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 Post subject: Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars PostPosted: 2011-03-12 01:11pm
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Metahive wrote:
Seven's quote means nothing because it's been contradicted on screen. Also, if they can assimilate neutronium, why don't they use it?

Quote:
The doctor said that the tubules are capable of penetrating any known alloy or energy field. Since neutronium is a known alloy, I don't see any problem here

How "known" would durasteel be for them? There you go. Durasteel isn't all neutronium you know.


True that's an unknown alloy to the borg huh. But neutronium is 10 billion times stronger than steel whereas durasteel is only 300,000 times stronger than steel.

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 Post subject: Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars PostPosted: 2011-03-12 01:22pm
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Where did you get that first figure from?`

Also, you can hem and haw as much as you want, fact is that canon doesn't show the Borg as being able to handle neutronium. That Iconians and the Think Tank managed to do so doesn't mean the Borg get that knowledge by default, that's just Borgwank.



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 Post subject: Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars PostPosted: 2011-03-12 01:30pm
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Seven's quote means nothing because it's been contradicted on screen. Also, if they can assimilate neutronium, why don't they use it?


It's a big galaxy, maybe they do somewhere. They may also not be able to artificially produce the material in large amounts.

The species 8472 thing doesn't contradict what seven said as I see it. The nanoprobes get zapped before they make contact with Species 8472's technology. Seven's talking about being able to utilize the technology once the nanoprobes are able to make contact with it. This is a perfect example because once the nanoprobes were reprogrammed to avoid from getting zapped, they were able to assimilate the cells no problem. The doctor designed the nanoprobes to denaturate along with the cell afterward.

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 Post subject: Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars PostPosted: 2011-03-12 01:35pm
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I ask again, where did you get the "neutronium is 9 billion times stronger than steel" info from?

You ignore once again that the Borg were unable to tune their nanoprobes that way by themselves which means your example is irrelevant for a scenario were they have to rely on their own resources. Do I also have to break out the "assimilate HMS Victory (you know, Nelson's flagship)" example out to prove Seven's line to be hyperbole? You also ignore that the Borg are in canon not capable of handling neutronium, so you can forget about them reproducing durasteel now.



People at birth are naturally good. Their natures are similar, but their habits make them different from each other.
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Saddam’s crime was so bad we literally spent decades looking for our dropped monocles before we could harumph up the gumption to address it
-User Indigo Jump on Pharyngula

O God, please don't let me die today, tomorrow would be so much better!
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 Post subject: Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars PostPosted: 2011-03-12 01:44pm
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Metahive wrote:
Where did you get that first figure from?`

Also, you can hem and haw as much as you want, fact is that canon doesn't show the Borg as being able to handle neutronium. That Iconians and the Think Tank managed to do so doesn't mean the Borg get that knowledge by default, that's just Borgwank.


http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&biw=1419&bih=666&q=neutronium+%22stronger+than+steel%22&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&oq= googled

but if this knowledge is common place in star wars, it wouldn't be that hard to aquire for themselves. With most technology there is a process involved like gathering the raw materials, refining it, knowing how to put it together, having the knowledge to understand how it works. I see nothing in this process which would be beyond the borg's ability to duplicate from the minds of others or reverse engineering the technology itself. If it were something mystical like being able to make a force storm sure they may never be able to do that but technology is right up their alley. It would be out of character for the borg to approach advanced technology and not even bother trying to assimilate it since it looks too complicated to understand that the nanoprobes can't make heads or tails of it.

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 Post subject: Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars PostPosted: 2011-03-12 01:53pm
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darthy wrote:
but if this knowledge is common place in star wars, it wouldn't be that hard to aquire for themselves. With most technology there is a process involved like gathering the raw materials, refining it, knowing how to put it together, having the knowledge to understand how it works.


All right. This should be easy to prove. I'd like you to build a CPU equivalent to a Motorola 68000 processor from out of raw materials. You have 6 months, ten people to help you, and you're permitted any amount of 19th century technology you'd like (i.e. vacuum tubes and possibly primitive lithography). You'll have all the information that the Internet can give you, and if you don't want to use the 19th century equipment we give you, you're welcome to create more modern transistors and the like by yourself.

You're not going to be able to do this. Why? Because you don't have the industrial base, nor access to the components and manufacturing machinery we take for granted, nor education in the necessary fields.

It would be the same thing for anyone transported from today to Star Trek. Sure, we could learn to service existing technology - swap out chips, clean tubes, draw cables, and so on. But we wouldn't be able to understand it on a deeper level. It's the same with the Borg and Imperial tech. The Borg aren't magical beings, and given that they don't appear to innovate at all post-assimilation, to rely on them making the intuitive leaps they'd need to surmount such a huge tech disadvantage doesn't seem prudent.



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Last edited by Eleas on 2011-03-12 01:54pm, edited 1 time in total.
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 Post subject: Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars PostPosted: 2011-03-12 01:54pm
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O, so you're talking about "RL" neutronium. I'm sorry to inform you that unlike what several pseudoscience sites want to tell you, actual Earth science isn't even sure how "neutronium" would work and even what's it actually composed of (other than "neutrons in some way"), so any speculations about its strength are just that, idle speculations. Therefore you better scrunch up some in-universe numbers as to how strong ST/SW neutronium is supposed to be because that is what matters here.

Even if the Borg mystically acquired the knowledge, how would that help them? They still would have to mine and refine it somehow and as has been said already, durasteel isn't just neutronium anyway.



People at birth are naturally good. Their natures are similar, but their habits make them different from each other.
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Saddam’s crime was so bad we literally spent decades looking for our dropped monocles before we could harumph up the gumption to address it
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 Post subject: Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars PostPosted: 2011-03-12 01:56pm
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Argh. Me and my big mouth. I misread the tangent entirely. :oops:



"Travelers with closed minds can tell us little except about themselves."
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 Post subject: Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars PostPosted: 2011-03-12 02:37pm
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Metahive wrote:
O, so you're talking about "RL" neutronium. I'm sorry to inform you that unlike what several pseudoscience sites want to tell you, actual Earth science isn't even sure how "neutronium" would work and even what's it actually composed of (other than "neutrons in some way"), so any speculations about its strength are just that, idle speculations. Therefore you better scrunch up some in-universe numbers as to how strong ST/SW neutronium is supposed to be because that is what matters here.

Even if the Borg mystically acquired the knowledge, how would that help them? They still would have to mine and refine it somehow and as has been said already, durasteel isn't just neutronium anyway.


Okay here's in canon information about neutronium strength:

From deep space nine episode "what you leave behind"

Quote:
GARAK: I'm afraid it's a rather large problem. The cargo door is made of neutronium.
KIRA: Then the explosives we brought aren't even going to make a dent.
GARAK: You see the problem.


deep space nine episode "to the death"

Quote:
WEYOUN: The central structure is composed of solid neutronium. Even a direct hit from a quantum torpedo wouldn't necessarily destroy our objective.


star trek the next generation episode "relics"

Quote:
PICARD: Mister Worf, can we use the phasers to open a hole in the sphere?
WORF: No, sir. The exterior shell is composed of carbon neutronium. Our weapons would be ineffective.


the original series "the doomsday machine"

Quote:
KIRK: Ninety seven point eight three five. Will it be powerful enough to destroy that thing out there?

[Bridge]

SPOCK: Negative, Captain. Its hull is pure neutronium. There is no known way of blasting through it.


voyager episode "think tank"

Quote:
JANEWAY: We've got a puzzle and we're not leaving this room until we solve it. The Think Tank is out there somewhere, hiding in subspace. How do we find them? And even if we can, their ship's hull is neutronium-based alloy, impervious to our weapons. How do we capture them?


Assuming we take the doctor at his word about the borg being able to penetrate a material like this and let's say current science is wrong about the strength of neutronium by a factor of a few million making it at best only slightly better than durasteel, they should still be able to handle this.

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 Post subject: Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars PostPosted: 2011-03-12 03:01pm
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Do you know what all those quotes are missing? Objective numerical values. That makes them rather worthless since it means we don't know how strong neutronium is vis-a-vis durasteel. Also, forget about it, in RL there's no objective measure for how durable neutronium is because it's not even yet been classified as an element so pop/pseudoscientific speculation is equally worthless. O, and I accept your concession on the whole "Borg have no way of collecting, refining and applying durasteel to repair any sustained damage due to lack of inrastructure and knowledge" issue that originally caused this tangent to crop up, I just take your silence on it as such.



People at birth are naturally good. Their natures are similar, but their habits make them different from each other.
-Sanzi Jing (Three Character Classic)

Saddam’s crime was so bad we literally spent decades looking for our dropped monocles before we could harumph up the gumption to address it
-User Indigo Jump on Pharyngula

O God, please don't let me die today, tomorrow would be so much better!
-Traditional Spathi morning prayer

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 Post subject: Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars PostPosted: 2011-03-12 07:55pm
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Did they at least manage to avoid the blunder of that 'neutronium' cargo door being able to be moved by hand? :D
Not that I see what you'd want a neutronium cargo door for. Sure, it's the next best thing to impermeable. It's also the next best thing to impossible to open or close, which are, you know, the primary functions of a door, and you can easily go around it if you have to by simply cutting through the walls (unless those are also neutronium, which would give us some very interesting mass figures :D



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 Post subject: Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars PostPosted: 2011-03-12 08:16pm
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Incidentally darthy, the "to the Death" quote doesn't work either, because Weyoun says it would not necessarily destory the objective. In other words, it might blow it up, bu it isn't a certainty.

The same is true for the "What you leave behind" and "Think Tank" quote, when they say "our weapons will be ineffective" that just means the weapons they have available right now won't work.



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 Post subject: Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars PostPosted: 2011-03-12 08:49pm
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Quote:
Incidentally darthy, the "to the Death" quote doesn't work either, because Weyoun says it would not necessarily destory the objective. In other words, it might blow it up, bu it isn't a certainty.

The same is true for the "What you leave behind" and "Think Tank" quote, when they say "our weapons will be ineffective" that just means the weapons they have available right now won't work.


they could possibly mean that, you still have to explain away the other dialogues though. If my computer case were made of durasteel that doesn't mean dropping out of my window wouldn't damage the internal components anyway.

Metahive wrote:
Do you know what all those quotes are missing? Objective numerical values. That makes them rather worthless since it means we don't know how strong neutronium is vis-a-vis durasteel. Also, forget about it, in RL there's no objective measure for how durable neutronium is because it's not even yet been classified as an element so pop/pseudoscientific speculation is equally worthless. O, and I accept your concession on the whole "Borg have no way of collecting, refining and applying durasteel to repair any sustained damage due to lack of inrastructure and knowledge" issue that originally caused this tangent to crop up, I just take your silence on it as such.


What a coincidence, your arguments lack any objective values as well. You say assimilation has limits yet there's no telling what these limits are making this, as you call it, idle speculation on your part. Let's say that species A, knows how to artificiallly create material B. The borg need only assimilate species A to know how to synthesize material B. At that point they may even make durasteel part of their own body structure if they found it worthy enough. Plus even if they weren't able to cut into durasteal, they could just beam their nanoprobes through it with transporter technology. The borg are known for being able to adapt and being able to assimilate anything they get their hands on. Its safe to say that the borg have this ability to assimilate star wars technology if they already assimilated the death star II as is assumed in this scenario.

As I stated earlier, I had a feeling the main defense to this scenario is to question how they can get to this point instead of how to deal with them once they do. There should exist a critical point where once the borg have assimilated enough star wars technology that nothing stands much of a chance against them afterward. If this point isn't at the death star, it can't be too far off. As a general rule of thumb, I don't make concessions unless I state that I have like "you're right that..." or "i conceed that...". This is a classic mistake in debates like this I've noticed (point45). Never just assume i've made them just because I didn't address the point, didn't address it to your satisfaction, or didn't feel it was a point worth debunking. I may be sleeping or at work and not available to answer at the moment.

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 Post subject: Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars PostPosted: 2011-03-12 09:22pm
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darthy wrote:
What a coincidence, your arguments lack any objective values as well. You say assimilation has limits yet there's no telling what these limits are making this, as you call it, idle speculation on your part.

You obviously don't know how this works. We absolutely know what those limits are. Namely, anything the Borg have managed to assimilate. Which decidedly doesn't include Wars technology.
Quote:
Let's say that species A, knows how to artificiallly create material B. The borg need only assimilate species A to know how to synthesize material B.

How about you show evidence for that.
Quote:
At that point they may even make durasteel part of their own body structure if they found it worthy enough.

When they couldn't be arsed to armour their drones against KE/momentum throughout all of Star Trek. The term 'No' comes to mind. Presupposes they can ever a)find out how to make and b) find the means TO make durasteel to begin with.
Quote:
Plus even if they weren't able to cut into durasteal, they could just beam their nanoprobes through it with transporter technology.

Which is why they routinely beam over nonoprobes instead of sending over Drones to inject them mechanically...oh wait! And we ll know transporters work perfectly well through shields.
Quote:
The borg are known for being able to adapt and being able to assimilate anything they get their hands on.

As long as it's technology considerably inferior to or at best on par to their own.
Quote:
Its safe to say that the borg have this ability to assimilate star wars technology if they already assimilated the death star II as is assumed in this scenario.

So basically you're admitting they couldn't outside a 'Q/Trelaine/ROB/Valen gave it to them' scenario.
Quote:
As I stated earlier, I had a feeling the main defense to this scenario is to question how they can get to this point instead of how to deal with them once they are.

If the only way they could get to that point is Divine Intervention, that says something about your scenario right there and then.
Quote:
There should exist a critical point where once the borg have assimilated enough star wars technology that nothing stands much of a chance against them afterward.

Not for any reasonable scenario, no. Presupposes they can assimilate Star Wars technology to begin with. They didn't become unstoppable in Trek, which not only has hopelessly inferior technology than Wars but is by and large reigned by complete and utter morons.
Quote:
As a general rule of thumb, I don't make concessions unless I state that I have like "you're right that..." or "i conceed that...". This is a classic mistake in debates like this I've noticed (point45). Never just assume i've made them just because I didn't address the point, didn't address it to your satisfaction, or didn't feel it was a point worth debunking. I may be sleeping or at work and not available to answer at the moment.

Or it may simply have been because you didn't know how to address the point.



'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kids with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'

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 Post subject: Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars PostPosted: 2011-03-12 09:47pm
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darthy wrote:
As a general rule of thumb, I don't make concessions unless I state that I have like "you're right that..." or "i conceed that...". This is a classic mistake in debates like this I've noticed (point45). Never just assume i've made them just because I didn't address the point, didn't address it to your satisfaction, or didn't feel it was a point worth debunking. I may be sleeping or at work and not available to answer at the moment.
The fact that you've been here, and still not addressed the point doesn't help your case.

darthy wrote:
Its safe to say that the borg have this ability to assimilate star wars technology if they already assimilated the death star II as is assumed in this scenario.
Of course, it's a pretty damn stupid assumption. As has been said, how the fuck would the Borg have done this, without switching on God Mode?

darthy wrote:
There should exist a critical point where once the borg have assimilated enough star wars technology that nothing stands much of a chance against them afterward.
Such a point would exist. Actually getting to it without making assumptions like "RAWR!!!11!!!ONE GOD MODE WILL GIVE US TEH DEATH STAR!!!shift+1" is another matter entirely.

darthy wrote:
As I stated earlier, I had a feeling the main defense to this scenario is to question how they can get to this point instead of how to deal with them once they do
I've already provided a few suggestions, you haven't addressed any of them.

EDIT: Batman beat me to a lot of what I was saying. Underlined the main thing he didn't bring up.



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 Post subject: Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars PostPosted: 2011-03-12 10:07pm
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darthy wrote:
The borg are known for being able to adapt and being able to assimilate anything they get their hands on.
I call bullshit! Does the name Data mean anything to you?



"Darth Tedious just showed why women can go anywhere they want because they are, in effect, mobile kitchens." - RazorOutlaw

"That could never happen because super computers." - Stark

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 Post subject: Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars PostPosted: 2011-03-12 10:18pm
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Or Species 8472. I mean they totally assimilated them. Oh wait.
The Borg have a pretty sad track record for assimilating species up to/below their own tech level but they're going to assimilate Star Wars because...Darthy says so.



'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kids with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'

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 Post subject: Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars PostPosted: 2011-03-12 10:34pm
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I'm willing to overlook S8472 because their tech is biowank. But Data was a machine, built with known (and readily available) materials, made by a species with which the Borg already had experience.

Kind of blows the 'no-limits-to-assimilation' theory out the window.



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"That could never happen because super computers." - Stark

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 Post subject: Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars PostPosted: 2011-03-12 10:35pm
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You obviously don't know how this works. We absolutely know what those limits are. Namely, anything the Borg have managed to assimilate. Which decidedly doesn't include Wars technology.


And we don't know everything that the borg managed to assimilate except more species than any shown on star trek and for thousands of centuries.

Quote:
How about you show evidence for that.


sure here from "I Borg":

Quote:
Lt. Commander Geordi La Forge: Part of what we do is learn more about other species.
Third of Five: We assimilate species. Then we know everything about them.


I'm pretty sure everything would include how to create durasteal :wink:

from voyager episode "The Gift"

Quote:
TORRES: What about these linkages. Every time I pull one out another one comes back in it's place.
SEVEN: Autonomous regeneration sequencers. They function to counteract resistance.
KIM: Amazing. How did you come up with the pattern duplication design?
SEVEN: We came up with nothing. The Borg assimilated this technology in Galactic Cluster three from species two five nine.

...

KIM: I'll start here. You said the Borg got this stuff from species two five nine. Who are they? Guess the Borg meet a lot of people, don't they? Stupid question. So, what's it like out there in Galactic Cluster three?
SEVEN: Beyond your comprehension.
KIM: Try me.
SEVEN: Galactic Cluster three is a transmaterial energy plane intersecting twenty two billion omnicordial life forms.
KIM: Ah. Interesting.


They obtain new technology from species unlike their own. Their entire existence is dependant on learning from new species and new technology with a goal of perfection. That's why most people would just take it as a given that if a drone encounter with star wars technology would look something like this:

Image

Quote:
When they couldn't be arsed to armour their drones against KE/momentum throughout all of Star Trek. The term 'No' comes to mind. Presupposes they can ever a)find out how to make and b) find the means TO make durasteel to begin with.


In all of star trek, really? the 29th century borg had reactive body armour, multidimensional adaptability, and Internal transporter nodes. The doctor also states the borg have body armour in episode "the gift". Body armour by its very nature protects against momentum.

Quote:
Which is why they routinely beam over nonoprobes instead of sending over Drones to inject them mechanically...oh wait! And we ll know transporters work perfectly well through shields.


... My guess is you must not know what adapt means.

Quote:
1. (often foll by to) to adjust (someone or something, esp oneself) to different conditions, a new environment, etc.
2. (tr) to fit, change, or modify to suit a new or different purpose


we saw the borg queen was going to use this strategy in voyager episode "Dark Frontier".

Quote:
As long as it's technology considerably inferior to or at best on par to their own.


They wouldn't have been able to reach the level they're at now if this were the case.

Quote:
So basically you're admitting they couldn't outside a 'Q/Trelaine/ROB/Valen gave it to them' scenario.


I'm admitting that the scenario is already set up as are every other vs scenario. I could talk all day about countless situations which brought it to this point but its irrelavent since it wouldn't change where the scenario is at. The setting takes place where the borg have a fully assimilated deathstar II. That's all there is too it. Assimilated sw tech is a given obviously.

Quote:
If the only way they could get to that point is Divine Intervention, that says something about your scenario right there and then.


The only way to get to any sw vs st scenario is divine intervention though, they're two seperate franchises. That's all it says to me.

Quote:
Not for any reasonable scenario, no. Presupposes they can assimilate Star Wars technology to begin with. They didn't become unstoppable in Trek, which not only has hopelessly inferior technology than Wars but is by and large reigned by complete and utter morons.


Sure they became unstoppable before. In the next generation episode "Parallels", there was a quantum reality where the borg destroyed the federation.

Quote:
Or it may simply have been because you didn't know how to address the point.


I think so, I just don't think people like the conclusions. But even in that case, that's not considered a concession by an opposing view.

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 Post subject: Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars PostPosted: 2011-03-12 10:39pm
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Darth Tedious wrote:
I'm willing to overlook S8472 because their tech is biowank. But Data was a machine, built with known (and readily available) materials, made by a species with which the Borg already had experience.

Kind of blows the 'no-limits-to-assimilation' theory out the window.


Data was taken over by nanoprobes in star trek next generation episode "evolution".

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 Post subject: Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars PostPosted: 2011-03-12 11:00pm
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Jaina Dax
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darthy wrote:
sure here from "I Borg":

Quote:
Lt. Commander Geordi La Forge: Part of what we do is learn more about other species.
Third of Five: We assimilate species. Then we know everything about them.


I'm pretty sure everything would include how to create durasteal :wink:
Oh dear lord. If that were evidence, I'll direct you to the episode Scorpion, Part Two. Specifically, the part where S-8947 says "Your galaxy will be purged."

So sorry. The Borg will never be able to take over the Death Star. Going by your own take on canon, they're all going to be killed by S-8947. A character said so, and off-the-cuff statements of characters must be treated as broadly as possible, and considered completely literally true in every respect.

Which is why the Borg will fail even if they do manage to leave the Milky Way in time, of course. Don't you remember Palpatine shouting "POWER! Unlimited POWER!"? His power is unlimited. He said so himself. Obviously.


Quote:
Quote:
TORRES: What about these linkages. Every time I pull one out another one comes back in it's place.
SEVEN: Autonomous regeneration sequencers. They function to counteract resistance.
KIM: Amazing. How did you come up with the pattern duplication design?
SEVEN: We came up with nothing. The Borg assimilated this technology in Galactic Cluster three from species two five nine.


They obtain new technology from species unlike their own. Their entire existence is dependant on learning from new species and new technology with a goal of perfection. That's why most people would just take it as a given that if a drone encounter with star wars technology would look something like this:
You have established that the Borg can in certain circumstances learn the technology of another species. Not that this ability is without limits. You have furthermore inadvertently established that they, as Seven says, "came up with nothing." They lack innovation. They're going to have to design an industrial and infrastructural base to power and maintain the Death Star, but they don't have those abilities and have abandoned research and development.

Doesn't look good.


Quote:
In all of star trek, really? the 29th century borg had reactive body armour, multidimensional adaptability, and Internal transporter nodes. The doctor also states the borg have body armour in episode "the gift". Body armour by its very nature protects against momentum.
It cannot protect against bullets, which is the relevant point being discussed, i.e. that armour that doesn't fill the function of armour isn't... armour.

<snip inanity>

darthy wrote:
Data was taken over by nanoprobes in star trek next generation episode "evolution".


Interestingly, you forget to mention not only that these were Federation nanoprobes, but that Data allowed the nanoprobes to speak through him. There was no control allowed that he didn't permit, meaning you're verging on dishonesty in your argument.



"Travelers with closed minds can tell us little except about themselves."
--Chinua Achebe

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 Post subject: Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars PostPosted: 2011-03-12 11:03pm
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Jedi Master
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darthy wrote:
Body armour by its very nature protects against momentum.
Yep. That explains why Worf was able to kill a drone using a fucking knife. :wanker:

darthy wrote:
I could talk all day about countless situations which brought it to this point but its irrelavent since it wouldn't change where the scenario is at.
Oh, really? You haven't been able to come up with a single one so far.

darthy wrote:
... My guess is you must not know what adapt means.
Apparently neither do the Borg. They consistantly fail to do it. Species 8472 had destroyed over 400 cubes, and they still fly in with the same "Resistance is futile" speech. No sign of adaption there.

darthy wrote:
Sure they became unstoppable before. In the next generation episode "Parallels", there was a quantum reality where the borg destroyed the federation.
Wait, so you're saying the Borg are unstoppable because they beat the Federation in one possible reality out of how many? Having one chance in a thousand of beating the Federation falls spectacularly short of 'unstoppable'. And when I say one chance in a thousand, I'm being decidedly generous.

darthy wrote:
Data was taken over by nanoprobes in star trek next generation episode "evolution".
Yeah. Too bad they weren't Borg ones, you almost had a point! :lol: Remember, First Contact happened after TNG. Either Borg nanoprobes are inferior to Wes', or Data :shock: adapted and became immune to them! :mrgreen:

Are you going to even attempt to address, or (Valen help us) refute the strategies that have already been suggested?



"Darth Tedious just showed why women can go anywhere they want because they are, in effect, mobile kitchens." - RazorOutlaw

"That could never happen because super computers." - Stark

"Don't go there girl! Talk to the VTOL cause the glass canopy ain't listening!" - Shroomy

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 Post subject: Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars PostPosted: 2011-03-12 11:26pm
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Padawan Learner

Joined: 2011-03-11 10:23am
Posts: 185
Quote:
Oh dear lord. If that were evidence, I'll direct you to the episode Scorpion, Part Two. Specifically, the part where S-8947 says "Your galaxy will be purged."

So sorry. The Borg will never be able to take over the Death Star. Going by your own take on canon, they're all going to be killed by S-8947. A character said so, and off-the-cuff statements of characters must be treated as broadly as possible, and considered completely literally true in every respect.

Which is why the Borg will fail even if they do manage to leave the Milky Way in time, of course. Don't you remember Palpatine shouting "POWER! Unlimited POWER!"? His power is unlimited. He said so himself. Obviously.


hmm you must not have seen the borg much. We've seen that when individuals become assimilated that all their knowledges and experiences become part of the collective.

Quote:
You have established that the Borg can in certain circumstances learn the technology of another species. Not that this ability is without limits. You have furthermore inadvertently established that they, as Seven says, "came up with nothing." They lack innovation. They're going to have to design an industrial and infrastructural base to power and maintain the Death Star, but they don't have those abilities and have abandoned research and development.

Doesn't look good.


The borg are a species based on technology and improving themselves through other species technology. The star wars galaxy would be the perfect place for them to thrive. If there was a realistic limit to assimilation, the federation would not have been so obsessed with keeping 29th century technology away from them.

Quote:
It cannot protect against bullets, which is the relevant point being discussed, i.e. that armour that doesn't fill the function of armour isn't... armour.


They didn't fall immediately. It took many bullets to take them down. Perhaps it was a bullet in a non-armored area which got them down also.

Quote:
Interestingly, you forget to mention not only that these were Federation nanoprobes, but that Data allowed the nanoprobes to speak through him. There was no control allowed that he didn't permit, meaning you're verging on dishonesty in your argument.


let's see...

Quote:
WORF: If they have control of a Starfleet Commander, they become an even greater threat.
PICARD: How can we be sure we can get them out of you?
DATA: It would be a considerable risk, sir, but it would also represent a gesture of trust on our part. It could be an important step toward peace, sir.


yup sounds like a very controlled situation

Quote:
Yep. That explains why Worf was able to kill a drone using a fucking knife.


sure on the side of the drone's exposed neck

Quote:
Oh, really? You haven't been able to come up with a single one so far.


okay, some species assists the borg in adapting their assimilation technics so that they can assimilate sw tech assuming they can't already.

Quote:
I'm willing to overlook S8472 because their tech is biowank. But Data was a machine, built with known (and readily available) materials, made by a species with which the Borg already had experience.


data was assimilated by the borg in episode "descent part 1"

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 Post subject: Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars PostPosted: 2011-03-12 11:29pm
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Emperor's Hand
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darthy wrote:
data was assimilated by the borg in episode "descent part 1"

No he wasn't. Do you even know what you're fucking talking about?



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 Post subject: Re: Fully Built Borg Assimilated Death Star II vs Star Wars PostPosted: 2011-03-12 11:51pm
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Jedi Master
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Joined: 2011-01-16 09:48pm
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darthy wrote:
hmm you must not have seen the borg much. We've seen that when individuals become assimilated that all their knowledges and experiences become part of the collective.
Too bad they don't use them. Picard knew where Data's off switch was, yet in multiple instances of Borg drones engaging Data in hand-to-hand combat, none of them switched him off, even when they had ample oppportunity to do so.

darthy wrote:
yup sounds like a very controlled situation
Again, too bad those weren't Borg nanoprobes. The fact that Wes could do something the Borg can't only speaks further of their incompetence.

darthy wrote:
They didn't fall immediately. It took many bullets to take them down. Perhaps it was a bullet in a non-armored area which got them down also.

darthy wrote:
sure on the side of the drone's exposed neck.
Yeah! Great adaption that shows! They leave critically vulnerable areas exposed! Tell me again what the point of having armour is?

darthy wrote:
okay, some species assists the borg in adapting their assimilation technics so that they can assimilate sw tech assuming they can't already.
Okay. Who?

darthy wrote:
data was assimilated by the borg in episode "descent part 1"
Joining Lore to lead a band of renegade Borg runaways isn't being assimilated. Where were the implants? The nanoprobes? At the very least, the radical reprogramming of his neural net?
Oh, that's right! None of that happened! He was under the influence of Lore, who was using his emotion chip as a means of manipulation.

You must be assuming that we haven't seen Trek or something, to be trying to pull bullshit like this...



"Darth Tedious just showed why women can go anywhere they want because they are, in effect, mobile kitchens." - RazorOutlaw

"That could never happen because super computers." - Stark

"Don't go there girl! Talk to the VTOL cause the glass canopy ain't listening!" - Shroomy

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