Gahhh!!! Frustration with debating with some Trekkies

[Socar15]

Actually, if I'm not mistaken Data was cut off right as he said "per..." and never had a chance to utter the "seconds" part (right as the warp core started going nuts).

[Azron_Stoma]

Pretty much, and that mistake brings the entire figure into question, even if we ignore all the contradictory evidence in other sources.

[Sela]

Batman hit the nail on the head earlier - its not what he says, it's what happens.

If Riker said "Lasers won't even penetrate our hull.", but then shortly thereafter a borg cutting-laser penetrates the hull. . . who you gonna believe?

We've seen SEVERAL times what the full power of the warp-core is capable of. We've seen them use it against the borg cube, we've seen them trying to push asteroids, and we've seen them using phasers and photon torpedoes aplenty. Those are all much better evidence than this quote.

Even if data had actually given a real number with real units.


And while we're calling into question Data's infallibility, let's not forget that he once called an amphibian a fish.

[Picard]

Pretty much, and that mistake brings the entire figure into question, even if we ignore all the contradictory evidence in other sources.

"Seconds" figure is in script.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Surely the script is trumped by what we see and heard on screen?

Unless you want to argue "writer's intent" which makes it worse as the writer clearly knew jack all about science and probably had a "I wonder why" book for reference

[Serafina]

Pretty much, and that mistake brings the entire figure into question, even if we ignore all the contradictory evidence in other sources.

"Seconds" figure is in script.

And it doesn't make sense. Unless you want to believe that the power is wildly fluctuating all the time for no reason. And as i said before, Data is an idiot who can't calculate the surface of a sphere and who can't differentiate between fish and amphibians. Taking his word above visual evidence is utterly pointless and nonsensical - just as nonsensical as nearly all other stated figures. Come one, we have the Enterprise being seriously damaged by megajoule-weapons if we believe their dialogue. WE have Date stating a lot of other nonsensical crap, such as measuring force in tons per metre.

Surely the script is trumped by what we see and heard on screen?

Unless you want to argue "writer's intent" which makes it worse as the writer clearly knew jack all about science and probably had a "I wonder why" book for reference

Nah, that actually makes sense in that case. The script still has some canonicity IIRC, and it just tells us what he would have said us - it doesn't actually contradict the episode.
Of course, what he said doesn't make sense, but the method for figuring out what he said does.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Surely the script is trumped by what we see and heard on screen?

Unless you want to argue "writer's intent" which makes it worse as the writer clearly knew jack all about science and probably had a "I wonder why" book for reference

Nah, that actually makes sense in that case. The script still has some canonicity IIRC, and it just tells us what he would have said us - it doesn't actually contradict the episode.
Of course, what he said doesn't make sense, but the method for figuring out what he said does.

Fair enough. I wasn't saying it contradicted it, I was just going by dialogue which we hear rather than what was supposed to have been said. And like I said, arguing writers intent doesnt help in this case either beause the writer doesn't know beans if he can't get units right

[Xess]

Wouldn't Data's quote make more sense if it was going to be something like "12.75 GW per gram of fuel" or something like that? Gigawatts per second makes no sense physically but having a power generated per fuel used or reactor volume makes perfect sense.

[Batman]

Per reactor volume would make pretty little sense. Regardless of the size of your Warp core M/AM can't give you more than 9E16J/kg.
Power per fuel unit also doesn't make sense. Fuel usage per time unit (and reaction efficiency) determine power. 1kg of fuel can give you anything from 0.00.....1mW to nine quadrillion yottawatts depending on how quickly or slowly it is used up.

[seanrobertson]

Per reactor volume would make pretty little sense. Regardless of the size of your Warp core M/AM can't give you more than 9E16J/kg.
Power per fuel unit also doesn't make sense. Fuel usage per time unit (and reaction efficiency) determine power. 1kg of fuel can give you anything from 0.00.....1mW to nine quadrillion yottawatts depending on how quickly or slowly it is used up.

Something like that.

Data's "we are currently generating [however many] watts per" could very easily be reconciled with Michael's estimations on max (or near-max) warp core output; i.e., ~30,000 TW per that moon-moving incident (Deja Q, IIRC).

[Batman]

For a very generous definition of 'easily'. 30,000TW means about of a third of a kilogram per second of fuel annihilated (as usual, assuming perfect reactivity and energy collection).
'12.7 billion GW per' would require either a preposterously low amount of time or a preposterously high amount of fuel.
Using 1 kg of fuel, 12.7 billion GW means about 7 milliseconds.
Translating that into 30,000TW would mean a fuel supply sufficient for about a trillionth of a second of continuous operation?
Using 1 second of duration, 12.7 billion GW means 141 kg of fuel.
Either way, it means the Big E would burn up fuel at a prodigious rate sitting in orbit doing nothing.

[SeaTrooper]

For a very generous definition of 'easily'. 30,000TW means about of a third of a kilogram per second of fuel annihilated (as usual, assuming perfect reactivity and energy collection).
'12.7 billion GW per' would require either a preposterously low amount of time or a preposterously high amount of fuel.
Using 1 kg of fuel, 12.7 billion GW means about 7 milliseconds.
Translating that into 30,000TW would mean a fuel supply sufficient for about a trillionth of a second of continuous operation?
Using 1 second of duration, 12.7 billion GW means 141 kg of fuel.
Either way, it means the Big E would burn up fuel at a prodigious rate sitting in orbit doing nothing.

And producing heat that apparently goes ... nowhere?

Do we have any canon reference to exactly how much AM they carry? I'm not talking about the speculative TNG TM here, but a reference that truly is canon.

[Serafina]

And as i said before, Data is an idiot who can't calculate the surface of a sphere

I debunked this bullshit a week or two ago in the HoS thread (his numbers were accurate to the given precision). Why are you repeating it again?

You'd all have a lot fewer headaches if you just stuck to the strong arguments and used legitimate logic.

Yes, you said this:

Wow, fucking wow.

People use "Capable of vaporizing a small town" and the wankers jump all over us for saying NO IT IS A LOWER LIMIT BY DEFINITION. Data says "over 10^16", which 10^17 is btw, and you idiots call him an idiot for it.

btw, have you possibly considered that it is YOU who are in error instead of the writer/character? He estimated 200 million km in diameter. If it was actually > 150 million in diameter, it'd round to the same 200 million he reported (people round estimations to few sig figs. Foreign concept to you all, I know) yet fall in over 1e16 and under 10^17 km^2 surface area.

So those statements make perfect fucking sense and show an attention to detail on Data/the writer's part in humility and scientific accuracy - character growth from his pedantic annoying ass in season 1.

But nooo, seeing this would require you to actually think instead of just parroting Mike Wong!

So in other words:
"Handwave, he was just estimating". Great - so the ONE THING Data is supposedly very good at by his very nature (math), and he doesn't even use it properly. For fucks sake, who the hell rounds from 150 to 200? Who the hell says "over 100" when he actually means "1000" (which is what you claim he did effectively)?
IF Data was actually great at math AND had reliable knowledge (which he regularly fails to demonstrate), he could have done a precise calculation just as easily - to within the error of measurement, of course. But then you have to conclude that the Enterprises sensors are fucked up and can't measure exactly to within a few ten thousand kilometers, which isn't that much better.

So, if you claim that Data was just that inaccurate because he wanted to be accurate to "the given precision", then that lack of precision has to come from somewhere. Either the Enterprises sensors are really, really bad - or Data itself lacks that precision and is no better at math than any ordinary human.

[Picard]

Wouldn't Data's quote make more sense if it was going to be something like "12.75 GW per gram of fuel" or something like that? Gigawatts per second makes no sense physically but having a power generated per fuel used or reactor volume makes perfect sense.

It would. But from script it seems that intention was simply 12.75 billion GW. Here is what I got from Answers.com:

"There isn't a unit for this. It represents a rate of increase of Power. It is frequently used, however, in the Press, when they should use Watts."

Seems scriptwriters forgot to consult whatever scientists they had working as advisors about this one.

Great - so the ONE THING Data is supposedly very good at by his very nature (math), and he doesn't even use it properly.

He is trying to be "more human".

Either the Enterprises sensors are really, really bad - or Data itself lacks that precision and is no better at math than any ordinary human.

Or he chooses[/quote] not to be.

[Serafina]

He is trying to be "more human".

Ah, gotcha - so is not stupid, he is only deliberately acting stupid-

Or he chooses not to be.

Ah, so he chooses to screw up at his job. Given that Picard is his captain, he will probably congratulate him on that - after all, self-fulfillment is far more important than doing his actual job!

At least Destructionator XIII is making a reasoned argument. I still do not see how they can have such a large inaccuracy that he can justify an OOM-error. After all, if his measurment of 100km radius is wrong, he doesn't know how wrong - he still takes it and fucks up the operation. I am 1.70m and if i weight myself and get my weight at 70 kg - that measurement would be wrong and likely due to inaccurate instruments or other errors. But if i then calculate my BMI and get 30, i fucked up the math (24 would be correct given that weight). It doesn't matter whether the measurement was right or wrong, i still put 70 into the calculation and then fucked up that calculation. It's no longer only an error of the sensors, but also MY error.
That's, as far as i can see, what Data did - his instruments told him "somewhere around 100km radius, give or take some", and he then took that number and made a calculation - which he fucked up.
Rounding up would be something like taking 70kg instead of 68 or 71, or using 24 instead of 24.221. But that's not the case here, it's just fucked up math.

You, Picard, do not even try to make a reasoned argument. I was wrong, Destructionator XIII might be trying to explain away that which he does not like, but at least he is using logic and science. You, however, are just an utter fucktard who really can do nothing but wave his hand (obviously rapidly in his nether regions).

[Serafina]

Well, that settles that then.
Still doesn't change the fact that Data is not infallible.

[Serafina]

I just watched the scene, and contrary to what certain analysts claim, the ship was not "doing nothing" at the time - it was at least traveling under impulse power! The per was probably another error, but might have been referring to any number of things (maybe breaking it down to each engine?)

How fast? Or was it actually just orbiting a planet - in which cases the engines don't have to be running at all?
In any case, it was doing nothing that can possibly take up 12.75 billion GW, or even close to that.

Generally, i would NOT rely on any numbers given by any of the characters unless they actually fit with real-world science or episode visuals. We just have way to many blunders and nonsensical stuff in there, for example Enterprise can be damaged by 2 megajoules according to "Conundrum".
It's probably better to establish OOMs for power generation, shield and weapon capabilities using visuals, and just ignore contradicting dialogue. If you want to stay within SOD, it's just an error by the character. Outside of SOD, many of the writers were obviously scientific ignoramuses.
That's certainly better than trying to reconcile the massive differences between dialogue figures and to make sense of the truly nonsensical one, or to let dialogue override visuals.

[SeaTrooper]

So in other words:

DATA
I am having difficulty scanning
the object. However, it would
appear to be approximately two
hundred million kilometers in
diameter.


PICARD
Why didn't we detect it before
now?

DATA
The object's enormous mass is
causing a great deal of
gravimetric interference. That
might have prevented our sensors
from detecting the object before
we dropped out of warp.
[...]
4 EXT. SPACE - ENTERPRISE & SPHERE (OPTICAL)

The ship is nearing the Sphere. At this range, the
monstrous object looks like a giant WALL in space,

I don't know if anyone else caught this, but doesn't this show a failure in warp navigation? When cruising along at multiples of C, isn't being able to detect planets, moons, large rocks, etc., before you hit them a good thing. Yet Data seems to be saying here that the contact was so big and so massive... that sensors couldn't read it at all

[Picard]

I don't know if anyone else caught this, but doesn't this show a failure in warp navigation? When cruising along at multiples of C, isn't being able to detect planets, moons, large rocks, etc., before you hit them a good thing. Yet Data seems to be saying here that the contact was so big and so massive... that sensors couldn't read it at all

Maybe they dropped out of warp doe to inability to maintain warp speed, or maybe due to some automated security system. We don't know. But we do know that Defiant can enter warp inside solar system, right into star, and exit warp less than half of star's diameter.

Generally, i would NOT rely on any numbers given by any of the characters unless they actually fit with real-world science or episode visuals.

It can fit.

for example Enterprise can be damaged by 2 megajoules according to "Conundrum".

No, it wasn't damaged, it wasn't even threatened.

[SeaTrooper]

I don't know if anyone else caught this, but doesn't this show a failure in warp navigation? When cruising along at multiples of C, isn't being able to detect planets, moons, large rocks, etc., before you hit them a good thing. Yet Data seems to be saying here that the contact was so big and so massive... that sensors couldn't read it at all

Maybe they dropped out of warp doe to inability to maintain warp speed, or maybe due to some automated security system. We don't know. But we do know that Defiant can enter warp inside solar system, right into star, and exit warp less than half of star's diameter.

Okay, it was a fairly important ploy device in TOS that you needed some distance from a gravity well before warp was even possible, though they then began promptly contradicting the recommended distances in TNG. Some of the earliest ST novelisations I remember reading stated that going to warp too close to a star risked sending it nova! Can't remember the book's title, but the TOS story when they first attempted Transwarp stated that they blew up at least one star by doing exactly this.

Nonetheless, running into a gravity well deep enough that it forces you to drop out of warp can't be good for your engines. This is something that nav sensors really should be looking out for, even if you don't have to worry about flying through a star or bouncing off a super-nova. Flying in a straight line until some natural obstacle collapses your warp field and dumps you into realspace has to be the clumsiest means of exploration I've ever heard of.

[Picard]

True.

[Picard]

Althought they did perfect warp drive by middle/late DS9.

[Batman]

Um-I'm reasonably certain they routinely Warped out of orbit during TOS. They apparently Warped out of Earth's atmosphere in TVH. They definitely Warped out of orbit in TUC (much as all of us wish that most of that movie never happened). About the only instance of anybody considering going to Warp insystem dangerous that I can remember is Kirk in TMP, and that was with untested new Warp engines.

[SeaTrooper]

Althought they did perfect warp drive by middle/late DS9.

Yes, my impression was that as warp mechanics improved, the displacement from gravity wells could be reduced. This would explain some of the incidents seen in TNG, and even more that kept popping up in VOY. It could even be argued that the whole warp too close to a star and send it nova-problem had been completely solved as a result of many incremental improvements to warp engines over time. Of course, this could also be explained by later writers not even knowing this was possible.

Whoops, sorry there Batman, didn't see your post in time. And, yes, you are correct that they warped out of the atmosphere in TVH. Can't explain that one without throwing rocks at the writers...

[SeaTrooper]

Um-I'm reasonably certain they routinely Warped out of orbit during TOS. They apparently Warped out of Earth's atmosphere in TVH. They definitely Warped out of orbit in TUC (much as all of us wish that most of that movie never happened). About the only instance of anybody considering going to Warp insystem dangerous that I can remember is Kirk in TMP, and that was with untested new Warp engines.

Bugger. Maybe I'm relying too much on novels I haven't re-read for ages, rather than staying with the TV series as I should.