NuBorg v.s Star Wars

[Jake]

I know its Doctor Who. I was just saying that if they could travel through there own time line they would need something similar. I already gave you a trek example, and you gave yourself one with first contact.

[Batman]

No I didn't. FC is perfectly compatible with the branching timeline model and Picard simply not KNOWING he could have simply ignored the Borg going back in time.

[Jake]

That theory relies on Picard's ignorance. The assumption that a starship captain 350 years in the future wouldn't be able to recognize a paradox that two 21st century Joe Schmoes are discussing on a web board is just stupid. As such, if they were simply traveling to an alternate universe, Picard would have realized it and laughed at them. But he doesn't, he goes in and follows them, which infers he has a reason to, aka technology is in existence which negates said paradox.

[Batman]

That theory relies on Picard's ignorance. The assumption that a starship captain 350 years in the future wouldn't be able to recognize a paradox that two 21st century Joe Schmoes are discussing on a web board is just stupid. As such, if they were simply traveling to an alternate universe, Picard would have realized it and laughed at them. But he doesn't, he goes in and follows them, which infers he has a reason to, aka technology is in existence which negates said paradox.

No. THE ENTIRETY OF STAR TREK says Trek time travel works on the branching timeline model. Dr Who technology is IRRELEVANT to this discussion.
And frankly since TNG+ characters are routinely ignorant about concepts well understood in the real world, I find Picard not knowing beans about time travel (which decidedly isn't) perfectly acceptable.

[Jake]

No. THE ENTIRETY OF STAR TREK says Trek time travel works on the branching timeline model.

Same assertion, still no proof.

And frankly since TNG+ characters are routinely ignorant about concepts well understood in the real world, I find Picard not knowing beans about time travel (which decidedly isn't) perfectly acceptable.

Uh, their FIVE YEAR OLDS know calculus. And even if by some random anomaly of fate Picard doesn't think of it at the time, someone in the bridge crew would have reminded him if the parallel universe theory was correct. Or are you going to say that the ENTIRE BRIDGE CREW, including an android science officer, conveniently forgot something that's common knowledge?

[Batman]

You gotta be kidding me. We're talking about a society that can't be arsed to provide their prison cells with actual DOORS, doesn't have computer security PERIOD unless Data juryrigs some encryption code or other, needs to be reminded that chemical reactions can release energies vastly below what even the lowly photorps can generate so they, after Valen knows how long, vent hydrogen into the rift when chances are A SINGLE PHOTON TORPEDO WOULD HAVE DONE THE JOB. Given that Trek personell are routinely ignorant of how real world physics work them not knowing how time travel works is pretty much a given.

[Jake]

You gotta be kidding me. We're talking about a society that can't be arsed to provide their prison cells with actual DOORS, doesn't have computer security PERIOD unless Data juryrigs some encryption code or other, needs to be reminded that chemical reactions can release energies vastly below what even the lowly photorps can generate so they, after Valen knows how long, vent hydrogen into the rift when chances are A SINGLE PHOTON TORPEDO WOULD HAVE DONE THE JOB. Given that Trek personell are routinely ignorant of how real world physics work them not knowing how time travel works is pretty much a given.

Security Cells: The force fields seem to work fine. This is also not restricted to trek.

Computer Security: I remember the borg hacking into trek computers, but they are much more technologically advanced than the feds. The Binar also did it, but by the name I think you would know where I was going with this. Nanites also did it. Getting the idea? Trek computers are not routinely hacked, and when they are it is usually by an expert or a more highly advanced race.

Chemical Rxns/Photon torps: What are you talking about?

Given that Trek personell are routinely ignorant of how real world physics work them not knowing how time travel works is pretty much a given.

Uh, they have ftl, artificial gravity, directed energy weapons, energy shielding, matter replication, teleportation, etc. I think they know a little more about how the universe works than we do.

[Batman]

You gotta be kidding me. We're talking about a society that can't be arsed to provide their prison cells with actual DOORS, doesn't have computer security PERIOD unless Data juryrigs some encryption code or other, needs to be reminded that chemical reactions can release energies vastly below what even the lowly photorps can generate so they, after Valen knows how long, vent hydrogen into the rift when chances are A SINGLE PHOTON TORPEDO WOULD HAVE DONE THE JOB. Given that Trek personell are routinely ignorant of how real world physics work them not knowing how time travel works is pretty much a given.

Security Cells: The force fields seem to work fine. This is also not restricted to trek.

No they don't. They are routinely overcome by means that would be totally stumped by doors.

Computer Security: I remember the borg hacking into trek computers, but they are much more technologically advanced than the feds. The Binar also did it, but by the name I think you would know where I was going with this. Nanites also did it. Getting the idea? Trek computers are not routinely hacked, and when they are it is usually by an expert or a more highly advanced race.

Watch some TNG. Pretty much EVERYBODY can access vital ship functions from pretty much ANY terminal on the ship.

Chemical Rxns/Photon torps: What are you talking about?

Night Terrors. Next.

Given that Trek personell are routinely ignorant of how real world physics work them not knowing how time travel works is pretty much a given.

Uh, they have ftl, artificial gravity, directed energy weapons, energy shielding, matter replication, teleportation, etc. I think they know a little more about how the universe works than we do.

Let's see-crack in the event horizon, WESLEY of all people having to point out that there's only one workable M/AM mixture, Wesley routinely saving the asses of the TNG crew, DATA repeatedly spewing bullshit-um-no. They probably know more than we know today but they most definitely do NOT always know what they're talking about.

[Jake]

No they don't. They are routinely overcome by means that would be totally stumped by doors.
Quote:

Like what?

Watch some TNG. Pretty much EVERYBODY can access vital ship functions from pretty much ANY terminal on the ship.

Show me a scene where someone who could not be considered an expert hacks the enterprise.

Night Terrors. Next.

According to the memory alpha article here:http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Night_Terrors , they were told to use hydrogen.

Let's see-crack in the event horizon, WESLEY of all people having to point out that there's only one workable M/AM mixture, Wesley routinely saving the asses of the TNG crew, DATA repeatedly spewing bullshit-um-no. They probably know more than we know today but they most definitely do NOT always know what they're talking about.

Wesley is a genius. Being wrong once or twice does not mean Data spews bullshit. Everyone makes mistakes, but more often than not they know what they're talking about.

[Serafina]

Oh, for fucks sake - Picard is not ignorant if he does not understand temporal mechanics. He is a starship captain, not a theoretical scientists. Why do Trek-fans always forget that?
Heck, i would not be surprised if the scientists of the Federation (the actual ones, not those half-assed jacks on the starships who don't know what a black hole is) do not understand their universes temporal mechanics. After all - they do not have time travel. We never see time travel using Federation technology, unless you count that slingshot around the sun. Either way, they do not have actual time machines, so it's pretty plausible that they just don't know how time travel actually works.

[Azron_Stoma]

The fact that Bashir thought being his own ancestor was even possible in "Trials and tribbleations" speaks volumes.

Enterprise routinely forgets it's own canon, it's the main reason so many people hated seasons 1-3, until they got a big TOS fan to help do season 4 and things improved, but too little too late.

Abrams Trek supports the many worlds thing, as does the episode "Parallels"

[RowanE]

The reason Picard went back in time to stop the borg, and the reason he knew the timeline wasn't a branching one, was because once the borg sphere went through the time thingy, the entire population of earth was borg.

[Serafina]

It's also perfectly reasonable that time travel comes in different forms - primitive time travel will not allow you to alter your own timeline and you need a paradox-compensator and better precision and whatnot to actually alter the timeline.
The fact remains that we never see a non-god power in ST altering any timelines.

[Jake]

Either way, they do not have actual time machines, so it's pretty plausible that they just don't know how time travel actually works.

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But there have been quite a few parallel universe issues in trek, so there should be a distinction between parallel universe travel and time travel.

The fact that Bashir thought being his own ancestor was even possible in "Trials and tribbleations" speaks volumes.

Wouldn't this support a paradox machine?

Enterprise routinely forgets it's own canon, it's the main reason so many people hated seasons 1-3, until they got a big TOS fan to help do season 4 and things improved, but too little too late.

Whether people dislike it or not doesn't matter. Trek canon is really vague, and there is nothing that says that one TV series trumps another.

Abrams Trek supports the many worlds thing, as does the episode "Parallels"

Yes, but in parallels, at the end, Picard is informed by Worf as to what happened, so Picard obviously knows about parallel universes. If he thought the Borg were doing the same thing in First Contact, he wouldn't have bothered to go after them.

The reason Picard went back in time to stop the borg, and the reason he knew the timeline wasn't a branching one, was because once the borg sphere went through the time thingy, the entire population of earth was borg.

Thanks for the supporting evidence.

It's also perfectly reasonable that time travel comes in different forms - primitive time travel will not allow you to alter your own timeline and you need a paradox-compensator and better precision and whatnot to actually alter the timeline.
The fact remains that we never see a non-god power in ST altering any timelines.

Frankly, there is no real way to verify it one way or the other. We would have to see a person go back in time, then we would have to see that person's original present change. The closest we get is the borg example above.


The reason I am arguing this is because if the borg have legit time travel (non parallel universe) they can use it as a weapon against the empire (because they are defeating the empire that they initially engaged, not some parallel one) and satisfy the OP of the new borg assimilating the wars galaxy.

[Serafina]

But there have been quite a few parallel universe issues in trek, so there should be a distinction between parallel universe travel and time travel.

Why? We never see time travel that changes anything in the original universe/timeline.

Frankly, there is no real way to verify it one way or the other. We would have to see a person go back in time, then we would have to see that person's original present change. The closest we get is the borg example above.

And surprise, surprise - nothing changes in TFC. And nothing changes in STIV, despite them introducing transparent aluminum ahead of it's time.
Again, repeat with me:
Trek never changes the original timeline, ever. Everything we see is easily explicable by traveling to an alternate universe.

[Jake]

Why? We never see time travel that changes anything in the original universe/timeline.

Actually, it does. In enterprise, there is an entire episode about a crashed Borg ship in Antarctica and Archer mentions that Zephram Chochren (probably spelled wrong) mentioned an army of cyborgs who wanted to enslave humanity.

And surprise, surprise - nothing changes in TFC. And nothing changes in STIV, despite them introducing transparent aluminum ahead of it's time.

Yes, things, albeit minor things, do change (see above).

Trek never changes the original timeline, ever. Everything we see is easily explicable by traveling to an alternate universe.

See above.

[Batman]

Why? We never see time travel that changes anything in the original universe/timeline.

Actually, it does. In enterprise, there is an entire episode about a crashed Borg ship in Antarctica and Archer mentions that Zephram Chochren (probably spelled wrong) mentioned an army of cyborgs who wanted to enslave humanity.

And this is evidence of this happening in the original timeline-how, exactly? What with ENT routinely violating canon Trek history as it is? This is FAR easier explained by ENT being yet another branched timeline (probably spawned off First Contact's time travel shenanigans).

And surprise, surprise - nothing changes in TFC. And nothing changes in STIV, despite them introducing transparent aluminum ahead of it's time.

Yes, things, albeit minor things, do change (see above).

Those things being? You blithely ASSUME ENT happens in the original timeline when there's a fuckton of evidence it DIDN'T (like there not being NX-01 in the Big E's ancestor's gallery in TMP despite it going back to sailing age vessels, there being no hand phasers in Pike's time when Archer had them, Archer running into the Ferengi 200 years ahead of time, them running into the Borg (but the reports of that curiously getting lost so Picard and co were clueless when first meeting them)...

Trek never changes the original timeline, ever. Everything we see is easily explicable by traveling to an alternate universe.

See above.

Indeed. There's ZERO evidence of this being the original timeline and PLENTY to show that it's NOT.

[Jake]

I think I'm going to concede this debate. There was a time where I watched Trek everyday and knew almost everything about TNG and Enterprise, but that time was 6 years ago and I really don't think I'm qualified anymore, so I'll just stick with Star Wars vs Halo.