Borg vs. ISD

[Metahive]

So going down a straight shaft = bend around corners now?

If you had actually bothered to watch the episode or fucking paid attention, Spock doesn't materialize anywhere near the shaft when he beams from the Enterprise down to the penal colony, so yes, you had a transporter beam bend around a corner or even two since there's no word that the Enterprise is directly above the elevator shaft during the transport.
Have you actually ever watched any Star Trek episode or are you just cluelessly and crudely parroting what Wong wrote on the main site?

How am I to argue with someone who confronts me with brainfarts like this? I'd presume arguing SW vs. ST would require at least some basic knowledge about both franchises.

Also what powers have I given anybody now that they never had before?

You first insinuated that the whole penal colony is located inside a tiny stone hut as evidenced by your flippant insistence that the transporter beam would have just to penetrate a few inches of concrete, although the episode and I in many prior posts pointed out that the facility is located underground and that the stone hut is just the entrance to the elevator!
Then you came with the bending transporter beams mentioned above. Guess what, no ST power has transporter beams that can do just that, they do have to take the direct path towards the target destination.

[Norade]

So going down a straight shaft = bend around corners now?

If you had actually bothered to watch the episode or fucking paid attention, Spock doesn't materialize anywhere near the shaft when he beams from the Enterprise down to the penal colony, so yes, you had a transporter beam bend around a corner or even two since there's no word that the Enterprise is directly above the elevator shaft during the transport.
Have you actually ever watched any Star Trek episode or are you just cluelessly and crudely parroting what Wong wrote on the main site?

How am I to argue with someone who confronts me with brainfarts like this? I'd presume arguing SW vs. ST would require at least some basic knowledge about both franchises.

So you're going to assume that the Enterprise wasn't in the best position possible before transporting, you're also going to ignore the fact that simply by having the shaft the Enterprise will be able to get better sensor data which in most cases is the main issue in transporting anywhere. Of course ignoring these facts fits your wall of ignorance style to a T so it's hardly surprising.

Also what powers have I given anybody now that they never had before?

You first insinuated that the whole penal colony is located inside a tiny stone hut as evidenced by your flippant insistence that the transporter beam would have just to penetrate a few inches of concrete, although the episode and I in many prior posts pointed out that the facility is located underground and that the stone hut is just the entrance to the elevator!
Then you came with the bending transporter beams mentioned above. Guess what, no ST power has transporter beams that can do just that, they do have to take the direct path towards the target destination.

Of course, scanning/transporting through a hut and down an elevator shaft is totally the same as scanning/transporting through solid rock. Not like you couldn't bounce a sensor ping down the shaft and gather return data about the inside of the cave or anything... The same may be true for the energy used by transporter beams as well, please show me the proof that they must always take a straight path when this episode itself may now be proof that they do not.

Also if you're trying to say that a beam must always be straight and can't go around corners look at bouncing radar off an object and picking up that signal with a different receiver on a different vector or even try shining a laser or flashlight off of a series of angled mirrors.

[Metahive]

So you're going to assume that the Enterprise wasn't in the best position possible before transporting, you're also going to ignore the fact that simply by having the shaft the Enterprise will be able to get better sensor data which in most cases is the main issue in transporting anywhere. Of course ignoring these facts fits your wall of ignorance style to a T so it's hardly surprising.

You know, someone who throws around stupid ad hocs with the best of 'em isn't going to complain about any wall of ignorance. Can you say "projection"? Sure you do.

I never thought I had to, but I actually drew you a map.



The red line is your suggestion of how the transporter beam reached its destination, the blue line is how it happens in, o, every ST episode ever. The dotted red line points to your "best possible position before transport", you see, you still have to have the transporter beam bend around a corner! There's no talk in the episode about "best position before transporting" and there's nothing given that the shaft faciliates scanning. You're just making. Shit. Up.

Also if you're trying to say that a beam must always be straight and can't go around corners look at bouncing radar off an object and picking up that signal with a different receiver on a different vector or even try shining a laser or flashlight off of a series of angled mirrors.

Norade, I have it up here with your obstinate stonewalling. So next you will provide canon evidence for corner bending transporter beams in Star Trek. Not transporter beams getting artificially relayed or reflected from one point to another, since there are no relays or any such fancy tricks mentioned in this episode, but beams honest-to-goodness bending around a corner as shown in the map above.
Please pay special attention to the bolded part in large latters.

Put up or shut up.

[Imperial528]

Sure, that might stop the Borg from transporting, it might however, depending on the seriousness of the leak, especially if it has to saturate large swaths of the ship to achieve this effect, also just kill off the rest of the crew. In that case you've just handed the Borg the prize without a challenge.
Let's therefore assume for this scenario that the reactors aren't leaking, or not leaking in such a serious manner.

A leak doesn't have to be internal to block a transporter beam. Emergency venting of reactor gases could easily cause it, as could destruction or major damage to any power transfer structures directly beneath or inside the armor layer. This is especially true if a purely external system, such as a heavy weapons turret or the small area of the reactor that bulges out of the hull at the bottom is damaged. Of course, one could also seal off the blast doors at an internal and fortify near them, so that a lock cannot be established close to a fortified position located next to a radiation leak. At worst, external leaks would knock out the sections near the damaged system, but it's not like everyone on board the ISD would be dead.

[Metahive]

Sounds plausible. But have you any numbers on how much radiation borg transporters can tolerate before getting scrambled? I don't so this will just lead to a lot of rather idle speculation on just how much irradiation is necessary to completely or mostly insulate the ISD from any transporter attempts. I also think giving the ISD severe damage like that might prove to be a bigger problem for the crew than the Borg looming down upon them and I intend them to be the biggest threat in at least this initial scenario. Let's save major hardware malfunctions for until after they have fought off the Borg, OK?

[Norade]

So you're going to assume that the Enterprise wasn't in the best position possible before transporting, you're also going to ignore the fact that simply by having the shaft the Enterprise will be able to get better sensor data which in most cases is the main issue in transporting anywhere. Of course ignoring these facts fits your wall of ignorance style to a T so it's hardly surprising.

You know, someone who throws around stupid ad hocs with the best of 'em isn't going to complain about any wall of ignorance. Can you say "projection"? Sure you do.

I never thought I had to, but I actually drew you a map.



The red line is your suggestion of how the transporter beam reached its destination, the blue line is how it happens in, o, every ST episode ever. The dotted red line points to your "best possible position before transport", you see, you still have to have the transporter beam bend around a corner! There's no talk in the episode about "best position before transporting" and there's nothing given that the shaft faciliates scanning. You're just making. Shit. Up.

Why would moving into position for an easier time transporting even be mentioned, things like that should be so automatic as to not be worthy of comment. As for your shitty drawing, that just demonstrates how stupid you really are. Something like radio waves like what is used in modern radar would bounce down the tunnel and we would get an image of what is going on within the cave. There is no reason to assume that Trek sensors don't have some component that works like that as every form of sensor currently known, including to an extent plain light, works that way.

Once your sensors have an idea of what's down there we know that transporting becomes much easier. No need for the transporter to need to use the same trick anymore, but also no reason you can't bounce the beam down the shaft in much the same way.

Also if you're trying to say that a beam must always be straight and can't go around corners look at bouncing radar off an object and picking up that signal with a different receiver on a different vector or even try shining a laser or flashlight off of a series of angled mirrors.

Norade, I have it up here with your obstinate stonewalling. So next you will provide canon evidence for corner bending transporter beams in Star Trek. Not transporter beams getting artificially relayed or reflected from one point to another, since there are no relays or any such fancy tricks mentioned in this episode, but beams honest-to-goodness bending around a corner as shown in the map above.
Please pay special attention to the bolded part in large latters.

Put up or shut up.

The episode you're using as evidence, we know transporters have difficulty beaming through stone and there is no reason not to assume that transporters work the way I've postulated. If you can find some evidence against this then I'd be happy to reconsider.

Sounds plausible. But have you any numbers on how much radiation borg transporters can tolerate before getting scrambled? I don't so this will just lead to a lot of rather idle speculation on just how much irradiation is necessary to completely or mostly insulate the ISD from any transporter attempts. I also think giving the ISD severe damage like that might prove to be a bigger problem for the crew than the Borg looming down upon them and I intend them to be the biggest threat in at least this initial scenario. Let's save major hardware malfunctions for until after they have fought off the Borg, OK?

The minor amount of radiation from a modern aircraft carrier was enough to block the beam in ST:IV and that was far and away below dangerous levels.

[Metahive]

Why would moving into position for an easier time transporting even be mentioned, things like that should be so automatic as to not be worthy of comment. As for your shitty drawing, that just demonstrates how stupid you really are. Something like radio waves like what is used in modern radar would bounce down the tunnel and we would get an image of what is going on within the cave. There is no reason to assume that Trek sensors don't have some component that works like that as every form of sensor currently known, including to an extent plain light, works that way.

Once your sensors have an idea of what's down there we know that transporting becomes much easier. No need for the transporter to need to use the same trick anymore, but also no reason you can't bounce the beam down the shaft in much the same way.

Not featured: even the slightest bit of evidence for any of the assumptions you just made. Also not featured: the evidence I requested you provide. Also, you're willy-nilly changing from sensor beams to transporter beams.

Do you think nobody will notice your dishonesty here?

The episode you're using as evidence, we know transporters have difficulty beaming through stone and there is no reason not to assume that transporters work the way I've postulated. If you can find some evidence against this then I'd be happy to reconsider.

No, we don't "know" any such thing, we in fact have many evidence to the contrary, like the Janus VI colony that's all underground yet can be reached via transporters just fine in Devil in the Dark. Rocks and stones by themselves provide no obstacle for transporters.
You're merely lazily assuming bullshit.

The minor amount of radiation from a modern aircraft carrier was enough to block the beam in ST:IV and that was far and away below dangerous levels.

Ahem, they beamed into and out of the ship in the fucking movie you fucking dunderhead! The radiation only made transporting more difficult, but not impossible.
Cripes, why won't you put at least a modicum of effort into your posts, you goddam clod!

I repeat my request for canon evidence regarding bending transporter beams.

[Imperial528]

Sounds plausible. But have you any numbers on how much radiation borg transporters can tolerate before getting scrambled? I don't so this will just lead to a lot of rather idle speculation on just how much irradiation is necessary to completely or mostly insulate the ISD from any transporter attempts. I also think giving the ISD severe damage like that might prove to be a bigger problem for the crew than the Borg looming down upon them and I intend them to be the biggest threat in at least this initial scenario. Let's save major hardware malfunctions for until after they have fought off the Borg, OK?

So, let me get this straight:

It is not reasonable to assume that vented emission radiation coming from a reactor that is known to be many orders of magnitude more powerful than any Borg cube's reactor, and by extension transporter power, will block a Borg transporter beam simply because there are no specific numbers on how much radiation said transporters can tolerate?

And that damaging the ISD to the extent where no weapons at all work, all fighters or at least their launching systems are inoperable, no jamming equipment works, no long-range communication equipment works, no shielding at all is functional, and main engines are completely inoperable, will not cause sufficient amounts of damage to create external radiation leaks and electromagnetic phenomena where severed power transmission lines are being grounded by the hull? Delaying hardware malfunctions because they can be a threat runs completely against the point of any VS argument, since it throws out so many variables that you might as well throw out everything else, too. Also, news for you: An irradiated deck is a hazard for the Borg, too, maybe even more so, since they do not know anything about the system the radiation is leaking from, and they are likely not going to know how to protect themselves from it. Hell, if I was the captain of this ISD, and I saw Borg transporting in everywhere there wasn't a radiation leak, I'd order everyone into the hangar, and order armed hazmat teams to cause radiation leaks in a perimeter around the hangar, since then the Borg would be forced to send shuttles through the hangar shielding, unless that's gone too.

[Metahive]

It is not reasonable to assume that vented emission radiation coming from a reactor that is known to be many orders of magnitude more powerful than any Borg cube's reactor, and by extension transporter power, will block a Borg transporter beam simply because there are no specific numbers on how much radiation said transporters can tolerate?

It's not reasonable to assume anything without grounding on concrete facts, but that's only an aside here. First, calm down, I never said that there's no chance the radiation is going to block the transporter. Second, I asked how much radiation would be necessary to do so and that we have no easy way of finding out. If it's just that powerful radiation that tiny leaks are already sufficient to insulate the ship it's going to be nasty for the people inside regardless of it being an external or internal leak.

And that damaging the ISD to the extent where no weapons at all work, all fighters or at least their launching systems are inoperable, no jamming equipment works, no long-range communication equipment works, no shielding at all is functional, and main engines are completely inoperable, will not cause sufficient amounts of damage to create external radiation leaks and electromagnetic phenomena where severed power transmission lines are being grounded by the hull?

I disabled fighters only for any scenario that dumbass Norade was proposing because he kept stalling providing evidence for ISD armor density by fantasizing about the almighty Skipray Blastboats happily conquering the Delta Quadrant. My initial scenario has weapons, shields and propulsion off-line, but repairable by on ship means and two thirds of the crew dead. I never said anything about how extensive the damage is beyond that. That's all you adding things to the scenario by yourself and that's fine by me.

Delaying hardware malfunctions because they can be a threat runs completely against the point of any VS argument, since it throws out so many variables that you might as well throw out everything else, too.

Damage to components doesn't have to be immediately obvious. The Enterprise-D was destroyed by problems that showed up a while after the engagement ended after all.

An irradiated deck is a hazard for the Borg, too, maybe even more so, since they do not know anything about the system the radiation is leaking from, and they are likely not going to know how to protect themselves from it.

Did I anywhere say otherwise? We know however that the Borg use their personal shields to provide at least some sort of environmental protection since they can walk around in space without any special gear. And o yeah, it's not like they can't detect sources of radiation themselves too.

Hell, if I was the captain of this ISD, and I saw Borg transporting in everywhere there wasn't a radiation leak, I'd order everyone into the hangar, and order armed hazmat teams to cause radiation leaks in a perimeter around the hangar, since then the Borg would be forced to send shuttles through the hangar shielding, unless that's gone too.

See, we are already moving forward in fleshing out possible routes for the scenario. Why are people here so reluctant to do just that? Accumulating further damage in the hangar when quite a few compatriots have argued for the ISD's fighters to be the gamechanger here might not be so wise. Trying to do just enough damage with crude weapons is quite a crapshoot.

I must say it again, I regard this as more of a writing exercise.

[Stark]

You really shouldn't let this idiot get away with so much. Why are you even talking about dirt? An electrical transformer on Planet Mad Max was enough to prevent transport out of the tunnels, and is expressly discussed as countering the instant 'lol stole ur hostage' solution.

This enormous sideline about Metahive being an idiot should really be its own thread.

[Norade]

Why would moving into position for an easier time transporting even be mentioned, things like that should be so automatic as to not be worthy of comment. As for your shitty drawing, that just demonstrates how stupid you really are. Something like radio waves like what is used in modern radar would bounce down the tunnel and we would get an image of what is going on within the cave. There is no reason to assume that Trek sensors don't have some component that works like that as every form of sensor currently known, including to an extent plain light, works that way.

Once your sensors have an idea of what's down there we know that transporting becomes much easier. No need for the transporter to need to use the same trick anymore, but also no reason you can't bounce the beam down the shaft in much the same way.

Not featured: even the slightest bit of evidence for any of the assumptions you just made. Also not featured: the evidence I requested you provide. Also, you're willy-nilly changing from sensor beams to transporter beams.

Do you think nobody will notice your dishonesty here?

You'll notice that a few posts up I made a note that transporting issues in most cases really seem to be sensor issues and thus if one works so too should the other. We know that radar, regular light, sound, and other forms of gaining data about a place all bounce. Please show evidence for why Trek sensors would not behave the same way.

The episode you're using as evidence, we know transporters have difficulty beaming through stone and there is no reason not to assume that transporters work the way I've postulated. If you can find some evidence against this then I'd be happy to reconsider.

No, we don't "know" any such thing, we in fact have many evidence to the contrary, like the Janus VI colony that's all underground yet can be reached via transporters just fine in Devil in the Dark. Rocks and stones by themselves provide no obstacle for transporters.
You're merely lazily assuming bullshit.

Why wouldn't a colony set themselves up so that transporters would work? This colony would easily be able to set relays as often as needed to ensure that transporting would work seeing as every major and most minor powers seem to use them any colony built underground would use this by default. In episodes where there is no colony they have issue transporting through intervening rock.

The minor amount of radiation from a modern aircraft carrier was enough to block the beam in ST:IV and that was far and away below dangerous levels.

Ahem, they beamed into and out of the ship in the fucking movie you fucking dunderhead! The radiation only made transporting more difficult, but not impossible.
Cripes, why won't you put at least a modicum of effort into your posts, you goddam clod!

I repeat my request for canon evidence regarding bending transporter beams.

So I misremembered a shitty movie sue me, that tiny level of radiation made transporting very tough to the point where Chekov was nearly caught. It seems safe to assume that any higher level and it would have become more difficult until it became impossible. Even worse is the fact that nuclear powered craft, according to this report, actually expose the crew to less radiation that you would receive flying in a plane. Are we to assume that this radiation was special, which would be a joke, or that transporters are so finicky that even a very small level of radiation can prevent them from working effectively?

You really shouldn't let this idiot get away with so much. Why are you even talking about dirt? An electrical transformer on Planet Mad Max was enough to prevent transport out of the tunnels, and is expressly discussed as countering the instant 'lol stole ur hostage' solution.

This enormous sideline about Metahive being an idiot should really be its own thread.

True enough, but he can't even win when talking about simple dirt and he refuses to do any of his own work so why not take this to the end and then beat him everywhere else after.

[Metahive]

Stark, I have the distinct impression you're nurturing a grudge against me ever since the Caucasian Genghis Khan thread, since you keep following me around just to insult me. You never contribute anything besides lame snark and you refuse to follow up on any post you make in response to one of mine. What's it now with telling people how I should be ignored, HOSed or whatever? Shouldn't they know best themselves?

If you have any sort of special personal problems with me, please let me know via PM, because this sort of highschool style mobbing attempts are nothing but childish and severely misplaced in any thread with an actual topic.

[Norade]

Stark, I have the distinct impression you're nurturing a grudge against me ever since the Caucasian Genghis Khan thread, since you keep following me around just to insult me. You never contribute anything besides lame snark and you refuse to follow up on any post you make in response to one of mine. What's it now with telling people how I should be ignored, HOSed or whatever? Shouldn't they know best themselves?

If you have any sort of special personal problems with me, please let me know via PM, because this sort of highschool style mobbing attempts are nothing but childish and severely misplaced in any thread with an actual topic.

He's not the only one to take issue with you Meta, Batman has, Darth Fanboy has, I have and this was from this thread and one other read. I'm sure more people want your ass HOS'ed and titled by now as well.

EDIT: Sanchez and Purple seem to dislike you as well.

EDIT 2: Also you have a post to respond to, so instead of bitching at Stark try thinking up at least one decent arguement.

[Metahive]

He's not the only one to take issue with you Meta, Batman has, Darth Fanboy has, I have and this was from this thread and one other read. I'm sure more people want your ass HOS'ed and titled by now as well.

It's ironic that only a few posts ago you accused me of hijacking the thread. Of course, since you're eager to avoid having to back up your claim re: bouncing-bending transporter beams, you fly upon this opportunity like a ravenous vulture. Utterly, utterly predictable.

Also, Batman just chided me for not paying attention once, I have no more quarrel with him. I don't see Sanchez and Purple displaying any sort of special hatred of me. Fanboy's accusations don't grow beyond calling me stupid and humorless and you are just a dumbshit asshole who's caught between a rock and a hardplace in a debate he doesn't have the mental capabilities for and now tries to railroad into a different direction whatever the cost.

If the Mods and Admins find my conduct lacking, I shall accept their punishment. You and your buddy Stark however can right go and fuck off. You're not in any way model posters yourself.

And that's as much as I will say on this topic within this thread. Let's go back to those transporter beams that you claim can routinely bend and bounce around corners, I'm still waiting for you to provide evidence for that.

[Metahive]

Norade, you sound like a broken record by now.

You'll notice that a few posts up I made a note that transporting issues in most cases really seem to be sensor issues and thus if one works so too should the other. We know that radar, regular light, sound, and other forms of gaining data about a place all bounce. Please show evidence for why Trek sensors would not behave the same way.

Norade, since this sensor ray Red Herring is based around yet another unsupported assumption, that the sensor rays were somehow directed down the shaft, what do you think you're doing here but wasting time and being a fuckwad?

Why wouldn't a colony set themselves up so that transporters would work? This colony would easily be able to set relays as often as needed to ensure that transporting would work seeing as every major and most minor powers seem to use them any colony built underground would use this by default. In episodes where there is no colony they have issue transporting through intervening rock.

Fucking stop with these unbacked assumptions! Here, look up why you're not going to make any headway with this:

http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/s ... _adhoc.htm

So I misremembered a shitty movie sue me, that tiny level of radiation made transporting very tough to the point where Chekov was nearly caught.

Watch the goddamn movie, Chekov getting caught was a major plot point! They can beam only Uhura out because of a power drain in the ship they're using, not because of interfering radiation!

It seems safe to assume that any higher level and it would have become more difficult until it became impossible. Even worse is the fact that nuclear powered craft, according to this report, actually expose the crew to less radiation that you would receive flying in a plane. Are we to assume that this radiation was special, which would be a joke, or that transporters are so finicky that even a very small level of radiation can prevent them from working effectively?

If you had actually watched the movie, you'd have rememebered that they were specifically there to steal some radioactive materials (well, "photons"), meaning they had to get very close to the source of it, so talking about radiation outside the reactor is just another red herring, you freaking idiot!

True enough, but he can't even win when talking about simple dirt and he refuses to do any of his own work so why not take this to the end and then beat him everywhere else after.

I did my own work, I provided calculations and raw numbers a while back, you lying sack of horsepoo. And do I have to remind you again that it was you who came up with this whole "Beaming through ISD armor equals beaming through x meters of rock" shit? Don't chide me for taking you up on something you yourself brought into the thread for fuck's sake!

BTW, still waiting for evidence regarding bouncy-bendy transporter beams and now also scanrays. Are you going to weasel some more or concede already?

[Norade]

Norade, you sound like a broken record by now.

You'll notice that a few posts up I made a note that transporting issues in most cases really seem to be sensor issues and thus if one works so too should the other. We know that radar, regular light, sound, and other forms of gaining data about a place all bounce. Please show evidence for why Trek sensors would not behave the same way.

Norade, since this sensor ray Red Herring is based around yet another unsupported assumption, that the sensor rays were somehow directed down the shaft, what do you think you're doing here but wasting time and being a fuckwad?

There's a shaft, sensors can go down it, what would prevent them from taking the obvious course of action besides your saying they wouldn't?

Why wouldn't a colony set themselves up so that transporters would work? This colony would easily be able to set relays as often as needed to ensure that transporting would work seeing as every major and most minor powers seem to use them any colony built underground would use this by default. In episodes where there is no colony they have issue transporting through intervening rock.

Fucking stop with these unbacked assumptions! Here, look up why you're not going to make any headway with this:

http://atheism.about.com/library/FAQs/s ... _adhoc.htm

Care to show me why a colony wouldn't do as i have suggested? Care to cast any shadow of a doubt at all over my logic?

So I misremembered a shitty movie sue me, that tiny level of radiation made transporting very tough to the point where Chekov was nearly caught.

Watch the goddamn movie, Chekov getting caught was a major plot point! They can beam only Uhura out because of a power drain in the ship they're using, not because of interfering radiation!

I don't own the movie and finding the scene in question online is proving difficult, so excuse my not being able to go over the entire thing in detail. 'll have the movie shortly though and then I'll be able to review the scene in question.

It seems safe to assume that any higher level and it would have become more difficult until it became impossible. Even worse is the fact that nuclear powered craft, according to this report, actually expose the crew to less radiation that you would receive flying in a plane. Are we to assume that this radiation was special, which would be a joke, or that transporters are so finicky that even a very small level of radiation can prevent them from working effectively?

If you had actually watched the movie, you'd have rememebered that they were specifically there to steal some radioactive materials (well, "photons"), meaning they had to get very close to the source of it, so talking about radiation outside the reactor is just another red herring, you freaking idiot!

Even getting close to the reactor the levels should be rather low. It's not as if you want to kill the crew should they ever need to get near the damned thing. A damaged ISD would almost certainly produce more radiation, ions, graviquarkitons, or what ever treknobable particle of the week will stop the transporters working.

True enough, but he can't even win when talking about simple dirt and he refuses to do any of his own work so why not take this to the end and then beat him everywhere else after.

I did my own work, I provided calculations and raw numbers a while back, you lying sack of horsepoo. And do I have to remind you again that it was you who came up with this whole "Beaming through ISD armor equals beaming through x meters of rock" shit? Don't chide me for taking you up on something you yourself brought into the thread for fuck's sake!

BTW, still waiting for evidence regarding bouncy-bendy transporter beams and now also scanrays. Are you going to weasel some more or concede already?

Take a flashlight, find a mirror shine the flashlight into it, proof. Yell into a gorge, hear the echo, proof. Look at how radar works, proof. Look at how sonar works, proof. I've shown ample evidence that modern sensors all based around this and in all likely hood sensors in the future will work in much the same way, by sending out a signal, bouncing it off something, and getting it back. How do you think sensors work?

Also here's an easy question, what is the highest observed thickness of rock we've seen anything beam through without significant issue. Try picking a target where there is no colony or other manned facility that would likely have devices in place to make beaming in easier.

[Norade]

He's not the only one to take issue with you Meta, Batman has, Darth Fanboy has, I have and this was from this thread and one other read. I'm sure more people want your ass HOS'ed and titled by now as well.

It's ironic that only a few posts ago you accused me of hijacking the thread. Of course, since you're eager to avoid having to back up your claim re: bouncing-bending transporter beams, you fly upon this opportunity like a ravenous vulture. Utterly, utterly predictable.

Also, Batman just chided me for not paying attention once, I have no more quarrel with him. I don't see Sanchez and Purple displaying any sort of special hatred of me. Fanboy's accusations don't grow beyond calling me stupid and humorless and you are just a dumbshit asshole who's caught between a rock and a hardplace in a debate he doesn't have the mental capabilities for and now tries to railroad into a different direction whatever the cost.

If the Mods and Admins find my conduct lacking, I shall accept their punishment. You and your buddy Stark however can right go and fuck off. You're not in any way model posters yourself.

And that's as much as I will say on this topic within this thread. Let's go back to those transporter beams that you claim can routinely bend and bounce around corners, I'm still waiting for you to provide evidence for that.

I can't wait to see you titled and show trialled troll.

[Metahive]

Care to show me why a colony wouldn't do as i have suggested? Care to cast any shadow of a doubt at all over my logic?

Now you ask me to prove a negative, that's just glorious. Also, I already showed you why your logic fails, no, let me be more precise:

You're starting with the assumption that ST transporters and scanrays can't penetrate rock and then you try to shoehorn any examples into fitting that. That's called Begging the Question. You're putting the cart before the horse. Instead of drawing conclusions from the available evidence, you just start with the conclusion and selectively pick up or discard the evidence.

Substandard.

There's a shaft, sensors can go down it, what would prevent them from taking the obvious course of action besides your saying they wouldn't?

Prove that directing scans and beams specifically down the shaft played any role in this episode. The only obstacle that is explictely mentioned in the episode is a shield surrounding the facility, not the rocks above it.

And then once again prove that transporter beams can bend and bounce around corners.

I don't own the movie and finding the scene in question online is proving difficult, so excuse my not being able to go over the entire thing in detail. 'll have the movie shortly though and then I'll be able to review the scene in question.

Spending one minute on Memory Alpha to look it up would have sufficed. Just one minute. Don't chastise me for your laziness.

Even getting close to the reactor the levels should be rather low. It's not as if you want to kill the crew should they ever need to get near the damned thing. A damaged ISD would almost certainly produce more radiation, ions, graviquarkitons, or what ever treknobable particle of the week will stop the transporters working.

Isn't it telling you completely ignore that I disproved your "low level radiation blocks transporters" bullshit and instead concentrate on this irrelevant tangent?

Take a flashlight, find a mirror shine the flashlight into it, proof. Yell into a gorge, hear the echo, proof. Look at how radar works, proof. Look at how sonar works, proof. I've shown ample evidence that modern sensors all based around this and in all likely hood sensors in the future will work in much the same way, by sending out a signal, bouncing it off something, and getting it back. How do you think sensors work?

You're the one who keeps saying they wouldn't penetrate rock without a shred of evidence while I provided evidence that they in fact do. Subterreanean Mining Colony on Janus VI! Hell, they do even manage to scan through the Solid Neutronium of the Doomsday Machine. How much more canon evidence do you want that ST sensors and transporters do indeed penetrate solid matter? So stop with these Red Herrings.

Also here's an easy question, what is the highest observed thickness of rock we've seen anything beam through without significant issue. Try picking a target where there is no colony or other manned facility that would likely have devices in place to make beaming in easier.

As soon as you provide even a shred of evidence that such devices are in effect in such locations, you fool. Don't evidence count for anything here anymore?

I can't wait to see you titled and show trialled troll.

For what? Am I the guy here making repeatedly claims and refusing to back them up while trying to browbeat another poster with blatant backseat modding and thread hijacking? Why don't you go and report me to Vympel if you're so eager to get me sanctioned?

[Big Phil]

Are we seriously pissing about whether the Borg could successfully transport into and out of an already gutted ISD? Does it matter, in that case? Take away all of the ship's guns, most of its crew, its fighter component, and all offensive and defensive capabilities and, eventually, someone will take the ship. I don't see how Metahive can prove the claim, one way or the other. Either they can beam through the hull, and will take horrendous losses to the remaining crew (since we've only seen a single, aberrant, example of beaming defenders off the ship, led by 7 of 9, I reject this tactic altogether), or they can't and will take horrendous losses from Borg shuttling aboard the ship. Eventually, however, they will wear down the ISD's crew and take the ship. It might take anywhere between 500 and 500 million Borg to succeed, but they will succeed.

[Metahive]

(since we've only seen a single, aberrant, example of beaming defenders off the ship, led by 7 of 9, I reject this tactic altogether),

It wasn't aberrant since Seven wasn't the one proposing or leading it, she was sent to overlook how the Queen was inducting new subjects into the collective. There's the possibility they were scooping or cutting ships up to get at the crew, but at the end of the battle there are still alien ships standing that have only lost their crew but are otherwise in fine condition.

Are we seriously pissing about whether the Borg could successfully transport into and out of an already gutted ISD?

Actually, right now I and Norade are arguing if ST transporters can even penetrate solid rock and if SW armor alone could thwart them. I found this to be worthwhile because this argument isn't anywhere on the Main Site.

Eventually, however, they will wear down the ISD's crew and take the ship. It might take anywhere between 500 and 500 million Borg to succeed, but they will succeed.

I said repeatedly that the ship is in repairable condition and that they only need to hold off the Borg until weapons, shields and propulsion are back online. I'm only questioning how well they'd do at repelling the boarding crews of the Borg, with or without transporters.

[Imperial528]

It's not reasonable to assume anything without grounding on concrete facts, but that's only an aside here. First, calm down, I never said that there's no chance the radiation is going to block the transporter. Second, I asked how much radiation would be necessary to do so and that we have no easy way of finding out. If it's just that powerful radiation that tiny leaks are already sufficient to insulate the ship it's going to be nasty for the people inside regardless of it being an external or internal leak.

True enough, I suppose. Since we don't have any concrete information on the strength of the radiation, it would be impossible to know how much would bleed through.

I disabled fighters only for any scenario that dumbass Norade was proposing because he kept stalling providing evidence for ISD armor density by fantasizing about the almighty Skipray Blastboats happily conquering the Delta Quadrant. My initial scenario has weapons, shields and propulsion off-line, but repairable by on ship means and two thirds of the crew dead. I never said anything about how extensive the damage is beyond that. That's all you adding things to the scenario by yourself and that's fine by me.

Oh, I apologize then, I haven't read the entire thread in full detail yet, so I assumed that simply all major non-life support systems were offline. If communications and jamming is up, then that can make it more interesting because they can attempt to jam Borg sensors, and also call for reinforcements, which puts a time limit on the Borg.

Damage to components doesn't have to be immediately obvious. The Enterprise-D was destroyed by problems that showed up a while after the engagement ended after all.

Well, that makes sense. It's just that an ISD is a completely different animal, so to speak. On most Imperial (or indeed, Wars in general) ships, to completely disable a system you either need to physically destroy it or disconnect it from the rest of the ship, and not in any neat fashion, either. Unlike ST ships, which can have a good amount of their weapons taken offline rather easily without any immediate adverse effects to the survivability of the whole ship, although any hits to their power grid (specifically plasma conduits) seems to really screw them over big time.

Did I anywhere say otherwise? We know however that the Borg use their personal shields to provide at least some sort of environmental protection since they can walk around in space without any special gear. And o yeah, it's not like they can't detect sources of radiation themselves too.

I had gotten the feeling that you had implied otherwise, which is my mistake. Anyway, I am sure the Borg will have procedures for dealing with the radiation, but they will have a harder time because they don't know much about the leak other than it exists, it is deadly, and maybe the source. It'd be like telling the operator of a research reactor to figure out how to safely contain a leak on a carrier or a nuclear submarine, I'm sure he'd do it, but not without taking time to first figure out all the little kinks of the system first. Granted, the Borg do not have the luxury of being able to easily access ISD documentation.

See, we are already moving forward in fleshing out possible routes for the scenario. Why are people here so reluctant to do just that? Accumulating further damage in the hangar when quite a few compatriots have argued for the ISD's fighters to be the gamechanger here might not be so wise. Trying to do just enough damage with crude weapons is quite a crapshoot.

I must say it again, I regard this as more of a writing exercise.

I see.

[Big Phil]

(since we've only seen a single, aberrant, example of beaming defenders off the ship, led by 7 of 9, I reject this tactic altogether),

It wasn't aberrant since Seven wasn't the one proposing or leading it, she was sent to overlook how the Queen was inducting new subjects into the collective. There's the possibility they were scooping or cutting ships up to get at the crew, but at the end of the battle there are still alien ships standing that have only lost their crew but are otherwise in fine condition.

And yet we've never seen this tactic at any other time. Not during BOBW, not during First Contact (it would have been a damned useful tactic both times), after the Borg had supposedly had time to "adapt" to Federation weapons and shields. Why should we assume that a) the Borg would be smart enough to use a tactic of the week, and b) that it would even work against a substantially more powerful and previously unknown (and therefore one to which the Borg have not yet "adapted") opponent?

Are we seriously pissing about whether the Borg could successfully transport into and out of an already gutted ISD?

Actually, right now I and Norade are arguing if ST transporters can even penetrate solid rock and if SW armor alone could thwart them. I found this to be worthwhile because this argument isn't anywhere on the Main Site.

And how would you "prove" this? We see numerous and contradictory examples of Treknology all the time. One day the transporters work through miles of solid earth, the next day a mild windstorm prevents them from working. What are we left with, if anything?

Eventually, however, they will wear down the ISD's crew and take the ship. It might take anywhere between 500 and 500 million Borg to succeed, but they will succeed.

I said repeatedly that the ship is in repairable condition and that they only need to hold off the Borg until weapons, shields and propulsion are back online. I'm only questioning how well they'd do at repelling the boarding crews of the Borg, with or without transporters.

Really? This wasn't answered four pages ago? Assuming the Borg "transport the crew out" tactic actually works, the Borg would win. They have a magic uber-tech for which the Imperials have no counter.

If transporting into or out of the ISD doesn't work, the Borg get slaughtered if they try to board. They have the tactical creativity of shower scum, after all, and will just wade into combat and get mowed down. If the Imperials can hold them off long enough, they'll repair the ship and either escape or destroy the Borg ships. Otherwise, the Borg eventually win through sheer numbers and tenacity.

[Connor MacLeod]

Well, this thread has become a trainwreck. When did we get to the idea that Transporter beams are self propelled exactly?

On top of that Norade touched on a point that I think is being ignored: sensors matter. Transporters by nature will almost HAVE to rely on some means of accurate targeting at the destination point, whether it is some sort of beacon of some kind or extensive use of sensors - people who transport always arrive at approximately the right elevation (eg they're not rematerializing 5-10 feet in the air, or embedded in something, or whatever.) and orientation (not being upside down or anything.) Which means of course that if your sensors are interefered with in some way, or blocked, transporting becomes considerably riskier. Will jamming NULLIFY the ability to transport? No, it won't, but it becomes basically a guessing game of where troops will be transported, if they will get there safely, or what. THey won't know the interior of an ISD, and that is going to limit the tactical effectiveness of transporters.

As far as beaming through shields go, that depends entirely on how the transporter beam functions. If it operates on the "trans dimensional" principle as some do (EG 40K warp based teleporters) then it might not be blocked by SW shields (SW shields don't extend into the warp). If we're talking about some sort of beam in realspace (whatever this matter stream is) it will depend on the properties of said stream and its own penetration ability (how it will mesh up when it comes to forcefields and stuff, I dunno.) I vaguely recall that tractor beams can deflect transporter beams, which may help. (and even if it doesnt we know SW has tractor beams and related technologies, unless the tractor beams are included in the silly list of things that have been "crippled")

Also mass and density are NOT the same thing. We dont know the relationships between mass (and amounts of mass) and density, so trying to equate the two is silly. Furthermore, I am puzzled why it is continually assumed that transportation is an either/or event (EG you arrive safely or not at all) when it comes to thinks like beaming through objects. A Transporter could still (in theory) transport through an object or forceffield, but imperfectly so. What if only 90% of the matter stream gets through? Is that other 10% that is "lost" going to be important to the person? Could it be incapacitating or even fatal? That could lead to a scenario where it is still quite possible but yet highly risky to beam through objects (no way of knowing how many might get through.)

Lastly, why the fuck have most of the crew been killed? I can nominally at least understand why engines and weapons and fighters might be contrived out of the debate (because of how they'd interfere with debating the scenario) but removing a huge chunk of the crew makes no sense.

[Metahive]

And yet we've never seen this tactic at any other time. Not during BOBW, not during First Contact (it would have been a damned useful tactic both times), after the Borg had supposedly had time to "adapt" to Federation weapons and shields. Why should we assume that a) the Borg would be smart enough to use a tactic of the week, and b) that it would even work against a substantially more powerful and previously unknown (and therefore one to which the Borg have not yet "adapted") opponent?

I'm not saying it would work flawlessly, I'm just saying there's precedent for them having used that tactic.

And how would you "prove" this? We see numerous and contradictory examples of Treknology all the time. One day the transporters work through miles of solid earth, the next day a mild windstorm prevents them from working. What are we left with, if anything?

So what? One day SW blasters bring down entire rock columns, the other day they just weakly splinter things off of rock. Really, if any contradiction immediately prevents calculating the strength of a certain technology, we wouldn't be having any sort of VS. debates. I must repeat that Norade made the claim that "everybody knows" that transporters don't reach through solid rock. Why is it wrong for me to challenge that claim?

Really? This wasn't answered four pages ago? Assuming the Borg "transport the crew out" tactic actually works, the Borg would win. They have a magic uber-tech for which the Imperials have no counter.

Depends on how many transporters there're on a Borg Cube and how quickly the Imps notice it and can get their shit together and erect some sort of jamming field. It's not all black and white.

Transporters by nature will almost HAVE to rely on some means of accurate targeting at the destination point, whether it is some sort of beacon of some kind or extensive use of sensors - people who transport always arrive at approximately the right elevation (eg they're not rematerializing 5-10 feet in the air, or embedded in something, or whatever.) and orientation (not being upside down or anything.) Which means of course that if your sensors are interefered with in some way, or blocked, transporting becomes considerably riskier. Will jamming NULLIFY the ability to transport? No, it won't, but it becomes basically a guessing game of where troops will be transported, if they will get there safely, or what. THey won't know the interior of an ISD, and that is going to limit the tactical effectiveness of transporters.

That is true, most of the time when transporters are jammed, it's a problem of getting a lock onto a target, not that the beams itself are blocked. What it will do is preventing stuff from getting beamed out and maybe also beamed in, not so sure there since in those cases the transporter officer almost always just punches in "coordinates". So jamming might prevent the Borg from transporting the crew out, but maybe not from beaming things in.

Also mass and density are NOT the same thing. We dont know the relationships between mass (and amounts of mass) and density, so trying to equate the two is silly. Furthermore, I am puzzled why it is continually assumed that transportation is an either/or event (EG you arrive safely or not at all) when it comes to thinks like beaming through objects. A Transporter could still (in theory) transport through an object or forceffield, but imperfectly so. What if only 90% of the matter stream gets through? Is that other 10% that is "lost" going to be important to the person? Could it be incapacitating or even fatal? That could lead to a scenario where it is still quite possible but yet highly risky to beam through objects (no way of knowing how many might get through.)

Now there are transporter accidents, like in ST TMP where subjects are reassembled "wrong" and die almost immediately after, but I guess after that they instated rules that prohibit transporting if no safe arrival can be guaranteed.

[Thanas]

If I were a mod of this forum, most of your "contributions" would be HoS'ed, Metahive. Thankfully for you I am not. But suffice it so say that apparently you have no grasp of what c, speed, armor or logic are.

If you wanted to ask "how many drones can a Stormtrooper kill before he runs out of ammo" then you should have asked that. BTW, the "beam through shields" stuff is used only once. Never in Voyager against the crew. All of this tells us that it is either a tactic that can only kill a few people at a time or that it needs extraordinary circumstances to work.