Why do Trekkies claim this?

[IvanTih]

Why do they claim that Federation ships are faster in navigated space,I don't get it.We clearly see that in TNG that warp drive has same speed in navigated and non-navigated regions.
I am debating with one trekkie about this and he says this(it's about 40k vs Star Trek).
If anyone is interested in thread here's the link.
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php ... ost2600576
He also claims that ST ships have massive firepower(photon torpedo more powerful than 64 megatons,thing like that).

[DrStrangelove]

It's a rationalization for all the outliers where they appear to go faster than normal

[Batman]

Um-isn't any space I'm travelling through navigated by definition?

I assume he means ROUTINELY navigated and thus well CHARTED which might or might no be accurate.
Given possible limits on Trek sensors it MAY be they can afford to travel faster when knowing when and in which direction to dodge ahead of time than they can when they actually have to REACT to something they might have to dodge as it shows up on sensors.
I DO seem to recall SOMETHING about them being faster in charted space but that's not necessarily from canon information.

As for the torpedo yields, ask for evidence. If they cite the TNG TM, that source is DOUBLY out.
1. It's not canon. They don't like it, they can take it up with Paramount.
2. It NEVER mentions the 64MT figure. Anywhere. That's just the theoretical maximum for a perfect reaction between the stated antimatter payload and a presumably equal matter payload. Nowhere does it say the matter payload IS equally large nor does it say a word about the efficiency of the reaction.

Given that the TNG TM ALSO gives a Type X phaser array a whopping 1.05 GW of firepower, one wonders why anybody uses phasers anymore since a single 64MT torpedo at 10 percent yield delivered represents 295 days of continuous phaser fire from a Type X array

[IvanTih]

He also tells that TM isn't cannon.

[Batman]

Then ask where he gets the 64MT (or more) figure from because absolutely NOTHING in filmed Star Trek supports that, and if they were, one wonders why ENT-D was expected to need most of her torpedoes to blow apart a measly 5 km asteroid in TNG's Pegasus.
And while I know it's a widely spread typo there is no third n in caNon.

[IvanTih]

Then ask where he gets the 64MT (or more) figure from because absolutely NOTHING in filmed Star Trek supports that, and if they were, one wonders why ENT-D was expected to need most of her torpedoes to blow apart a measly 5 km asteroid in TNG's Pegasus.
And while I know it's a widely spread typo there is no third n in caNon.

I try to tell him that,but he says since 40k has its high points why shouldn't ST,also believes that Warp Drive(40k ) can't cross 10,000ly in 10-40 days althougt I present him the quote.
Also brought that on Pegasus and about the weaknesses of the phaser and other occassions,but he dismisses them.

[Batman]

Ask him to SHOW EVIDENCE for the high point that gives Trek 64MT+ photorps
Especially as per TOS' 'The Doomsday Machine', they needed to overload the impulse engines on a Constitution class to get a measly 97.something megatons
If photon torpedoes are oh so powerful, why was that necessary?

[Srelex]

Weren't weapons systems disabled there, or am I misremembering things?

[IvanTih]

He argues that the ship was heavily damaged so the yield was smaller(97 megatons).
And he says so since he accepts TM interpretation of Isoton.
By the way just watching Enterprise,the scene where they are torturing Yoshi to extract information,do you think that Space Marine would resist torture easily in ST.
By the way other trekkie said that TM is not cannon when I presented the weakness of the phasers,that trekkie also despises Star Destroyer.net.
Any help from this site.

[Batman]

It's been eons since I saw that episode. So in what FASHION where the weapon systems disabled? Could they no longer LAUNCH torpedoes or were the torpedoes THEMSELVES rendered inert? Because I very much suspect they said 'disabled' and left it at that.

[IvanTih]

Either way I can't influence them,maybe I should quote something from SW vs ST?

[IvanTih]

Read the post number 207.
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=67667&page=11

[bz249]

Given that the TNG TM ALSO gives a Type X phaser array a whopping 1.05 GW of firepower, one wonders why anybody uses phasers anymore since a single 64MT torpedo at 10 percent yield delivered represents 295 days of continuous phaser fire from a Type X array

To be fair: uniform explosives represents a different kind of damage mechanism than focused coherent beams. Though this might not compensate for for the difference in yield.

(BTW 1GW is equal to 1 kg heavy object travelling at 44km/s so practically an unarmed torpedo hitting the hull is more destructive than a Type X phaser)

[bz249]

To be fair: uniform explosives represents a different kind of damage mechanism than focused coherent beams. Though this might not compensate for for the difference in yield.

(BTW 1GW is equal to 1 kg heavy object travelling at 44km/s so practically an unarmed torpedo hitting the hull is more destructive than a Type X phaser)

stupid of course I meant 1 GJ or 1 GWs

[dragon]

Then ask where he gets the 64MT (or more) figure from because absolutely NOTHING in filmed Star Trek supports that, and if they were, one wonders why ENT-D was expected to need most of her torpedoes to blow apart a measly 5 km asteroid in TNG's Pegasus.
And while I know it's a widely spread typo there is no third n in caNon.

Well we know they can increase the yields of torpeodos but that take extra effort.
Such as when LaForge was Supposedly loading antimatter into the weapons of the ship he was a prisoner on. And then there was the voyager episode where they working on the torpedo to increase it's yield, and Harry made comment enough to blow up a small moon, how moon. Granted how small who knows.

Maybe the 64 megaton is after modification.

[Azron_Stoma]

and Harry made comment enough to blow up a small moon, how moon. Granted how small who knows.

Ah yes the little hyperbole statement that could. Should also point out that Tuvok was visibly annoyed by Harry's random "Theories" in that scene and basically told him to fuck off.

I think the scene they are trying to get the 100+ megaton yields from is the Asteroid in VOY "Rise", in spite of the evidence to the contrary in that same episode.

But since when has actual contradictory evidence stood in the way of trektards?

Their defense of the pathetic yields displayed in VOY "Alliances" is that they wanted to avoid collateral damage, but if that was the case just one Torpedo at triple the yield of the 3 Torpedoes they fired at the Kazon ship would have sufficed, or even a phaser blast for that matter, that they would waste torpedoes which are at a Premium on voyager is a sign of either weak torpedoes even at maximum yield or stupidity.

[LionElJonson]

Eh. Even if they do have 64 megaton torpedoes, Trek ships still can't scratch a 40k ship. At most they'd just make the void shield flicker a bit before they get turned into scrap metal with a single macrocannon barrage.

[IvanTih]

One question,would Borg be able teleport through Void Shields of the IOM ships?
One guy claims this,but I don't think that they would be able to do this because of all those metres of adamanitum on the IOM ships.

[SapphireFox]

One question,would Borg be able teleport through Void Shields of the IOM ships?
One guy claims this,but I don't think that they would be able to do this because of all those metres of adamanitum on the IOM ships.

Likely not as Void shields have never to my knowledge been shown to use that frequency BS that Star Trek shields use. The only times I have seen someone beam through the shields are when someone knows and uses the knowledge of the shield frequency or timing the beam out with the shield cycle like O'brien did in "The Wounded" in TNG.

Also I would bet good money that you would be correct about the meters thick adamantium armor plate protecting the Imperium ships from beaming. This has been shown in ST many times that dense materials or thick materials do indeed shield against beaming. I would tend to think the adamantium plate would be both.

[Vympel]

The navigated space rationalisation isn't terribly credible. From something I prepared a few months ago for the next time it comes up:-

Introduction

The question being dealt with is the FTL capability of Federation starships in the "TNG" era - i.e. the period covering 2364 to 2379 (TNG, DS9, VOY and the various films).

It will be demonstrated by review of explicit canon quotes from multiple episodes from all three series that the range of warp speed in the TNG era is most commonly depicted as:-

* A nominal, average cruise speed over long distances of roughly ~1,000c;
* Absolute maximum warp capability of roughly ~21,000c.

Appeals to instances of higher FTL speeds from The Original Series will be addressed.

Appeals to ostensibly higher speeds from within the TNG era will also be addressed and rebutted.

All references to warp speed will be in terms of "c".

About the limits of high warp speed

The first thing to remember in any discussion about high warp speeds in Star Trek is the fact that it cannot be maintained indefinitely. The faster you go, the more strain you put on the engines, and the sooner you have to stop.

We have no firm indicator of how long you can sustain what is termed “high warp”, but the limit is clearly there.

In TNG “Legacy”, Data indicates that the Enterprise has ‘maintained warp factor 9 for longer than is recommended’.

In TNG “The Chase”, Picard records in his log that the Enterprise-D’s ‘frequent use of high warp over the last few days has overextended the propulsion systems’. This necessitates “minor repairs” before the journey can continue.

The entire premise of VOY also backs this up – if high warp” can be maintained for any appreciable period of time, then the USS Voyager’s journey back to the Alpha Quadrant over 75,000 light years would not have been projected to take 75 years.

The explicit evidence regarding speed

By "explicit evidence", I mean instances where the time for a ship to travel a certain distance is explicitly indicated in the canon, allowing for a calculation of speed.




The Next Generation

In, TNG "Where No One Has Gone Before", Geordi indicates that it would take 300 years to travel 2.7 million LY at "maximum warp", for an average velocity of 9,000c (i.e. 9,000 times the speed of light).

In "Q, Who", Data indicates that it would take 2.6 years at maximum warp to get back to Federation space, after being hurled a distance of 7,000LY by Q- giving us an upper limit average velocity of ~2,700c.

On its face, this is a contradiction, but it is easily reconcilable. A trip of 300 years is not something that Geordi La Forge would seriously consider undertaking. He is in all likelihood simply making a rough calculation based on very high warp speed, whereas Data is considering a more sustainable high warp factor.

It should also be remembered that in no way should “Q Who” be construed to establish a sustained nominal cruise of the Enterprise-D of 2,700c – it must be remembered that this is an upper limit. The Enterprise-D was hurled 7,000LY from somewhere within Federation territory. Data is not considering how long it would take to return to their point of origin, he is considering how long it will take to return to the nearest starbase.

In TNG “The Enemy” we learn that:-

(a) A Romulan Warbird commanded by Commander Tomalak – stated to be just entering the neutral zone – communicates that it will arrive at Galrondon Core in six hours.

(b) We subsequently learn that Galordon Core is “nearly half a light year” into Federation territory.

(c) It will take Tomalak five hours to reach the Federation side/ border of the neutral zone.

We can therefore ascertain that the Romulan Warbird can cover “nearly” 0.5LY in one hour, for a velocity of roughly ~4400c. Given the nature of its mission and that it is in violation of treaty, we can be certain that the Warbird is traveling at its maximum sustainable warp speed. It is unknown how long they can maintain this speed.

In TNG “The Price”, we learn from Picard that it would take “a century” at “warp 9” to travel approximately 70,000LY to the Gamma Quadrant, or approximately ~ 700c.

In TNG “The Most Toys”, Wesley Crusher advises that the starship Jovis has a maximum speed of “warp three”, and so could only have covered .102LY in the 23 hours its been gone. Warp 3 can therefore be defined as 39c.

TNG “Best of Both Worlds” is a very illustrative example of the range of TNG era speeds, and it’ll be referred to later as well in relation to other aspects of argument. Picard indicates that the fact that the Borg are now approaching the Federation - when the first encounter was 7,000LY - away means that “they have a source of power far superior to our own”.

It doesn’t get much more explicit than this – traveling 7,000LY in over one year is beyond the ability of the Federation’s power systems to provide. No ifs, ands or buts, period.

In TNG “Clues”, Riker is in awe when a wormhole allows the Enterprise to travel 0.45 parsecs – “almost a day’s travel … in just thirty seconds.”

This gives us an undefined normal cruising speed of just 650c (less than Warp 9).

In TNG “Interface”, Picard notes that the Hera’s last reported location was “over 300 light years” from where they find it, and asks after only four days, “how could it have ended up here”.

In other words, it is inconceivable to him for a ship to travel 300LY in four days. Since that would necessitate a speed of ~27,000c, this isn’t exactly surprising.

In TNG “Bloodlines”, Riker indicates it will take 20 minutes at “warp 9” to travel “300 billion km”. That is an average velocity of ~830c.

Deep Space 9

In DS9 “Battle Lines”, Commander Sisko indicates that the Gamma Quadrant is 70,000LY from Bajor, and it would take their “fastest starship over sixty seven years” to get there.

In other words, the speed of their “fastest starship” over such a distance is only ~1,000c.

Voyager

In VOY “Caretaker”, Captain Janeway notes that “even at maximum speeds, it would take seventy five years to reach the Federation” – a distance stated to be 75,000LY. Again – an average velocity of 1,000c.

In VOY “The 37s”, Paris indicates that Warp 9.9 is “four billion miles a second”. That’s 21,000c, and the highest explicit figure ever given in the TNG era.

In VOY “Hope and Fear”. We learn that it takes Voyager “two days” at “high warp” to travel a distance of 15LY. That’s a speed of 2,700c. Nothing special at all.

In VOY “Scorpion Part II”, a distance of 40LY is “even at maximum warp”, a five day journey. Average velocity is 3,000c.

In VOY “Unimatrix Zero” we learn that it takes the Voyager two hours to travel approximately two light years, for an average velocity of ~8,700c.

Conclusion from the explicit evidence

Observed warp speed ranges from Warp 3 – or about 39c, to an absolute maximum of Warp 9.9, or about ~21,000c, with considerable variation in the capability of ‘maximum warp’ within that range.

Whilst there are some minor inconsistencies in speed, none of it is fatal to the general order of magnitude of speed presented.

An important caveat is that Warp 9.9 is quite beyond the capability of even advanced Federation starships. In TNG “Encounter at Farpoint” we learn that even Warp 9.3 takes the Enterprise “beyond the red line” (i.e. design limits).

The implicit so-called “evidence” about speed – The Chase, The Center of the Galaxy, Charting the galaxy, Appeals to Stardates, and claims about the conduct of the Dominion War

The Chase

Some appeal to this scene from “The Chase” as being proof of extremely high warp speeds:-

http://www.youtube.com/user/SilverDoe6# ... LMw3u9iRI0

Time index 2:34.

In this scene, a Professor Galen traces his finger around large swathes of a map of what is assumed to be the galaxy, indicating the intended plan for an archaeological expedition to be taken via his shuttle – with the aid of various unremarkable transports.

Assuming the map of the galaxy is to scale, Galen intends to travel around 30,000LY during his expedition. Galen is killed, and Picard diverts the Enterprise to follow his work at warp 7. The trips are made in the space of an episode, and Picard dismisses the diversion as a delay of only ‘a few days’.

What’s the problem here? This results in speeds far in excess of 1,000,000c.

Are we to assume that every character who gives speeds far, far, far lower than this is just ignorant? All for Galen tracing his finger around a map?

No. The obvious solution to this problem is to merely conclude that the map is not to scale. This should be self-evident from common sense. Given the typical warp speeds we see on the show, it would be entirely impossible to plonk one’s finger on a map of the entire galaxy and somehow indicate your path through star systems for a circuitous trip planned to take a year. Your finger would barely move.

This is supported by the orange bordered boxes that litter the map, and which Galen traces his finger between – what purpose do they serve? I submit that these are blown up sections of a single small region of space, which allow Galen to indicate with clarity his intended flight plan over a much less ambitious region of space.

This rationalization is the best solution. Assuming the map is to scale is simply a ridiculous notion that flies in the face of all the explicit evidence and makes no sense in context with the rest of the show.

To the Center of the Galaxy!

The next attempt to argue for far higher speeds than those most often explicitly indicated comes from the abominable crime against continuity and good taste, Star Trek V: The Final Frontier. Famous for being a Shatner ego project where he was determined to have the Enteprise actually fly to the centre of the universe and find God, it was scaled back so that the Enterprise-A flies from Nimbus III to the center of the galaxy in 6.7 hours, at warp 7 – a speed anywhere between 20 and 40 million c.

This, too, is unworkable and wholly inconsistent with the majority of the evidence, especially in terms of the TNG era. Which is demonstrated below:-

In fact, TNG “The Nth Degree” implicitly rejects the above as being normally possible.

In this episode, Barclay has his intellect enhanced by extremely advanced aliens, for the purpose of bringing the Enterprise-D to the center of the galaxy for an information exchange. Quotes follow:-

Barclay: We have always perceived the maximum speed of the Enterprise as a function of warp... but I know now there are no limits...

We will explore new worlds that we could never before have reached in our lifetime. I will take us to them...

Worf: Captain! I am picking up a subspace distortion.

Picard: Mister Data?

Data: This disturbance is the result of a highly charged graviton field emanating from our warp nacelles. It is creating a severe bias in the subspace continuum.

Picard: Lieutenant Barclay, are you responsible for this graviton field disturbance?

Barclay: Yessir, I'm altering subspace in a way that's never been conceived of before. I'm fairly certain it will allow us to travel half-way across the galaxy in a matter of only...

[later]

Riker: Where are we, Ensign?

Ensign Anaya: Unless something is wrong with the sensors... We're almost thirty thousand light years from where we were.

It doesn’t get much clearer than that. How could the capability to travel to the center of the galaxy from Star Trek V possibly be consistent with the above exchange? There is a glaring contradiction here, and in my opinion it is clearly Star Trek V that should fall.

Short of rightfully tossing it on the trash heap of continuity along with the movie’s other rank absurdities (like the Enterprise-A having 100 decks, or the Captain’s log being a physical object that sucks so hard it actually has a “system failure” indicator that’s permanent, photon torpedoes with the yield of a light mortar shell) – a solution that is IMO quite justified - an obvious solution is that the center of the galaxy that the Enterprise-A traveled to in Star Trek V is merely a turn of phrase, and not literal.

There’s support for this from common sense – the “God of Sha Ka Ree” claims that it has been imprisoned on the planet for “an eternity”. And yet, we know what the center of our galaxy looks like, and have for some time. There isn’t any ‘great barrier’ there like we saw in the film there, and certainly hasn’t been for an eternity.

Note: Mith previously referred to the TOS episode “By Any Other Name” as another incident of Kirk going to the centre of the galaxy. He is mistaken. The barrier in that episode is the galactic barrier at the rim of the galaxy. Two entirely different things.

Charting the galaxy

An appeal has also been made to two different quotes in Season 1 and Season 2 of TNG to try and support high warp speeds (how, I’m unsure …)

In “Where No One Has Gone Before”, it is stated by Kosinski that in 300 years, Starfleet has only charted 11% of the galaxy.

In “The Dauphin”, Wesley says that they’ve carted 19% of the galaxy.

Clearly, the obvious conclusion here is that Wesley – aka a boy sweet talking a girl, is simply talking out of his arse. If we are to take him at his word, then the Federation could’ve finished charting the galaxy by the time of Star Trek Nemesis. Think about it – 8% of the galaxy every year – an area as large as the UFP itself, per year?

Seriously, a better solution than simply dismissing Wesley as an idiot is that they have different ideas of what ‘charted’ means, or that Wesley merely misspoke.

There’s also the very tenuous idea that charting the galaxy requires spacecraft traveling at warp speeds. You could do the same with probes, observation via fixed sensors (like the Argolis array), whatever.

This argument therefore isn’t very convincing.

Stardate Four Two Five One Nine Point Three Carry The Two Squared

TNG “First Contact” is appealed to as evidence of implied high warp speeds by trying to place it chronologically within the confines of Season 4. In the episode, the Enterprise-D is stated to be 2,000LY from Earth, and that the UFP has been spying on the relevant planet’s civilization for some time, with Riker being undercover there, masquerading as an alien, it is claimed that a lower limit speed can be inferred by assuming that from the start of the season (where the Enterprise was at Earth) to the stardate of the following episode, at most it would’ve taken 224 days to travel 2,000LY. I haven’t reproduced Mith’s calculations here, I assume he shall repeat them.

The average velocity of such a trip is some ~3,600c. This isn’t at all impressive or out of whack with what the majority of the evidence shows.

In any event, the argument’s highly dubious. The episode itself has no stardate appended to it, and there is therefore no reason to assume that it must’ve taken place before Galaxy’s Child. It could’ve happened anytime.

The Dominion War

It has been claimed that if the UFP and Dominion are only capable of traveling 1,000LY in 365 days, then the Dominion War could not have occurred as described. I have no idea if Mith wishes to repeat this argument, but in any event, the reader should have satisfied themselves that it is not, and never has been, my argument that warships can travel no more than 1,000LY in 365 days.

In any event, if Mith wishes to point to how the Dominion War was fought as evidence for high warp speeds, then he should present maps of the relative front lines, targets struck (and the time it took to strike them) etc, for examination. None, as far as I know, even exist.

This line of argument must fail for complete lack of any relevant evidence. We have no idea what the territory of any major Alpha Quadrant power looks like, where their priority targets fall in relation to the enemy, or anything of the sort.


Trying to keep the obvious outlier speeds –navigational data and known Federation territory, and why that’s all wrong

An attempt was previously made to rationalize the higher warp speeds – like the absurd outliers from interpretations of map tracing on the Chase - as being ‘greatly dependent on knowledge of the area’, with quotes from VOY to try and establish this. Relying on ‘knowledge of the area’ making warp speed faster is simply a fundamental misunderstanding of what is being said:-

JANEWAY: Ensign Kim and Seven of Nine have merged Starfleet and Borg ingenuity to create this new technology, and I'm sure I speak for the entire crew when I say, thank you. Now, how the hell does it work?
SEVEN: Astrometric sensors measure the radiative flux of up to three billion stars simultaneously. The computer then calculates our position relative to the centre of the galaxy.
KIM: This mapping technology is ten times more accurate than what we've been using. Seven, will you do the honours? We've plotted a new course home.
SEVEN: By my estimates this trajectory will eliminate five years from your journey.

That’s not ‘knowledge of the area makes warp drive faster’. That’s ‘better maps mean we waste less time by taking a more efficient route’ – it’s a new trajectory where they’re traveling a shorter distance, not the same path they were taking, made magically faster. This is not evidence in any way.

Q: Oh, before I leave. (gives her a PADD) I did a little homework for you. Consider it a thank you for everything you did for Junior.
JANEWAY: Not that I don't appreciate it, but this will only take a few years off our journey. Why not send us all the way?
Q: What sort of an example would I be setting for my son if I did all the work for you?

There’s no reason to believe this is any different.

I could really leave this line of attack there, but it can be more comprehensively debunked.

Refer again to “Best of Both Worlds” above and the limits of Federation power systems. Picard makes no allowance for ‘knowledge of the area’.

Also in relation to “Best of Both Worlds”, consider the fact that only 39 Federation ships made it to Wolf 359 in time to try and stop the Borg cube. Given this is within Federation territory, shouldn’t at least some have gotten there in plenty of time? What about the Klingons, who agreed to send warships? They never arrived either. Don’t they have knowledge of their own territory?

In “Second Chances”, Lt. Riker notes it’ll take ‘four months’ just to get to a ship on a terraforming mission in the Lagana Sector. Are we to assume the Federation is in the habit of terraforming planets far, far, far outside of its 8,000LY territory (i.e. the kinds of speeds “the Chase” would result in)?

This is really just a small sample of the instances of weeks/months of travel within Federation territory we see in TNG.

Addendum – the Star Trek Way of War

An important thing all debaters should remember when engaged in a discussion about what a Star Trek power would do in war time is to consider the conduct of the Dominion War.

First consider the purpose of the Neutral Zone – the ‘no man’s land’ of space between the UFP and the RSE (Romulan Star Empire).

Refer above to the quote from “The Enemy”. The neutral zone is 2.5LY wide.

In “The Defector” we are shown the following exchange:-

SETAL: The humiliating defeat at the Battle of Cheron has not been forgotten. The new leaders have vowed to discard the treaty and claim the Neutral Zone. Nelvana Three is only the first step.

RIKER: And you're saying a whole base is already established there... ?

...

SETAL: In two days, you will have a fleet of Romulan warbirds... within striking distance of fifteen Federation sectors...

In sum, the presence of a Romulan base in the neutral zone - illegally - puts a fleet of Romulan Warbirds within 'striking distance' of 15 Federation sectors. The implications are clear - without the base, said ships are not within striking distance. This is the first evidence for the ‘planet hopping’ strategy in Trek – fleets cannot strike targets without possessing a ‘jumping off point’ from which to strike, sufficiently close to the ultimate target.

This is one of the reasons for the neutral zone – but a no man’s land between the enemy so that any attack is hindered from lack of bases.

We will see below that this is due to reasons of logistics.

From DS9 “In the Pale Moonlight” we get:-

KIRA'S COM VOICE
We just received a priority-one
communication from Starfleet
Command.
(beat)
The Dominion has invaded Betazed.

As he flings off the covers...


INT. OPS

Sisko, Kira, Worf and Dax are gathered around the Ops
table, which has a MAP of the Federation and the
Dominion. A large ARROW is thrusting into the heart
of the Federation.

SISKO
From the initial reports, it seems
that the invasion force must have
come from somewhere in the
Calandra Sector.

DAX
Did Starfleet Intelligence know
anything about a buildup in that
Sector?

WORF
No. They believed Calandra was
too far from Dominion supply lines
to be a threat.

SISKO
There's plenty of blame to go
around. The Tenth Fleet was
supposed to be protecting Betazed
and its outlying colonies, but
they were caught out of position
on a training exercise. What's
worse, Betazed's own defense
systems are obsolete and
undermanned.
(beat)
The planet was theirs in less than
ten hours.

A grim, quiet beat.

KIRA
With Betazed in the hands of the
Jem'Hadar, the Dominion's in a
position to threaten Vulcan...
Andor... Tellar... Alpha
Centauri..

Note what we learn from this. Starfleet made a mistake, believing that Dominion forces in the Calandra Sector were too far from Dominion supply lines to be a threat to Betazed. Whilst Starfleet underestimated the Dominion’s logistical reach, the principle is well illustrated – distance and supply rules warfare in the Dominion War, just like anywhere else.

The Dominion then possesses Betazed – and is now in a position to threaten more critical Federation holdings.

“The Reckoning” expands on this reversal for the Federation:-

SISKO
(indicating the star
map)
-- the Dominion has solidified its
hold on the Kalandra Sector.
They're trying to establish a
supply line running through
Betazoid space into the Argolis
Cluster.

WORF
If they succeed, they would be
able to launch an attack on
Vulcan.

In order to threaten the Federation holdings referred to above, the Dominion must establish a supply line from the Kalandara Sector to newly captured Betazed.

In “Tears of the Prophets” we see this exchange:-

WORF
What about the Torg'Q system?
Of all the targets along the
border, it's the closest to
Cardassia Prime.

...

GARAK
I recommend the Ventani System.
I know it's a long way from
Cardassia Prime, but its second
planet was the birthplace of
Tret Akleen -- the father of the
Cardassian Empire.

Proximity to the capital of the enemy is considered a prime strategic consideration.

Or “Profit and Lace”, where Kira indicates it would be impossible for the Dominion to invade Ferenginar without taking other planets first:-

KIRA
(to Quark and Rom)
How could the Dominion invade
Ferenginar without first
conquering the systems surrounding
it like Clarus and Irtok?

“Valiant” indicates similar limitations on the offensive capabilities of warships:-

WATTERS
But that ship out there is a
direct threat to every Federation
outpost and colony within fifty
light years.
(beat)
That ship... must be destroyed.

...
JAKE
Nog, listen to me. We're in way
over our heads here. Someone told
me that ship out there is twice
the size of a Galaxy-class
starship and three times as strong.

The largest ship in the Dominion fleet (and ergo, the one which should have the most endurance and the highest combat capability) as a threat zone of only 50LY. Outside of that range, given all the evidence, it is reasonable to assume it requires new supply lines.

Most importantly, in “Sacrifice of Angels”, we learn that by an unknown point in the trip of the fleet from Starbase 375 to DS9 – i.e. Operation Return – 11 ships out of the fleet of 627 had to drop out of formation due to technical difficulty. This is analogous to real life ground offensives – you may start off with a full tank battalion, but vehicles will break down and drop out of the offensive the further you go. It’s just a fact.

It should be clear from the above evidence that the UFP has absolutely no capability to conduct offensive operations over transgalactic distances – even warfare over the short distances seen in the Dominion War (i.e. a few thousand light years at most) requires the construction of supply lines between existing territory and newly captured territory, to support the continuation of the offensive towards the ultimate target.

Of course, this should have already been clear – to assume that a power which spans a mere 8,000LY and whose enemies are all close neighbours and fights that way could possibly have the logistical capability to conduct offensives over transgalactic distances without establishing lines of supply is simply ridiculous, but it’s nice to see that the evidence in the show bears it out and that the writers thought of logistics whilst writing the war.

Some might respond that Voyager’s trip somehow refutes this (as if the Dominion War was fought that way for shits and giggles), but that’s simply rubbish. Just because you can travel over long distances in a single ship (at ~1,000c) with effort and improvisation doesn’t somehow mean you can conduct a military offensive. Fleets require maintenance, supplies, ammunition etc, as do the armies which those fleets transport to take and hold territory.

If a Federation fleet formed up to hit a target 10,000LY away with no stops, the fleet that would end up arriving would be a fraction of the size, if they ever arrive at all, and they’d have no capability to keep whatever troops they bring with them provisioned and combat capable.

[IvanTih]

By the way I see that you mention Mith,is that Mith from SpaceBattles?
And good essay you remind of L-W(guy from Factpile).

[Vympel]

By the way I see that you mention Mith,is that Mith from SpaceBattles?
And good essay you remind of L-W(guy from Factpile).

Yeah, that's who I originally wrote it to respond to. I don't remember why, but I never ended up using it. I think the discussion died.

[IvanTih]

I think that Hellblade(guy from the link that I posted) is Mith or Zinc from Space Battles.