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 Post subject: new trekkie vid PostPosted: 2010-02-12 12:26am
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHU_Diab-FQ

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 Post subject: Re: new trekkie vid PostPosted: 2010-02-12 12:44am
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Dam wrong forum. Could a moderator please move this.

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 Post subject: Re: new trekkie vid PostPosted: 2010-02-12 04:32am
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This guy is a dishonest Troll, it's one thing to assume that Imperials don't have Temporal shields out of pure ignorance, it's another to Delete the comment of the guy who gives evidence otherwise,

He also tried using the asteroid calculator to disprove the 12 gigaton Seismic charges a while back, using the fracturing energy of Igneous rock and a 6500 diameter (rather than radius) asteroid. :banghead:

Other generic trektroll tendencies like the Wall of Ignorance and Condescension.

What was the exact source of the Temporal shields story, involving the old republic guy with the Faulty Temporal shields, I can't find the source anymore.

Also fun how he brings up the "Variance" bullshit... Frequency wank by any other name.

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 Post subject: Re: new trekkie vid PostPosted: 2010-02-12 07:51am
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Wow, guy even went as far as to Ban me and make a thinly veiled fake account called Per1on. The hilariously stupid Concessions he makes under that account are so obviously him it's not even funny.

seriously anyone with even 1/20th of a brain could spot that, seals the deal on his dishonesty and demolishes what little "credibility" he had to begin with. Oh wait, he never had any.

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 Post subject: Re: new trekkie vid PostPosted: 2010-02-12 12:10pm
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Yeah I watched it and replied "Hey look it's Red Foreman!" I resonded logically but the realized the guy was a dishonest prick. I just removed my comments, I decided he wasn't worth it.

Especially since he completely ignored Perion and made the clone account "per1on".

I loved that comment below:

"Well this is retarded. Don't know where to begin, but suffice to say that if the incompetents on Voyager of all places could defeat that silly ship, then the Empire would have no problem with it. There's only so much stuff you can erase, especially given how slow warp drive is."

LOL



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 Post subject: Re: new trekkie vid PostPosted: 2010-02-12 01:44pm
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I guess someone decided to take a break from jacking off to 7 of 9 videos and decided to make this piece of crap. That's three minutes of my life wasted (I skipped to the end after a couple of minutes)



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 Post subject: Re: new trekkie vid PostPosted: 2010-02-12 09:39pm
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Moved. I haven't watched this idiocy and don't plan on it though.



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 Post subject: Re: new trekkie vid PostPosted: 2010-02-12 11:39pm
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I hit play on the video, but upon seeing the massive Star Wars style text scroll, and reading about "a single Star Trek ship aganist the whole SW galaxy" I kinda rolled my eyes into my skull and had to go get a spoon to pull them back out.

So no, haven't seen it. And after reading about the blatant abuse of power he's being doing to silence all criticism, I don't plan to either.



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 Post subject: Re: new trekkie vid PostPosted: 2010-02-14 05:28pm
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Does any one have any specific counters we can used against the time ship?

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 Post subject: Re: new trekkie vid PostPosted: 2010-02-14 05:35pm
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hunter5 wrote:
Does any one have any specific counters we can used against the time ship?

Oh, gods, this again? The krenim weapon erased itself from the goddamn timeline. End of discussion.

Unless you are talking about a different time ship, in which case I apologize. For those you can always question the nature of causality (i.e. trek seems to use a branching multiple worlds causality when time travel is involved [except when it doesn't] which makes time travel essentially a useless affair for anything but exploration).



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 Post subject: Re: new trekkie vid PostPosted: 2010-02-14 06:02pm
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Yeah we already tired the fact it was erased from existence it failed. Do we have anything that would shut them up entirely about it?

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 Post subject: Re: new trekkie vid PostPosted: 2010-02-14 06:05pm
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hunter5 wrote:
Yeah we already tired the fact it was erased from existence it failed. Do we have anything that would shut them up entirely about it?

Nothing. If they are that stubborn that they refuse to accept a continuity flaw in their argument that fundamental, there is no reasoning with them. There is no changing the minds one of the convinced, there is only mockery for such people.

edit: although if you really want to try (and if you want to but heads with a brick wall, be my guest, I'll just be waiting here with a sponge to wipe up your blood) have you tried telling them that the weapon was as much a danger to its user as to the enemy, if not more so? If I were you I would go and watch that episode. You can't watch that episode without getting the impression that no sane person would touch this weapon-- unless you are a die-hard trektard, of course.



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 Post subject: Re: new trekkie vid PostPosted: 2010-02-15 08:48am
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Formless wrote:
hunter5 wrote:
Yeah we already tired the fact it was erased from existence it failed. Do we have anything that would shut them up entirely about it?

Nothing. If they are that stubborn that they refuse to accept a continuity flaw in their argument that fundamental, there is no reasoning with them. There is no changing the minds one of the convinced, there is only mockery for such people.

edit: although if you really want to try (and if you want to but heads with a brick wall, be my guest, I'll just be waiting here with a sponge to wipe up your blood) have you tried telling them that the weapon was as much a danger to its user as to the enemy, if not more so? If I were you I would go and watch that episode. You can't watch that episode without getting the impression that no sane person would touch this weapon-- unless you are a die-hard trektard, of course.


Already used the danger to the user argument :banghead: he has latched on to what he thinks is his ace in the hole and nothing is going to get him to let go.

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 Post subject: Re: new trekkie vid PostPosted: 2010-02-15 11:33pm
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just tell then how small the windows are in the ship, thats makes the ones in real life shut up for a while



all i have to say Arthur is this... SPOON

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 Post subject: Re: new trekkie vid PostPosted: 2010-02-16 04:12am
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hunter5 wrote:
Formless wrote:
hunter5 wrote:
Yeah we already tired the fact it was erased from existence it failed. Do we have anything that would shut them up entirely about it?

Nothing. If they are that stubborn that they refuse to accept a continuity flaw in their argument that fundamental, there is no reasoning with them. There is no changing the minds one of the convinced, there is only mockery for such people.

edit: although if you really want to try (and if you want to but heads with a brick wall, be my guest, I'll just be waiting here with a sponge to wipe up your blood) have you tried telling them that the weapon was as much a danger to its user as to the enemy, if not more so? If I were you I would go and watch that episode. You can't watch that episode without getting the impression that no sane person would touch this weapon-- unless you are a die-hard trektard, of course.


Already used the danger to the user argument :banghead: he has latched on to what he thinks is his ace in the hole and nothing is going to get him to let go.


with all the arguments I haven't seen one that showed a way to stop the krenim weapon with it being protected from space-time. If the ship cannot be stopped then the empire cannot win.

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 Post subject: Re: new trekkie vid PostPosted: 2010-02-16 04:20am
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marsh8472 wrote:
hunter5 wrote:
Formless wrote:
Nothing. If they are that stubborn that they refuse to accept a continuity flaw in their argument that fundamental, there is no reasoning with them. There is no changing the minds one of the convinced, there is only mockery for such people.

edit: although if you really want to try (and if you want to but heads with a brick wall, be my guest, I'll just be waiting here with a sponge to wipe up your blood) have you tried telling them that the weapon was as much a danger to its user as to the enemy, if not more so? If I were you I would go and watch that episode. You can't watch that episode without getting the impression that no sane person would touch this weapon-- unless you are a die-hard trektard, of course.


Already used the danger to the user argument :banghead: he has latched on to what he thinks is his ace in the hole and nothing is going to get him to let go.


with all the arguments I haven't seen one that showed a way to stop the krenim weapon with it being protected from space-time. If the ship cannot be stopped then the empire cannot win.

You haven't presented an argument for why this assumption is justified, asshole. Don't make us do your homework for us.



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“I would suggest "Schmuckulating", which is what Futurists do and, by extension, what they are." — Commenter "Rayneau"

The Magic Eight Ball Conspiracy.

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 Post subject: Re: new trekkie vid PostPosted: 2010-02-16 08:22am
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http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Krenim_weapon_ship

Quote:
The ship obtained its power to affect time from its temporal core. When in operation, the core also kept the ship, and everything and everyone on it, outside of normal space-time. This rendered the ship immune to all conventional weapons and protected the crew from the flow of time, effectively rendering them immortal.


*yawns* I feel like i'm teaching basic arithmetic to a chimp.

here's some quotes from the episode itself:

Quote:
OBRIST: Sir, six vessels are approaching our position.
ANNORAX: Identify.
OBRIST: Three Nihydron warships, two Mawasi cruisers, and Voyager.
ANNORAX: We're outside space-time, impervious to their weapons. Let them come.


Quote:
ANNORAX: You surprise me, Obrist, After so many years you still perceive time through conventional eyes. Never is a word that has no meaning here. As long as we stay on this vessel, protected from space-time, we have all eternity to accomplish our mission.


Quote:
ANNORAX: Disable their shielding. Prepare to initiate a temporal incursion.

[Bridge]

KIM: That entire vessel's in a state of temporal flux. It's like they exist outside space-time.
PARIS: They're scanning us.

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 Post subject: Re: new trekkie vid PostPosted: 2010-02-16 08:36am
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marsh8472 wrote:
with all the arguments I haven't seen one that showed a way to stop the krenim weapon with it being protected from space-time. If the ship cannot be stopped then the empire cannot win.

Perhaps the Galactic Empire can't. On the other hand, given how much worse that now-erased Krenim ship made things each time it erased something, it'll probably find itself being royally screwed over by something much worse than Palpatine's Galactic Empire :lol: .

What else... oh yeah.

1. The ship doesn't exist any more because, you know, it got erased.
2. Star Wars ships do actually have a kind of temporal shielding. It would be foolish to simply assume that the Krenim's now-erased weapon on the now-erased ship will simply be able to bypass this.
3. I've been having a look at the Memory Alpha page on the ship in question. The now-erased ship was slower than the USS Voyager at Warp speeds, meaning that it would to take decades to get anywhere in the SW Galaxy, whilst all those Star Destroyers cross the galaxy in mere days. I say would because, of course, it doesn't exist any more. Note, by the way, that whilst its travelling at snail pace through the galaxy, the locals will be pouring their resources into developing a means of defeating or withstanding it. Or would be, if it still existed.
4. It needed to enter the atmosphere to fire its weapon against a colony. How would it get through the planetary shields at, say, Coruscant? Do you have proof that its now-erased weapon (or indeed, hull) can bypass Star Wars shields when it can obviously, for example, interact with regular matter? If it has to fire from within a planet's atmosphere, and can't get there... yeah...
5. Related to point #2, Star Wars powers obviously have some good knowledge of how time works. We've even had good old time travel in the EU.
6. Star Trek time travel (and similar phenomena) seems to work on a "many universes" or "parallel universes" model. Which would make the Krenim ship more of a fancy means of hopping between parallel universes than one that actually buggered up time. Which means whilst it's travelling between universes, Star Trek is getting screwed over.
7. The last I checked, quite a few species (humans included) don't have a recorded homeworld in Star Wars. Those worlds that are suggested are all core worlds (see point #3).
8. I haven't watched the episodes related to the ship in some time, but I believe it could communicate with others whilst its magic shields were up. It this is able to interact with normal space-time on at least some level, so its shields aren't all they've cracked up to be. I also notice that, as per your quote from Harry Kim, Federation sensors were able to detect it, and it was clearly visible to the naked eye even! Proof that this will protect it from, say, Palpatine force choking the crew (not that it's important of course: the ship doesn't exist any more)? Also provide proof that it can avoid the other exotic weapons Star Wars societies have available.

Right, that's all the freebies you're getting from me. Go do some proper research before announcing your one-episode wonder will win the war for you.



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 Post subject: Re: new trekkie vid PostPosted: 2010-02-16 01:31pm
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Already defeated these arguments, i've never seen such a desperate attempt to grasp at any straws available, imaginary or not. It's very amusing.

Quote:
1. The ship doesn't exist any more because, you know, it got erased.


the matter that the ship was made of got erased. The designer was not erased. You see him at the end and a pad on his desk showing the same visuals that were on the time ship. It's unclear whether another one was made or not.

Quote:
2. Star Wars ships do actually have a kind of temporal shielding. It would be foolish to simply assume that the Krenim's now-erased weapon on the now-erased ship will simply be able to bypass this.


a specific type of temporal shielding is required. If this relativistic shielding is considered temporal shielding, it's the weakest type of sheidling ever made. It can block energies in hyperspace, not changes in history.

Quote:
3. I've been having a look at the Memory Alpha page on the ship in question. The now-erased ship was slower than the USS Voyager at Warp speeds, meaning that it would to take decades to get anywhere in the SW Galaxy, whilst all those Star Destroyers cross the galaxy in mere days. I say would because, of course, it doesn't exist any more. Note, by the way, that whilst its travelling at snail pace through the galaxy, the locals will be pouring their resources into developing a means of defeating or withstanding it. Or would be, if it still existed.


since the crew don't age, taking decades to get somewhere is not a problem. They can also erased targets on a regular basis on the way there. After each incursion the locals would lose their memories of what is happening and not bother trying to find ways to defeat the weapon. Example: if the ship erased 1 planet the locals wouldn't worry because nothing was erased as far as they know, then another planet gets erased and still nothing was erased as far as they know, etc.. no cause for concern.

Quote:
4. It needed to enter the atmosphere to fire its weapon against a colony. How would it get through the planetary shields at, say, Coruscant? Do you have proof that its now-erased weapon (or indeed, hull) can bypass Star Wars shields when it can obviously, for example, interact with regular matter? If it has to fire from within a planet's atmosphere, and can't get there... yeah...


their weapon is temporal and phased out of space-time. The weapon would fire like it wasn't even there. Plus the ship should be able to just fly right though the planetary shield since it's phased outside of space-time. Any attempt to prove otherwise is only attempts to prove that star trek is fiction which you would have to be delusional to not already know that.

Quote:
5. Related to point #2, Star Wars powers obviously have some good knowledge of how time works. We've even had good old time travel in the EU.


All incidents of time travel in star wars are only partially documented and due to unusual hyperdrive malfunctions, the effects of the Force, or similar exotic events. Usually people like this insert the word "obvious" in a lame attempt to try to pass off a point as obvious. If they had good knowledge of how time worked they would have temporal shielding and would resemble the federation in the 29th century with their technology to scan time and travel to any point they wished. The krenim know more about temporal science than star wars does yet the krenim ship was able to alter the krenim imperioms history and even the krenim imperium wasn't able to do anything about it.

Quote:
6. Star Trek time travel (and similar phenomena) seems to work on a "many universes" or "parallel universes" model. Which would make the Krenim ship more of a fancy means of hopping between parallel universes than one that actually buggered up time. Which means whilst it's traveling between universes, Star Trek is getting screwed over.


in some cases it does like in the new star trek movie. In this case it doesn't. They change the current timeline that they're in, they make that quite clear. It's similiar to the models of time travel shown in the "yesterday's enterprise" TNG, TOS: "The City on the Edge of Forever", Star Trek First Contact, "Future's End" voyager, etc...

Quote:
7. The last I checked, quite a few species (humans included) don't have a recorded homeworld in Star Wars. Those worlds that are suggested are all core worlds (see point #3).


I think I read somewhere that humans were abducted and transported to the star wars galaxy where they colonized the planets. In my scenario, Q transports them there. Naturally star wars and star trek don't interact. In the verses debate we operate under the premise that the ship is in star wars space in order to make the confrontation possible. This objection is refuted by accepting the premise in the hypothetical situation.

Quote:
8. I haven't watched the episodes related to the ship in some time, but I believe it could communicate with others whilst its magic shields were up. It this is able to interact with normal space-time on at least some level, so its shields aren't all they've cracked up to be. I also notice that, as per your quote from Harry Kim, Federation sensors were able to detect it, and it was clearly visible to the naked eye even! Proof that this will protect it from, say, Palpatine force choking the crew (not that it's important of course: the ship doesn't exist any more)? Also provide proof that it can avoid the other exotic weapons Star Wars societies have available.


Doesn't matter. Star trek writers give the vessel the characteristic that it is impervious to weapons from being phased outside normal space-time. Any attempt to find inconsistency in these properties is just an attempt to use a proof of star trek being fictional to prove that the krenim ship is not phased outside normal-space which contradicts star trek canon. If the vessel wasn't outside normal-space then the crew would have shown signs of aging after 200 years, they wouldn't keep making references in the episode that it was outside space-time and the ship would have taken damage when it was attacked while the temporal core was online.

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 Post subject: Re: new trekkie vid PostPosted: 2010-02-16 01:33pm
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I came up with a list of problems of my own on another forum, enjoy:

1) They need to know what a temporal variance is.
2) they need to some how aquire the temporal variance. Voyager got this information from a torpedo lodged in their hull but the krenim weapon is never seen using these torpedoes and wouldn't against the empire. So they'll need to get the variance number another way.
3) They need to know how to make shields that can produce the same effect as voyager
4) they need to get it right the first time. If they fail and send a test ship, the weapon can erase it from history and they will have no memory that they even made that test plus who knows what that damage that would do to the empire's timeline
5) the weapon was able to erase ships from history even with temporal shields, so you gotta hope they can withstand a direct hit with the shields in an attack
6) they will only be able to protect the ships that have this shielding from changes in the timeline. This limited number of ships is all they would have to work with in a battle with their weapon.
7) even with the shields that can hold they still need a way to defeat the weapon with their weapons.

You're basically relying on an incredible advance in knowledge and scientific breakthroughs of monumental proportions on star wars to pull all this off.

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 Post subject: Re: new trekkie vid PostPosted: 2010-02-16 02:50pm
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Virgin - you're on the same intellectual level as Julian 'Frankenstien' McGrath from Big Daddy: "I WIN!" Of course, he was seven... what's your excuse.

To put it in Star Trek nerd terms, it's like saying: "I WIN BECAUSE Q/GOD/MAGIC/WRITER'S FIAT SAYS SO!"



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 Post subject: Re: new trekkie vid PostPosted: 2010-02-16 02:56pm
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marsh8472 wrote:
I came up with a list of problems of my own on another forum, enjoy:

1) They need to know what a temporal variance is.
2) they need to some how aquire the temporal variance. Voyager got this information from a torpedo lodged in their hull but the krenim weapon is never seen using these torpedoes and wouldn't against the empire. So they'll need to get the variance number another way.
3) They need to know how to make shields that can produce the same effect as voyager
4) they need to get it right the first time. If they fail and send a test ship, the weapon can erase it from history and they will have no memory that they even made that test plus who knows what that damage that would do to the empire's timeline
5) the weapon was able to erase ships from history even with temporal shields, so you gotta hope they can withstand a direct hit with the shields in an attack
6) they will only be able to protect the ships that have this shielding from changes in the timeline. This limited number of ships is all they would have to work with in a battle with their weapon.
7) even with the shields that can hold they still need a way to defeat the weapon with their weapons.

You're basically relying on an incredible advance in knowledge and scientific breakthroughs of monumental proportions on star wars to pull all this off.


Quote:
1) They need to know what a temporal variance is.
Easy enough.

Quote:
2) they need to some how aquire the temporal variance. Voyager got this information from a torpedo lodged in their hull but the krenim weapon is never seen using these torpedoes and wouldn't against the empire. So they'll need to get the variance number another way.
If the time ship never used the torpedoes how did Voyager get hit with some?

Quote:
3) They need to know how to make shields that can produce the same effect as voyager
We already have proof of Star wars having shields against time dilation. While these may not have much initial effect against the time weapon it will shield ships from indirect effects enough to come up with a direct defense.

Quote:
4) they need to get it right the first time. If they fail and send a test ship, the weapon can erase it from history and they will have no memory that they even made that test plus who knows what that damage that would do to the empire's timeline
Already have shields for that.

Quote:
5) the weapon was able to erase ships from history even with temporal shields, so you gotta hope they can withstand a direct hit with the shields in an attack
So don't get hit.

Quote:
6) they will only be able to protect the ships that have this shielding from changes in the timeline. This limited number of ships is all they would have to work with in a battle with their weapon.
Ships which are far more powerful than any ships trek has.

Quote:
7) even with the shields that can hold they still need a way to defeat the weapon with their weapons
Hit it with ion cannons shutting down all systems aboard the ship then wipe it out with turbolasers

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 Post subject: Re: new trekkie vid PostPosted: 2010-02-16 06:28pm
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Why bother with ion cannons? MTL hit. End of TimeShip. You don't need to shut down systems onboard a target that ceases to exist in its entirety the moment you hit it.



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 Post subject: Re: new trekkie vid PostPosted: 2010-02-16 07:19pm
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Batman wrote:
Why bother with ion cannons? MTL hit. End of TimeShip. You don't need to shut down systems onboard a target that ceases to exist in its entirety the moment you hit it.

Actually, it misfired and that is why it ceased to exist. But that's just a nitpick since no one cares about a timeline that never happened anyway. :P



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“I would suggest "Schmuckulating", which is what Futurists do and, by extension, what they are." — Commenter "Rayneau"

The Magic Eight Ball Conspiracy.

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 Post subject: Re: new trekkie vid PostPosted: 2010-02-17 04:22am
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Youngling

Joined: 2010-02-14 08:32am
Posts: 142
Quote:
Easy enough.


for voyager but the ability to do this was never demonstrated on star wars.

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If the time ship never used the torpedoes how did Voyager get hit with some?


You must enjoy being wrong all the time.

http://www.ditl.org/index.php?daymain=/ ... imtimeship says that the conventional weapons details are not known.

Image

the krenim weapon's conventional weapon's aren't even the same color as the krenim torepedos. You can't tell the difference between phasers and photons just by looking at them. Plus the conventional weapon of the krenim ship didn't impact voyager's shields or the shields of their fleet whereas the krenim torpedos were stoped by the temporal shields.

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We already have proof of Star wars having shields against time dilation. While these may not have much initial effect against the time weapon it will shield ships from indirect effects enough to come up with a direct defense.


Do the research: Relativistic shielding does not protect the ship from any type of attacks or energies just some types of energy generated from hyperspace travel. It keeps the ship from moving slower in time. You're assigning characteristics to relative shielding that just aren't there. It cannot shield itself from a temporal shockwave and changes in the speed of time is a different phenomena than changes in history. That just shows how irrational and despirate people are here when it comes to defenses.

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So don't get hit.


if they don't get hit then there's no way to test prototype shielding as a defense against the weapon. Any test prototypes need to be successful on the first try otherwise it gets erased and no one remembers trying that prototype and they're just as lible to send the same prototype again while not knowing they did it before. This is all assuming that star wars has the ability to make temporal shields to begin with which they don't.

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Ships which are far more powerful than any ships trek has.


not the krenim weapon ship and species 8472's bioships.

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Hit it with ion cannons shutting down all systems aboard the ship then wipe it out with turbolasers


wouldn't work, the ship is protected from space-time and impervious to their weapons.

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