ZOMG the E-D can drill a 3000km hole in 19 seconds!!!!!!!!!!

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ZOMG the E-D can drill a 3000km hole in 19 seconds!!!!!!!!!!

Post by Azron_Stoma »

Marakor100 trying to convince me that in "inheritance" the Enterprise D drilled a 3000km hole in 19 seconds, because all the "Magma Pockets" were supposedly near the planet's core. :wanker:
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Re: ZOMG the E-D can drill a 3000km hole in 19 seconds!!!!!!

Post by Temujin »

The whole concept of that situation was stupid. Essentially what it sounds like they're talking about is plate tectonics shutting down, which would take many millions of years if just starting. In essence they would have nothing to worry about, of course ignoring the fact they are a space faring civilization and all that that entails.

Per the OP, if I remember from the episode, you could see daylight and sky clearly when they were at the bottom of the shaft.
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Re: ZOMG the E-D can drill a 3000km hole in 19 seconds!!!!!!

Post by BLACKSUN2000 »

Yeah... if that's a few km near the planets core they wouldn't be able to walk around in there. :banghead:

Nevermind the fact that we all know phasers are using that NDF technobabbel chain reaction to make the hole in the first place.

So he's probably trying to say that's somehow more impressive than imperial weapons. :wanker:

It doesn't help tha that idiot marakor100 is a mindless scooter cockgoblin.
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Re: ZOMG the E-D can drill a 3000km hole in 19 seconds!!!!!!

Post by Azron_Stoma »

Temujin wrote:Per the OP, if I remember from the episode, you could see daylight and sky clearly when they were at the bottom of the shaft.
He claims the shaft was a cone shape hence why daylight and sky was clearly visible :roll: :lol:
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Re: ZOMG the E-D can drill a 3000km hole in 19 seconds!!!!!!

Post by Teleros »

Temujin wrote:Per the OP, if I remember from the episode, you could see daylight and sky clearly when they were at the bottom of the shaft.
Yeah, very clearly in fact...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z1o5jGOT ... re=related watch at 1:55.
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Re: ZOMG the E-D can drill a 3000km hole in 19 seconds!!!!!!

Post by Temujin »

Azron_Stoma wrote:
Temujin wrote:Per the OP, if I remember from the episode, you could see daylight and sky clearly when they were at the bottom of the shaft.
He claims the shaft was a cone shape hence why daylight and sky was clearly visible :roll: :lol:
That would have to be one hell of a wide cone.

From the video, I'd guess the hole is only a kilometer or two deep at most.
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Re: ZOMG the E-D can drill a 3000km hole in 19 seconds!!!!!!

Post by Batman »

If that. And curious how that shat looks decidedly cylindrical. OR how the CAVES they're running around in are actually NOTHING like what you would find 3000km deep into a planet but totally compatible with a depth of less than a few kilometres :D
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Re: ZOMG the E-D can drill a 3000km hole in 19 seconds!!!!!!

Post by takemeout_totheblack »

LOL does he actually think he's the first trektard to bring this up?

Where is this debate taking place?
There should be an official metric in regard to stupidity, so we can insult the imbeciles, morons, and RSAs out there the civilized way.
Any ideas for units of measure?

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Re: ZOMG the E-D can drill a 3000km hole in 19 seconds!!!!!!

Post by DrStrangelove »

Kor is just parroting crap he saw on SFJ
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Re: ZOMG the E-D can drill a 3000km hole in 19 seconds!!!!!!

Post by Azron_Stoma »

DrStrangelove wrote:Kor is just parroting crap he saw on SFJ
Not surprised at all.
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Re: ZOMG the E-D can drill a 3000km hole in 19 seconds!!!!!!

Post by DrStrangelove »

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Re: ZOMG the E-D can drill a 3000km hole in 19 seconds!!!!!!

Post by takemeout_totheblack »

He Who Is Like God Arbour: BLACKSUN2000, that, if the magma pockets were a few km near the planets core, they wouldn't be able to walk around in there. But there is no explanation, why they shouldn't be able to walk around in these magma pockets, if they were a few kilometers away from the core of the planet. What conditions are to be expected down there that are supposed to prevent them from walking around?
Huh. Is this guy mentally challenged or something? Does he not know that 3000km deep into any given terrestrial planet and they would be walking on MAGMA several thousand degrees in temperature? Even if it's 'solidifying' that deep in the planet would still be several hundred degrees higher than what those trek pajamas can protect against!
There should be an official metric in regard to stupidity, so we can insult the imbeciles, morons, and RSAs out there the civilized way.
Any ideas for units of measure?

This could be the most one-sided fight since 1973 when Ali fought a 80-foot tall mechanical Joe Frazier. My memory isn't what it used to be, but I think the entire earth was destroyed.
~George Foreman, February 27th 3000 C.E.
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Re: ZOMG the E-D can drill a 3000km hole in 19 seconds!!!!!!

Post by Serafina »

If anyone from StarfleetJedi.Net is reading this:

We are hardly discussing SWvsST anymore. This is only a subforum of our Sci-Fi forum, and the one with the least traffic.
It's not because it's forbidden to discuss it - it's just that the discussion has been done so many times over and over and over again. Every szenario where Trek has even a remote chance of getting even relies on massive amounts of outside help (Krenim Borg, Dominion, Q, other universes) and still comes out orders of magnituded less powerfull than Star Wars in sheer firepower.
Trek then has to resort to outlandish tricks. All these tricks can be dismissed with "if it's possible, then why don't they use it against other threats from Trek?"

If the Federation can use timetravel to resolve everything, why don't they use it?
If that borg-beating biospecies is that powerfull, why can Voyager beat it? If the weapon Voyager used is just that good, why doesn't the Federation curb-stomp everything else with it?
If the Krenim are that good, why do they loose at all?
If Q want's to protect the Federation, why doesn't he do so more often?

You can go on and on like that. In a straight-up fight, the Federation is clearly outmatched by the majority of evidence. Small, fuzzly interpretated outliers might bring it on roughly the same level (tough they can easily be debunked, and most have been) - in which case sheer numbers/size and aptitude to war would win the day for the Empire.

Overall, the Federation can not win without resorting to tricks - tricks that they never use in the show. Which is itself proof enough that they do not work.
That's why we do not actually debate SWvsST anymore. No rational, informed person does it any more, at leat not in a serious way.

However, if you look at other parts of this board, you will see that there is still a lot of discussion going on. We are not banning members for simply disagreeing - you can often find numerous disgressing oppinions. As long as you are putting up a good argument, you are welcome
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Re: ZOMG the E-D can drill a 3000km hole in 19 seconds!!!!!!

Post by Serafina »

Hey, someone apparently read it :D. Oh, look, it's apparently a banned troll.
And since i am not going to register on that forum due to being lavishly lazy, and want to share the hillarity with others:
BannedTroll wrote:It has been decided already on that forum what the firepower stats are as well as shielding ect ect ect and ANY debate that disagrees with them is a banable offence for not having a "good argument".
Yes, that's true!
We already decided which side has greater firepower - based on the majority of consistent evidence.
That includes small ships blowing up a large number of sizable (and scaleable) asteroids, the canonic ability to reduce a planets crust to molten slag within hours, the ability to traverse a galaxy of canonic size within days, canonic accounts of fleet sizes, ships withstanding said amounts of firepower, acceleration figures based on planetary diameters etc.
We are not banning members for simply disagreeing with us unless they do so in regards to what WE have decided the truth is regarding stats and OUR version of what happened in certain episodes/movies for both sides.............. if they accept that (and can find anything left to frigging debate...LOL) then debate they will not be banned (mostly because we have stacked the deck so much in our favor debate is pointless).
:lol:
Not only did he completely miss my point about being able to debate all over our various forums, but he fails to see why we actually ban trolls like him.
They basically fall into two categories:
-Those arguing for lower Wars firepower, radically altering canon definitions and numbers in the process. Those are simply lieing, ignoring reality (such as LucasArts policies) and making up their own numbers. If someone could show with actual math, using canon (even just G-level), that SW-firepower etc. is indeed as low, he would of course not be banned.
Of course, like for instance creationists, these people are up against a wealth of evidence and often incapable or unwilling to employ actual math.
-Tricksters. They used the already mentioned tricks, using (just like creationists) golden-bullet mentality: If you can show one single way to beat someone, you must utterly destroy him in a war.
By that logic, a primitive society who can clog a tanks engines with sand and stones would win against the US military.


These categories are, of course, not mutually exclusive.
The idiot does not even see what she is actually saying, now THAT is what i call a blinkered rabid warsie.
Well, let's see: What did i actually say?
myself wrote:If anyone from StarfleetJedi.Net is reading this:

We are hardly discussing SWvsST anymore. This is only a subforum of our Sci-Fi forum, and the one with the least traffic.
It's not because it's forbidden to discuss it - it's just that the discussion has been done so many times over and over and over again. Every szenario where Trek has even a remote chance of getting even relies on massive amounts of outside help (Krenim Borg, Dominion, Q, other universes) and still comes out orders of magnituded less powerfull than Star Wars in sheer firepower.
Trek then has to resort to outlandish tricks. All these tricks can be dismissed with "if it's possible, then why don't they use it against other threats from Trek?"

If the Federation can use timetravel to resolve everything, why don't they use it?
If that borg-beating biospecies is that powerfull, why can Voyager beat it? If the weapon Voyager used is just that good, why doesn't the Federation curb-stomp everything else with it?
If the Krenim are that good, why do they loose at all?
If Q want's to protect the Federation, why doesn't he do so more often?

You can go on and on like that. In a straight-up fight, the Federation is clearly outmatched by the majority of evidence. Small, fuzzly interpretated outliers might bring it on roughly the same level (tough they can easily be debunked, and most have been) - in which case sheer numbers/size and aptitude to war would win the day for the Empire.

Overall, the Federation can not win without resorting to tricks - tricks that they never use in the show. Which is itself proof enough that they do not work.
That's why we do not actually debate SWvsST anymore. No rational, informed person does it any more, at leat not in a serious way.

However, if you look at other parts of this board, you will see that there is still a lot of discussion going on. We are not banning members for simply disagreeing - you can often find numerous disgressing oppinions. As long as you are putting up a good argument, you are welcome
My argument boils down to:
-We have already established numbers for both sides, backed up by a wealth of evidence.
-Therefore, we can see that a fight between the two sides is hopelessly outlandish.
-Therefore, a rational debate based on actual warfare is fruitless, since the outcome is obvious.
-Some people still continue the debate, using illogical, outlandish tactics.
-These can be debuned simply by pointing out that Trek never uses them against their actual, canonic threats.
-Claims of us not being willing to debate are obviously wrong in the light of numerous other debates on this forum.

That's, in essence, what i said. Of course, BannedTroll decided to quote but a small portion of my post. Most notably, he completely ignored the part where i asked why they never use their incredible tricks against their canonic threats.
It is a bit like saying they are willing to play a game of football but if the opposition dares to kick the ball and actually try to score goals and try to tackle us then they will be sent off and get a penalty against them.
I do not actually know why he compares a debate to a sport. A debabe is not supposed to be a competition - rather, it should be rational people investigating evidence and arriving at a conclusion based upon that evidence. Of course, taht is utterl impossible if one side disagrees about the evidence itself without presenting a consistent alternative.
Again, just like creationists. Yes, i like that apt comparision.

And here's evidence of this:
Personally i have seen nothing in regards to SW ships including the ISD's and SSD's that was much past the kiloton range in regards to firepower, and now we have T as well as the existing G canon hammering and debunking saxons rubbish denying debates on stats is going to be expected from them.
The DeathStar alone easily contradicts this. The ability to blow up a planet is clearly canonical and does not rely on any kind of chain reaction, since such a thing can by definition not be instantaneous. Yet we see that the explosion cleary behaved in such fashion.
The mere concept that a military which can put out enough firepower to DET a planet is incapable of constructin weapons more powerfull than modern nuclear bombs is laughable. Indeed, mere downscaling of weapons gives us significantly more firepower than ST, even if we use high-end ST outputs.
In fact, (nearly) all calculations on the SD.Net main site do not rely on Saxtons calulations, which were done for Episode II.
Rather, they utilize EP IV-VI and simple physics calculations, clearly showing tremendous firepower for SW and pityfull (as in: France can dish out more than that) firepower for ST.

Enjoy this remote debate, which is more of a debunking combined with a renewable source of BS to debunk.
Now, if only ST (aside for VOY and ENT) would run on BS, they could beat Wars with that alone!
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Re: ZOMG the E-D can drill a 3000km hole in 19 seconds!!!!!!

Post by Serafina »

Addendum (which you might conveniently ignore):
Of course, i am by no means implying that Trekkies lack debate or mental skills.
However, i AM saying that those who twist the evidence in such a way that ST would win in a straight fight or emply the mentioned trickery do lack one or, more likely, both - since it is quite evident that the first is simply not true and the second demonstable not possible.
Oh, and in case you wonder - i am engaging in this remote "debate" simply because it grants us both freedom from being banned for either of our arguments. Should this be a problem with the moderation staff of either forum, we can simply move this to emails.
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"The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one." - Wilhelm Stekel
"In 1969 it was easier to send a man to the Moon than to have the public accept a homosexual" - Broomstick

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Re: ZOMG the E-D can drill a 3000km hole in 19 seconds!!!!!!

Post by Batman »

Yeah. Like any of them care. Trek routinely gets curbstomped by Wars therefore we're all evil Warsies. That the SAME people who argue that Wars would curbstomp Trek happily agree that WARS would get curbstomped by the Time Lords, Culture or any other SciFi entity that massively outguns Wars is besides the point to them. Trek LOSES, therefore we're obviously biased.

And I see someone from SFJ just underlined my point :D
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
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Re: ZOMG the E-D can drill a 3000km hole in 19 seconds!!!!!!

Post by Serafina »

Batman wrote:Yeah. Like any of them care. Trek routinely gets curbstomped by Wars therefore we're all evil Warsies. That the SAME people who argue that Wars would curbstomp Trek happily agree that WARS would get curbstomped by the Time Lords, Culture or any other SciFi entity that massively outguns Wars is besides the point to them. Trek LOSES, therefore we're obviously biased.

And I see someone from SFJ just underlined my point :D
Hmm, i wonder how that line of tought works?
Oh, right - by IGNORANCE.
Otherwise, they would have to see that we are, in fact, NOT "pro-wars" (if anything, i am a 40K and/or Culture fan), but rather decide who would win based on available evidence. Hence Wars looses against a non-significant number of Sci-Fi verses, often even worse than Trek does against Wars (such as, say, the Time Lords winning within seconds rather than days in SWvsST).
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"The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one." - Wilhelm Stekel
"In 1969 it was easier to send a man to the Moon than to have the public accept a homosexual" - Broomstick

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Re: ZOMG the E-D can drill a 3000km hole in 19 seconds!!!!!!

Post by Serafina »

Another gem to share:
The only thing i have sbeen told they try and use is a comment about "the heat of a nuke focused in a small area, causing a fireball". I got the impression that they are using that comment from god knows where to somehow claim that petaton weaponry in SW somehow only sends up a spurt of dirt a bit of smoke and a flash of flame..lol.

Anyway the joke is that a nuke hits about what 10 to 11 million C ish at its hottest and while that will keep you toasty we can already focus our lasers at the NIF so that at a single point we get temperatures of around 100-115 million C (ten times hotter than SW turbo lasers lol.).
You see, he simply fails to grasp the concept of temperature.

Let's explain it by a simple example:
You want to heat, say, a litre of water.
Now, you have two ways to do so:
Once ball of metal (you can choose the kind of metal) that weights 1 gram and is heated to 300°C(or F, doesn't matter).
And another ball of (the same) metal that weights 1 kilogram, but is only heated to 100°C.

Now, which one will heat up your litre of water more? Assuming for simplicity that they will eventually release all their heat (or reach equilibrium with the water) and no heat is lost to other factors.

The answer (or rather, conclusion from it): Spoiler
It's not the temperature you measure - it's the amount of energy the damn thing actually stores. A turbolaser could be 1° above absolute zero and still contain a gigaton of energy. Temperature is just the ability to release energy in the form of heat - hence a 1° above AZ weapon would be bad if it works with energy transfer due to heat - but the difference between 10 million or 100 million is quite irrelevant in that regard.
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Re: ZOMG the E-D can drill a 3000km hole in 19 seconds!!!!!!

Post by Batman »

Serafina wrote:Another gem to share:
The only thing i have sbeen told they try and use is a comment about "the heat of a nuke focused in a small area, causing a fireball". I got the impression that they are using that comment from god knows where to somehow claim that petaton weaponry in SW somehow only sends up a spurt of dirt a bit of smoke and a flash of flame..lol.
What in Valen's name is that even in reference to? The ONLY time PT firepower would come into play if at all are capital ship battles where there's that pesky problem of the shields being in the way and the hull being made of unobtanium the properties of which you...haven't the foggiest about.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
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Re: ZOMG the E-D can drill a 3000km hole in 19 seconds!!!!!!

Post by Serafina »

TRANSLATION:
Why do you think you actually have to translate that?
Oh, right - you can not debunk what i actually said (with, you know, evidence), so you resort to strawman distoritons.
Which is nicely visible in you ignoring large parts of my posts and distorting the order in which i wrote stuff.
"We took a small sampling of highly speculative material regarding asteroids (ignoring the fact they explode very easily from light collisions) and made up silly stats from them. We then ignored all the contradictory evidence in the movies and also used a book written by a fanboi using comic book material and misinterpreted comments regarding BDZ. He also put stats in it that actually contradicted his own sites figures at the time but lets not dwell on these inconsistances as the reply will be on a forum that i cannot ban ppl."
Well - why should Asteroids be "speculative"?
We know what kind of asteroids we have in real life. We know how they look. We can scale them easily, based on the movies.
Why is it so unreasonable to use them for scaling firepower?
Oh, and i would love it if you would actually name the "contradictory evidence".
"Her argument boils down to:
-We have already established numbers for both sides, backed up by pure speculation on a highly dubious asteroid scene and a debunked book on one side. And by ignoring canon material on the other along with using arguments based solely on our opinion of the politics of ST (because M.A.D. and or at least mass genocide on a galactic level as a solution to every conflict makes sense to me).
One scene? Well - there are at least five (ANH Alderaan remnants, TESB Tie-fighter collision, Star Destroyer firepower, AotC laser firepower, seismic bomb firepower).
And yes, MAD makes a lot of sense. If you are at war and try to win, you will use your means to destroy the other side. We see such moves in Star Wars, but never in Star Trek.
-Therefore, we need a good excuse to deal with anybody pointing this out, adding the contradictory material or showing me that my silly idea on politics, M.A.D and mass genocide are about as far from canon in regards to trek politics as you can get.
Well - the sheer lack of numbers or coherent arguments is more than enough to show to any neutral observer (such as me, being not terribly into neither wars nor trek) that those contradictionary numbers are on the same level as, say, creationist arguments.
-Therefore, we claim anybody doing so is a troll and using noncanon, unscientific methods and poor locic and ban them ASAP."
And you think there is no other way to esablish that someone uses no science, distorts canon and doesn't understand logic?
But hey, go ahead - Parting Shots is a public forum. Try to find someone (preferably relating to the debate) who got banned while using coherent logic and arguments.
I claim it is not a competition/sport but we ban anybody who does not agree with our interpretation of the evidence, does not ignore contradictory evidence like we do, or dares to add new canon evidence that over rides or contradicts our own..........and yet we claim to be a debate forum.
Yes, discussions are NOT a sport.
The side with the better arguments wins, but if you are a good debate that doesn't depent on how good you or the other side are - being better doesn't give you better arguments. Rather, the available evidence on each side does - for instance, say, in the evolution vs. creation "debate". There are lots of creationists that are really, really good at debating - but their side has so little evidence that they still loose.
Really, just like STvsSW - Trek has so little in their favor (that is not made up) that you can not win, no matter how good at debating you are.
The DS chain reaction effect is a real thorn in my side, the explosion obviously NOT being instant when seen in frame by frame quite simply is a chain reaction effect of some sort and it really bites me in the ass when it is pointed out. Still a dude called darkstar mentioned it along with other things so if i bring it up and it is supported in this discussion i can wave him around like a flag in the hopes of deflecting the need to address the actual facts.
Well - go ahead, demonstrate how it is a chain reaction.
Because the planetary shield is not only canon, readily explaining the slight delay - but a chain reaction is also not coherent with the visual evidence if you deny the shield.
Oh, and - if it is a chain reaction, that would actually make Wars stronger! Just like the NDF-reaction is usefull - it allows you to get a lot of bang for the buck! If a fast chain reaction allows to destroy something with only a small amount of energy, it is clearly much better than having to do so via DET.
"I just made the comment "the heat of a nuke focused in a small area, causing a fireball" look not only stupid and rather pointless but i also made my rabid warsie bro who was using it to try and show that turbo laser bolts could transfer 200 gigatons into a huge variety of materials in or out of a atmosphere with little more than a puff of smoke and flash of light look like a complete moron.......i suppose il need to dig myself (and him) out of this one in my next post."
You know, this is where the "Tranlation" stuff get's annoying - because this part is barely coherent.

Of course, i never made the claim that petaton weapons only "send up a spurt of dirt a bit of smoke and a flash of flame".
Indeed, i would be surprised if you could actually show where anyone made that claim.
You might just be referring to how a high-yield explosion in space looks different from an explosion in an atmosphere - which is just a fact. You can't judge the yield of an explosion in a vacuum by the resulting fireball - because there is no fireball.

To quote your original stupidity:
Anyway the joke is that a nuke hits about what 10 to 11 million C ish at its hottest and while that will keep you toasty we can already focus our lasers at the NIF so that at a single point we get temperatures of around 100-115 million C (ten times hotter than SW turbo lasers lol.).
This simply has nothing to do with...well, anything.
You apparently try to say that temperature somehow matters for detructive effect - when in fact only the energy released matters. Very low temperatures would impede that somewhat - but it doesn't matter anywhere else.
This clearly shows that you do not even know what temperature is - which makes you an uneducated idiot.
I dunno if this is a good time to mention it Serafina but im told the guy seems to think that turbo laser bolts act like that cos of treks "Heisenberg compensators" .........i own a landscaping company so do you want to borrow my 3 Ton Excavator?, personally i think you are gonna need the 45 ton one for this dude.
Aah, technobabble.
Care to explain how "Heisenberg compensators" (who propably relate to the Heisenberg Uncertainty principle) can increase/decrease the yield of something? Because quantum effects tend to, you know, be unimportant on non-quantum scales.
And how TREK technology would affect our measurements of WARS technology? :lol:
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Re: ZOMG the E-D can drill a 3000km hole in 19 seconds!!!!!!

Post by Azron_Stoma »

Yeah, that's definitely Marakor100 aka Garetjax391, still trying to act like he's getting this all from word of mouth. In spite of using the exact same debate tactics, sentence structure, and so on and so forth. As well as still being under the impression that I somehow suggested Heisenberg Compensators were used in Turbolaser Technology. In spite of the fact that I expressly told him that was never the case. needless to say he STILL thinks I did, taking his misinterpretations/misunderstandings over what other people actually meant even after they correct him.

Where does that sound familiar?

Anyhow I simply referred to the fact that the"Blast the heat of a nuclear bomb into one small spot" for the Turbolasers isn't any more ridiculous than the concept of a Heisenberg Compensator, and if one can suspend disbelief for the later the former should be no problem.

He also claimed the "small spot" is supposed to be referring to the bolt in question, not the target area and no other interpretations were possible without being "Wank", even though the full quote explicitly states it to be the target.

He claims that the Turbolasers show "puffs of flame" etc in the Clone Wars episodes that have atmospheric fights between capital ships and is somehow proof against the yields in the ICS, in spite of the fact that we still have to account for said ship shields and hull materials, as well as other factors.

He seems to like doing things out of spite.

Finally, I don't recall them having Petaton level Turbolasers as standard ship armaments in the clone wars, or even Petaton level total ship firepowers in anything short of an ISD.
Last edited by Azron_Stoma on 2010-06-14 11:14am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ZOMG the E-D can drill a 3000km hole in 19 seconds!!!!!!

Post by Serafina »

More fun! In the DwarfFortress-sense, of course!

Oh, and lot's of ignored points by that dipshit - i guess his little brain can not conceed stuff otherwise.
TRANSLATION:

Il ignore the fact the asteroids in the scene i mentioned explode after very light collisions with each other (and the fact you pointed it out, even though i accuse you of ignoring parts of my posts) and try to force the useage of nonexploding terestrial asteroid calculations into the debate.
Ah, the fine difference between vaporizing and fracturing :lol: - not to mention "explosions", which tend to be other things and clearly distinguishable.
TRANSLATION:

I will fall back on the infamous logic loop.

We assume firepower is X (say 200 gigatons), thus shields must be Y, and armour must be Z because we see shields and armour getting hit and can see how much dmg or hits they can take and scale from that. And the great thing is that i can start at any point in the loop depending on what is being argued IE: for armour arguments i can start with Z and justify with X and Y, and for shields i start with Y i can justify with Z and X.

And all based on (ignoring) exploding roids and/or scaling the DS weapon like it uses DET when it actually uses a chain reaction.

I will ignore that the same simple formula can be used just as easily for 2 kilotons....We assume firepower is X (say 2 kilotons), thus shields must be Y, and armour must be Z because we see shields and armour getting hit and can see how much dmg or hits they can take and scale from that. And the great thing is that i can start at any point in the loop depending on what is being argued IE: for armour arguments i can start with Z and justify with X and Y, and for shields i start with Y i can justify with Z and X.

Simple, effective and very obvious.
Yes - yes it is! You are absolutely right in you basic premise!

That's why we establish firepower not from ship-to-ship combat - because in order for that to be meaningfull, we would have to know what kind of punishment the ships can take.
Hence, we use objects of know characteristica, such as human flesh or naturally occuring things like rocks.
Need i really comment on this, do you know what M.A.D stands for?.
Why yes, indeed, i do.
MAD was never a doctrine - it was the result of simple facts.
MAD is not "we will try to obliterate you no matter what" - it's "there is no way you can stop us from crippling you, no matter what you do".
It is, put simply, the result of the ability to obliterate the enemy infrastructure no matter how hard he strikes.

This is clearly not the case in Star Trek. If, say, the Federation beats Romulus, they can not send out a couple of ships to obliterate Earth. Simply because they lack the firepower to do so.
Star Wars, on the other hand, can do this. The Empire clearly DID this - in the form of the Death Star. An indestructible (well, in theory at least :wink: ), planet-obliterating weapon is the perfect example for something that can result in MAD. That's why it was so important to take it out and to prevent the second DS from being built.
Ignoring that little bit of deluded crazyness can you even begin to comprehend how little your opinion on the politics of ST means compared to the canon philosophy of the federation and Trek in general?. Not only that but also the fact that the tech and abilities of the weapons and devices are well documented and FACT within the trek verse and federation at the highest levels of canon?.
Of course they are well documented.
And we NEVER see a single ship destroying a planet from orbit. They clearly can not do it.
You need to play more outside your comfort zone on SDN sweete and away from your rabid worshipers because it is you who is behaving like a zealot who thinks their opinion over rides canon policies and canon evidence of the existance of these devices and the tech regarding them.
When did i ever override canon policies?
Trek canon policy is very simple: Series and movies count, everything else doesn't.
Wars canon policy is also quite simple: Movies, books and games count, in that order - a higher source can not be contradicted by a lower source.
Which means that YES, planetary shields, BDZ and much, much more are canon, because they do not contradict the movies.
myself wrote:And you think there is no other way to esablish that someone uses no science, distorts canon and doesn't understand logic?
But hey, go ahead - Parting Shots is a public forum. Try to find someone (preferably relating to the debate) who got banned while using coherent logic and arguments.
TRANSLATION:

I think M.A.D is a good idea as well as galactic genocide and that because Trek do not commit genocide regularly (galactic or otherwise) i think they cannot. How i intend to explain how they can commit M.A.D more than once should be interesting....

I think that even though we see WMD weapons and technology capable of destroying planets and even suns in Trek on many occasions that because they do not use them on a regular basis and cause M.A.D or just galactic genocide and armageddon that they and the tech actually never existed and the canon/episodes with them did not happen.
Holy non sequitur!
Seriously - what does that have to do with what i posted? Oh, right, you just went on with your drivel because you could not rebut what i wrote, dipshit.

And did i ever say that i thin that MAD is a morally good thing?
But i do think that it is a good thing from a military POV - because it means that you can not be truly beaten. The enemy might thwart your plans, but your territory, civilistaton and techbase will be secure - because he will not dare attack it.

Shield or no shield (although NO shield) the effect is still not consistant with a DET effect.
Yes, you keep on like that :lol:
Now, it's quite simple: If it had been a chain reaction, the side of the planet that started glowing first would have gone off first - not consistent with a chain reaction, the planet went boom as a whole. It could work if we saw it penetrating to the core, but that clearly did not happen - the glow spread aroudn the surface. Consistent with a shield, but not a chain reaction.
myself wrote:Oh, and - if it is a chain reaction, that would actually make Wars stronger! Just like the NDF-reaction is usefull - it allows you to get a lot of bang for the buck! If a fast chain reaction allows to destroy something with only a small amount of energy, it is clearly much better than having to do so via DET.
BWAHAHAHAAA!!!.

How awfully nice of you to go into such detail on WHY you stick to such absurd reasoning above (M.A.D being a good idea along with galactic genocide) about Treks well documented and total canon WMD's not existing (as most if not all are chain reaction weapons).

Absurd reasoning in regards to denying clear canon material now understood and oh.........Concession accepted.
Wow - another non sequitur!

Again - if the Death Star would utilize DET, that would not affect it's capabilities. It would, instead, reduce the amount of energy it takes - more bang for the buck.
Neither would it affect any of the other observed capabilitiey of Star Wars.

Actually i was passing on a theory a buddy gave me, it was one of your warsies that was claiming it so im glad "translating" confused you because we got the truth instead of spin if you had known you were shootng down one of your own.

So i guess the "uneducated idiot" is one of yours, in fact im told it may actually be the OP of your thread.
Suuure, a buddy. Someone with no name, but who is somehow representative of Star Wars debaters :roll:
Little lieing dodging disphit - start adressing my points. Or not - you are fun either way, just like Ralph from the Simpsons is.
As i said im sure the OP if he is the originator will be pleased that you consider him a "uneducated idiot" maybe if he reads that thermal bit and your issues with cross over technobabble he will feel less of a idiot in future.
It's good to know that i pleased you - everyone deserves a little pleasure every now and then, even wankers.
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"The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one." - Wilhelm Stekel
"In 1969 it was easier to send a man to the Moon than to have the public accept a homosexual" - Broomstick

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Re: ZOMG the E-D can drill a 3000km hole in 19 seconds!!!!!!

Post by Azron_Stoma »

To be honest, I always did wonder why it said "heat of a nuclear bomb" rather than "energy of a nuclear bomb" but I put in the quote as is because it's never a good idea to intentionally alter a quote.
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Re: ZOMG the E-D can drill a 3000km hole in 19 seconds!!!!!!

Post by Serafina »

Azron_Stoma wrote:To be honest, I always did wonder why it said "heat of a nuclear bomb" rather than "energy of a nuclear bomb" but I put in the quote as is because it's never a good idea to intentionally alter a quote.
Heat IS energy, so it's not entirely wrong.
Temperature, however, is NOT energy - it is the to the ability to move energy in the form of heat.
Not knowing that is a pretty good indicator that you know nothing about physics.
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"Destiny and fate are for those too weak to forge their own futures. Where we are 'supposed' to be is irrelevent." - Sir Nitram
"The world owes you nothing but painful lessons" - CaptainChewbacca
"The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one." - Wilhelm Stekel
"In 1969 it was easier to send a man to the Moon than to have the public accept a homosexual" - Broomstick

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Re: ZOMG the E-D can drill a 3000km hole in 19 seconds!!!!!!

Post by Azron_Stoma »

Had a feeling it was for a reason, but I get what you're saying, and yeah, I do know very little about physics, but I am willing to take note and accept corrections from people who do.
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