Borg vs. ISD

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Re: Borg vs. ISD

Post by Kythnos »

Baffalo wrote:
Metahive wrote:Further, while I certainly can agree that damaging the ISD will make things easier, all a cube would really need to do is just ram the ISD and let simple physics overwhelm the shields. We know the ISD can take a beating, but when you get a Borg ship travelling at a good fraction of c, then hitting another object, I highly doubt the shields could hold. While we never see the damage from Empire Strikes Back when two ISDs collide, some damage must have occurred. A Cube is much larger and, therefor, probably masses more as well.
Not really as easy as you would think it to be, the ST races use "mass-lightening" Tech to allow them to travel at or near C. Since much of the damage from ramming is directly attributed to a vessel's mass, the lack of it may negate the damage you would expect. Although the extent can't be quoted for sure, the lack of ramming in ST seems to back this up.
(The only time I remember seeing it used is against the Odyssey and then it seemed to be a chain reaction not much direct damage done that did the work.)
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Re: Borg vs. ISD

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

It was also used effectively at the first battle of Chin'toka I believe, with Jem Hadar attack bugs ramming klingon birds of prey and attack cruisers, killing 20 odd IIRC

And, yes, the Odyssey got raped rather spectacularly. The bug rammed through the main deflector (which as we know from STFC is "Charged with anti-protons it could destroy half the ship") then rips out the far side of the engineering hull and nailsthe starboard nacelle. warp core breach quickly follows, but even if it hadn't that's some pretty crippling structural damage
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Re: Borg vs. ISD

Post by Kythnos »

Eternal_Freedom wrote:It was also used effectively at the first battle of Chin'toka I believe, with Jem Hadar attack bugs ramming klingon birds of prey and attack cruisers, killing 20 odd IIRC
Ok I did not remember that, and correct me if I am wrong here, but since all ships where under the effect of "mass-lightening" it would negate its effect. Such would not be the case with a ISD.
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Re: Borg vs. ISD

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

As far as I know, the mass-lightening was on, but a sensible tactic for the Jem Hadar would be to switch off the field nanoseconds before impact, thus allowing the speed to build up and then gaining the extra mass for impact.

Or possibly even reversing the field, making the ships much heavier, which might explain the unexpected effectiveness of the attacks
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Re: Borg vs. ISD

Post by Azron_Stoma »

I recall mike calculating the force behind those ramming attacks, it wasn't terribly impressive, and we've never seen them use that "switch off" mass lightening trick before. The sudden increase in inertia and such might destroy the ship in question long before it hits it's target.

I guess it might depend on how the mass lightening works, though I doubt it would be a matter of, all the mass/inertia increase that would have occurred during acceleration suddenly starts to take affect if the mass lightening thing is turned off.

Still, there is no precedent to a high speed ramming attack.
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Re: Borg vs. ISD

Post by Batman »

Assuming they can reverse the effect and that the ship simply doesn't massively slow down the moment you kill mass lightening. The ship keeping its velocity from before the (presumably quite considerable) mass increase would mean it magically gaining a fuckton of KE and momentum out of nowhere.
Same goes for increasing the mass, BTW, even if they can do it.
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Re: Borg vs. ISD

Post by Eternal_Freedom »

Twas merely speculation, an extrapolation of what they might possibly be able to do, given how little we know of the mechanics of that mass-lightening crap
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Re: Borg vs. ISD

Post by Batman »

I'm not entirely sure mass lightening would work to begin with, now that I think about it. The point of mass lightening as I understand it is to make a ship that is too heavy to move by reaction engines as available to you faster and/or more agile. Except the reactant for those same engines is on you ship and thus equally reduced in mass. You're essentially stuck with the same problem, only with the numbers involved being smaller.
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Re: Borg vs. ISD

Post by Stark »

Kythnos wrote:Not really as easy as you would think it to be, the ST races use "mass-lightening" Tech to allow them to travel at or near C.
Like when?
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Re: Borg vs. ISD

Post by Batman »

Stark wrote:
Kythnos wrote:Not really as easy as you would think it to be, the ST races use "mass-lightening" Tech to allow them to travel at or near C.
Like when?
This ought to be interesting :D
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'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
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'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
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Re: Borg vs. ISD

Post by Kythnos »

Stark wrote:Like when?
Memory Alpha: subspace field wrote:In 2369, Deep Space 9 Chief of Operations Miles O'Brien was able to modify the subspace field output of the station's deflector generators enough to create a low-level subspace field around the station. This had the effect of reducing the station's inertial mass enough to allow the station's thrusters to move it from Bajor to the mouth of the Bajoran wormhole, enabling Bajor to stake a claim to the wormhole before the Cardassians could. (DS9: "Emissary")
I am fairly sure that it is mention elsewhere also but that is one example. (and being slightly lazy it was my first stop at MA)
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Re: Borg vs. ISD

Post by Stark »

No, that's an example of mass-lightening, which is well known. Your claim they travel 'at or near c' isn't supported by that example.
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Re: Borg vs. ISD

Post by Batman »

Stark wrote:No, that's an example of mass-lightening, which is well known. Your claim they travel 'at or near c' isn't supported by that example.
While I misunderstood your complaint to be about mass-lightening as well, this, too, should be interesting.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
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Re: Borg vs. ISD

Post by Kythnos »

Stark wrote:No, that's an example of mass-lightening, which is well known. Your claim they travel 'at or near c' isn't supported by that example.
Ok further information:
A phenomenon caused when an object is partially encased in a subspace field, thus altering the gravitational constant of the encased portion and giving the different parts different inertial densities. Subspace compression causes stress to be placed on the object, and in extreme cases can cause it to be destroyed on an atomic level. In addition to this danger there is considerable risk of damage to the platform projecting the subspace field, although a modern Starship is capable of withstanding a considerable degree of subspace compression. The Enterprise-D once attempted to correct the orbit of a moon orbiting Bre'el IV by wrapping a subspace field around part of it, thus resulting in subspace compression. The attempt failed, but as a result of non technical factors rather than any problems with the method employed.(TNG: "Deja Q")
All objects inside this field are subject to the "lightening" effect.
A subspace field with a value of 1 Cochrane or more. Starships use their warp coils to generate a warp field in order to facilitate faster than light propulsion. (TNG: "Deja Q")
This field is measured in "Cochranes".
Federation Type-15 shuttlepods were equipped with two long-range 750 millicochrane impulse driver engines. (TNG: "Descent")

Federation short-range shuttcraft are powered with two 1,250 millicochrane warp engines. (TNG: "The Outcast")
Shows that both Impulse and Warp Drive use Subspace fields when they move the ship.

Now you can argue that they are not the same "Subspace fields" but you would have to provide proof to that effect.

Batman wrote:While I misunderstood your complaint to be about mass-lightening as well, this, too, should be interesting.
Yeah so did I at first I thought I had put down "mass lightning" (and if I did in any parts sorry about that)
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Re: Borg vs. ISD

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Stark wrote:So... what? You're seriously arguing from units? :lol:
Unless you can show evidence that Cochranes are used to measure anything other than Subspace fields or why there is any room for doubt then yes.
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Re: Borg vs. ISD

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Stark wrote:So... what? You're seriously arguing from units? :lol:
As in, all of that shows they do apparently use mass lightening with impulse drive. Zero evidence for them moving fractions of c worth mentioning in that.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
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Re: Borg vs. ISD

Post by Norade »

Not going to quote the posts as between my last post and now over a page has sprouted up but I will explain why transporting through the hull is likely not going to happen. First of all, we know that they have issues transporting through significant volumes of plain rock, we also know that ISD's have super dense hulls. Assuming the density of hull armor is no more than that of depleted Uranium and that the thickest armor is no more than 19.7m thick as per Curtis Saxton's work*. Assuming that most of the hull was clad in only 10m of armor we get a density of 191 tons per square meter that is 7.31 times more dense than limestone, and 9.54 times more dense than crushed gravel. Averaging the two means that transporting through an armored section of hull is near equivalent to transporting through 84.25m of earth and limestone. This is a feat that transports should be able to do, but we see transports fail time and again due to things so common as radiation that thickness as well as exotic materials makes transporting in less than likely.

You can argue that there are going to be ways in, but those ways should be rather easy to seal off even if the ship is damaged. Things like simple blast doors to keep the Borg out of areas they can't transport into should suffice to keep the crew safe until a plan of action can be put into effect. Assuming that the zombies, or the ever changing scenario, make the fighters and other craft unusable the crew should at least have enough small arms and supplies to repel the invaders long enough to effect some repairs. In an absolute worst case scenario they may have some F-Webs (shielded versions of E-Webs that offer good protection to the crew), they also still have the shielded prefabricated garrison which they may be able to make use of in the defense of the ship.

*See the other dimensions section for the exact quote.
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Re: Borg vs. ISD

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Kythnos wrote:Unless you can show evidence that Cochranes are used to measure anything other than Subspace fields or why there is any room for doubt then yes.
Fuck off, idiot. Do you know how fields work? Do you know where in the field its measured? Do you have any evidence that arbritrary readings are equated to speed? No?

I mean, hey, the insignificant fact that you ave zero examples of this apparently casual and huge speed (and plenty against) sure isn't 'evidence', right? Remember that whole Voyager episode about an impulse race, where it wasn't LOLOLOL AT OR NEAR C DOODS?

Anyone who thinks ST shuttles travel at .75c is a literal moron and probably doesn't even understand how 'speed' works in space. Just imagine someone buying a car with a '150km/h' engine. Put it in another car - guaranteed 150km/h! 8)
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Re: Borg vs. ISD

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Stark wrote:Anyone who thinks ST shuttles travel at .75c is a literal moron and probably doesn't even understand how 'speed' works in space. Just imagine someone buying a car with a '150km/h' engine. Put it in another car - guaranteed 150km/h! 8)
Ah I see your problem now. Except that is not what I was saying in the slightest because warp 1 is C, to me that is near C. Considering the other speeds in ST even warp 2 fairly close and we shuttle travel at warp. I don't believe I ever said they could travel 90% lightspeed anywhere but feel free to show me different. All I said was that they use mass-lightening to move their ships. If my post imply different then it was a misunderstanding.
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Re: Borg vs. ISD

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Kythnos wrote:Ah I see your problem now. Except that is not what I was saying in the slightest because warp 1 is C, to me that is near C.
What?
Kythnos wrote:Considering the other speeds in ST even warp 2 fairly close and we shuttle travel at warp.
What?
I don't believe I ever said they could travel 90% lightspeed anywhere but feel free to show me different. All I said was that they use mass-lightening to move their ships. If my post imply different then it was a misunderstanding.
Fuck off, moron. You claimed 'at or near c', based on no evidence because you took ages to dig around MA to find it. Turns out whole episodes revolve around not-relativistic impulse speeds.
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Re: Borg vs. ISD

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Stark wrote:Fuck off, moron. You claimed 'at or near c', based on no evidence because you took ages to dig around MA to find it. Turns out whole episodes revolve around not-relativistic impulse speeds.
Yes because I was looking for Mass-Lightening effects and there connections with the drive systems in ST. Not for proof of Relativistic speed. Which if you checked the point I was trying to make would be obvious. (aka the effects of reduced mass on ramming ships) My defense of that is again based on that I thought you where disagreeing with the facts that ST uses Mass-Lightening.
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Re: Borg vs. ISD

Post by Metahive »

Norade wrote:Averaging the two means that transporting through an armored section of hull is near equivalent to transporting through 84.25m of earth and limestone. This is a feat that transports should be able to do, but we see transports fail time and again due to things so common as radiation that thickness as well as exotic materials makes transporting in less than likely.
The Tantalus V Penal Colony was located way underground and yet they needed a force field to block transporters. They use the lift at first, but later Spock beams directly in just fine. Likewise with the underground colony on Janus VI, so no, no matter how much you wank an ISD's armor density, there's a good reason to believe it alone won't stop the transporter beams, and the rest of the quote is just assumptions. "Exotic materials" = "Automatic transporter suppression", huh? Lazy.
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Re: Borg vs. ISD

Post by Imperial528 »

For one thing, transporters are rather schizophrenic when it comes to what they will or will not beam through, so it's rather hard to quantify examples unless one finds out just what type of rock was being beamed through. Just throwing that out there.

Another thing, I remember reading somewhere that one of the components of durasteel (the material used for starship hulls and armor in SW) is neutronium, which Trek ships have never been able to damage, scan through, or transport through. However, I can't recall where I read it, so take this with a grain of salt.
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Re: Borg vs. ISD

Post by Metahive »

The one sort of neutronium the Feds can't beam through is the "solid neutronium" that surrounded the Doomsday Device. Since according to today's knowledge neutronium is never solid, that's either some sort of magical special neutronium or you can throw the whole quote out as Spock being stupid and/or mistaken.

EDIT: O, then there was also that "Dyson Sphere" that was made out of "Neutronium-Carbon" alloy. Don't remember if they tried beaming through that though.
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