The Federation and the Empire:a possible relationship?

[lord Martiya]

Yeah, like the Romulans would ever show weakness. Knowing them, they'd fake their surrender then try a range of stealth attacks. The Empire promptly uses Romulus and Remus for Death Star target practice.

That's what I meant with their pride. Their hope is that the Empire shows its power against some imbecile clearly enough to shatter their pride. If not... Well, I don't think they'll disintegrate Romulus and Remus, there's the only thing (ale) they could be interested in on those worlds.

[PhilosopherOfSorts]

So a planet with a genuine fossil record showing that humans evolved on it (something that has never been found in the GFFA) isn't worth anything to anybody, but the Romulans are saved by having their own variation on the theme of "lets get drunk?"

I don't think so, the Empire has lots (probably millions) of ways to get drunk. Planets where humans evolved? Not so much.

[The Romulan Republic]

For that matter, why would Romulan Ale be the only worthwhile product to them? Other worlds doubtlessly have unique food and drink.

[Ghost Rider]

I always thinked the only way to the Starfleet wins an engagement against the Imperial Navy, is by the means of some "deus ex-machina" (for example all star destroyers caught in some kind of black hole or Q decided to teleport them to another galaxy in the far corner of Universe... ).

Didn't save their ass against the Borg.

But - i ask you all - isn`t anything than can help to develop some kind of peaceful relationship between the Empire and the Federation?

Not when they can fucking take it without wasting time talking and trying to come to an agreement.

You all think the Empire (for boredom, pure malice or whatsoever) only wipe out the Federation and doesnt give a any atention to what the Federation can offer in a fair trade?

Why wipe out when you can sit an ISD and tell them "We rule you. Disobey and a planet returns to the primoridal ooze.".

Hmmm... Im pretty sure that wine, cheese and escargots would be quite welcomed by the gourmets in the Star Wars Galaxy!

Again, take.

Maybe there are a chance - after the Emperor eats a slice of camembert - to say: "they (Federation) aren´t completly useless; maybe we can trade this for something else...".

If he likes it and these backwater hicks make it, he takes it. The Federation has no way of actually enforcing anything of their bargain. If the Empire goes "You will give it to us." what is the Feds going to say? No? Wow, and look another planet is gone the way of the dodo.

[lord Martiya]

So a planet with a genuine fossil record showing that humans evolved on it (something that has never been found in the GFFA) isn't worth anything to anybody, but the Romulans are saved by having their own variation on the theme of "lets get drunk?"

I don't think so, the Empire has lots (probably millions) of ways to get drunk. Planets where humans evolved? Not so much.

For that matter, why would Romulan Ale be the only worthwhile product to them? Other worlds doubtlessly have unique food and drink.

OK, I'll explain myself better: Milky Way is so less advanced that an alcoholic so powerful to kill in a couple drinks is the only thing we could trade to them, and the Romulans would need to have their damned pride shattered before surviving. But I have to concede two points: I had completely forgot of the whole human evolution thing, and Saurian Brandy seems to be a Federation counterpart to Romulan Ale.

[bz249]

According to one anecdote when Hungary seemed to be a less than motivated ally to Germany in WWII a German politician asked a question to General von Brauchitsch:
- How long would it take to occupy Hungary.
- 24 hours.
- And if they resist?
- Then 12 hours!
- How?
- Then we don't have to make speeches.

While Nazi Generals were quite arrogant it describes the situation of the Empire and the Fedaration quite well. Going through all the points of the treaty is way more complicated than simply conquer it and the Empire has a certain tendency to choose the simple solution with guns instead of the complex diplomatic actions.

[The Romulan Republic]

According to one anecdote when Hungary seemed to be a less than motivated ally to Germany in WWII a German politician asked a question to General von Brauchitsch:
- How long would it take to occupy Hungary.
- 24 hours.
- And if they resist?
- Then 12 hours!
- How?
- Then we don't have to make speeches.

While Nazi Generals were quite arrogant it describes the situation of the Empire and the Fedaration quite well. Going through all the points of the treaty is way more complicated than simply conquer it and the Empire has a certain tendency to choose the simple solution with guns instead of the complex diplomatic actions.

The problem is, unless they're willing to fry a world from orbit at the slightest sign of trouble (which is rather counter-productive if there is something that you want on it), they'll have to garrison their territory. Which means patrol ships and infantry garrisons (who would be vulnerable to terrorist/insurgent attacks).

I've said it before and I'll say it again: just because the Empire can invade with a single ship does not mean they can garrison with a single ship.

In the end, it likely comes down in part to who's in command (on the respective sides). If the Federation leadership at the time is full of political opportunists without a lot of scruples (or cowards who fold at the threat of Force) and the Imperial forces are headed up by, say, Thrawn, I could see a diplomatic solution. If the Federation is headed by a stubborn idealist like Picard or Kirk, and the Imperial forces are under the command of a nut like Tarkin, it'll likely play out as you suggest.

The time period likely counts too. Is this Thrawn or Pellaeon's Empire, strapped for resources and perhaps not as tyranical/bloodthirsty, or Palpatine's at the height of its genocidal power?

[Ghost Rider]

I have to ask anyone who considers negotiation, why would any power in the SW universe consider it? If it's a criminal empire, they can strong arm anyone. If it's the Empire at the height, they can tell them a single person gets out of line, they will start turning planets into potholes(no need for BDZ when you can destroy every major city and turn a planet back to the Dark Ages). If the Empire at the lowest, take and if they get out of line demonstrate what happens to idiots. If the Alliance, take and do the same.

Unless you specifically hinder the SW side, there is nothing the Federation can do that won't involve becoming at best a vassal state in service of a power so much more powerful that they have no hope of denying them anything. At worst, they get raped of resources and said power moves on to do what they will.

[The Romulan Republic]

I have to ask anyone who considers negotiation, why would any power in the SW universe consider it? If it's a criminal empire, they can strong arm anyone. If it's the Empire at the height, they can tell them a single person gets out of line, they will start turning planets into potholes(no need for BDZ when you can destroy every major city and turn a planet back to the Dark Ages). If the Empire at the lowest, take and if they get out of line demonstrate what happens to idiots. If the Alliance, take and do the same.

Oh, come on. The Alliance? Sure, they're technically capable of doing a BDZ, but politically? When has the Alliance or New Republic ever used that kind of strong-arm tactic?

Can you really see Admiral Ackbar flying Home One into orbit and saying "give us all your resources or we'll melt the planet's crust" ever, or at least as anything other than an absolute last resort?

Unless you specifically hinder the SW side, there is nothing the Federation can do that won't involve becoming at best a vassal state in service of a power so much more powerful that they have no hope of denying them anything. At worst, they get raped of resources and said power moves on to do what they will.

The thing is, a vassal state still needs policy forces and border patrols. It still needs administrators, and their staff. Its needs guards to protect said administrators. That's all I'm saying. That it'll cost more to garrison the territory than to capture it.

[Ghost Rider]

I have to ask anyone who considers negotiation, why would any power in the SW universe consider it? If it's a criminal empire, they can strong arm anyone. If it's the Empire at the height, they can tell them a single person gets out of line, they will start turning planets into potholes(no need for BDZ when you can destroy every major city and turn a planet back to the Dark Ages). If the Empire at the lowest, take and if they get out of line demonstrate what happens to idiots. If the Alliance, take and do the same.

Oh, come on. The Alliance? Sure, they're technically capable of doing a BDZ, but politically? When has the Alliance or New Republic ever used that kind of strong-arm tactic?

Can you really see Admiral Ackbar flying Home One into orbit and saying "give us all your resources or we'll melt the planet's crust" ever, or at least as anything other than an absolute last resort?

Given they owe nothing to these people...why would they not simply dictate terms? Again the only reason to invade said ST galaxy is practically for kicks. Because anything else is going to take an immense amount of time to start up and upgrade to any standard they are used to.

Unless you specifically hinder the SW side, there is nothing the Federation can do that won't involve becoming at best a vassal state in service of a power so much more powerful that they have no hope of denying them anything. At worst, they get raped of resources and said power moves on to do what they will.

The thing is, a vassal state still needs policy forces and border patrols. It still needs administrators, and their staff. Its needs guards to protect said administrators. That's all I'm saying. That it'll cost more to garrison the territory than to capture it.

Then they set very tiny garrisons and rule by the thought that adminstrator 1041 doesn't report in every 12 hours to said commander in person, a city goes the way of the dodo. That's the difference of power. They can make whatever rules and tell said people you don't like it, tough.

[Batman]

The problem is, unless they're willing to fry a world from orbit at the slightest sign of trouble (which is rather counter-productive if there is something that you want on it), they'll have to garrison their territory. Which means patrol ships and infantry garrisons (who would be vulnerable to terrorist/insurgent attacks).

We already KNOW the Empire is willing to fry a world from orbit and once that happened a time or two, so will the Alpha Quadrant races.
And it WILL happen if the AQ resists because while they may have stuff the Empire is INTERESTED in, it doesn't have anything the Empire actually NEEDS.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: just because the Empire can invade with a single ship does not mean they can garrison with a single ship.

They don't NEED to. All they have to do is show they CAN smash any fleet, planet, or anything else the AQ wants to bring to the fight execution, mostly with a single ship, and not a particularly big one by Wars standards.

In the end, it likely comes down in part to who's in command (on the respective sides). If the Federation leadership at the time is full of political opportunists without a lot of scruples (or cowards who fold at the threat of Force)

Folding in the face of a force YOU CAN'T IN YOUR WILDEST DREAMS HOPE TO MATCH isn't cowardice. It's common sense.

and the Imperial forces are headed up by, say, Thrawn, I could see a diplomatic solution. If the Federation is headed by a stubborn idealist like Picard or Kirk, and the Imperial forces are under the command of a nut like Tarkin, it'll likely play out as you suggest.

There will be a diplomatic solution either way. The Imperials will say 'We want X' and either the AQ agrees immediately OR the AQ agrees after several planets have been torched because they initially DIDN'T agree due to idealists like Kirk and Picard dreaming they actually can fight back only to be taken out of the picture once it becomes painfully obvious they CAN'T.

[The Romulan Republic]

Given they owe nothing to these people...why would they not simply dictate terms? Again the only reason to invade said ST galaxy is practically for kicks.

One tiny example from anywhere in canon of the Alliance behaving in such a manner. That's all I ask.

Because anything else is going to take an immense amount of time to start up and upgrade to any standard they are used to.

Again, their are a very few limited resources they might trade.

Resources. Yes, they could just take them. Weather they would give something in return is entirely a matter of politics. The Empire likely wouldn't, the Rebels might.

Certain rare/unique foods and beverages. Already discussed throughly.

Then they set very tiny garrisons and rule by the thought that adminstrator 1041 doesn't report in every 12 hours to said commander in person, a city goes the way of the dodo. That's the difference of power. They can make whatever rules and tell said people you don't like it, tough.

Let's say they've got a nice, loyal puppet government set up. Everything's running smoothly. And then, oh look, some terrorists just blew up our Romulan Ale distillery.

What do you do? Nuke the whole planet? That might be Tarkin's choice (though its a bit on the insane side even for him), but its not very rational. Or do you use a more proportionate response? Anyone on the sanity scale from Thrawn up would probably choose the latter.

What it comes down to is this: maybe 95% of the time Star Wars wins, Trek has nothing, end of story. But there are a few exceptions to that rule, and because the bulk of the evidence is so overwhelmingly in one direction, I think that people tend to ignore the other five percent. I will never claim that the Feds can match the Empire industrially, or militarily. Not even close. But that doesn't mean they have nothing useful. And just because a Star Wars power can casually obliterate Fed. worlds doesn't mean they'll choose to do so, especially as a first resort. The Empire might, but not nessissarily, and the Rebels sure as hell won't.

And Batman, I'm not ignoring your points, but I'm short on time right now, so I'll address them sepperately late.

[Batman]

In your own time.
And when I talk about the Empire I DO mean Palpatine's Empire. The Old Republic, New Republic, Imperial Remnant, GFFA and the later resurgent Empire (which I don't know beans about, I gave up on the Wars EU halfway through the NJO) might very well react differently.

[Typo]

I was reading some stories about Star Wars in comics.
All things i didnt knowed till some weeks ago: a Imperial Remnant, Fel Dinasty, Pellaon, Thrawn (who i already refered in this thread), a new Republic, a new Jedi Order, etc.
And im loving even more this universe ( though i didnt like much that Vong alliens...).

But, precisely, because this is an galaxy with so much drama (and Siths - that homicidal maniacs control now almost all the Empire - again, into the fray) and there aren`t any power than can say: "im absolutely safe, my power is unchalanged!" wasn`t wise to the Empire (through his several rulers - from Palpatine to Roan Fel, or even counting with the usurper Darth Khrayt) to show a diferent aproach to the Federation, instead of the typical "you give what i want, or i kill you!"?

Or, maybe, im too optimist?

[Temujin]

I have to honestly say that I can't see any of the main ST races, aide from the Borg, not giving up and accepting subjugation once they realize the level of technological disparity that exists between them and the SW galaxy.

• - The Federation: The Federation can be stupid, but not that stupid. Despite Trektard rantings, the Federation won't waste the lives of billions of its citizens in a Quixotic battle.
  
  - The Klingons: Likewise. They talk shit about "it being a good day to die" and the "dishonor of surrender", but then we've seen them back down, surrender, be taken captive, etc. They're basically a bunch of tough talkers who put on a front of being berserker like, but they can be really quite sensible about their own survival when necessary.
  
  - The Romulans: Much the same. They are arrogant and stubbon and talk about ruling the galaxy, but have shown stronger survival traits than the Klingons.
  
  - The Cardassians: Well we've already seen how easily they'll accept vassal state status
  
  - The Ferengi: A whole new galaxy of races and products. Even if it means starting at the bottom, the Grand Nagus himself would gladly whore himself out when he considers the degree of potential profit that could be made.
  
  - The Dominion: They are the only ones who I could see being stubborn enough to take a chance at full scale war and only before they truly realize just what they are up against. The hidden status of Founder home world in conjunction with the disposable nature of the Vorta and Jem'Hadar, and their hatred of and disregard for solids, I could see them holding out longer than anyone every than the Borg.

[Night_stalker]

Yeah, but the Dominion will be examples of quickly by the Imperial commander. Think about it, he knows that he won't get reinforcements instantly, even with the speed of hyperdrive so he has to make examples of those who resist, and keep the populace from revolting through the use of fear.

[Temujin]

Of course if the Founders did send in the Jem'Hadar, and promptly saw them slaughtered, they would likely stay in hiding, ordering the Vorta to take the fall for them. Being the OP states contact occurs in the 23rd century, the Founders luckily have the fact that they are running the Dominion still a secret. However, if their secret does get out, they'll need every ounce of their abilities to avoid being hunted down like dogs.

[The Romulan Republic]

I know this is a bit overdue, but here's my reply:

We already KNOW the Empire is willing to fry a world from orbit and once that happened a time or two, so will the Alpha Quadrant races.
And it WILL happen if the AQ resists because while they may have stuff the Empire is INTERESTED in, it doesn't have anything the Empire actually NEEDS.

Granted. However, what happens when you've got a loyal puppet state with insurgents operating inside it? What do you do, bomb your loyal puppet to get the terrorists?

Well, if you're a madman like Tarkin, maybe you would. But that doesn't mean its the most logical approach.

They don't NEED to. All they have to do is show they CAN smash any fleet, planet, or anything else the AQ wants to bring to the fight execution, mostly with a single ship, and not a particularly big one by Wars standards.

See above.

Folding in the face of a force YOU CAN'T IN YOUR WILDEST DREAMS HOPE TO MATCH isn't cowardice. It's common sense.

I get your point, but here's where I'm coming from:

The Federation has a long history of captains who will stand up to beings such as Q, and will choose the destruction of their ships over compromising their ideals. You might call it heroic, you might call it stupid, but those are canon facts.

There will be a diplomatic solution either way. The Imperials will say 'We want X' and either the AQ agrees immediately OR the AQ agrees after several planets have been torched because they initially DIDN'T agree due to idealists like Kirk and Picard dreaming they actually can fight back only to be taken out of the picture once it becomes painfully obvious they CAN'T.

With Palpatine, you're right, if that resistance is coming from the Federation government. But what if the Federation government is made up of good loyal Imperial puppets, but you've still got insurgents?

Then you either slag cities over a few terrorists, go in with ground troops (who will be theoretically vulnerable to attacks by insurgents), or pull out. Better by far, practically as well as ethically, to simply play nice so most of the populace won't want to rebel.

Granted, I don't expect Palpatine to see it that way. He's the Dark Lord of the Sith, and his Empire saw such atrocities as the Tarkin Doctrine embraced by the state. I'm just saying there are other ways it could play out, and Ghost Rider's silly little idea that any Star Wars power will get whatever they want by simply threatening orbital bombardment is childishly oversimplistic. Certainly if he's trying to apply it to the Rebellion as well.

[Batman]

I know this is a bit overdue, but here's my reply:

I DID say in your own time you know

We already KNOW the Empire is willing to fry a world from orbit and once that happened a time or two, so will the Alpha Quadrant races.
And it WILL happen if the AQ resists because while they may have stuff the Empire is INTERESTED in, it doesn't have anything the Empire actually NEEDS.

Granted. However, what happens when you've got a loyal puppet state with insurgents operating inside it? What do you do, bomb your loyal puppet to get the terrorists?
Well, if you're a madman like Tarkin, maybe you would. But that doesn't mean its the most logical approach.

Pity the poor Federation citizens that get killed by them and tell the local authorities that, yes, that's EXACTLY what you will do if they don't get cracking and FIX the problem. Not that the Empire is all that hot on that 'logical approach' thingy anyway.

They don't NEED to. All they have to do is show they CAN smash any fleet, planet, or anything else the AQ wants to bring to the fight execution, mostly with a single ship, and not a particularly big one by Wars standards.

See above.

Likewise.

Folding in the face of a force YOU CAN'T IN YOUR WILDEST DREAMS HOPE TO MATCH isn't cowardice. It's common sense.

I get your point, but here's where I'm coming from:
The Federation has a long history of captains who will stand up to beings such as Q, and will choose the destruction of their ships over compromising their ideals. You might call it heroic, you might call it stupid, but those are canon facts.

Hero captains lose their ships. Bored corvette commander toasts a few more to make the point stick.

There will be a diplomatic solution either way. The Imperials will say 'We want X' and either the AQ agrees immediately OR the AQ agrees after several planets have been torched because they initially DIDN'T agree due to idealists like Kirk and Picard dreaming they actually can fight back only to be taken out of the picture once it becomes painfully obvious they CAN'T.

With Palpatine, you're right, if that resistance is coming from the Federation government. But what if the Federation government is made up of good loyal Imperial puppets, but you've still got insurgents?

So what if a few million innocents die in the process? Plenty more were they came from. It's not like Empire didn't do that BEFORE. Toprawa comes to mind.

Then you either slag cities over a few terrorists, go in with ground troops (who will be theoretically vulnerable to attacks by insurgents), or pull out. Better by far, practically as well as ethically, to simply play nice so most of the populace won't want to rebel.

That would have been a lot easier in the EMPIRE too you know, which had a LOT more effective Rebels. Didn't happen.

Granted, I don't expect Palpatine to see it that way. He's the Dark Lord of the Sith, and his Empire saw such atrocities as the Tarkin Doctrine embraced by the state. I'm just saying there are other ways it could play out, and Ghost Rider's silly little idea that any Star Wars power will get whatever they want by simply threatening orbital bombardment is childishly oversimplistic. Certainly if he's trying to apply it to the Rebellion as well.

As I said, I'm talking Palpatine's Empire, and Palpatine's Empire ONLY.

[The Romulan Republic]

Overall, I'm not disputing that Palpatine would probably be a dick, alienate the population, cause rebellion, and then launch an overly heavy-handed retaliation. You are correct, after all: that's exactly what the fucker did in his home galaxy.

That said, there are a few things I'd like to comment on further.

Hero captains lose their ships. Bored corvette commander toasts a few more to make the point stick.

Granted, any captain who tries to stand and fight against an Imperial ship is horribly, horribly outclassed. I'm just noting that going by prior canon, there would be some prominent Federation officers who would resist (and thereby likely provoke retaliation).

So what if a few million innocents die in the process? Plenty more were they came from. It's not like Empire didn't do that BEFORE. Toprawa comes to mind.

Not familiar with Toprawa. Not that its the only possible example, but more information would be appreciated.

That would have been a lot easier in the EMPIRE too you know, which had a LOT more effective Rebels. Didn't happen.

Granted, Palpatine would probably act like a dick because that's what he does.

As I said, I'm talking Palpatine's Empire, and Palpatine's Empire ONLY.

I'm not going to bother with trying to dispute how Palpatine would most likely respond. I'm just clarifying my position, which is basically that while Palpatine's Empire might act in that way (unless for some reason there's something on the planet they want enough not to risk destroying it), there are other alternatives, and excellent reasons for taking them, and that some people (not nessissarily you, but some people) are too quick to treat the Tarkin Doctrine as the be-all and end-all of Trek vs. Wars intergalactic relations.

[The Romulan Republic]

I have to honestly say that I can't see any of the main ST races, aide from the Borg, not giving up and accepting subjugation once they realize the level of technological disparity that exists between them and the SW galaxy.

Depends how you define "main ST races." The Q get about as much screen-time as the Borg, don't they, and they'd almost certainly laugh off the Empire. Either they'd engage in some fun baiting of Imperial captains, or dismiss the Empire as beneath their notice. Or put it on trial. And I'm not sure the Empire could do anything more to stop them than the Federation could.

Though regarding the Borg, I think they might actually stand down, if they realize how outclassed they are.

• - The Federation: The Federation can be stupid, but not that stupid. Despite Trektard rantings, the Federation won't waste the lives of billions of its citizens in a Quixotic battle.

The Federation government might not, but there would be rogue captains. Who would probably die, but there would be Federation officers who would say "no." For fuck's sake, they'll say "no" to Q.

- The Klingons: Likewise. They talk shit about "it being a good day to die" and the "dishonor of surrender", but then we've seen them back down, surrender, be taken captive, etc. They're basically a bunch of tough talkers who put on a front of being berserker like, but they can be really quite sensible about their own survival when necessary.

Maybe. Given the anti-alien crap in the Empire, Klingons would probably end up as slaves, so some might choose death over slavery. A lot would probably surrender though, once it was obvious they couldn't win.

- The Romulans: Much the same. They are arrogant and stubbon and talk about ruling the galaxy, but have shown stronger survival traits than the Klingons.

The Romulans are very cautious.

- The Cardassians: Well we've already seen how easily they'll accept vassal state status

Quite true.

- The Ferengi: A whole new galaxy of races and products. Even if it means starting at the bottom, the Grand Nagus himself would gladly whore himself out when he considers the degree of potential profit that could be made.

Probably true even if the gap wasn't so big. The Ferengi don't seem to give a shit about politics, by and large, as long as they can follow their stupid "Rules of Aquisition" and make money. They didn't take a side in the Dominion Wars, for example.

- The Dominion: They are the only ones who I could see being stubborn enough to take a chance at full scale war and only before they truly realize just what they are up against. The hidden status of Founder home world in conjunction with the disposable nature of the Vorta and Jem'Hadar, and their hatred of and disregard for solids, I could see them holding out longer than anyone every than the Borg.[/list]

Of course, they'll lose an all-out war in the end, but like you said, some Founders might escape, where I imagine their abilities would probably allow them to hide for a while and maybe conduct some sort of insurgency (or help the Rebels if they could get past their hatred of solids).

[Batman]

That said, there are a few things I'd like to comment on further.

Hero captains lose their ships. Bored corvette commander toasts a few more to make the point stick.

Granted, any captain who tries to stand and fight against an Imperial ship is horribly, horribly outclassed. I'm just noting that going by prior canon, there would be some prominent Federation officers who would resist (and thereby likely provoke retaliation).

Absolutely. They'd ALSO be very quickly silenced once it becomes evident just how utterly POINTLESS resistance is. The Federation is stupid, but not QUITE stupid enough for 'we'd rather DIE than surrender'.

So what if a few million innocents die in the process? Plenty more were they came from. It's not like Empire didn't do that BEFORE. Toprawa comes to mind.

Not familiar with Toprawa. Not that its the only possible example, but more information would be appreciated.

Planet where a tiny fraction of the populace aided in getting the DS plans. Entire planet was reduced to relying on Imperial food shipments for survival and were made to beg and grovel for them whenever they arrived.

[Night_stalker]

Yeah, I can't see the Federation allowing its ships to directly challange the Empire. They like not having their fleet becoming molten slag. The most I can see Starfleet allowing them to do is relying messages and supplies to Section 31 holdouts, but nothing directly confrontational.

[The Romulan Republic]

Yeah, I can't see the Federation allowing its ships to directly challange the Empire. They like not having their fleet becoming molten slag. The most I can see Starfleet allowing them to do is relying messages and supplies to Section 31 holdouts, but nothing directly confrontational.

Again, I'm not talking about the Federation government sanctioning rebellion. I'm talking about captains going rogue and refusing to follow the Empire.

If the ones who rebelled had even a trace of brains, they'd probably either flee to some remote backwater or try to join the Rebellion, though. Section 31 can't do jack to the Empire unless their technology is a lot better than the rest of the Federation's.

But, can you seriously see Picard or Kirk willingly following orders when Palpatine (or the collaborationist Federation government) tells them to execute a bunch of dissidents or ship some alien slaves to the mines? Both have felt quite free to disobey the Federation government in the past.

Kirk: The Search for Spock (and his crew in The Undiscovered Country).

Picard: First Contact, Insurrection.

If someone thinks their loyalty to the state would override their principles, they haven't been paying attention to canon.

[Night_stalker]

Believe me, I had no illusions that Kirk will just roll over and surrender. He's too much of a fighter to do so. Picard on the other hand would be pragmatic enough to at least see how life under the Empire is before he tries to take down the Empire.