One person, One ship, One galaxy. Challenge

[Serafina]

If we're going to go that route then we simply cannot have any meaningful comparison of the universes and the entire discussion is moot.

The entire premise of my argument is based on real world analytical techniques and methods... based on 20th century science. 400 years from now who knows what technology I would have at my disposal.

Umm...why?
Seriously, why? All that has been said is that Replicators are NOT a no-limits technology. We know they have many limitations, and even if they did not, it would be stupid to assume that they can create an alloy that is hundreds or thousands of years ahead of their science, without ANY knowledge how it was made (at what temperatures, with how much pressure etc.).
How does that invalidate a meaningfull comparision of SW and ST?

That's why I default to my understandings of science and engineering and extrapolate forward 400 years.

Hm...smells odd...similar to crap.
How the hell can you "extrapolate your knowledge of science and engineering forward 400 years"?
By the way, you can not just contradict canon with your extrapolation -stop playing make-believe.

In the end it comes down to this simple choice: Which universe do you like better? In this situation... I am stating that it is possible to use Star Trek technology to duplicate Star Wars technology 1:1 allowing you to conquer the universe.

Huh, whad'ya know, make-believe again.

Now... on the flip side... If I took a Galaxy Class starship into the Star Wars universe problems would arise as soon as the first battle is over: Where do I get more antimatter? Law of diminishing returns tells me that while I can generate some onboard, my generator will fail long before I manufacture enough to make a difference. Star Wars technology could build me a replacement warp core to replace the one I had to eject due to damage... and I could make a new crystal for the core or use a spare... but the problem of how would I acquire it when I have no money or means of exchange?

"Law of dimishing returns"?
You KNOW that antimatter is a FUEL, not an ENERGY SOURCE, right?
If they could use their onboard-reactor to produce more antimatter, they would LOOSE energy.

[100 Ton]

Tech manual states they have an onboard emergency antimatter generator that uses some kind of quantum-spin-state reversal crap to turn matter into antimatter but it is such an energy intensive process it would yield only a tiny amount of usable antimatter in any given situation.

As for alloys and metals and stuff like that... Metals and crystals and even polymers behave according to certain predictable rules and laws. I look at a sample of ghu'lak metal from Nerdover IV with my equipment and realize it's nothing more than an iron-ceramic mixture. Duplicating the ceramic material might be problimatic as I don't have that exact isotope of silicon or that exact mixture of organic/semi-organic impurities that give it is unique properties on file. That would require a bit of science to duplicate. This would take time, but in the end... success is assured. Replicators as written can manipulate matter at the quantum level, therefore with enough time and effort anything can be duplicated. Oh yeah and energy.

Now as for the no limits argument... Never said there were no limits. You don't see me pushing a button and materializing an entire turbolaser turret in one cycle. That's utter bullshit right there... I refuse to believe that would be possible. Instead I argue that you need to take apart an existing unit and reverse engineer it over a period of time. THEN you replicate the parts and assemble it.

[Batman]

Tech manual states they have an onboard emergency antimatter generator that uses some kind of quantum-spin-state reversal crap to turn matter into antimatter but it is such an energy intensive process it would yield only a tiny amount of usable antimatter in any given situation.

I.e. it is a net energy LOSS to produce antimatter onboard, not that the TM is of any relevance.

Replicators as written can manipulate matter at the quantum level, therefore with enough time and effort anything can be duplicated. Oh yeah and energy.

Where exactly IS that written, pray tell? Especially as we have CANON STATEMENTS saying that NO, certain things can NOT be replicated, including a certain kind of rain water, and even simple things like foodstuffs apparently cannot be replicated perfectly.

Now as for the no limits argument... Never said there were no limits. You don't see me pushing a button and materializing an entire turbolaser turret in one cycle. That's utter bullshit right there... I refuse to believe that would be possible. Instead I argue that you need to take apart an existing unit and reverse engineer it over a period of time. THEN you replicate the parts and assemble it.

You're the Victorian Era Royal Navy. Reverse engineer a Trafalgar.

[100 Ton]

You'd be surprised what a classical engineer can accomplish.

Deprive a modern engineer of his CAD programs and instant access to the accumulated technical libraries of the world (internet) you end up with someone no better than a mere apprentice. I include myself in this assessment. Classical engineer had to know everything and be able to recall it on demand. This includes some very complex mathematical reasoning.

The basis of the argument seems to based on an emotional preference for one universe over the other. Everything I have mentioned on here either comes from the semi-canon manuals, novels, shows or movies... yet you keep bringing up one incident, involving rain-water. You equate replicating complex biological structures and animating them with a direct quantum-level copy of a metallic lattice.


Even more hysterical here is I am supporting the Star Wars universe and how it would be possible to carry out the conquest of Star Trek... yet you are telling me my proposed methodology is unsound because I use Star Trek technology and you cite RAINWATER as the basis of your argument.

More or less at this point it boils down to "My fanwanky crossover story is more valid than your fanwanky crossover story LOLOLOLOLOLARRRHROTFL."

Please continue though, I am enjoying this immensely. Glad I found this site, haven't had this much fun online in awhile.

[bilateralrope]

The main site has a list of things that replicators can't produce. Have a read through it and note the examples of Federation technology that the Federation can't replicate.

[100 Ton]

The main site has a list of things that replicators can't produce. Have a read through it and note the examples of Federation technology that the Federation can't replicate.

Thank you for the link. I had this iawhile back, I forgot where it came from.

Everything on there would have unbalanced the plot or killed the story though. A true quantum scan-and-replicate device unbound by plot dictates would be able to produce anything you scan. So now that you have this device suddenly the economy as we know it is useless so we invent a substance that is valuable that can't be replicated. Oh ouch my arm fell off so I replicate a new one... Wait that means I can't tell a story about someone with a bum leg... so we introduce the biological limitations... On and on.

There in lies the rub, folks. Star Trek cripples itself for the sake of storytelling. Looking at the technology unbound by the dictates of the story, you open yourself up to other storytelling possibility. That is where Star Wars captivates my imagination. The Star Wars Universe is without storytelling limits, the Vong arc proved that.

And in the end, I choose to ignore some of the limitations imposed by "bad" storytelling so I can tell MY story.

[Serafina]

You're the Victorian Era Royal Navy. Reverse engineer a Trafalgar.

Make that an CVN - the tech gap between SW and ST is way to big.

You'd be surprised what a classical engineer can accomplish.

Deprive a modern engineer of his CAD programs and instant access to the accumulated technical libraries of the world (internet) you end up with someone no better than a mere apprentice. I include myself in this assessment. Classical engineer had to know everything and be able to recall it on demand. This includes some very complex mathematical reasoning.

Yeah, right, because they totally had no collection of mathematical formuale or blueprints for their constructions back then

The basis of the argument seems to based on an emotional preference for one universe over the other. Everything I have mentioned on here either comes from the semi-canon manuals, novels, shows or movies... yet you keep bringing up one incident, involving rain-water. You equate replicating complex biological structures and animating them with a direct quantum-level copy of a metallic lattice.

No, this is NOT emotional.

Look, we are not arguing about two universes that are even near the same level of technology. Nearly everything in SW is clearly orders of magnitues more powerfull than comparable ST-technology. This can clearly be measured from the visuals (if you see an explosion, you can make a rough calculation about it's power).
Retro-engineering with such a difference in power is not hard, it's virtually impossible.

But hey, let's make an experiment, inspired by your statement above.
Suppose i give you a piece of modern military technology - say, an Type 212 submarine. You get a dozen wholly intact, fresh-out of the dock ones.
Now your job is to build another one.
You get all the material and assistance you want, but absolutely no original information about the sub - no blueprints, no list of materials, not what type of steel was used, no nothing.

How long do you think that will take? Remember, this is something which is NOT millenia ahead of the technology you are familiar with

We have NO instance where ST-transporter/replicator technology allowed them to miracolously understand unknown technology. Otherwise, they would already have borg personal shields and nanoprobes, transwarpd-drives etc. pp.
Yet, that is clearly not the case.

Even more hysterical here is I am supporting the Star Wars universe and how it would be possible to carry out the conquest of Star Trek... yet you are telling me my proposed methodology is unsound because I use Star Trek technology and you cite RAINWATER as the basis of your argument.

Look, ingi-boy, i don't care which side you are on - your argument is WRONG. Replicators are simply not used that way.
They are a nice convencience item and potentially usefull for storing food and certain types of equipment on long journeys.
But they are NOT used to replicate foreign technology, or even items of any size larger than a handheld item.

There in lies the rub, folks. Star Trek cripples itself for the sake of storytelling. Looking at the technology unbound by the dictates of the story, you open yourself up to other storytelling possibility. That is where Star Wars captivates my imagination. The Star Wars Universe is without storytelling limits, the Vong arc proved that.

Yeah, it doesn't matter WHY the writers did it.
For our purpose, there ARE no writers - we are analyzing it as if it were historical documents. Or are you assuming that the germans crippled themself due to writers fiat in WWII, too?
So you are stuck with what the canon gives you. If you want to write a STORY where it is different - do so.
But don't use your make-believe as if it was a fact.

[Ghost Rider]

You'd be surprised what a classical engineer can accomplish.

Deprive a modern engineer of his CAD programs and instant access to the accumulated technical libraries of the world (internet) you end up with someone no better than a mere apprentice. I include myself in this assessment. Classical engineer had to know everything and be able to recall it on demand. This includes some very complex mathematical reasoning.

Which is a bit of hyperbole. My own field has people claim they need to recall facts on material as far back of 20+ years and all the codes associated if not further and all the strange connotations. But do they really? No, because human memory has certain lacking and thus they keep all the material as reference guides. Said engineer may think he/she does, but has a huge amount of reference material on hand.

The basis of the argument seems to based on an emotional preference for one universe over the other. Everything I have mentioned on here either comes from the semi-canon manuals, novels, shows or movies... yet you keep bringing up one incident, involving rain-water. You equate replicating complex biological structures and animating them with a direct quantum-level copy of a metallic lattice.

Except that is the point. They cannot replicate a particular world's rain water? This speaks of certain limitations of the machines designs. The fact they comment on other things the replicator cannot do, and then add the facts that we are talking of a civilization with magnitude of order higher production and power generation?

Even more hysterical here is I am supporting the Star Wars universe and how it would be possible to carry out the conquest of Star Trek... yet you are telling me my proposed methodology is unsound because I use Star Trek technology and you cite RAINWATER as the basis of your argument.

More or less at this point it boils down to "My fanwanky crossover story is more valid than your fanwanky crossover story LOLOLOLOLOLARRRHROTFL."

Please continue though, I am enjoying this immensely. Glad I found this site, haven't had this much fun online in awhile.

Which is the problem of Trek vs Wars. Trek has virtually no way of duplicating much of Wars tech because the gulf is larger then duplicating a 2010 car with 1500's technology.

[100 Ton]

No, this is NOT emotional.

Look, we are not arguing about two universes that are even near the same level of technology. Nearly everything in SW is clearly orders of magnitues more powerfull than comparable ST-technology.

Sounds emotional to me.

But hey, let's make an experiment, inspired by your statement above.
Suppose i give you a piece of modern military technology - say, an Type 212 submarine. You get a dozen wholly intact, fresh-out of the dock ones.
Now your job is to build another one.
You get all the material and assistance you want, but absolutely no original information about the sub - no blueprints, no list of materials, not what type of steel was used, no nothing.

How long do you think that will take? Remember, this is something which is NOT millenia ahead of the technology you are familiar with.

That's an easy one. With the equipment I have access to where I work and with the assistance of Nudd Fabrication across town we could reverse engineer this in about six months, fabricate and assemble another one in six to nine months, debug it and begin mass production. *shrug* And that's without access to 10 X 9.999 to the 99th power trillion-gigawatts at my disposal.

For our purpose, there ARE no writers - we are analyzing it as if it were historical documents. Or are you assuming that the germans crippled themself due to writers fiat in WWII, too?
So you are stuck with what the canon gives you. If you want to write a STORY where it is different - do so.

Ok so you want to accept make-believe as fact...

But don't use your make-believe as if it was a fact.

...then step on your own foot?


This is dangerously close to "flamewar-over-bullshit" territory folks. I stated how I would make my interpretation of a fictional universe kick the ass of a second equally fictional universe, yet I am told my imagination is wrong and you can prove it.... yet you can't prove it because in the end it's ALL make-believe and all you can do is shout louder and louder "YOU ARE WRONG."

Suggestion: Cool it for awhile then come back and lets get on with the original topic... the conquest of the Star Trek universe.

Of course this is how Star Trek ends up defeating all of us... We're too busy arguing which brand of Ranch Dressing is the ONE TRUE Ranch Dressing while they sit back and slather everything with *shudder* Thousand Island.

[Batman]

You'd be surprised what a classical engineer can accomplish.

As I'm not an engineer myself, indubitably. You have yet to show they COULD accomplish what I tasked them with.

Deprive a modern engineer of his CAD programs and instant access to the accumulated technical libraries of the world (internet) you end up with someone no better than a mere apprentice. I include myself in this assessment. Classical engineer had to know everything and be able to recall it on demand.This includes some very complex mathematical reasoning.

It did by definition NOT include information they simply didn't HAVE at the time. Like pretty much ANYTHING about electronics or nuclear power.

The basis of the argument seems to based on an emotional preference for one universe over the other.

No, the basis of the argument is canon fact.

Everything I have mentioned on here either comes from the semi-canon manuals, novels,

There's no such thing for Trek. TV shows and movies ONLY, as per Paramount. You feel that's unfair, take it up with THEM.

shows or movies... yet you keep bringing up one incident, involving rain-water.

WHICH THEY COULD NOT REPLICATE. I'm still waiting for ANY (nevermind CANON) evidence for quantum level resolution replicators.

You equate replicating complex biological structures and animating them with a direct quantum-level copy of a metallic lattice.

If it WERE a quantum-level copy the difference wouldn't MATTER. I'm no scientist but I'm reasonably certain the higher complexity of biological structures doesn't figure into it before the MOLECULAR level.

Even more hysterical here is I am supporting the Star Wars universe and how it would be possible to carry out the conquest of Star Trek... yet you are telling me my proposed methodology is unsound because I use Star Trek technology

To do stuff it has never done

and you cite RAINWATER as the basis of your argument.

Which the technology you assume to be able to replicate EVERYTHING...can't replicate.
You're the Victorian Era Royal Navy. Reverse engineer a Trafalgar.

Make that an CVN - the tech gap between SW and ST is way to big.

CVNs actually PREDATE the Trafalgars by two decades Besides, if I wanted an even moderately ACCURATE comparison I would've had him have CAVEMEN reverse engineer them

[Batman]

No, this is NOT emotional.
Look, we are not arguing about two universes that are even near the same level of technology. Nearly everything in SW is clearly orders of magnitues more powerfull than comparable ST-technology.

Sounds emotional to me.

Just for the record, you DO understand the concept of MATH, right? Like when one action A results in 100 x, and action B results in 100,000 x, action B IS orders of magnitude greater than action A?

For our purpose, there ARE no writers - we are analyzing it as if it were historical documents. Or are you assuming that the germans crippled themself due to writers fiat in WWII, too?
So you are stuck with what the canon gives you. If you want to write a STORY where it is different - do so.

Ok so you want to accept make-believe as fact...

*hits 100 Ton Moron with the SoD club* Yes, moron?

But don't use your make-believe as if it was a fact.

...then step on your own foot?

WE are using CANON make-believe. Which is sort of inevitable what with debating FICTION. YOU are using stuff YOU made up and/or gleaned from sources that are NOT part of the in-universe 'reality' (and never even bothered to provide a source for, while we're at it, you blithely required us to accept them).

This is dangerously close to "flamewar-over-bullshit" territory folks. I stated how I would make my interpretation of a fictional universe kick the ass of a second equally fictional universe, yet I am told my imagination is wrong and you can prove it

Which we can and have. Because, you see, you do NOT get to reinvent a fictional universe any way you want to just because it's fictional. It's an ESTABLISHED fictional universe and you stay within the confines of what HAS been established. You want to do your own version of Star Trek, we've got a section for that. You want to DEBATE your version of Star Trek, we have a section for that too. IN HERE however it's CANON Star Trek vs CANON Star Wars.

.... yet you can't prove it

We already did.

Suggestion: Cool it for awhile then come back and lets get on with the original topic... the conquest of the Star Trek universe.

WE're not the ones getting upset here you know

[100 Ton]

I am not getting upset here, and I'm not the one who resorted to name-calling. Really, third-grade debate tactics do nothing to support your argument OR influence my opinion.

Lets agree to disagree here and get back to the original discussion.... or can we not do that?

[Teleros]

No, this is NOT emotional.

Look, we are not arguing about two universes that are even near the same level of technology. Nearly everything in SW is clearly orders of magnitues more powerfull than comparable ST-technology.

Sounds emotional to me.

No actually. The work's been done to death years ago, and a lot of it is on the main page... but in short, if you look at ST v SW from a purely technical / scientific standpoint (ie, no author's intent or literary criticism), which is what we like to do here at SDN, then SW objectively is far superior. In your defence, it sounds like you know the settings, but not to the level of detail required for an accurate debate over the technical aspects. Like with replicators - although it may at first seem like they are "plans + raw materials = whatever you want", there are in fact clear limitations noted in various episodes (gold-pressed latinum being a case in point). Or the Borg - there are clearly limits to what they can assimilate - aside from Species 8472's funky biology, simple physics will result in limitations (eg the momentum difference in blocking a 1kg object going at 10m/s vs a 100kg one going at 10km/s).



As to the original topic... any comments on my plan of conquest? I know it's rough, but still. Anyone?

[SapphireFox]

Well... first off, I'm not too sure what the best droids to use for the ship's crew are, but I'd want a competent bunch, not those retarded regular battle droids. The droid army should I think consist of a handful of Grievous' droid guards for personal protection, but in bulk be made up of SBDs, with some (although not much - this is the ST-verse we're going to conquer) armour, fighter craft, transports and such.

Dig through Wookipedia under battledroids and you might find a mix you like. Personally I would prefer 5 to 10 percent to be commando droids in my army for there effectiveness and intelligence compared to normal troops. You might want to have a little more armor just to take out mass quantities of infantry IE "redshirts".

First order of business once in the ST galaxy is to get some proper mapping done for rapid hyperspace travel. Safe & quick routes to the major Alpha Quadrant powers (once I find them ) are a must, as is a route to the Delta Quadrant so I can give the Borg etc a thorough kicking.

Agreed, probe droids would be a very useful resource at this point in the campaign. Mapping will be the biggest hurdle in slowing down the effectiveness of your ships until you either A: map it yourself. B: buy star maps from the locals. or C: take the maps from your defeated enemies computers.

Once that's done, I think I'll follow through with my idea above & capture a Borg cube with my army, which shouldn't be too hard, given that blasters > space zombies, and I'll know about blocking transporters etc too. Use whatever data is on board to hunt down and smash the rest of the Borg Collective in fairly short order, then head to the UFP.

I would recommend flechette weaponryhttp://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Flechette_launcher and vibroswords for dealing with the space zombies borg drones. There shield adaption ability doesn't work against overwhelming power but on a person scale regular blasters might not be overwhelming enough. The easy fix is to not use an energy weapon and flechette weapons are capable of dealing with personal armor so they would work especially effectively in the enclosed corridors like an anti-armor super shotgun. Anti-vehicle flechette weapons could be used to make corridor clearing clouds of metal death.

When arriving in the Alpha Quadrant, I'll be sure to travel with my newly captured Borg Cube, and proceed slowly into UFP space, being all friendly and nice to the natives. When at Earth, I'll drop off the Cube as a present to the UFP and to show I mean serious business - and at the same time declare myself Emperor or somesuch. Hopefully demonstrations of overwhelming firepower won't be needed too much, because I much prefer the idea of enlightened despotism. "Safe" tech transfers to the locals can follow (eg bacta or superior SW, if Trek-powered, shields & weapons), and in return my subjects can begin gearing up for some hypermatter production, because all this travel won't do my supplies much good. Plus, my new Royal Starfleet will need some real engines in its ships. Simultaneously, battle droid production can begin, because even if they're the rubbish regular models, I'll need something to police my new empire with.

Somehow I don't think that it would be that easy I suspect that there would be mass unrest and revolts even with the borg trophy. Getting them as a self governing vassal would be likely easier for them to swallow. Unless you don't care then you might have to expend some of your troops and a good chunk of time to beat them into a proper conquered position.

The trouble though is that this will result merely in the military conquest of the galaxy - which whilst it would hopefully satisfy the OP, is not what I'd want to merely finish with. Military occupation of Quo'nos, Romulus & Remus etc is all very well, but like o_s said, I'd then want to see about integrating this galaxy into a single, unified political & cultural entity once I get immortality. Because damnit, if I'm going to spend a few decades building an empire, I'm going to make sure it doesn't fall apart afterwards. Let the rewriting of Klingon history commence!

Yes it would be quite unsatisfying to have it fall apart after all that effort and more likely more difficult than the conquest itself but so worth it in the end.
Exactly what would you rewrite klingon history into anyway?

[Teleros]

Dig through Wookipedia under battledroids and you might find a mix you like. Personally I would prefer 5 to 10 percent to be commando droids in my army for there effectiveness and intelligence compared to normal troops. You might want to have a little more armor just to take out mass quantities of infantry IE "redshirts".

Damnit I forgot about the commando droids - and I've seen S1 of Clone Wars too . For redshirts, meh. It doesn't seem like the Federation has much that can hurt a basic TradeFed tank that's not a starship, so I'm not too worried about that side of things. Besides which I plan to do most of the actual conquering once I've got the Federation on my side (BDZ threats & competent government will work reasonably well I hope ), so I can get the Federation to build droids out of local materials rather than lose too many of the droids I start out with.

Agreed, probe droids would be a very useful resource at this point in the campaign. Mapping will be the biggest hurdle in slowing down the effectiveness of your ships until you either A: map it yourself. B: buy star maps from the locals. or C: take the maps from your defeated enemies computers.

I was thinking of all 3, and #3 particularly once I get to Borg space early on. They likely have one hell of a nice database of freaky anomalies, star locations and such, plus hopefully info on a route to Earth. And of course there's always the Ferengi.

Having at least a few flechette weapons sounds like a good idea too. Worst case, issue them as squad special weapons to my droids when boarding Borg ships (in a more realistic scenario I wouldn't get my perfect tailor-made army anyway, and given how common blasters are...). Still, even without them I'm not sure what the Borg can do to assimilate SBDs without a few weeks / months / years to analyse their design, so taking over a Borg cube even with regular droids should be okay.

Somehow I don't think that it would be that easy I suspect that there would be mass unrest and revolts even with the borg trophy. Getting them as a self governing vassal would be likely easier for them to swallow. Unless you don't care then you might have to expend some of your troops and a good chunk of time to beat them into a proper conquered position.

PR-wise I'd talk about setting up a constitutional monarchy* in place of the UFP, although in practice I'd retain most of the power and use the existing institutions (the vassal state may work too), at least until it's mission accomplished and I can settle down into sorting out a system that'll survive the next million years or so . The key will be controlling the major industrial and political locations - with hyperdrive & proper maps though this shouldn't be too hard unless they really want to go down in a pointless blaze of glory. I will try to maintain good PR though, because that will make things a hell of a lot easier (and quicker). Maybe try to only disable Starfleet ships that attack (although given their warp cores, that may be difficult ), to show my restraint and so on. Forced labour to build my fleet of droid-crewed warships is definitely a last resort.

In short, I want to do it nicely, but I have a big stick in case it doesn't work.

Exactly what would you rewrite klingon history into anyway?

For example, I'd place greater emphasis on interspecies co-operation: 300 years after conquest I want klingon kids growing up besides cardassians, humans, vulcans, breen and all the rest of the cast and thinking it's normal, good, and has been inevitably moving in this direction long before I ever turned up. "Us and Them" and segregated societies are a recipe for division - IMHO the best means of avoiding this is a monocultural, heavily integrated, multi-species polity, and history & culture that goes against this too much can be pretty dangerous in the long run, however irrational it is.


* I'd probably base it on the British model, because it is very flexible and, if one is willing to break convention (and do so effectively) the monarch can have a lot of power. I believe it's still possible for Queen Elizabeth 2nd to refuse to sign bills into law, even though it hasn't happened since the 1700's or something like that (for obvious reasons). Anyway, this allows for some flexibility in the first few centuries of post-conquest rule, and when I eventually retire it should hopefully carry on nicely without me at the helm.

[Serafina]

But hey, let's make an experiment, inspired by your statement above.
Suppose i give you a piece of modern military technology - say, an Type 212 submarine. You get a dozen wholly intact, fresh-out of the dock ones.
Now your job is to build another one.
You get all the material and assistance you want, but absolutely no original information about the sub - no blueprints, no list of materials, not what type of steel was used, no nothing.

How long do you think that will take? Remember, this is something which is NOT millenia ahead of the technology you are familiar with.

That's an easy one. With the equipment I have access to where I work and with the assistance of Nudd Fabrication across town we could reverse engineer this in about six months, fabricate and assemble another one in six to nine months, debug it and begin mass production. *shrug* And that's without access to 10 X 9.999 to the 99th power trillion-gigawatts at my disposal.

Yeah, right...you expect that you can rebuild to-of-the line military technology (and a lot of it, at that) with your local factory?
So where do you get the high-grade Krupp non-magnetic steel that was used in the construction?
Where do you get the large-scale PEM-cells?
Where do you get the electronics, the weapons etc. etc.?

Give me a detailed description how you would do it - because i am calling BULLSHIT on your claim to be an engineer.
So far, you have demonstrated significant ignorance, but the above was so far the worst (since it relates to RL-tech).

[Spoonist]

Suppose i give you a piece of modern military technology - say, an Type 212 submarine. You get a dozen wholly intact, fresh-out of the dock ones.
Now your job is to build another one.

That's an easy one. With the equipment I have access to where I work and with the assistance of Nudd Fabrication across town we could reverse engineer this in about six months, fabricate and assemble another one in six to nine months, debug it and begin mass production.

because i am calling BULLSHIT on your claim to be an engineer.
So far, you have demonstrated significant ignorance, but the above was so far the worst (since it relates to RL-tech).

Did 100 ton just claim that he could reverse engineer it faster than it takes to actually produce it? If he moved to china he would be the hero of the chicoms.

[Serafina]

Did 100 ton just claim that he could reverse engineer it faster than it takes to actually produce it? If he moved to china he would be the hero of the chicoms.

Yes. Yes he did.
That, and various other stupid claims, is why i think he is bullshitting about being an engineer.
No one with an experience with engineering would claim that he could successfully analayze and rebuild a whole sub within such a short timeframe.

So i think it's pretty clear that he is talking out of his ass.
Thus, a more elaborate challenge:

100 Ton, how are you going to:
-analyze the non-magnetic steel? How are you going to reproduce it?
-Analyze the proton exchange membrane (PEM) hydrogen fuel cells and rebuild them? Especially on the scale required for a submarine.
-Analyze all the numous electronics required to run the sub - and build new ones?
-Analyze the weapon systems and rebuild them. Remember, no substitutes, you HAVE to use newly-build near-identical ones.
-How are you going to do this with only the assistance of Nudd Fabrication - a company that specializes in building

a wide range of tower solutions, ranging from traditional cell towers, concealed towers, broadcast tower, power transmission towers, monopoles, self supporting and guyed towers

and

comprehensive metal fabrication services for large industrial products including ships, barges, truck frames, heavy construction equipment, etc

How can this ONE company compete with Siemens, Thysssen-Krupp Marine Systems, Atlas Elektroniks, Diehl BGT Defence and EuroTorp?
-How are yoi going to build the sub within less than six months?

[SapphireFox]

Damnit I forgot about the commando droids - and I've seen S1 of Clone Wars too . For redshirts, meh. It doesn't seem like the Federation has much that can hurt a basic TradeFed tank that's not a starship, so I'm not too worried about that side of things. Besides which I plan to do most of the actual conquering once I've got the Federation on my side (BDZ threats & competent government will work reasonably well I hope ), so I can get the Federation to build droids out of local materials rather than lose too many of the droids I start out with.

Feddie redshirts might not have much anti-armor ability (or any for that matter) but you are going to need something with an anti-aerospace capability if they use *cough cough* armed shuttles and the like as fighters on planet. They might be enough to slow down or perhaps stop an tank. Something good enough to take out an LATT/i should be enough.

Having at least a few flechette weapons sounds like a good idea too. Worst case, issue them as squad special weapons to my droids when boarding Borg ships (in a more realistic scenario I wouldn't get my perfect tailor-made army anyway, and given how common blasters are...). Still, even without them I'm not sure what the Borg can do to assimilate SBDs without a few weeks / months / years to analyse their design, so taking over a Borg cube even with regular droids should be okay.

If you don't have enough flechette weapons to go round then give the droids plenty of grenades to use, I doubt they have much defense against them. Wost case a grenade/explosive laden B1 battledroid takes a lesson from "Ackmed the dead terrorist" and goes I KILL YOU *boom*.

Maybe try to only disable Starfleet ships that attack (although given their warp cores, that may be difficult ), to show my restraint and so on. Forced labour to build my fleet of droid-crewed warships is definitely a last resort.

In short, I want to do it nicely, but I have a big stick in case it doesn't work.

Good luck with that dood. IIRC Victory SD's don't have ion cannons so that job is much harder for you but trying to do this with minimum bloodshed is commendable. I wouldn't want to explode to many of those "deathtraps" either myself. But sounds like a good plan to me.

For example, I'd place greater emphasis on interspecies co-operation: 300 years after conquest I want klingon kids growing up besides cardassians, humans, vulcans, breen and all the rest of the cast and thinking it's normal, good, and has been inevitably moving in this direction long before I ever turned up. "Us and Them" and segregated societies are a recipe for division - IMHO the best means of avoiding this is a monocultural, heavily integrated, multi-species polity, and history & culture that goes against this too much can be pretty dangerous in the long run, however irrational it is.

So Earth becomes the new Coruscant but with klingons, cool. Romulus and the klingon homeworld would likely become the new Correlia and Taris of this galaxy. Difficult but not impossible it would be tricky though, you are sure to have uprisings of the fundamentalist type for sure though.
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100 ton I would like to second the statement of bullshit on your claims. Its obvious that you lack the capacity to do as you claim since the first thing ANY competent shipbuilder needs is as construction slipway and cranes to lift finished materials into position for assembly. It would take over 6 months alone with a GOOD team of professional shipbuilders already having the parts on hand to build a sub properly and that is not even taking the time to make sure you did the job properly. You would need to build up the infrastructure to build a ship let alone a sub first before you would be able to reverse engineer one.

While an amusing torment to throw at your RPG players no lasting change can come of it. Just something to be aware of as you go forward. Setbacks can be expensive... and they require you to execute underlings. You know... to serve as a warning to the rest.

I do not foresee any issues replicating straightforward mechanical parts and and electronic/circuit items. If you do have issues, I have a full-service machine-shop at my disposal, and in exchange for a position in your fleet I will build whatever you require.

By your earlier statements you seem to think this thread is some sort of RPG. It is not what this thread is, what this thread is is a tactical challenge to the SD.net community....a brain exercise if you will. I may be using the people as themselves in the conqueror position but if I wanted to make this an RPG with players then I would be posting this in another part of the site. Namely the Computer and games section.

[takemeout_totheblack]

Tech manual states they have an onboard emergency antimatter generator that uses some kind of quantum-spin-state reversal crap to turn matter into antimatter but it is such an energy intensive process it would yield only a tiny amount of usable antimatter in any given situation.

I.e. it is a net energy LOSS to produce antimatter onboard, not that the TM is of any relevance.

Tangentially related to OP
This is something I've always wondered about, what are the potential methods and energy returns for producing substances like antimatter, or even hypermatter if you want to get into full on fiction. I get the feeling that they require facilities larger than those found on most starships, but is there really any reason that they couldn't be part of a massive starship? If so what possible reasons could they be?

[Ghost Rider]

Tangentially related to OP
This is something I've always wondered about, what are the potential methods and energy returns for producing substances like antimatter, or even hypermatter if you want to get into full on fiction. I get the feeling that they require facilities larger than those found on most starships, but is there really any reason that they couldn't be part of a massive starship? If so what possible reasons could they be?

Think of it this way, facilities to mine/whatever, process and refine fuel are wasted space on anything except extraordinarily massive ships built for the sole purpose of each of those points. Then adds the problems that they are vessels. You still need somewhere to shelter and feed the crew and energy to move said mass. Economically said ships have to be making more then they are using, regardless of whether they are specialist ships or all-in-wonder ships.

[Luke SW]

The victory has no chance, its tech is so poor compared to the SW galaxy and its droids are a joke.

Star fleet send a runabout, it easily avoids or tanks the laser fire from the star destroyer, fires a photon torp with emp pulse to disable the ship and its silly robots then beams off the captain of the ship, the captain is sent to a fed proson where he learns botany and the true meaning of xmas...

The droids and the Victory-class Star Destroyer get put on disply as a example of outdated LOLTECH.

[takemeout_totheblack]

Ignoring obvious troll Luke SW...
I think previously mentioned political positioning would be the best way to establish yourself as a power in the universe, maybe the captain could park his ship next to the founder world in the Gamma quadrant and promise the Dominion a way to regain their reputation and help them take the Alpha quadrant with some thrown together hyperdrive system and some sort of faux-turbolaser. And before you say it, reverse engineering is a lot easier once you have someone with an intimate knowledge of the tech you're trying to reverse engineer. On top of that, the Dominion would probably snap at the opportunity to throttle the rest of the galaxy, especially the smug Feds and their offensive stereotype friends who dealt them such a disgraceful blow, so it would take minimum persuasion...well, except for Odo, but could he really rein the rest of them when the opportunity to control all solids becomes available? With their well established industry and considerable technological capabilities combined with a kindred thirst for conquest, I think you've got a mega-power brewing in the Milky Way.

[SapphireFox]

Interesting methodology I like it. I have a question though what do you mean by "faux-turbolaser"? Do you mean building a large laser/blaster cannon and "forget" to add the extra second stage bits to make it a true turbolaser? As for convincing the dominion it might take a little more work then your post implies (you being a solid and all and thus perceived as an inferior) but you might just have a realistic chance if your diplomacy skills are up to snuff.

[takemeout_totheblack]

Interesting methodology I like it. I have a question though what do you mean by "faux-turbolaser"? Do you mean building a large laser/blaster cannon and "forget" to add the extra second stage bits to make it a true turbolaser?

Well, don't turbolasers and blasters work on a 'hypermatter reaction/something producing lots of energy -> powers laser -> laser excites tibanna gas -> gas absorbs and redirects the huge amount of energy and emits it as some sort of exotic high-mass high-energy particles which are then weaponized by the turbolaser/blaster mechanism' sort of thing? I was thinking in lieu of tibanna gas they could use some kind of Trek universe substitute to form a less effective but still grossly overpowered weapon (by Trek standards, anyway). Or they could just adjust an existing starship to accommodate a low-power hypermatter reactor and boost the existing weapon yield several fold.
This of course is all working under the assumption that the captain of the V-Star Destroyer has a working knowledge of Hypermatter, its production, and its application or at the very least has a comprehensive databank on the stuff. Considering how widespread and conventional this technology is in the Star Wars universe this assumption isn't too outlandish.
As for the founders, they aren't Daleks, they'll still acknowledge superior technology that could be of use to them regardless of who wields it, they're clever that way. Of course the captain, shrewd tactician that he is, would give the Dominion enough tech to give them a massive advantage over the Milky Way but not enough to pose a serious threat to his Star Destroyer. By the time they get ballsy enough to consider attacking their benefactor, he'll probably have already established a closer to SW tech-level Star Base under his command to make them think twice. Using their patronage against them, you know, makes sense.