Trek Fleet counts

[Norade]

Picard, still waiting for you to show me a picture of where this shaft is on the DSII. If it's such common knowledge you should have no issue finding one.

[Picard]

Picard, still waiting for you to show me a picture of where this shaft is on the DSII. If it's such common knowledge you should have no issue finding one.

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2 ... sschem.jpg

Bullshit. It was stated that the Klingons had been working on it, and we have an entire episode involving a romulan phase cloak.

I did not say "working on" but "with working". That means that cloak actually worked as expected.

See? You DO ignore canon when it doesn't suit your madness.

Look who's talking. You misinterpret canon, and then you accuse me of ignoring canon beacouse I ignore your misinterpretations. You are classic liar.

It's not that you dismiss the EU, but you even ignore ST-canon when you have to.

Simply wrong.

And besides - what makes you think they will immediately ignore the treaty of algeron, even tough they did not do it during the Dominon War, even tough they were allied with the Romulans?

And what makes you think treaty will hold? Plus Sisko ignored fact that he was not allowed to use cloak inside Alpha Quadrant almost every episode.

Furthermore, since the cloak and phase-parts of the thing are apparently separate, why didn't they build just the phase-part? Given that it would make their ships virtually invulnerable, any sensible military would go after it no matter what.

No, cloak and phase parts are not separate, phasing ship is what makes phased ship cloak in first place. Warping facts again, eh?

You fail utterly at logic. Just because something is supposed to do something, it can't automatically do it. Especially when it's still a prototype. That's not even logic, that's just basic common sense.

Except that phase cloak has been shown to actually work.

The Empire is very capable of building shields that stop physical impacts. They can easily equip the second Death Star with them if they want to. That they choose not do do so with the first Death Star is no proof, given that there are many possible reasons not to do it - such as enemy ships (supposedly) being no threat, or the fact that ramming attacks are utterly useless anyway.

We don't know if Death Star II was to be equipped with such shields, and we don't know if such shields would actually work against interphase cloak.

Moron. The (tangential) point was that ST-sensors are sometimes WORSE than the MK I Eyeball and basic optic instruments.

Sometimes. And sometimes radar is useless. Should we take it that radar is always useless?

If you HAVE such evidence, present it. However, the film never states what it was. The film shows that it was not a straight shaft, but rather a meddled assembly of open ways inside the Death Star.

So, death star II was supposed to function like this:

"Charging superlaser"
"Superlaser charged"
"Superlaser fired"
"Reactor has melted. Calling a tug"

Ignoring evidence makes you a liar.

So I can call you "Mrs. Liar" now?

[takemeout_totheblack]

Uh yeah Picard, those aren't exhaust ports. I always assumed that they were maintenance shafts for smaller construction vessels to get inside the DSII in order to put it together. The fact that they went all the way to the power-core suggest that they were used to put it together. The fact that they branch off into other parts of the super structure pretty much proves that they aren't any sort of energy management system, seeing as how you don't want planet-buster waste energy going anywhere but out. Also, why would the thermal exhaust port on the DSII be big enough to fly a freighter into?

Please, back up your claims with actual evidence, write a thesis and use sources, make a new thread and post it there, seeing as how this thread has strayed from the topic of how many ships the Feddies have to the Death Star II. Shit like this gets locked.

[fallendragon]

Picard what is your proof that the Enterprise was allowed to keep the phase-cloak? And since when has one good test = funtioning device?


And the fact that sisko regually ignores the ban on where you can use cloaks HURTS your arguement you realize that right?

And on the sensor issue I assume Picard has counter points to all the problems with Star Trek sensors problems bought up on the main site? (which I would love to hear)

And Picard here is a nice little page on the Death Stars, inclueding design flaws and how they were fixed. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Death_Star

[Serafina]

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2 ... sschem.jpg

That's pretty damn inconclusive, compared to what we see in the movie. Furthermore, it doesn't state that those are exhaust shafts.

I did not say "working on" but "with working". That means that cloak actually worked as expected.

Then why is no one ever using it?
Right, sorry, your are imagining things again.

Look who's talking. You misinterpret canon, and then you accuse me of ignoring canon beacouse I ignore your misinterpretations. You are classic liar.

Bullshit. You are outright ignoring both C-canon and ST-canon. Your conclusion is pretty weak and obviously not based on evidence.

Simply wrong.

No, it isn't. You claimed that the Federation is the only faction working on phase-cloaks, despite evidence to the contrary.

And what makes you think treaty will hold? Plus Sisko ignored fact that he was not allowed to use cloak inside Alpha Quadrant almost every episode.

Did he use a phase-cloak? Hmm?

No, cloak and phase parts are not separate, phasing ship is what makes phased ship cloak in first place. Warping facts again, eh?

Hardly - but hey, how about some evidence?

Except that phase cloak has been shown to actually work.

Yes, it has shown that it can penetrate a low-density material. Not that it can penetrate thick layers of dense metal. That's just you jumping to conclusions.

We don't know if Death Star II was to be equipped with such shields, and we don't know if such shields would actually work against interphase cloak.

Yes, we don't know it. Thanks for admitting that. But you just automatically conclude that it can, can't you?

Sometimes. And sometimes radar is useless. Should we take it that radar is always useless?

Again, you don't get what i am talking about. When they can't detect a ship that is visible to the naked eye, then that's pretty good evidence that their visual sensors are worse than just a simple eye.

So, death star II was supposed to function like this:

"Charging superlaser"
"Superlaser charged"
"Superlaser fired"
"Reactor has melted. Calling a tug"

HEY, MORON: THEY HAD MILLIONS OF SMALL VENTS! Again, you are ignoring canon.

So I can call you "Mrs. Liar" now?

Sure you can - you can throw hollow insults around as much as you like. That would just illustrate your low moral character.

[Picard]

Please, back up your claims with actual evidence, write a thesis and use sources, make a new thread and post it there, seeing as how this thread has strayed from the topic of how many ships the Feddies have to the Death Star II. Shit like this gets locked.

You're right, I made new thread here:
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 4#p3425734

[Eternal_Freedom]

IIRC, during the ROTJ briefing, the DS2 hologram shows at least FOUR tunnels into the superstructure, none of them straight, all of them branching off into other sectors. Also, the fact that they AREN't smooth, straight tunnels lined with the same material all the way down is a dead giveaway

[CaptJodan]

While I hesitate to post this for fear it will be seen as dogpiling, not to mention that I doubt it'll do any good whatsoever given Picard's unrelenting dishonesty, I feel it bears mentioning.

Even if we assume that the phase cloak worked 100% perfectly, and required no further refinements in Starfleet to perfect (a claim that isn't proved in the show), Picard (the show version) effectively nixed it's development by telling the Federation council, not to mention the Romulans, all about it. He assumes:

-The Federation kept the plans and prototype. This isn't backed up by anything, and it was likely politically nonviable. Once the Romulans knew of the existence of the cloak, they would have undoubtedly demanded the prototype be destroyed and perhaps demanded a kind of "inspector" program to ensure that no one else tried to create the cloak again. That Picard allowed the Romulans to see the cloak and see the treaty violation puts Starfleet in a position that forces them to rid themselves of the technology.

-The US went to the moon. That doesn't mean we can go to the moon again in 6 months or a year. When funding for a highly secret and highly expensive project is cut, the ability to recreate that technology is often lost and you have to start from scratch. In the case of the moon, no one was looking over our shoulder forcing us to get rid of it. The same can't be said for the Romulans in regards to the cloak.

Finally, the Federation was involved in a war that they very well could have lost with the Dominion, and came close to losing on several occasions. They were allied with the Romulans in that war. Parts of the Federation engaged in duplicitous acts that violated the Federation charter. Section 31, the organization most likely to have had the prototype or plans to the phase cloak because of their clandestine nature (and the Federation's most "dirty tricks" organization), never mentioned or used such a device to help save the Federation and billions of lives. They instead had to rely on biological weapons. There were no proposals to use the device against Borg incursions, equipping ships in secret for the next Borg incursion, a race that likely threatens everyone in the Alpha quadrant. As Serafina pointed out in shorter terms and Picard ignored, there have been instances where a phase cloak would have been appropriate, but it never appears.

In short, it's pretty blindingly obvious that the phase cloak is lost technology. There was one, probably not fully perfected, prototype that was likely destroyed along with all the data that made it in order to hold to their treaty. Whether because they can't make it anymore or because they don't have the political will, the result is the same. There wouldn't be a phase cloak on the battlefield in a Trek vs. Wars scenario because there wasn't one fielded in the Dominion War, a war they were very close to losing, nor for any kind of Borg defense. Also, no hint of such a cloak in any possible future timeline we see.

[Kythnos]

I know this Thread was massively sidetracked but the Topic Title is still of interest to me so maybe we can get back to the subject at hand.

Star Trek Fleet Counts

For Klingon fleet figures, watch DS9 episode "When It Rains". Alliance just lost 300 ships in Second Battle of Chin'toka, but single Bird of Prey was unaffected by Breen weapon. General Martok states that "by tomorrow they (Klingons) will have 1500 vessels ready for fight". Romulan commander warns him that with Dominion, Breen and Cardassian vessels, they will still be outnumbered 20 to 1. That means these 3 have minimum of 30 000 ships, after year of full-blown warfare.

Before I really look at those number I want to examine the context a little.
I have a few statements about this and want a few opinions about it:

First this would be a classic case of Hyperbole the Romulan commander is simply pointing out the hopelessness of the situation. Add in the odds that the commander just happen to have exact figures about the enemy on hand. This could also have been a back handed put down of the Klingons in general showing their eagerness to die in an impossible situation.

On the other hand

Romulan information gathering is one of the best in the alpha quadrant and he could be boasting about his superior knowledge of the enemy. (the best use of the romulan cloak is spying as it has little value in battles) Backed up by the fact that there was peace between the 2 factions not long ago and less than a year before and a Romulan Senator was on a tour of the Dominion systems. Some part of vulcan heritage/pride may demand exact figures or at least as accurate as the situation allows. This is also a War council I would imagine they would have as accurate numbers as possible right in front of them.

Can anyone add any other points either for or against this statement as being fact?
Which side you do you think is right and why?

[hunter5]

Even if Picard's numbers are right that means each of the enemies have somewhere around 10,000 total ships each which presumable includes fighters so still not much of a threat.

[fallendragon]

Even if Picard's numbers are right that means each of the enemies have somewhere around 10,000 total ships each which presumable includes fighters so still not much of a threat.

Umm, what exactly is the reason that Trek fleet counts are assumed to inclued fighters?

[Big Phil]

Even if Picard's numbers are right that means each of the enemies have somewhere around 10,000 total ships each which presumable includes fighters so still not much of a threat.

Umm, what exactly is the reason that Trek fleet counts are assumed to inclued fighters?

I'm not enough of a nerd to go back and watch this episode myself, so I'm going to quote Darth Wong himself

The Federation dedicated a significant portion of its forces (two complete fleets) to an attack on DS9 in an attempt to regain control of the wormhole during the Dominion war. This task force consisted of roughly 600 ships, including fighters. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that the Federation possessed no more than a few thousand ships at the time. This is also consistent with dialogue from Way of the Warrior which established that a Klingon attack force comprised over a third of the Klingon military, and that the very first wave of the attack would consist of over a hundred ships. If we assume that there are several waves (three or four) it logically follows that the Klingon fleet is from 1000-2000 ships. The Federation fleet would logically be of similar or smaller size, because the Klingon fleet has a significant proportion of very small BOP-class warships, while the Federation fleet tends to consist of larger vessels, which were usually several hundred metres in length or more.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... stry1.html

[Eternal_Freedom]

But that still doesn't say WHY ST fleets include fighters

[hunter5]

In Sacrifice of the Angels they do no mention either way when the mention the fleet counts. I am not really sure where Wong got the idea from, but Wong isn't one to make stuff up so I take his word for it and will do so until I find out other wise.

[Stofsk]

Yeah well in this case he totally made it up, because there was no mention of it in the episode in question, nor at any other point in the show.

Numbers don't matter that much. The Dominion fleet outnumbered the Federation fleet 2 to 1, but a lot of those Dominion ships would be Jem'hadar bug ships, which the Defiant wtfpwns without breaking a sweat, and Cardassian Galor class ships, which Galaxies rape. And of course the Federation fleet had Mirandas, which seem to be really good at blowing up.

[Big Phil]

Even if he's wrong, and the Federation does not include fighters in its fleet counts, you're still only talking about 600 capital ships (battleships, cruisers, destroyers, and frigates). Wong's assumption that the Federation fleet is a few thousand ships (regardless of whether that count includes fighters) makes logical sense if this is truly a "significant portion" of Federation strength. So unless someone actually wants to argue that the Federation half-assed the Dominion War, and actually has tens of thousands of capital ships it just didn't send into battle for no logicla reason, assuming a fleet strength of several thousand ships makes a lot of sense.

In addition, after Wolf 359 (Federation lost 39 starships) Riker said it would take a year to rebuild/replace those ships. Dialogue being what it is in ST, that's not an exact statement, but if Riker thinks it would take a year to replace 40 warships, I doubt the Federation is building hundreds of ships each week. Maybe it actually builds 60 ships a year, but that's still eight months to replace 40 warships (and train their crews).

Using that number as a baseline, if the Federation builds 40 starships a year, and each starship has a hull life of 100 years (I recall that number from TNG Technical Manual, but I don't say that's absolutely correct), then you're talking about a MAXIMUM of 4000 starships in the Federation, assuming no ships are lost in service, which is absurd - we know ships are lost with regularity to viruses, Ferengi, disease, etc.

[Stofsk]

I don't take issue with anything else he said about trek fleet counts, just the bit about fighters. I don't really disagree with anything you say either.

[Captain Seafort]

Using that number as a baseline, if the Federation builds 40 starships a year, and each starship has a hull life of 100 years (I recall that number from TNG Technical Manual, but I don't say that's absolutely correct), then you're talking about a MAXIMUM of 4000 starships in the Federation, assuming no ships are lost in service, which is absurd - we know ships are lost with regularity to viruses, Ferengi, disease, etc.

A couple of problems with that. First, the figure was 25 years between major refits, giving a fleet strength of 10k. Second, and far more importantly, the figure of 40/year is certain to be a gross underestimate, as it refers to the Feds shipbuilding capacity over and above normal replacement construction. While some of the ships at Wolf may have been on the verge of retirement, not all of them would have been. Certainly the GCS and Nebulas, and probably the Ambassador(s) too were modern designs, which would have remained in service had they not been destroyed there.

[Big Phil]

Using that number as a baseline, if the Federation builds 40 starships a year, and each starship has a hull life of 100 years (I recall that number from TNG Technical Manual, but I don't say that's absolutely correct), then you're talking about a MAXIMUM of 4000 starships in the Federation, assuming no ships are lost in service, which is absurd - we know ships are lost with regularity to viruses, Ferengi, disease, etc.

A couple of problems with that. First, the figure was 25 years between major refits, giving a fleet strength of 10k.

How do you figure 25 years between refits = 10,000 capital ships? That's some interesting mathematics.

Second, and far more importantly, the figure of 40/year is certain to be a gross underestimate, as it refers to the Feds shipbuilding capacity over and above normal replacement construction. While some of the ships at Wolf may have been on the verge of retirement, not all of them would have been. Certainly the GCS and Nebulas, and probably the Ambassador(s) too were modern designs, which would have remained in service had they not been destroyed there.

What do you base this on? Your gut feelings don't matter here - if you're going to argue the Federation has 5000 ships rather than 3000, then demonstrate how that could be. But No Numbers arguments don't fly.

[Captain Seafort]

How do you figure 25 years between refits = 10,000 capital ships? That's some interesting mathematics.[/quotes]

*squints* Because I misread "100 years" in your post as "10 years", and derived my answer from your 4k. Fuck.

Sorry about that.

What do you base this on?

The fact that the replacement of the ships lost at Wolf will have to be added to those being retired because they're worn out? Basic common sense. I'm not making any arguments regarding specific numbers, merely that those ships that would have been retired that year because they've reached the end of their operational life will still have to be retired and replaced. Whether the construction required to replace the Wolf fleet in addition to this is 10%, 50% or 100% of normal, or even more, doesn't really matter. What matters is that anyone who takes Shelby's statement that it would take a year to replace those 40 ships to mean that the Federation can produce 40 ships a year at most is a fucking idiot.

[Captain Seafort]

And not only can I not count zeros, but I apparently can't quote properly either. Could a passing mod please fix that?

[Big Phil]

How do you figure 25 years between refits = 10,000 capital ships? That's some interesting mathematics.[/quotes]

*squints* Because I misread "100 years" in your post as "10 years", and derived my answer from your 4k. Fuck.

Sorry about that.

What do you base this on?

The fact that the replacement of the ships lost at Wolf will have to be added to those being retired because they're worn out? Basic common sense. I'm not making any arguments regarding specific numbers, merely that those ships that would have been retired that year because they've reached the end of their operational life will still have to be retired and replaced. Whether the construction required to replace the Wolf fleet in addition to this is 10%, 50% or 100% of normal, or even more, doesn't really matter. What matters is that anyone who takes Shelby's statement that it would take a year to replace those 40 ships to mean that the Federation can produce 40 ships a year at most is a fucking idiot.

Your argument that obviously the Federation can build more than 40 ships a year isn't coming from anywhere; it's just a gut feeling you have. Either demonstrate the Federation's shipbuilding capacity is greater than that (i.e., show specifically how and where Mike's calculations are incorrect), or drop this No Numbers bullshit.

[Captain Seafort]

Your argument that obviously the Federation can build more than 40 ships a year isn't coming from anywhere; it's just a gut feeling you have.

It's based on Shelby's explicit statement in BoBW that they could "have the fleet back up in less than a year". I.e. that Starfleet could be restored to pre-battle strength in that time. Unless you wish to argue that Starfleet ships last forever (baring accidents such as the Borg), then this obviously refers to additional construction over and above normal replacement of ships being retired. I make no claim regarding how much this exceeds normal replacement construction, merely that it does and must. I fail to see how this statement can be considered in any way controversial.

[Big Phil]

Great, so now Destructionator is coming along with more No Numbers bullshit. Look, I acknowledge what Shelby (not Riker, apparently) said indicates that Starfleet can build at least 40 ships in a year. No issues with that. But if 40 ships was just a drop in the bucket, then why would anyone be concerned about the loss of 40 ships? If Starfleet is building 1000 ships a year, why wouldn't Shelby say they would be replaced in a week?

Regardless, you aren't providing any actual calculations about the size of Starfleet. You pulled 10,000 out of your ass by arguing 25 years between refits (I fail to see what that has to do with fleet size), and you've yet to demonstrate Federation shipbuilding capacity is in excess of 40 ships/year (except by "common sense").

I'll say it again - either show actual, canonical numbers demonstrating a Starfleet ship size in excess of a couple of thousand starships, or concede.

[Batman]

Err-nobody's saying the '40 ships in less than a year' comment gives any definite information about Fed shipbuilding capacity?
All that we know so far is that a) it'll take the Feds somewhere less than a year to replace those 40 ships on top WHATEVER their usual replacement/expansion rate (if any) is.
That DOES put a natural damper on outrageous building rates (if they built 1000s of hulls a year an additional 40 would be pretty small fry) but again, nobody claimed that.
Nobody's claimed any numbers based on Wolf 359. From what I can tell the consensus actually seems to be you CAN'T base fleet numbers on Wolf 359.