode "the game". That's what I would do if I were him.

This is supporting evidence that it's theoretically possible that data did this. So now it's a supported claim that maybe he did. Riggght?...

Putting this into perspective, you only mentioned this point because it was said that if the borg had complete knowledge of data from assimilating picard then the borg would have tried to turn data off while in combat with him. Since it's already established that this was a small collective, it doesn't prove anything either way as far as knowledge transfers go. It's not relavent anymore whether data his off switch disabled. Plus data's dead now anyway.

Quote:
So it was worthless speculation.


it was alternative explanations to explain why the borg didn't try to turn it off.

Quote:
You may want to specify a time period for your scenario.


okay, a time period after the sun crusher was destroyed. Pulling out the sun crusher every time a sw fan feels intimidated gets old. Been there done that.

Quote:
It was forgotten because the Empire was defeated. Your scenario necessarily assumes the Empire won the Battle of Endor, thus defeating the Rebellion.


na it was forgotten even before the empire was defeated. Even the emperor wasn't aware of it.

Quote:
Maybe you should have said that instead of claiming you were going to capture it with a tractor beam. Clearly you had no idea what superluminal velocity meant. I'm glad you bothered to look it up in the meantime.


I was responding to your post where you only said:

Quote:
I've rammed it (multiple times now) with the Sun Crusher. Are you going to do something about that?


you mentioned superluminal velocity back on a previous page (a post which I gave no attention to and didn't know you even made until I went back and looked). I was just responding to your sun crusher ramming technique the second time you mentioned it. If you said superluminal velocity on your second post, I would have mentioned it.

Quote:
There is an example of what happens when a ship decelerating from hyperspace rams another ship, from the incident when Admiral Griff's three ISDs hit the Executor. It lost shields and suffered minor damage. Which is roughly equilvalent to what would have happened if they had rammed it at STL. The same tactic would be fairly effective with the Sun Crusher, given its ramming ability.


It's not equivalent. Your suggestion is that it rams the death star while at faster than light speed where it would be in hyperspace still at this point.

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 Post subject: Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars PostPosted: 2011-03-14 12:42am
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I'm not sure what the issue is here.

You could give a retarded three year old the Death Star II and they would wreak havoc with it - the same is true of the Borg. Eventually, they'll be defeated, but it'll probably cost a few planets and many lives.

In any case, this entire thread is darthy's tacit admission that Wars womps Trek, regardless of what he might say in his necroing of other threads.



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 Post subject: Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars PostPosted: 2011-03-14 01:00am
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SancheztheWhaler wrote:
I'm not sure what the issue is here.

You could give a retarded three year old the Death Star II and they would wreak havoc with it - the same is true of the Borg. Eventually, they'll be defeated, but it'll probably cost a few planets and many lives.

In any case, this entire thread is darthy's tacit admission that Wars womps Trek, regardless of what he might say in his necroing of other threads.


The death star was constructed to destroy any remaining opposition in the galaxy. Assuming it does what it was designed to do, I think this one's a win for the borg. You said eventually they'll be defeated but how? The main arguments i've heard was to put your fingers in your ears and hum "this can't happen" then try to turn it into a borg vs death star II instead. I think this kind of avoidance of the issue at hand shows that they know the borg would win in a situation like this. Hardcore sw fans tend to have a superiority complex when it comes to sw vs st stuff. They believe that it's impossible for st to win regardless of the situation. That's the way it appears to me anyway. :?

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 Post subject: Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars PostPosted: 2011-03-14 01:06am
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The issue is that the Empire had an already-established logistics base to supply its military with arms and fuel and other supplies, which would also cover the Death Star for operations. The problem with your scenario is that the Borg would have no way to take advantage of this logistics base unless it either A) sets course for some out-of-the-way part of the galaxy and starts setting up one for its own use or B) somehow takes advantage of the Empire's pre-existing base by conquering/assimilating planet by planet using the DS as the tip of the spear.

The problem with A) is that they would still be vulnerable to the Imperial fleet, as even the Rebellion had difficulty accomplishing this, and the problem with B) is that by going on the offensive all-out right off the bat, they would make themselves even more vulnerable. The DS is not immune from attack, just incredibly resilient. But even if it and the Borg prevail in the first dozen battles, without a logistics base it can't repair and rearm and resupply, and because the DS is just one very large and powerful capital ship, doesn't mean it can be everywhere at once - so any planets that get assimilated will be vulnerable to counter-attack by the rest of the Imperial fleet.



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 Post subject: Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars PostPosted: 2011-03-14 01:12am
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Stofsk wrote:
The issue is that the Empire had an already-established logistics base to supply its military with arms and fuel and other supplies, which would also cover the Death Star for operations. The problem with your scenario is that the Borg would have no way to take advantage of this logistics base unless it either A) sets course for some out-of-the-way part of the galaxy and starts setting up one for its own use or B) somehow takes advantage of the Empire's pre-existing base by conquering/assimilating planet by planet using the DS as the tip of the spear.

The problem with A) is that they would still be vulnerable to the Imperial fleet, as even the Rebellion had difficulty accomplishing this, and the problem with B) is that by going on the offensive all-out right off the bat, they would make themselves even more vulnerable. The DS is not immune from attack, just incredibly resilient. But even if it and the Borg prevail in the first dozen battles, without a logistics base it can't repair and rearm and resupply, and because the DS is just one very large and powerful capital ship, doesn't mean it can be everywhere at once - so any planets that get assimilated will be vulnerable to counter-attack by the rest of the Imperial fleet.


the death star can just pull in every ship the imperial fleet sends much like how borg ships do. The borg then takes over this ship, subtracting a ship from the empire's side and adding it to the borg's. Eventually it just becomes a numbers game against the empire.

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