Defending the Federation(RAR)

The Romulan Republic · Post by **The Romulan Republic** » 2011-03-11 04:24am

Metahive wrote: Slavery isn't useful for the Empire, that's why they have droids.

Yet they use it.

Metahive · Post by **Metahive** » 2011-03-11 04:37am

Even then, they have a pool sufficiently big enough for their needs, no need to undertake an arduous occupation of the ST galaxy just for this purpose.

The most cost-effective option for the Empire would be to assert suzerenity over the ST galaxy, that means the ST powers promise to never take up arms against the Empire or support its enemies and pay regular tribute and in turn the Empire will leave them alone.

Darth Tedious · Post by **Darth Tedious** » 2011-03-11 06:11am

Metahive wrote:Slavery isn't useful for the Empire, that's why they have droids.

Not true. Slavery was extensively employed in the construction of the Death Star. The Empire actually declassified Wookiees, Sullustians and Mon Calamari as sentient races for the express purpose of legalising their enslavement. That said, the Empire has a human-centric policy, so the humans of the Federation could take comfort in the knowledge that they would be killed rather than enslaved.

Carinthium wrote:Both knowledge of human nature and SW canon suggest that even Imperial soldiers have consciences. Given the massive number of personell on a Star Destroyer, word is likely to leak back of massacres.

Are you suggesting that the morale of Imperial Stormtroopers would be decreased by decimating their enemies? Can you give any canon souces to back that up?

Carinthium wrote:The gurellias would live off the land, by earning money like civilians or stealing what they need.

Two problems:
1) The Federation don't use money.
2) Stealing things is pretty quickly going to attract the attention of the local police which, on any occupied world, would be Imperial troops.

Carinthium wrote:If the Emperor ignores the fleet for long enough (which seems in-character), it is possible that techies could be bribed or kidnapped over time until the Federation fleet can at least put up a fight.

Again, the problem of a moneyless society. How do you bribe Imperial technicians? Attempting to kidnap them could prove pretty suicidal. And you're still left with the problem of trying to reverse engineer Imperial technology. SW lasers require SW level energy sources. Say for a second that I'm a bribed/kidnapped Imperial technician. I say "Sure, I'll build you a heavy turbolaser turret to mount on your ship. You just need a hypermatter reactor to supply power to it..." And there you have a problem. Even if you can start producing hypermatter, you need durasteel parts for your reactor and your turret (which is beyond the metallurgy of the Federation). Reverse engineering SW technology for the Federation is highly unrealistic. As for the Empire reverse engineering Federation tech, it may interest you to know that they already have replicators. In SW they're called 'duplicators'. Transporters/teleports are mentioned as being an ancient, lost technology from pre-Republic times that the empire might be interested in recapturing (though, there is at least on example of a working [url=http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Magwit%2 ... fying_hoop]teleport device[url] existing in SW). Holodecks may or may not be of interest. But simply capturing a single ship would suffice for technical data. Trek ships have that whole security issue of storing massive amounts of information in their computers.

And a few other minor points:

Carinthium wrote:Threshold style Warp 10

Even if this episode hadn't been decanonised, a technology that turns your crew members into newts really isn't going to help your chances.

Carinthium wrote:Fourthly, the Empire could probably dock in Federation facilities with some re-vamping.

Not realistically. An ISD is 1600 metres long. Even the largest Starbases in the Federation would require almost complete rebuilds to accomodate Imperial ships (and even then, ships like the Executor Class SSD are bigger than any Starbase I'm aware of, correct me if I'm missing something). Once again, it's less effort to destroy them and build anew than to capture and convert.

Just to address your OP, I would focus all my efforts on attempting to close the wormhole. Anti-space anomaly technobabble is one of the Federation's strong suits, after all.

Metahive · Post by **Metahive** » 2011-03-11 06:17am

Yeah, they used slave labor to build the Death Star and then blew them all up when they were done. Really valuable assets. The point is that procuring slaves can't be a reason for the Empire to occupy the ST galaxy, they have more than enough back home.

Darth Tedious · Post by **Darth Tedious** » 2011-03-11 06:20am

Hey! Just because they were disposable slaves doesn't mean they weren't really useful!

Bah! You edited and added more while I was replying!

Agreed. I figure in the scenario we're discussing, the Empire is is invading... because they can? There's a convenient wormhole and a whole galaxy to conquer. I definitely wouldn't think they'd be too bothered about taking slaves here anyway. All their production is in the GFFA anyway. Until the place is nicely subjugated, they probably wouldn't bother setting up shop here, just occupying territory and annihilating anyone who gets in their way.

Metahive · Post by **Metahive** » 2011-03-11 06:28am

As I said, they should opt for suzerenity. A subjugation would bind too many forces for an indefinite amount of time and there're more pressing problems back home that require the Empire's full attention.

Darth Tedious · Post by **Darth Tedious** » 2011-03-11 08:03am

You're quite right. Subjugated was a poor choice of word.

Metahive · Post by **Metahive** » 2011-03-11 12:57pm

Well, only if the Federation not only finds their end of the wormhole first but also decides to close it ASAP. Please consider they didn't decide to close the Bajoran Wormhole for over two years after encountering the Dominion so I have little faith in that regard.

Post by **Eternal_Freedom** » 2011-03-11 01:13pm

Being the opportunistic bastard that I am, I would contact the Imperials upon first learning of them.

I would protray the Federation as a long-lost colony of mankind, and beg the Empire's help in bringing us back into the fold of human civilisation, and oh, by the way, dealing with these rather frightening techno-zombies and cloned supersoldiers massing on the far side of our galaxy.

Point to the (from the Empire's POV) absurd primitive tech (lack of hyperdrive, lack of droid tech, lack of hypermatter tech, lack of basic medical stuff like Bacta etc) as proof that we need help, that we have struggled on as best we can.

Metahive · Post by **Metahive** » 2011-03-11 01:21pm

The OP wrote:You are being observed by an audience of Stardestroyer.net regulars that is statistically representative to the maximum extent possible (again, RAR)- you obviously can't win, but are playing to impress your audience with how you do rather than any real political or military objectives.

Running away from the challenge is hardly impressive.

Metahive · Post by **Metahive** » 2011-03-11 01:33pm

What's glorious about forfeiting the challenge through undertaking a step you'd only do due to knowledge acquired in advance? Also, it's a wormhole to another inhabited galaxy, something every single federation scientist would sell and arm and a leg for to explore. I would await the council to rebel against an order to close it based on practically nothing but what's look like a gut-feeling.

Rommel123 · Post by **Rommel123** » 2011-03-11 02:17pm

Collapse the wormhole and use it as excuse to militarize - ahem - renew Starfleet.

As for impressing audience... collapse the wormhole - or at least pull of some technobbabble to make wormhole appear unstable from Imperial perspective, militarize Federation to maximum possible level (maybe even developing cloning technology), and wait until wormhole reappears.

The Romulan Republic · Post by **The Romulan Republic** » 2011-03-11 02:23pm

Rommel123 wrote:Collapse the wormhole and use it as excuse to militarize - ahem - renew Starfleet.

As for impressing audience... collapse the wormhole - or at least pull of some technobbabble to make wormhole appear unstable from Imperial perspective, militarize Federation to maximum possible level (maybe even developing cloning technology), and wait until wormhole reappears.

Keep in mind that it is apparently possible to stabilize wormholes so they can't be collapsed (happens to the Bajoran wormhole in Deep Space Nine). Surely the Empire would do just that?

Granted, its a good idea if one can pull it off.

Metahive · Post by **Metahive** » 2011-03-11 02:25pm

Destructionator XIII wrote:Why did Kirk reprogram the Kobayshi Maru test?

Because he was a smarmy, arrogant, shitheaded piece of asspoop who couldn't even a lose a simulated situation and would rather activate god mode like every single cockgobbling cheater? STXI made that more than clear.
Why then not simply reprogram the whole simulation and give the Empire popguns and paper shields if you're already appealing to the Kirk Solution?

They'll change their mind really fast once enemy ships start showing up.

Yeah, because the Empire would surely leave their beachhead unguarded and allow USS Chickenlegs to perform some technobabble on it.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2011-03-11 02:31pm

Metahive wrote:What's glorious about forfeiting the challenge through undertaking a step you'd only do due to knowledge acquired in advance? Also, it's a wormhole to another inhabited galaxy, something every single federation scientist would sell and arm and a leg for to explore. I would await the council to rebel against an order to close it based on practically nothing but what's look like a gut-feeling.

Did you read the OP? The whole scenario is a simulation, you start with knowledge of both sides, and the goal is to defend the Federation as effectively as possible. Closing the wormhole is the only possible path to victory for the Federation, so why in the world wouldn't anyone with any sense try that first? If it doesn't work, fine, then you start going down the list to your other options, but frankly, I'd be pretty disappointed in anyone who didn't try to close the wormhole in his opening move.

Metahive · Post by **Metahive** » 2011-03-11 02:35pm

Red Imperator wrote:Did you read the OP?

I myself wrote:Re: Defending the Federation(RAR)
by Metahive » Today, 20:21

The OP wrote:
You are being observed by an audience of Stardestroyer.net regulars that is statistically representative to the maximum extent possible (again, RAR)- you obviously can't win, but are playing to impress your audience with how you do rather than any real political or military objectives.
Running away from the challenge is hardly impressive.

The Romulan Republic · Post by **The Romulan Republic** » 2011-03-11 02:39pm

Metahive wrote: Yeah, because the Empire would surely leave their beachhead unguarded and allow USS Chickenlegs to perform some technobabble on it.

I just need to get one ship in range, right? If worst comes to worst, I would amass a large fleet (say 1,000 starships, which should be within Federation capability) including a lot of cloaked Klingon ships, and simply throw them at the wormhole and hope one of them gets close enough. Yes, most of the fleet might be obliterated in the process, but in a protracted war I'd probably suffer worse losses to accomplish less.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2011-03-11 02:41pm

Metahive wrote:
Red Imperator wrote:Did you read the OP?

I myself wrote:Re: Defending the Federation(RAR)
by Metahive » Today, 20:21

The OP wrote:
You are being observed by an audience of Stardestroyer.net regulars that is statistically representative to the maximum extent possible (again, RAR)- you obviously can't win, but are playing to impress your audience with how you do rather than any real political or military objectives.
Running away from the challenge is hardly impressive.

Then you're a fuckwit, because actually successfully defending the Federation with a little lateral thinking is a lot more impressive than any possible military outcome.

And wait a minute, isn't your solution just surrender immediately and hope the evil wizard emperor goes easy on you? How the shit is that more impressive than closing the wormhole?

Metahive · Post by **Metahive** » 2011-03-11 02:50pm

RedImperator wrote:Then you're a fuckwit, because actually successfully defending the Federation with a little lateral thinking is a lot more impressive than any possible military outcome.

It's not lateral thinking since you're simply using knowledge that you had to go to no effort whatsoever to obtain and that none of your simulated subjects share. I also already said why the "head" of the federation council (who is not some dictatorial overlord BTW) could not get through with a plan to destroy the wormhole without giving the council a good reason first.

Why don't you read my posts first before spouting off?

And wait a minute, isn't your solution just surrender immediately and hope the evil wizard emperor goes easy on you? How the shit is that more impressive than closing the wormhole?

No, that was Batman's proposal. I proposed that the most cost-effective solution for the Empire would be a sort of suzerenity. Isn't the Federation famous for its diplomatic prowess? The challenge would be to negotiate a favorable deal with the Empire instead of some futile last stand as Carinthium thought.

Metahive · Post by **Metahive** » 2011-03-11 02:59pm

What? I have trouble following you here. Is your plan to have the Klingons divert imperial attention so that USS Chickenlegs can accomplish its mission?

Metahive · Post by **Metahive** » 2011-03-11 03:11pm

That would depend entirely on how important the Empire deems its beachhead to be and how fortified it is by the time USS Gutsychicken and the Klingons arrive. It would also depend on how aggressively the Empire pursued its agenda in the ST Galaxy. If it looks like the Empire can be reasonably bargained with the council won't allow any aggressive measures (unless it's the TOS era Federation, but in this case there wouldn't be any klingon support either). There's also the looming threat that any failure of the USS Gutsychicken would invite massive imperial retaliation alone for the cheek to actually attack imperial military assets.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2011-03-11 03:26pm

Metahive wrote:
RedImperator wrote:Then you're a fuckwit, because actually successfully defending the Federation with a little lateral thinking is a lot more impressive than any possible military outcome.
It's not lateral thinking since you're simply using knowledge that you had to go to no effort whatsoever to obtain and that none of your simulated subjects share. I also already said why the "head" of the federation council (who is not some dictatorial overlord BTW) could not get through with a plan to destroy the wormhole without giving the council a good reason first.

Why don't you read my posts first before spouting off?

I did read your posts. They're terrible. You're essentially proposing that the person in the OP ignore information he has and obey rules that aren't there in order to put on an "interesting" show (i.e., Federation totally loses) for the benefit of...whom? The audience? I mean, there's three possible outcomes here

1. Blow up the wormhole
2. Surrender immediately
3. Surrender after the Empire uses its overwhelming strategic advantaged to stomp the Federation flat

Other than the pew-pew lightshow offered by option 3, which one of these options is actually interesting to the audience? The OP essentially sets up a chess match where black only starts with four pieces, and three of them are pawns. Black found a way to play for stalemate, and now you're bitching about it.

As for where you got the knowledge, who gives a shit? You have it, there's no restrictions on how you use it. I never heard any definition of "lateral thinking" that places special restrictions on how you acquire the knowledge to use it. I would say that if you don't like the fact that it's possible, take it up with the OP, but all that really does is leave you two uninteresting choices.

And wait a minute, isn't your solution just surrender immediately and hope the evil wizard emperor goes easy on you? How the shit is that more impressive than closing the wormhole?
No, that was Batman's proposal. I proposed that the most cost-effective solution for the Empire would be a sort of suzerenity. Isn't the Federation famous for its diplomatic prowess? The challenge would be to negotiate a favorable deal with the Empire instead of some futile last stand as Carinthium thought.

The Federation has absolutely no leverage, which you need if you'd like to engage in "diplomacy", rather than "begging for mercy". Even if the Empire agrees to hands-off suzerenity at first, they can make any demands they want later and there's fuck-all the Federation can do about it. Leaving yourself at the mercy of an evil wizard whose regime murders his own citizens by the billions to make political points is not an optimal outcome.

PS: Just because someone else proposed it doesn't mean that it's not "your solution". It's the one you support, so what's the fucking difference?

Metahive · Post by **Metahive** » 2011-03-11 03:40pm

You're essentially proposing that the person in the OP ignore information he has and obey rules that aren't there in order to put on an "interesting" show (i.e., Federation totally loses) for the benefit of...whom? The audience? I mean, there's three possible outcomes here

What "rules that aren't there"? The OP says your're the "head of the Federation council" and the head of the Fed council (I presume he meant the president) is limited in what he can do by himself. If you had read my posts as you asserted you'd have noticed that I have brought forward reasons why the council won't willy nilly allow the premature destruction of a stable wormhole into another galaxy full of amazing cultures and technology without being given any valid justification and "I just know it's the best course of action" won't do, that would be more liable to get you called off. They are so meek, they didn't blow the bajoran wormhole up right after meeting the Dominion either, remember?
Your advanced foreknowledge is no good unless you can convince your ignorant simulated compatriots that your actions are justified, at least try arguing how you'd go about that.

Holy Jeezus, don't blame me for the OP's poorly thought out scenario.

ETA:
I also said that the Empire can't have any real interest in violently subjugating the ST Galaxy since they have nothing that they might want and nothing they could threaten them with (aside from rogue SW elements establishing independent powerbases there). There, that's your basis of negotiations for the Federation. Read my posts my ass.

RedImperator · Post by **RedImperator** » 2011-03-11 04:00pm

Metahive wrote:
You're essentially proposing that the person in the OP ignore information he has and obey rules that aren't there in order to put on an "interesting" show (i.e., Federation totally loses) for the benefit of...whom? The audience? I mean, there's three possible outcomes here
What "rules that aren't there"? The OP says your're the "head of the Federation council" and the head of the Fed council (I presume he meant the president) is limited in what he can do by himself. If you had read my posts as you asserted you'd have noticed that I have brought forward reasons why the council won't willy nilly allow the premature destruction of a stable wormhole into another galaxy full of amazing cultures and technology without being given any valid justification and "I just know it's the best course of action" won't do, that would be more liable to get you called off. They are so meek, they didn't blow the bajoran wormhole up right after meeting the Dominion either, remember?
Your advanced foreknowledge is no good unless you can convince your ignorant simulated compatriots that your actions are justified, at least try arguing how you'd go about that.

Holy Jeezus, don't blame me for the OP's poorly thought out scenario.

So wait...you're positing that in the simulation, the "president" knows exactly what the Empire's capabilities are, but the Federation Council doesn't, and the "president" has no convincing intelligence evidence to offer the council. Even though the OP doesn't actually say that and it doesn't make any sense. Fine, we'll play it your way--order Section 31 to do it and fuck the council. There, done.

Incidentally, smart guy, how are you going to convince the Federation council to immediately surrender if they don't have the same information you do? You've now closed two of the three possible options, leaving us with "Federation gets its ass kicked and surrenders". There's no way for the Federation to counter the Empire's overwhelming strategic speed advantage, even if for the sake of argument you nerfed the Empire's firepower and defenses so the Federation has a chance in a stand-up fight. Starfleet won't even have time to concentrate its forces to defend the core member worlds before the Empire stamps them flat. If the Federation is lucky, the Empire will conduct demonstration attacks on military targets first, rather than going straight for the "blow away the cities" tactic, but that's entirely up to the Empire. There's literally nothing you can do in this scenario to change the outcome, so...what the fuck is the point? Unlike attacking the wormhole, you can't even act unilaterally, because the Council can just overrule you.

Metahive · Post by **Metahive** » 2011-03-11 04:07pm

RedImperator wrote:So wait...you're positing that in the simulation, the "president" knows exactly what the Empire's capabilities are, but the Federation Council doesn't. Even though the OP doesn't actually say that and it doesn't make any sense.

It also doesn't say how long the wormhole has been open and how much interaction has taken place by the point you're dropped into the scenario. I was presuming it was a "the wormhole has just been discovered" scenario which would preclude anyone but the player to know anything about the other side if it was supposed to be a "100% realistic simulation" as the OP stipulated, no? Maybe we should just wait until the OP returns to clarify some things, there's no point in arguing further until the preliminaries are cleared up.