Defending the Federation(RAR)

[Carinthium]

It does depend on the person though- the typical forum troll from SD.net probably couldn't prevail in this scenario.

EDIT: Neither, it appears, could somebody like me or Batman.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Of course it does. But then again, if it's a simulation like the OP says, even the most unknowledgable poster can still access wookiepedia, or the main site, for information. It's not like it's hard to find this stuff.

[darthy]

It's been established time and time again in this forum that militarily the Federation is indefensible against the Empire- but how could it best be done in a somewhat different scenario?

Situation: You're in charge of the Federation Council in a 100% (this is a RAR) realistic simulation of an Empire v.s Federation war, with both galaxies fully simulated- this loosens your moral constraints. The wormhole is from a point in the "middle of nowhere" in Federation space to a similiar one in Imperial space- the programmer postulated a total victory at the battle of the second Death Star, but the foe is Palpatine's Empire.

You are being observed by an audience of Stardestroyer.net regulars that is statistically representative to the maximum extent possible (again, RAR)- you obviously can't win, but are playing to impress your audience with how you do rather than any real political or military objectives.

What do you do?

EDIT: Oops- was arguing on another threat, and got mixed up. Changed it now.

Dump the Treaty of Algeron. Put Phase Cloak on all federation ships. This will make the ships invulnerable to weaponfire from sw ships. The federation ships can then fly into the sw ships and destroy them all from the inside.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Another no-limits fallacy from darthy. Given that the Federation has precisely one (1) phase-cloak, and that's a prototype, available, how is it going to magically fit one to every one of the thousands or more starships of the Federation? In time for it to make any difference?

If you start as soon as the Empire turns up, you won't have the time, as you'll be fighting a desparate series of last-stands all the way to Earth.

If you start well in advance, you risk pissing off the Romulans and maybe even starting a major war with them.

Even assuming you manage to have all these phase-cloaks installed, can you demonstrate that the phase-cloaks can pass through SW shields, or hull armour? AFAIK, phase-cloaked ships can't fire weapons that will actually affect non-phased objects. That means you have to de-phase inside the ships. Can you show there is enough room to do so within Star Destroyers, that is near enough to critical equipment to be successful?

Will the starships have enough time to escape? If not, are you going to send all your starships on kamikaze missions against the Imperial fleet?

We know phased people are still affected by artifical gravity, as evidence by Geordi and Ro not falling through the floor in (I think) "The Next Phase." That suggests that the starships might not be able to pass though ordinary decks. If they can pass through them, they may be slowed/stopped by interdictor fields.

And this tactic of yours doesn't address that fact that SW ships are much, much faster at FTL than starships. And we know that SW ships can detect cloaked ships though Crystal Gravfield Traps. As phased ships obviously still have mass and gravity, CGT's should logically detect phased ships. So SW ships can simply run upon detecting phased ships.

My apologies if that's a lot in one go, I'm kinda wired right now.

[Darth Tedious]

Dump the Treaty of Algeron. Put Phase Cloak on all federation ships. This will make the ships invulnerable to weaponfire from sw ships. The federation ships can then fly into the sw ships and destroy them all from the inside.

By decloaking and killing themselves?

[Eternal_Freedom]

From Darthy's other posts, he seems to have a generic Trekkie level understanding. You've seen his bizarre Borg-assimilated DS2 thread Darth Tedious. No-limits fallacies abound.

I'm almost happy. I've wanted to debate with one of these guys since joining the board. Lock and load, this should be good!

[Stofsk]

Yeah, definitely the fanciest I'd get with the tech is reintroducing warp battle maneuvering - use the warp drive to dictate the range and orientation of the battle. (I don't think star destroyers have a lot of guns in the underside - stay beneath them. If they rotate to point their big guns at you, do a short warp speed burst, like a Picard Maneuver but with a different destination and purpose, to maintain optimal angles.)

Tactical information about the enemy almost certainly will help. A new kind of thinking might help. New technology probably won't.

That's how I'd go about it too. Peas in a pod, you and I.

Still though a Federation captain would extend the hand of friendship first, I think, and in a situation where the wormhole is closed off and you're an Imperial captain whose ship is stuck there, what options do you have? Kirk was willing to forgive the Kelvens after all.

[Darth Tedious]

From Darthy's other posts, he seems to have a generic Trekkie level understanding. You've seen his bizarre Borg-assimilated DS2 thread Darth Tedious. No-limits fallacies abound.

I'm almost happy. I've wanted to debate with one of these guys since joining the board. Lock and load, this should be good!

I hope the mods turn a blind eye. This could prove quite entertaining. People told me versus debates were dead!

As for closing the wormhole, I'd opt for a multipronged attack, and not all at once. The initial waves could serve mostly as a diversion, increasing everyone else's chances. And I'd certainly order everyone to use the Picard manuever extensively. This sort of approach should give decent chances of getting close enough to the wormhole to close it, even with Imperial defences in place.

[darthy]

Dump the Treaty of Algeron. Put Phase Cloak on all federation ships. This will make the ships invulnerable to weaponfire from sw ships. The federation ships can then fly into the sw ships and destroy them all from the inside.

By decloaking and killing themselves?

Phase cloaked mines set to decloak after they leave.

Another no-limits fallacy from darthy. Given that the Federation has precisely one (1) phase-cloak, and that's a prototype, available, how is it going to magically fit one to every one of the thousands or more starships of the Federation? In time for it to make any difference?

Look how fast the federation fleet modified their shields to adapt to the breen energy-damping weapon and how fast the crew was able to get the phase cloak working on the enterprise

Even assuming you manage to have all these phase-cloaks installed, can you demonstrate that the phase-cloaks can pass through SW shields, or hull armour? AFAIK, phase-cloaked ships can't fire weapons that will actually affect non-phased objects. That means you have to de-phase inside the ships. Can you show there is enough room to do so within Star Destroyers, that is near enough to critical equipment to be successful?

we saw the phase cloaked ship pass through an asteroid.

from tng "the next phase"

LAFORGE: It's supposed to change the structure of matter so it can pass through normal matter and energy. Hang on a second. A few years back, we got intelligence reports that the Klingons were working on trying to combine a phase inverter and a cloaking device. In theory, they believed that a phased ship could hide anywhere, even inside a planet, and that conventional weapons would be useless against it.

since the phase cloak can pass through energy then it can pass through shields and if weapons are useless against it then they don't have much to worry about there.

And this tactic of yours doesn't address that fact that SW ships are much, much faster at FTL than starships. And we know that SW ships can detect cloaked ships though Crystal Gravfield Traps. As phased ships obviously still have mass and gravity, CGT's should logically detect phased ships. So SW ships can simply run upon detecting phased ships.

maybe they can detect cloaked ships but maybe not phased cloaked ships since they would lose all substance. It's more than just making their ship invisible like conventional cloaks do. Even if they can detect the ships, so what? It's not like they could destroy them or anything.

Since sw ships are probably faster than st ships then this would mean that all the federation could do is destroy the ships sw sent. If the federation used something like slip stream technology or transwarp technology then they'd be evenly matched. We know the federation isn't too far off from having technology that allows them to travel great distances. Old Janeway from the future was able to travel to the delta quadrant in a few moments in episode "end game" afterall.

[Darth Tedious]

Phase cloaked mines set to decloak after they leave.

Yeah! Because they exist!

If the federation used something like slip stream technology or transwarp technology then they'd be evenly matched.

The Federation don't have transwarp. Quantum Slipstream was used only once, and declared unusable afterwards. Even then, it only achieved a speed of 300ly/h. That is not an even match for hyperdrive.

Do you have any ideas that don't involve making things up? Or do you honestly believe the Federation couldn't defend itself with what it actually has?

[darthy]

Yeah! Because they exist!

cloaked mines do, phased cloaked mines can.

The Federation don't have transwarp. Quantum Slipstream was used only once, and declared unusable afterwards. Even then, it only achieved a speed of 300ly/h. That is not an even match for hyperdrive.

Do you have any ideas that don't involve making things up? Or do you honestly believe the Federation couldn't defend itself with what it actually has?

Assuming i'm restricted to the 24th century then the federation needs to acquire technology from elsewhere to match the speed advantage. The planet of Aldea had the power to fling the enterprise across the galaxy if they wished. I'd go talk to them about propulsion technology. 29th century and above I'd say the empire's outmatched though as far as technology.

If the goal is to just defend the federation though then the phase cloak is good enough to defend it. That's the point.

[Darth Tedious]

cloaked mines do, phased cloaked mines can.

Can exist, but sadly for you, do not.

Assuming i'm restricted to the 24th century then the federation needs to acquire technology from elsewhere to match the speed advantage.

If the goal is to just defend the federation though then the phase cloak is good enough to defend it. That's the point.

So the answer is no, then. You could not defend the Federation with what they already actually have. A simple no would have sufficed.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Yeah! Because they exist!

cloaked mines do, phased cloaked mines can.

The Federation don't have transwarp. Quantum Slipstream was used only once, and declared unusable afterwards. Even then, it only achieved a speed of 300ly/h. That is not an even match for hyperdrive.

Do you have any ideas that don't involve making things up? Or do you honestly believe the Federation couldn't defend itself with what it actually has?

Assuming i'm restricted to the 24th century then the federation needs to acquire technology from elsewhere to match the speed advantage. The planet of Aldea had the power to fling the enterprise across the galaxy if they wished. I'd go talk to them about propulsion technology. 29th century and above I'd say the empire's outmatched though as far as technology.

If the goal is to just defend the federation though then the phase cloak is good enough to defend it. That's the point.

Can exist, assuming, this is all you ever say darthy. You take things we see in the series and connect the dots in absurd ways.

Yes, the Federation modified their shields quickly. But there is a BIG difference between modifying existing technology, that is already installed, and a completely new technology.

And yes, you are restricted to 24th century. Why? Because that's when most of the shows are set. All we have seen is a few episodes dealing vaguely with 26th, 29th and 31st century tech, and the only advantages they have over the Empire is time travel, and that's usefulness is questionnable at best.

Since sw ships are probably faster than st ships then this would mean that all the federation could do is destroy the ships sw sent. If the federation used something like slip stream technology or transwarp technology then they'd be evenly matched. We know the federation isn't too far off from having technology that allows them to travel great distances. Old Janeway from the future was able to travel to the delta quadrant in a few moments in episode "end game" afterall.

SW ships aren't probably faster than ST ships, they are definitely faster. This has been shown time and time again. The Federation has been working on Transwarp drives since ST3, earlier in fact as they were ready to test a prototype. And geuss what? 80 years after that, they STILL don't have it!

As Darth Tedious pointed out, Quantum Slipstream was used once and then declared unsafe. Clearly a technology you can use all the time!

Old Janeway from the future is a useless example as well. Not only was it a pice of Klingon tech, not Federation, it only worked one-way and Janeway changed the timeline drastically. That technology may not exist in the "main" timeline.

As for phase-cloaked ships passing through shields. We have a single off-hand and vague comment about phase-cloaked ships passing through energy That includes stuff like starlight you know. PAssing through energy is not a big deal, humans do it all the time. Passing through stuff designed to resist gigatons of energy weapons? Altogether different my friend.

[darthy]

Can exist, but sadly for you, do not.

but will exist. As the OP said, I would be in charge of the federation counsel and I say start building.

Do you have any ideas that don't involve making things up? Or do you honestly believe the Federation couldn't defend itself with what it actually has?

yes. I would contact other races like the planet of Aldea to see about getting faster propulsion.

voyager episode "unimatrix zero part 1"

QUEEN [on viewscreen]: I understand you've established contact with Starfleet. Perhaps you'll be getting home sooner than you expected.
JANEWAY: Perhaps.
QUEEN [on viewscreen]: We could help you.
CHAKOTAY: How so?.
QUEEN [on viewscreen]: Transwarp technology. You'd find that we can be quite accommodating, but we'd expect the same in return.

The borg were willing to make a deal with the federation before and give them transwarp technology, the federation can try to make a deal again.

As for phase-cloaked ships passing through shields. We have a single off-hand and vague comment about phase-cloaked ships passing through energy That includes stuff like starlight you know. PAssing through energy is not a big deal, humans do it all the time. Passing through stuff designed to resist gigatons of energy weapons? Altogether different my friend.

The krenim weapon was phased outside of space-time too though. It was impervious to conventional weapons.


Try to remember that the OP says that we are basically in charge of the federation and the goal is to prevent the empire from destroying you. It reminds me of the Kobayashi Maru program except i'm not convinced it's a no-win situation.

[Darth Tedious]

but will exist. As the OP said, I would be in charge of the federation counsel and I say start building.

Too bad time is of the essence in this scenario.

yes. I would contact other races like the planet of Aldea to see about getting faster propulsion.

Too bad the Aldeans had a repulsion beam, and not a faster engine system.

The borg were willing to make a deal with the federation before and give them transwarp technology, the federation can try to make a deal again.

Too bad it's only a 130 year round trip to go talk to them.

Try to remember that the OP says that we are basically in charge of the federation and the goal is to prevent the empire from destroying you. It reminds me of the Kobayashi Maru program except i'm not convinced it's a no-win situation.

It isn't a no-win situation. Obviously you haven't read this thread, because somebody already suggested a winning strategy. Using only the means the 24th Century Federation already has at their immediate disposal. And without resorting to bullshit. Try to guess who it was!

[darthy]

Too bad time is of the essence in this scenario.

Is it? I didn't see anything about a time constraint in the original post. Ah well, sling shot around the sun to buy more time then.

Too bad the Aldeans had a repulsion beam, and not a faster engine system.

Yeah an engine system isn't needed. We saw that with Krieger Waves in TNG episode "A Matter of Perspective". They could use repulsor beams to push their ship anywhere they wish.

Too bad it's only a 130 year round trip to go talk to them.

To get to the delta quadrant maybe and this is assuming they don't use the Aldreans help to get there. System J25 was located about 2 and a half years away from federation space.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Yeah an engine system isn't needed. We saw that with Krieger Waves in TNG episode "A Matter of Perspective". They could use repulsor beams to push their ship anywhere they wish.

ANOTHER BLOODY NO LIMITS FALLACY! My God man, are you really this retarded? Please tell me this level of debating is your idea of a joke. If not, then I pity everybody who has to talk to you for real.

Ah well, sling shot around the sun to buy more time then.

Are you seriously suggesting going back in time to give yourself an advantage?

Something that Starfleet regulations call a bad thing, if not outright forbidden? Not to mention the temporal paradoxes you might through up.

Or there's the other option that the time travel throws you into a different timeline, so the only difference in the main timline is we aren't burdened with your Trek-wanking stupidity.

[Darth Tedious]

Too bad time is of the essence in this scenario.

Is it? I didn't see anything about a time constraint in the original post.

That would be the enemy. I suppose the invading fleet will just wait while you do R&D. That's what people do in war, after all. The OP said 'a realistic simulation'. That means the attacking enemy will be attacking. Not waiting politely.

Ah well, sling shot around the sun to buy more time then.

The OP specified you are meant to be playing to entertain the SD.net regulars, not elicit facepalms from them. It appears you've already gotten at least one.

Too bad the Aldeans had a repulsion beam, and not a faster engine system.

Yeah an engine system isn't needed. We saw that with Krieger Waves in TNG episode "A Matter of Perspective". They could use repulsor beams to push their ship anywhere they wish.

Krieger Waves aren't repulsion beams. To use a repulsion beam, you need an objet to repel. Great, if you're right near a planet (or repelling ships from a planet). Useless if you're in open space.

Too bad it's only a 130 year round trip to go talk to them.

To get to the delta quadrant maybe and this is assuming they don't use the Aldreans help to get there. System J25 was located about 2 and a half years away from federation space.

The Queen is the only Borg who has ever negotiated. You would need to talk to her. Again you forget, this is a realistic simulation. Even then, why would she negotiate? Unless S8472 are back and the Borg need your help. Maybe you should ask the OP to change the situation?

Just for argument's sake, let's step away from realistic simulation and into the fantasy realm that you clearly inhabit. If the Borg give you transwarp technology (because they're just so into the habit of giving technology away), you will need to build transwarp hubs and set up conduits- in other words: install a completely new infrastructure. While being attacked. And your infrastructure is vulnerable to attack.And all your ships are docked in Starbases having their experimental phased cloaking devices installed, so they won't even be there to defend your transwarp hubs- wait... how are you going to build the hubs while your ships are being upgraded? Are the Borg going to do it for you? Must be one hell of a deal you struck with them.

Seriously, darthy. It's really not that hard to pull a win out this scenario. You only need to use what the Federation already has at their command. It's been done before.

[Eternal_Freedom]

If this goes on any further, I may have to rescind my original opinion about it being fun to have him around. I'm almost tempted to call in Vympel and have him oppress darthy.

It's a wall of ignorance argument. He throws up any one-shot insane ideas that's ever been seen in all of star trek, and then thorw up yet more and refuse to listen whenwe point out it's bollocks.

As you say Darth Tedious, It's even worse because the Federation can pull a win, or at least a stalemate in this situation. If it was another "Empire curbstomps Federation" thread it might be understandable.

But he ignores the reasonable ideas we present in favour of his Trekwanking. Useless hatfucker.

Note to a passing mod: Could darthy possibly get a "village idiot" title?

[Darth Tedious]

If this goes on any further, I may have to rescind my original opinion about it being fun to have him around. I'm almost tempted to call in Vympel and have him oppress darthy.

No! Are you forgetting the SD.net tagline?

Get your fill of sci-fi, science, and mockery of stupid people

She may yet be of some use to us.

As you say Darth Tedious, It's even worse because the Federation can pull a win, or at least a stalemate in this situation. If it was another "Empire curbstomps Federation" thread it might be understandable.

It's no stalemate, it's a win. This is 'Defending the Federation', after all. Successful defence = win. Though it did start out as an Empire curbstomping. All that had to be done was play on the Federation's actual strengths. The sort of shit they do every other week.

But he ignores the reasonable ideas we present in favour of his Trekwanking. Useless hatfucker.

Note to a passing mod: Could darthy possibly get a "village idiot" title?

Wouldn't "Useless hatfucker" be more appropriate? Or better yet- "Trektard Borgwanker"

[Eternal_Freedom]

Or perhaps a combination of the three?

"Useless hatfucking Borg-wanking village idiot"

And true, a succesful defence is a win. I was thinking "stalemate" as in "Cut off Imp ships decide to take as much of the Federation with them as they can with BDZ's" kind of stalemate. But I think that's unlikely

[Darth Tedious]

In a short answer, DXIII, hellyeah.
Warp can be used as quick as you can say engage. This is due, in no small part to the difference in speed. If you hit hyperspace without a safe vector set, you're pretty screwed, where at warp you have time to make course corrections.
Not all ships in SW take as long to make a jump as the Falcon (and there are reasons its computer was slower, but I'm about to go to bed and will explain them later if you like). But all ships in SW must plot a course first. There's no 'warp speed, any direction' when you're using hyperdrive.

SW ships can't use the Picard manuever partly for this reason, and partly because they'd overshoot their enemy by lightweeks.

[lord Martiya]

Well, if I was the president, my defense of the Federation would amount to this cry: "Q! If you wipe out the Empire I'll order Picard to dance naked in Place de la Concorde or go along whatever humiliation you can imagine!". And if it succeed, I'll do it.

[Eternal_Freedom]

In a short answer, DXIII, hellyeah.
Warp can be used as quick as you can say engage. This is due, in no small part to the difference in speed. If you hit hyperspace without a safe vector set, you're pretty screwed, where at warp you have time to make course corrections.
Not all ships in SW take as long to make a jump as the Falcon (and there are reasons its computer was slower, but I'm about to go to bed and will explain them later if you like). But all ships in SW must plot a course first. There's no 'warp speed, any direction' when you're using hyperdrive.

SW ships can't use the Picard manuever partly for this reason, and partly because they'd overshoot their enemy by lightweeks.

Actually, the EU makes numerous references to making "blind jumps," which are apparently the SW equivalent of "warp speed, any direction!" They usually last for fractions of a second, long enough to get you out of the star system so you can make safer calculations.

So, to answer DXIII, the actual jumping process looks to be about the same duration. SW take longer to calculate coordinates, but if you're waist-deep in shit and need to leave in a hurry, you can.

Also, a sensible commander would have emergency coordinates set up as a contingency anyway. Well, I say a sensible commander, it's what I would do.

[Batman]

The EU greatly exaggerates the danger of running into things during a blind jump, but it is markedly higher than with Warp drive, because while with Warp you apparently can pretty much arbitrarily pick any speed up to your maximum, hyperdrive seems to be an on/off proposition.
While the actual speed you go may vary depending on circumstances, I can't recall any instance of them intentionally manipulating it. You're either going hyperdrive or you're not. No 'let's keep it to 100c until we get our bearings'.

And while the emergency coordinates makes an awful amount of sense, it is apparently not done on any regular basis for whatever reason.
Heck, in ANH Han knew they were going to Alderaan, and one seriously hopes he knew they were starting at Tattooine, so there's no reason he couldn't have calculated that jump beforehand, yet he had to play turbolaser tag with those ISDs until the navputer had calculated a course.