Second Galactic Empire Vs Star Trek

[Luke SW]

Here we see the so called glow in 2 images...


http://www.st-v-sw.net/images/Wars/Spec ... -wcirc.jpg

http://www.st-v-sw.net/images/Wars/Spec ... -wcirc.jpg

In neither case does the glow extend outside the atmosphere on the right . . . neither image shows the glow even touching the yellow circle's interior, much less bypassing the circle altogether. And, the frames which follow show an orange fireball on the right, by which point the claimed shield would not be in existence.

In short, we have another instance of the most popular Warsie myth being based on non-canon silliness and the attempt to see what one wants to see by simply misunderstanding the canon.

Those who wish to argue for a shield's existence must therefore prove it. This, however, is an impossibility. At no point is the thesis of superlaser deflection by shield supported by the canon DVD Edition, or any other canon data.

[Luke SW]

He still hasn't come up with a coherent response as to why the Dominion wasn't flying around blowing up everyone in the alpha quadrant's stars and planet, even though its "easy" for ST to do. Not that I actually expect such a response

If you blow up mine il blow up yours....how much of a fucking retard do you need to be not to understand that?.

[Serafina]

Yeah, you have no idea how large an atmosphere actually is, do you?
That yellow line is aproximately at least then times as thick as the actual atmosphere - no, wait, it is waaay worse.

If you blow up mine il blow up yours....how much of a fucking retard do you need to be not to understand that?.

Doesn't work in that instance - the Dominion had a defendable chokepoint, way more ships, a home-defense fleet and many, many other advantages.
Also, by your own logic, the Federation would NOT immedeately retaliate - if we follow your line of tought, you can ty to blow up their planets without much else happening.

Besides - the Federation was LOOSING the war. That is the prime POU for WMDs. Yet, not even an attempt was launched. And when they tried to ANNIHILATE the founder planet (really, who cares if you only want to sterilize the surface or blow it up - same thing, really), they did not use these weapons.
Now, if the Dominion HAD WMDs, they would have surely used them after this point. You don't say "oh, they just destroy NYC, but they used normal missiles, so we won't use nukes either".

I'm glad you will never get even close to make any strategic decisions in real life - even in the USA, your chances would zero. After all, Bush Junior was obviously much smarter than you are.

[DrStrangelove]

If you blow up mine il blow up yours....how much of a fucking retard do you need to be not to understand that?.

Ah but the massive dominion reinforcement fleet is sitting on the other side of the wormhole, a notorious choke point which was closed to prevent the war winning Dominion fleet through. Thus the Dominion forces in the alpha quadrant logically should have been running around blowing up stars and planets since alpha quadrant retaliation was impossible. Your argument still fails, not that that is anything surprising

[Luke SW]

Also, by your own logic, the Federation would NOT immedeately retaliate - if we follow your line of tought, you can ty to blow up their planets without much else happening.?.

Hve you ever heard the expression "a thief never forgets to lock his own door"?.

Just cos the fed is kinda fluffy does not mean that the dominion sees them as such, most ppl see others and judge them to think exactly the way they do. As such the dominion would consider it perfectly acceptable that fed or its allies would retatliate in kind.

Now, if the Dominion HAD WMDs, they would have surely used them after this point.

The dominion HAD WMD'S and tried to use one to pop the bajoran sun IN A RUNABOUT you fucking retard, they were stopped by the defiant.

I'm glad you will never get even close to make any strategic decisions in real life - even in the USA, your chances would zero.

So you think it would be stategically wise to use WMD'S on ppl who also have them?, im FUCKING GLAD you were not in politics dring the cold war......

[Captain Seafort]

You don't say "oh, they just destroy NYC, but they used normal missiles, so we won't use nukes either".

This is a nitpick, but Obama said exactly that last week - that the US will not use nuclear weapons against non-nuclear states that are signatories to and comply with the NPT.

[Serafina]

The dominion HAD WMD'S and tried to use one to pop the bajoran sun IN A RUNABOUT you fucking retard, they were stopped by the defiant.

Really?
Imagine this:
You are waging a total war against an opponent which is unwilling to use HIS WMDs.

Are you going to go ahead and use yours? Well, the Dominion DID.
But instead of a well-planned strike, they decided to only try it ONCE - thereby provoling retalitation.

To sum the possible szenarios up for the lazy reader:

Szenario One: Both sides have WMDs
In that case, we have to ask why the Dominion only tried it once and the Federation never tried it.
It is possible that the Federation simply does not want to - apparently, even after the Dominion tried to do so.
Also, this doesn't explain why the Romulans don't do so.
No side needs to fear retalitation, as the Dominion already used them and both sides have a nice defendable chokepoint.

Szenario Two: Only one side has WMDs
If the Federation has them, that makes them even more stupid, as their usage could win the war with next to no risk by simply bombing the wormhole.
If only the Dominion has them, that makes them stupid for not using them all the time.

Szenario Three: No side has true WMD capacity
This is the only szenario which doesn't make at least one side terminally stupid. It doesn't preclude hasty experiments - but since the one we saw failed without a possiblity to report what happened, it was obviously written off as a failure.

This is a nitpick, but Obama said exactly that last week - that the US will not use nuclear weapons against non-nuclear states that are signatories to and comply with the NPT.

Yeah, but no such limitation applies to our szenario - neither the Federation nor the Dominion could be sure the other side won't start nuking them if they are about to loose.
The only reason the USA can afford that policy is because they can crush pretty much everyone and rely (in case the limitations apply) that they won't get nuked.

[Captain Seafort]

This is a nitpick, but Obama said exactly that last week - that the US will not use nuclear weapons against non-nuclear states that are signatories to and comply with the NPT.

Yeah, but no such limitation applies to our szenario - neither the Federation nor the Dominion could be sure the other side won't start nuking them if they are about to loose.
The only reason the USA can afford that policy is because they can crush pretty much everyone and rely (in case the limitations apply) that they won't get nuked.

And hence why it's a nitpick.

[Luke SW]

Szenario One: BLAH

Szenario Two: MORE BLAH

Szenario Three: EVEN MORE BLAH

You talk like somebody who has no concept of the death toll that would occur if entities in the fed galaxy did what you say and use WMD's.

1. Its a tv series, do not lose sight of that btw.

2. As every star ship in the federation carrier WMD's as per the omega directive, or can easily construct them the toll would be huge if somebody did go all out.

3. The dominion failed to kill the bajoran sun, and while fed did not use a wmd as such section 31 infected the great link (and would have gotten away with genocide so no retaliation) if it had not been discovered and cured by o'brien and bashir.

Yeah, but no such limitation applies to our szenario - neither the Federation nor the Dominion could be sure the other side won't start nuking them if they are about to loose.

You do talk wank.

[Serafina]

Again, darkstars little cocksucker fails to graps what i said.

The death toll would be huge - but ONESIDED.
And even if not - both sides are autocratic dictatorships, they WILL accept a high deathtoll to prevent foreign occupation.

[Luke SW]

Again, darkstars little cocksucker fails to graps what i said.

The death toll would be huge - but ONESIDED.
And even if not - both sides are autocratic dictatorships, they WILL accept a high deathtoll to prevent foreign occupation.

You are such a fucking clueless retard.

What the fuck would their be to fucking occupy if the suns and or habitable planets that orbit them are all fucking popped....

[Serafina]

You are such a fucking clueless retard.

What the fuck would their be to fucking occupy if the suns and or habitable planets that orbit them are all fucking popped....

Yeah, "nuking" the major military planets is totally not a viable option.

If you, say, nuke earth, you can still have vulcan. If you can half the stuff for virtuall free, you don't gamble a lot of money on all the stuff. At least smart people won't.
Heck, they could just destroy the orbital installations around eart - after all, they are a major part of the federations shipbuilding and training facilities. Do so on the few other ones and the Federation is crippled and has to accept a harsh peace treaty - or you can just go on and counqer them much easier.

It's obvious that you have no fucking clue what you are talking about.

[Luke SW]

It's obvious that you have no fucking clue what you are talking about.

Im discussing a sci-fi TV series, you seem to think that universal armageddon is a missing part of it...your a prick.

The reason why they did not use then is cos it was not in the script, cos the space battles and ground battles were more fun to watch than some cunt pushing a button every episode and watching a sun or planet go fucking boom.

We are discussing ability not the fucking script writers you fucking twat.

[Serafina]

It's obvious that you have no fucking clue what you are talking about.

Im discussing a sci-fi TV series, you seem to think that universal armageddon is a missing part of it...your a prick.

The reason why they did not use then is cos it was not in the script, cos the space battles and ground battles were more fun to watch than some cunt pushing a button every episode and watching a sun or planet go fucking boom.

We are discussing ability not the fucking script writers you fucking twat.

BEEEP! GQ ALERT!

You just threw Suspension of Disbelief out of the window. We are analyzing the content of the show, NOT the writers intention. As far as a rational analysis is concerned, there are no writers and the show is a historical documentary.

But then again, IF we go by your "logic", then the ability doesn't exist either, because the script writers did not INTED it to exist. Either way, you loose, SCG.

[Luke SW]

You just threw Suspension of Disbelief out of the window. We are analyzing the content of the show, NOT the writers intention. As far as a rational analysis is concerned, there are no writers and the show is a historical documentary.

The show contains WMD's, they are used, they are discussed, they are documented and shown on the federation side and others.

I do not need to rational them or debate the politics of the reasons why they are hardly ever used, that they exist is undisputable FACT. Its is you who are arguing irrationally that they do not exist because of you interpretation of politics and as such you have about as much basis for a point as if you were arguing that their is not air on earth right as we speak.

[Serafina]

You just threw Suspension of Disbelief out of the window. We are analyzing the content of the show, NOT the writers intention. As far as a rational analysis is concerned, there are no writers and the show is a historical documentary.

The show contains WMD's, they are used, they are discussed, they are documented and shown on the federation side and others.

I do not need to rational them or debate the politics of the reasons why they are hardly ever used, that they exist is undisputable FACT. Its is you who are arguing irrationally that they do not exist because of you interpretation of politics and as such you have about as much basis for a point as if you were arguing that their is not air on earth right as we speak.

Federation-leadership is utterly retarded.

Concession accepted.

[Luke SW]

You just threw Suspension of Disbelief out of the window. We are analyzing the content of the show, NOT the writers intention. As far as a rational analysis is concerned, there are no writers and the show is a historical documentary.

The show contains WMD's, they are used, they are discussed, they are documented and shown on the federation side and others.

I do not need to rational them or debate the politics of the reasons why they are hardly ever used, that they exist is undisputable FACT. Its is you who are arguing irrationally that they do not exist because of you interpretation of politics and as such you have about as much basis for a point as if you were arguing that their is not air on earth right as we speak.

Federation-leadership is utterly retarded.

Concession accepted.

WUT?................

[Serafina]

Federation-leadership is utterly retarded.

Concession accepted.

WUT?................

Well, as i said before, that is the logical implication if you have a dictactorial communist regime that fails to use his WMDs against an invading force despite being safe from retalliation.

Since you insist that they HAVE WMDs, they clearly must be utter fools which would be outshined by Sarah Palin.

[Crazedwraith]

You proven the Dominion had it. You did not prove it was in any wide spread or common available tech that the Federation might have or would be filling to use if it had.

The fact that it required a specialised device in both Generations and DS9 is further evidence of it being it being an outlier tech wise and that a normal starship is not as capable of casually 'popping stars' as you claim. If it was, why would Lursa And B'Tor be so keen to get Soran's tech?

[Vympel]

I love it how this fucktard abandons argument after argument as each post progresses.

If you blow up mine il blow up yours....how much of a fucking retard do you need to be not to understand that?.

How much of a fucking retard do you need to be to assume that MAD is a risk here when such a thing is never, ever, ever, never, ever stated in the series?

Your argument is akin to believing that someone would make a TV show about the Cold War and never bothering to mention that nuclear war and the devastation of our civilization is a possibility.

You literally have no evidence for what you're saying at all.

[CaptainChewbacca]

If he's still here, he didn't address why/how the dominion wasn't blowing up everything, since they were immune to a WMD counterstrike and didn't care about their AQ allies. The Dominion is big enough that it doesn't NEED to conquer everything. They can take the remnants and build up at a phenomenal rate.

[Formless]

If he's still here, he didn't address why/how the dominion wasn't blowing up everything, since they were immune to a WMD counterstrike and didn't care about their AQ allies. The Dominion is big enough that it doesn't NEED to conquer everything. They can take the remnants and build up at a phenomenal rate.

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 0&t=141745

Yeah, he's not exactly able to talk right now.

[The Romulan Republic]

Well, as i said before, that is the logical implication if you have a dictactorial communist regime that fails to use his WMDs against an invading force despite being safe from retalliation.

You know, I have never once seen a compelling piece of evidence that the Federation is a dictatorship.

I'll lay out my counter-argument now. I am aware Wikipedia is not the best source, but since you have presented absolutely nothing in terms of sources...

Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Fed ... of_Planets

From the above link:

"... taking the form of a post-capitalist liberal democracy and constitutional republic. It has also been described as a utopian socialist society."

"The Federation is founded under a document known as the Charter of the United Federation of Planets, which is occasionally referred to informally as the "Constitution". It draws text and inspiration from the United Nations Charter and other sources."

"Other aspects of the Articles provide for rule of law, equality among individuals and protection of civil and creative liberties, which appears to be based on principles found in contemporary Western political theory. It includes a set of guarantees of civil rights, the "Seventh Guarantee" being analogous to the Fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution and its protection against self-incrimination.

The Federation has exacting requirements for prospective member worlds that wish to join. Caste-based discrimination is forbidden, and major systematic violations of sentient rights, such as the unjust peacetime imprisonment of specially modified soldiers on the planet Angosia are not tolerated for any petitioner. Furthermore, while most member worlds have single, unified world governments, it is not required for entry, as the Federation will consider "associate membership" of non-unified worlds."

Yes, that's a brutal Communist dictatorship.

Note: we never see a Starfleet captain executed for breaking orders (they're usually given a slap on the wrist at most), we never see Starfleet sanction torture, there is no evidence of Federation gulags for political dissidents, and characters criticize Federation policy with no political, legal, or career reprecussions. About the only aspect of the Federation I can think of off-hand that might fit the picture you're painting is Section 31, but if you only looked at the intelligence branches of the U.S. government (or perhaps any government), you'd probably get a simplistic and overly-negative impression.

[Azron_Stoma]

A little late to bring up but, the very existence of the Cardassian Dreadnought alone is evidence against the whole planet popping gravometric charge theory, 43 gigaton max theoretical yield and it was considered a huge Superweapon.

If Gravometric charges were so powerful, you'd think the Cardassians would fill their Dreadnought with them, or at least one.

[Serafina]

You know, I have never once seen a compelling piece of evidence that the Federation is a dictatorship.

Yeah, i'll admit that i mostly said that to provoke our little troll.

However, let me take up your answer anyway:
A self-description of the UFP is hardly a good source - just look at the self-desription of, say, eastern germany.
The fact that they have a constitution means squat. "Drawing inspiration" doesn't mean anything either - and human rights do not preclude a dictatorship.
Prohibition of CLASS (or caste, same thing)-based discrimination falls right into communist principles.
Since political groups are neither, that doesn't necessarily .
Again, being "based on principles" doesn't tell us much either - the fifth amendment merely guarantees due process, not fair laws - taken to the extreme, you can still be exectuted for reading a capitalist flyer as long as the process is fair. (no, i don't think the Federation is that bad).

The UFP is not torturing etc. as far as we are aware, and they propably don't do it. However, they DO have large prison camps (New Zealand in VOY).
So while they might not be a brutal dictatorship, that doesn't mean they are not a dictatorship.

Now, we never saw much about politics in ST. However, that fact is more likely to indicate a dictatorship (an undemocratic process of some kind to use a broad term) than a democracy - after all, the latter pretty much dictates that citizens get involved in voting.

Now, i have heard the interesting theory that the military is NOT allowed to vote - while that fits with STs "we are not agressive"-policy, it also assumes certain prejudices against the military itself, which we never see.
So you don't really have an explanation why we never once see an election, other than "there are no elections".