Borg cubes Questions: Return of the Borgwankers

[BLACKSUN2000]

Preface:

I am currently in a debate with a couple of Borg

I've pretty much bitchslapped them into near submission, they've even conceeded that the Borg can't match or assimilate Imperial tech. But they say eventually you would see cubes rolling off the lines with heavy armor and stronger shields and stronger....

Now the actual topic:

Anyway, a pro-wars debator said that the Cube first encountered by the ENT-D was actually superior to the ones seen in Voyager, even the ones with the armor plating. Is that true? Is there a source or link that can confirm this?

[Coalition]

Did they provide any evidence? If not, tell them to back it up first.

For the production of advanced cubes, ask them for a time frame, and ask them to compare that to what Imperial forces could do in the same time frame. If the Imperials are using their sensors and self-destruct enabled probe droids, chances are it will be similar to 8472's attack on the Borg, only better planned and more effective.

Borg ships destroyed everywhere by ships dropping out of hyperspace with guns already aimed, hypermatter missiles used to destroy the Unimatrix and the transwarp hubs, etc.

[Boeing 757]

Preface:

I am currently in a debate with a couple of Borg

I've pretty much bitchslapped them into near submission, they've even conceeded that the Borg can't match or assimilate Imperial tech. But they say eventually you would see cubes rolling off the lines with heavy armor and stronger shields and stronger....

Yea, they just don't seem to get it. Even if the Borg were to assimilate the most brilliant engineer of the Empire, they would still have to confront the issue of replicating Imperial powerplants and weapons, which are both clearly far more advanced than their own equivalents.

It's analogous to giving a Roman praefectus fabrum the schematics of the U.S. space shuttle. He may be able to understand what it can do in theory, but he will neither understand the vast majority of its workings nor have the capability to build one due to the constraints of the technology which he finds available to him.

Now the actual topic:

Anyway, a pro-wars debator said that the Cube first encountered by the ENT-D was actually superior to the ones seen in Voyager, even the ones with the armor plating. Is that true? Is there a source or link that can confirm this?

I don't know about the cube in Q Who? but the one in BoBW certainly should superiority over its VOY 'brethren.'

Considering that the Cube in BoBW managed to drain the Ent-D's shields in roughly forty-seven seconds and then had it completely at its mercy (the Ent-D hid itself in a nebula thereafter), the idea seems justified. Later in the episode, the cube went on to trash forty Federation ships at Wolf 359 rather easily, as can be seen here from 7:46 onwards, and here.


Now compare that with the VOY tactical cube which had difficulty in destroying Voyager, let alone forty Fed ships. Voyager even managed to cause the cube's shields to fluctuate.

[The Romulan Republic]

I don't know about the cube in Q Who? but the one in BoBW certainly should superiority over its VOY 'brethren.'

Considering that the Cube in BoBW managed to drain the Ent-D's shields in roughly forty-seven seconds and then had it completely at its mercy (the Ent-D hid itself in a nebula thereafter), the idea seems justified. Later in the episode, the cube went on to trash forty Federation ships at Wolf 359 rather easily, as can be seen here from 7:46 onwards, and here.


Now compare that with the VOY tactical cube which had difficulty in destroying Voyager, let alone forty Fed ships. Voyager even managed to cause the cube's shields to fluctuate.

Is that because the Tactical Cube was weaker, or because Voyager-era Federation ships were better? I mean, after Wolf 359 the Federation began remilitarizing. And there is reason to believe that Voyager is technologically superior to the Enterprise D. Isn't it supposed to have been one of the fastest Starfleet ships? And compare the pounding Voyager survived in Year of Hell, for example, to the notorious ease with which the Enterprise D suffered warp core breaches.

Then there's the fact that Voyager also had various pieces of tech which they captured in the Delta Quadrant, and at least one former Borg drone to provide them with intel on the Borg. While at Wolf 359 the Borg had Picard's knowledge to help them.

Now, its possible that the Tactical Cube was weaker. But its not the only possible explanation.

[Lord Revan]

don't know about the cube in Q Who? but the one in BoBW certainly should superiority over its VOY 'brethren.'

Considering that the Cube in BoBW managed to drain the Ent-D's shields in roughly forty-seven seconds and then had it completely at its mercy (the Ent-D hid itself in a nebula thereafter), the idea seems justified. Later in the episode, the cube went on to trash forty Federation ships at Wolf 359 rather easily, as can be seen here from 7:46 onwards, and here.


Now compare that with the VOY tactical cube which had difficulty in destroying Voyager, let alone forty Fed ships. Voyager even managed to cause the cube's shields to fluctuate.

this could also be interpetaged as federation ships as addapting to borg weapons (so the cube isn't weaker per se but the federation ships are more resilient to it's attacks), also the 39 ships lost at Wolf 359 did seem like experimental or just plain old outdated ships thrown together as a fleet due to the haste then an "elite" strike force containing the best possible ships avaible for the federation.

[Boeing 757]

I don't know about the cube in Q Who? but the one in BoBW certainly should superiority over its VOY 'brethren.'

Considering that the Cube in BoBW managed to drain the Ent-D's shields in roughly forty-seven seconds and then had it completely at its mercy (the Ent-D hid itself in a nebula thereafter), the idea seems justified. Later in the episode, the cube went on to trash forty Federation ships at Wolf 359 rather easily, as can be seen here from 7:46 onwards, and here.


Now compare that with the VOY tactical cube which had difficulty in destroying Voyager, let alone forty Fed ships. Voyager even managed to cause the cube's shields to fluctuate.

Is that because the Tactical Cube was weaker, or because Voyager-era Federation ships were better? I mean, after Wolf 359 the Federation began remilitarizing.

My guess is that the tactical cube is weaker. Consider: Voyager became stranded in the Delta Quadrant in 2371. However, an other cube invades the Federation in 2373 and is still able to pound the merry hell out of a Federation fleet, after having engaged it several hours prior. Even an Akira-class ship is no match for that cube, and an Akira is an actual battleship unlike Voyager.

And there is reason to believe that Voyager is technologically superior to the Enterprise D. Isn't it supposed to have been one of the fastest Starfleet ships?

Yes, that's correct. She's faster at warp, has a more efficient computer system and probably other things that I'm forgetting at the moment.
Nevertheless, her phaser arrays are smaller than the Ent-D's, and AFAIK there isn't much that indicates Voyager's photon torpedoes are that much stronger,s o I don't see Voyager's weapons being an order of magnitude stronger than the Enterprise-D's.

Any way, I don't think that it matters much how much more advanced Voyager is over the Ent-D, because a cube of the same historical period pulled off an other Wolf 359 in First Contact.

And compare the pounding Voyager survived in Year of Hell, for example, to the notorious ease with which the Enterprise D suffered warp core breaches.

Granted that Voyager took a beating, but were the Krenim so strong? A lot of the damage that they did to Voyager came from the fact that their torpedoes could bypass her shields as if they weren't there.

Then there's the fact that Voyager also had various pieces of tech which they captured in the Delta Quadrant, and at least one former Borg drone to provide them with intel on the Borg. While at Wolf 359 the Borg had Picard's knowledge to help them.

Good point. Seven has in deed been of much use against the Borg in the past.

Now, its possible that the Tactical Cube was weaker. But its not the only possible explanation.

I'd still say that it seemed weaker--even with the remilitarized refits. Perhaps the tactical cube isn't meant to go one-on-one with enemy fleets like the standard assimilation cube can. That shouldn't be too much of a stretch since we've seen Borg vessels of different shapes and sizes.

[Boeing 757]

don't know about the cube in Q Who? but the one in BoBW certainly should superiority over its VOY 'brethren.'

Considering that the Cube in BoBW managed to drain the Ent-D's shields in roughly forty-seven seconds and then had it completely at its mercy (the Ent-D hid itself in a nebula thereafter), the idea seems justified. Later in the episode, the cube went on to trash forty Federation ships at Wolf 359 rather easily, as can be seen here from 7:46 onwards, and here.


Now compare that with the VOY tactical cube which had difficulty in destroying Voyager, let alone forty Fed ships. Voyager even managed to cause the cube's shields to fluctuate.

this could also be interpetaged as federation ships as addapting to borg weapons (so the cube isn't weaker per se but the federation ships are more resilient to it's attacks), also the 39 ships lost at Wolf 359 did seem like experimental or just plain old outdated ships thrown together as a fleet due to the haste then an "elite" strike force containing the best possible ships avaible for the federation.

Perhaps the ones at Wolf 359 were old, but the ships that fought the cube in First Contact were new and probably the best of the fleet, and some of them (like the Akira) could outright destroy Voyager in a heartbeat. They still were being destroyed by the cube left and right.

[seanrobertson]

My guess is that the tactical cube is weaker. Consider: Voyager became stranded in the Delta Quadrant in 2371. However, an other cube invades the Federation in 2373 and is still able to pound the merry hell out of a Federation fleet, after having engaged it several hours prior. Even an Akira-class ship is no match for that cube, and an Akira is an actual battleship unlike Voyager.

Agreed. I've long considered a couple of possibilities to that end ...

1 -- We know that the Tactical Cube had destroyed an asteroid-based colony/starbase/something well before its fight with VGR. Perhaps that starbase/whatever managed to damage the cube somehow, reducing its combat effectiveness.

2 -- That particular cube seemed to have more weapon ports than standard cubes. Maybe a "type 4 tactical vessel" is geared toward fighting large numbers of small ships.

Yes, that's correct. She's faster at warp, has a more efficient computer system and probably other things that I'm forgetting at the moment.
Nevertheless, her phaser arrays are smaller than the Ent-D's, and AFAIK there isn't much that indicates Voyager's photon torpedoes are that much stronger,s o I don't see Voyager's weapons being an order of magnitude stronger than the Enterprise-D's.

Yeah. I suspect VGR's type VI torpedoes are the same ones Worf was excited about in "Genesis," which only had an 11% greater yield. Even if most of the E-D's photorp complement were of the older type, she'd still easily outgun the Voyager.

*snip*

In any case, BlackSun2000:

If I were you (or the pro-Wars fellow you mentioned), I'd avoid getting bogged down by minutiae like "the TNG cube was more powerful" and such things. Those are distractions, side-issues impertinent to the contest at hand; heavy turbolasers will blow any kind of cube away with single shots. Keep the focus on that.

Also, even though it sounds like the debate's winding down, I always found it wise to be generous with the other side. If they want to use the TNG TM and claim photorps are 64 megatons, fine, then -- let 'em have it. If they claim the deflector beam in "Best of Both Worlds" was more powerful than all of the Enterprise's torpedoes*, let 'em have that, too, even if it means the cube's shields would be able to handle 8 gigatons. That's still nothing next to a heavy turbolaser shot

(*Of the deflector blast, LaForge said it would discharge "more power than our phasers and photon torpedoes could ever provide." I seriously doubt he meant it was the equivalent of 250 photorps, but that's what I mean about being generous: if you set the bar high enough for them, they won't have the chance to bicker over the numbers.)

[takemeout_totheblack]

Where is this debate taking place, what site?

[DrStrangelove]

Where is this debate taking place, what site?

If I was to hazard a guess either Sciforums, the Trek.com forums, FactPile or YouTube, most likely

[lordofchange13]

from visiol effects the voyager cubes were babys compared to the ones from TNG, though i don't understand why, dos not technology usely git better not the other way around?

[Rossum]

Yea, they just don't seem to get it. Even if the Borg were to assimilate the most brilliant engineer of the Empire, they would still have to confront the issue of replicating Imperial powerplants and weapons, which are both clearly far more advanced than their own equivalents.

It's analogous to giving a Roman praefectus fabrum the schematics of the U.S. space shuttle. He may be able to understand what it can do in theory, but he will neither understand the vast majority of its workings nor have the capability to build one due to the constraints of the technology which he finds available to him.

Okay, I'm curious how people keep saying that the Borg couldn't assimilate Star Wars technology due to Star Wars tech being more advanced than their own. The Borg assimilate people and can take over ships or planets or places with industry (assuming they can hold onto it militarily or don't damage the equipment in it). I doubt Palpatine knows exactly how the Death Star works and he was able to use it to blow up planets just fine.

I will grant you that Borg replicator technology may not be able to just scan a blaster and create a copy of it... if only because there are materials in the Star Trek universe that replicators can't copy and the gas that blasters use might be one of them. Hypermatter sounds like another thing that replicators couldn't copy. Heck, there might even be vital components used in Star Wars tech that need tools to make that the Borg don't have (okay, the Borg have nanotech, transporters, and replicator technology and I can't really imagine there being much you can't build with stuff like that) but the fact is that there are people in the Star Wars universe who have the tools to make Star Wars tech.

If the Borg can survive long enough to get into a weapons shop and get ahold of a bunch of blasters then suddenly they have a bunch of blasters (the Borg did use ranged weapons in The Next Generation... but that was before Voyager and they got those assimilation tubes that they stuck with). If they can find out who makes the blasters they can go to the factory and assimilate the people who work there. Once the have a factory and the workers tell them how the blasters are made then they can make their own using the tools at the factory and using their own technology (even if a blaster uses components or ammo that can't be replicated then the replicators should be able to make a good portion of the other parts).

The only thing the Borg should need to get access to Star Wars tech would be:

1). An engineer who knows how the technology work. They can assimilate him to get the info out of his head or just make him loyal enough to tell them what they need.

2). Tools to manufacture the technology. They already have nanotech, replicators, and transporters which should give them options for aiding production or getting the tools. If they find a factory that makes the stuff and assimilate it then they get the tools and workers in one go.

3). Resources to make it. There may be materials that their replicators cannot synthesize but there are sources of it in the Star Wars galaxy and its just a matter of stealing it or making it themselves.

4). The skills to use the technology. Astromech droids can plot routes through hyperspace, it should be fairly easy to figure out how a blaster works, operating droids should be easy if the droids choose to obey.

5). If all else fails, steal something. If the Borg can beam into a weapons shop and make off with some blasters then they get weapons. If they can beam into a hyperdrive capable ship and assimilate the occupants then congratulations they've got a hyperdrive capable ship.

In First Contact the Borg were able to beam into the Enterprise and start taking over parts of the ship and leaving their trademark green fog and exposed cables and stuff all over the place. The stupid fog and cables are... stupid but I guess it means they can use their nanotech and replicator stuff to make Borg equipment. If the Borg can beam onto a wandering freighter or something and assimilate the crew then they could Borgify parts of the ship to presumably give themselves transporter capability. With transporters then stealing stuff should be easier for them and give them an option to aquire resources in limited quantity. They aren't going to be a major threat... at most something like pirates in some backwater sector until they can get the resources they need for mass production.


But, the Borg should be able to assimilate Star Wars tech because the can assimilate the people who understand Star Wars tech and if they play their cards right then they should be able to get the tools needed to make that technology. It won't be intantaneous but I don't see anything that would realistically prohibit Borg from getting access to Star Wars tech if they have enough time to get ahold of the information, facilities and materials to make and use the stuff.

[Batman]

Except that's not how Borg assimilation works. They DON'T go around assimilating people who understand part of the tech base they want, and go on doing so until they have assimilated enough to know all of the tech base they want (which even for modern day Earth is a hell of a lot), and THEN step by step assimilate manufacturing capabilities so they can actually BUILD that technology. They go in, announce their intent, and start assimilating. They get away with it in Trek because everybody else has a lower tech base than them anyway for the most part and nobody can do anything about it. Won't work against Wars because a measly corvette can casually instakill a Cube. IF they worked at it subtly and IF they got access to enough of the Wars knowledgebase and IF they somehow get access to/built on their own Wars level equipment, yeah, they probably could. Except that's not how the Borg work. It's 'resitance is futile' speech, which in the case of Wars is going to result in a 'Sucks to be you then' and a turbolaser to the face.

[Rossum]

Except that's not how Borg assimilation works. They DON'T go around assimilating people who understand part of the tech base they want, and go on doing so until they have assimilated enough to know all of the tech base they want (which even for modern day Earth is a hell of a lot), and THEN step by step assimilate manufacturing capabilities so they can actually BUILD that technology. They go in, announce their intent, and start assimilating. They get away with it in Trek because everybody else has a lower tech base than them anyway for the most part and nobody can do anything about it. Won't work against Wars because a measly corvette can casually instakill a Cube. IF they worked at it subtly and IF they got access to enough of the Wars knowledgebase and IF they somehow get access to/built on their own Wars level equipment, yeah, they probably could. Except that's not how the Borg work. It's 'resitance is futile' speech, which in the case of Wars is going to result in a 'Sucks to be you then' and a turbolaser to the face.

To give the Borg some credit, their first appearance in Next Generation had them scanning the Enterprise, sending in drones, then cutting out hull sections of the Enterprise to better examine its composition. After Enterprise fled then they had cubes ripping colonies out of the ground and presumably examining them before they assimilated Picard and tried taking over the Earth. Even then, their plan seemed to be to destroy all the Starfleet ships they ran into and then conquer Earth and enslave/assimilate its population.

They didn't start sprouting assimilation nanotubes until Voyager and by then the Borg had already scanned enough Federation technology to have a good idea what was there. The fact that starfleet ships seem to have one centralized computer with crummy security that hold all sorts of information ranging from technology, to replicator patterns, to cultural files probably make assimilation much easier for the Borg.


In the Borgs first appearance they waited until after they did some scans before they started firing on the Enterprise. Do you think the Borg would instantly pick a fight with an unknown ship, in an unknown galaxy, in an unknown universe if they had no data on what capabilities their opponent had? They could get away antisocial behavior in the Trek universe because their first contact with the federation consisted of them scanning it and examining its occupants before they threw any punches. It was after they knew they could outrun and outgun federation ships that they started yelling "resistance is futile" and stole peoples colonies.


But then again, they did act like a bunch of retards in the Voyager series. Their reaction to the Species 8472 biowank monsters was pretty sad. Granted the 8472s did have the ability to blow up entire planets (through whatever method it is that they used) and they did hail from some horrible otherworldly dimension. Borg stupidity was the main problem in that case because apparently borg did have weapons that could destroy 8472 ships but they kept trying to get their nanoprobes into them to see what made the biowank tick. To risk trying to excuse Borg stupidity in this case, I think the Borg Queen was ordering her minons to try and assimilate 8472 biowank so that they could blow up planets or do whatever it is that they would need with it. Assimilating biowank would be much more difficult than traditional technology since they couldn't just assimilate experts or factories or resources to add it to their own.

Regardless, the fact remains that the Borg have demonstrated before that they can strategically assimilate experts (like Picard) or take infrastructure to examine it (those colonies they ripped out of the ground) so they don't exclusively rely on jabbing stuff with their nanotubes. They also demonstrated that they don't always rush into battles without gathering intel first. The Borg can act intelligent... as long as their writers let them.

[Imperial528]

Well, one problem with the borg creating SW-quality ships (or even assimilating one) is that the materials in SW are vastly stronger and more advanced than materials the borg use. For example, durasteel. According to wookiepedia, it is an alloy of four other metals, one of which is neutronium. To this date, I haven't seen a single borg ship that is mentioned to have components made of neutronium, or the ability to refine or otherwise create usable neutronium. I don't think it would be too much of a stretch to assume that a turbolaser made out of the hardest steel alloy would fail where as a durasteel turret would function perfectly, especially given the firepower levels seen in SW.

I also have never seen in any ST episode the borg possessing any materials with the properties of plastoid, which is a wonder in itself.

I would laugh if the borg ever tried to power a cube with hypermatter. It'd be like a self-fulfilling warp core breach.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Bah. The cubes in TNg where more powerful because the writers made them. End of.

ENT-D had the rest of the federation to call on for aid (not that it did them any good), so the cubes could be uber-powerful.

VGR was all on it's little pathetic ownsome, with no resupply or reinforcements. So ofc the writers have to make the cubes less deadly or else having VGR win all the time would be even more unbelieveable than it already is.

Oh, and as for an earlier point, as we saw in one of Sisko's flashbacks, the Feds at Wolf 359 fought like total morons, IIRC they went in one or two at a time to attack. First Contact feddies where a bit more skilled but still were losing until ENT-E arrived

[Batman]

Another 'Writer's intent' moron. Here's a hint-writer's intent DOESN'T MATTER. WHY they made the Borg weak (or not) on screen doesn't MATTER, what we see is what we get.
And the big E did NOT have all of Starfleet on call, at least not in time to matter. If she COULD call on rapid reinforcements why the desperate gamble with the deflector dish of doom in BoBW Pt1?