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 Post subject: Re: How to destroy all life in the star wars galaxy (easy steps) PostPosted: 2010-02-23 02:55pm
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They go back 3 and a half billion years and the anomaly is only the size of a quarter of a single galaxy. They think the universe is only 14 billion years old and arguably time didn't exist before this point.


The issue of time beginning with the big bang is best left to philosophy and is an unknown beyond our purview and perception. Such discussions are proboly best left in the SLAM forum area. but even if it exceeded normal bounds of the known it would still affect the development of ALL species and STILL be suicidal.



You will see the tears of time.

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 Post subject: Re: How to destroy all life in the star wars galaxy (easy steps) PostPosted: 2010-02-23 02:58pm
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However, since the Big Bang is about, you know, the EXPANSION of the universe, your presumption still fails.
If it is growing, then it was once smaller. Since the anomaly grows backwards in time, it will automatically meet up with the universe at some point.
Therefore, you will invariably kill yourself no matter where in the universe you are.

Since the universe was REALLY small "before" the advent of time, it was also really small "after" the advent of time.
Even the biggest known size of the anomaly (the one on the primordial earth) is big enough to swallow the whole universe at that time.



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"The world owes you nothing but painful lessons" - CaptainChewbacca
"The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one." - Wilhelm Stekel
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 Post subject: Re: How to destroy all life in the star wars galaxy (easy steps) PostPosted: 2010-02-23 03:03pm
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SapphireFox wrote:
Quote:
They go back 3 and a half billion years and the anomaly is only the size of a quarter of a single galaxy. They think the universe is only 14 billion years old and arguably time didn't exist before this point.


The issue of time beginning with the big bang is best left to philosophy and is an unknown beyond our purview and perception. Such discussions are proboly best left in the SLAM forum area. but even if it exceeded normal bounds of the known it would still affect the development of ALL species and STILL be suicidal.


I could always pull out the infamous star wars trump card: the infinite limits fallacy. There's no reason to assume that the anomaly will grow forever.

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 Post subject: Re: How to destroy all life in the star wars galaxy (easy steps) PostPosted: 2010-02-23 03:05pm
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Why not? Leaving aside questions as to the Big Bang, why could it not grow forever, given that ordinary time is supposed to continue plodding forwards forever*.

* Although I suppose that in the event of a heat death or big crunch you could say it stops, but that's kinda like the Big Bang for anti-time I guess.



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 Post subject: Re: How to destroy all life in the star wars galaxy (easy steps) PostPosted: 2010-02-23 03:08pm
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marsh8472 wrote:
I could always pull out the infamous star wars trump card: the infinite limits fallacy. There's no reason to assume that the anomaly will grow forever.


Where does Star Wars ever have infinite limits?
Where did anyone in this "discussion" EVER use infinite limits (except you, of course)?
We are merely using well-established numbers. Yes, they are ridiculously high. That's the case in nearly every Sci-Fi except the hardest. ST does it, too. SW is by no means the worst offender - other sci-fi cultures have what is about the power of the death star packed into a small frigate hull.
Suck on that, :wanker:



SoS:NBA GALE Force
"Destiny and fate are for those too weak to forge their own futures. Where we are 'supposed' to be is irrelevent." - Sir Nitram
"The world owes you nothing but painful lessons" - CaptainChewbacca
"The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one." - Wilhelm Stekel
"In 1969 it was easier to send a man to the Moon than to have the public accept a homosexual" - Broomstick

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 Post subject: Re: How to destroy all life in the star wars galaxy (easy steps) PostPosted: 2010-02-23 03:23pm
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marsh8472 wrote:
SapphireFox wrote:
Quote:
They go back 3 and a half billion years and the anomaly is only the size of a quarter of a single galaxy. They think the universe is only 14 billion years old and arguably time didn't exist before this point.


The issue of time beginning with the big bang is best left to philosophy and is an unknown beyond our purview and perception. Such discussions are proboly best left in the SLAM forum area. but even if it exceeded normal bounds of the known it would still affect the development of ALL species and STILL be suicidal.


I could always pull out the infamous star wars trump card: the infinite limits fallacy. There's no reason to assume that the anomaly will grow forever.

Serafina wrote:
However, since the Big Bang is about, you know, the EXPANSION of the universe, your presumption still fails.
If it is growing, then it was once smaller. Since the anomaly grows backwards in time, it will automatically meet up with the universe at some point.
Therefore, you will invariably kill yourself no matter where in the universe you are.

Since the universe was REALLY small "before" the advent of time, it was also really small "after" the advent of time.
Even the biggest known size of the anomaly (the one on the primordial earth) is big enough to swallow the whole universe at that time.


While this explains it better than I you still haven't addressed the fact that this is a suicidal technique. Assuming that the federation has the insane survival instincts of an suicide bomber and was willing to try and use a universal reset button you haven't a why or even a how do I do this without the entire universe trying to kill you to save themselves.

Although this might be the beginning of universal peace as everyone bands together to defend themselves from mortal danger



You will see the tears of time.

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 Post subject: Re: How to destroy all life in the star wars galaxy (easy steps) PostPosted: 2010-02-23 04:01pm
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Teleros wrote:
Why not? Leaving aside questions as to the Big Bang, why could it not grow forever, given that ordinary time is supposed to continue plodding forwards forever*.

* Although I suppose that in the event of a heat death or big crunch you could say it stops, but that's kinda like the Big Bang for anti-time I guess.


for the same reason why lasers can't penetrate enterprise's shields regardless of the yield: the no limits fallacy. http://www.stardestroyer.net/mrwong/wik ... ts_fallacy

Quote:
Where does Star Wars ever have infinite limits?
Where did anyone in this "discussion" EVER use infinite limits (except you, of course)?
We are merely using well-established numbers. Yes, they are ridiculously high. That's the case in nearly every Sci-Fi except the hardest. ST does it, too. SW is by no means the worst offender - other sci-fi cultures have what is about the power of the death star packed into a small frigate hull.
Suck on that


technically it's never been proven that the universe is finite in size so you would be using infintie limit in that case. The size of the universe is at least 156,000,000,000 light years across. And the anomoly on the star trek episode wasn't more than maybe 50,000 light years across. Is it possible it can expand that much? I guess. Is it guaranteed? of course not. And all you can do is leave it at that and move on.

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 Post subject: Re: How to destroy all life in the star wars galaxy (easy steps) PostPosted: 2010-02-23 04:04pm
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The universum is effectively infinite since it is expanding at more than lightspeed.
However, that does not mean that it did not have a determinable size earlier on (in fact, that size has been determined, and it is way smaller before time stops/starts than the largest observed size of the anomaly).



SoS:NBA GALE Force
"Destiny and fate are for those too weak to forge their own futures. Where we are 'supposed' to be is irrelevent." - Sir Nitram
"The world owes you nothing but painful lessons" - CaptainChewbacca
"The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one." - Wilhelm Stekel
"In 1969 it was easier to send a man to the Moon than to have the public accept a homosexual" - Broomstick

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 Post subject: Re: How to destroy all life in the star wars galaxy (easy steps) PostPosted: 2010-02-23 04:13pm
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marsh8472 wrote:
Teleros wrote:
Why not? Leaving aside questions as to the Big Bang, why could it not grow forever, given that ordinary time is supposed to continue plodding forwards forever*.

* Although I suppose that in the event of a heat death or big crunch you could say it stops, but that's kinda like the Big Bang for anti-time I guess.


for the same reason why lasers can't penetrate enterprise's shields regardless of the yield: the no limits fallacy. http://www.stardestroyer.net/mrwong/wik ... ts_fallacy

You misunderstand the fallacy. We see the expansion on screen over several billion years, extrapolating from there is a logical step to make. If the anti-time "fed" on matter, say, then I agree that assuming it could expand forever would be a logical fallacy, given what we know of the distances between galaxies and such (although it might hit other galaxies the smaller the universe is and expand then, but meh). However, as we see or hear of no such limit in the episode (like I said, I'm ignoring the issue of the Big Bang for now), to assume that it will naturally come up against one such limit is illogical. Or:

Anti-time:
1. It gets bigger over time. Backwards over time, but whatever
2. Seemingly nothing natural to stop it (obviously, as we saw, there are artificial means)
3. So it can keep getting bigger ad infinitum

No-lasers:
1. More powerful lasers have more momentum, at the very least
2. You can't ignore momentum
3. Various other things specific to the case, such as the relatively primitive technology & low firepower of the laser-firing ship, etc
4. Turbolasers, in spite of the name, aren't actually lasers
5. This ain't the Skylark of Space :lol: !



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 Post subject: Re: How to destroy all life in the star wars galaxy (easy steps) PostPosted: 2010-02-23 04:39pm
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Teleros wrote:
marsh8472 wrote:
Teleros wrote:
Why not? Leaving aside questions as to the Big Bang, why could it not grow forever, given that ordinary time is supposed to continue plodding forwards forever*.

* Although I suppose that in the event of a heat death or big crunch you could say it stops, but that's kinda like the Big Bang for anti-time I guess.


for the same reason why lasers can't penetrate enterprise's shields regardless of the yield: the no limits fallacy. http://www.stardestroyer.net/mrwong/wik ... ts_fallacy

You misunderstand the fallacy. We see the expansion on screen over several billion years, extrapolating from there is a logical step to make. If the anti-time "fed" on matter, say, then I agree that assuming it could expand forever would be a logical fallacy, given what we know of the distances between galaxies and such (although it might hit other galaxies the smaller the universe is and expand then, but meh). However, as we see or hear of no such limit in the episode (like I said, I'm ignoring the issue of the Big Bang for now), to assume that it will naturally come up against one such limit is illogical. Or:

Anti-time:
1. It gets bigger over time. Backwards over time, but whatever
2. Seemingly nothing natural to stop it (obviously, as we saw, there are artificial means)
3. So it can keep getting bigger ad infinitum

No-lasers:
1. More powerful lasers have more momentum, at the very least
2. You can't ignore momentum
3. Various other things specific to the case, such as the relatively primitive technology & low firepower of the laser-firing ship, etc
4. Turbolasers, in spite of the name, aren't actually lasers
5. This ain't the Skylark of Space :lol: !


if what you say is true then in a way it doesn't help you. All the federation would have to do is do this in federation space and then technically the claim is true that it will destroy the star wars galaxy.

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 Post subject: Re: How to destroy all life in the star wars galaxy (easy steps) PostPosted: 2010-02-23 04:41pm
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Are you seriously telling me he is poking holes in his own arguments to defend them from criticism? How can this guy even manage to breath? I've seen amoebas with more consistency.


A scientific aside: the consensus is that the amount of space that exists has been steadily increasing since the Big Bang, carrying matter along for the ride, like the raisins in a bun moving appart as it expands. So, if we were to create something today (anything) that went back in time, it would come in contact with the whole Universe eventually, as going back in time means there'll be less and less space, and everything will come closer together as a result (a big crunch).

But I guess the science wizards on the board can illuminate us further with their eldritch math-speech :mrgreen:


Quote:
if what you say is true then in a way it doesn't help you. All the federation would have to do is do this in federation space and then technically the claim is true that it will destroy the star wars galaxy.

Right, so the Federation will willingly destroy their whole civilization, as well as all other known civilizations, just so you can feel better about yourself?



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 Post subject: Re: How to destroy all life in the star wars galaxy (easy steps) PostPosted: 2010-02-23 04:44pm
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marsh8472 wrote:
if what you say is true then in a way it doesn't help you. All the federation would have to do is do this in federation space and then technically the claim is true that it will destroy the star wars galaxy.


Yes, assuming that it works at all - not creating an alternate timeline and not being a giant Q-hoax, which you STILL have not proven, tubebrain.
But even IF it works, it is friggin suicide. Besides, you don't even have the time for it if the Empire invades.

So you have created a giant suicide button to destroy the ST-galaxy AT LEAST, which is so unreliable and preventable that it can not even be used as a detriment for enemy attacks.
Great job there, wankieboy.



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"Destiny and fate are for those too weak to forge their own futures. Where we are 'supposed' to be is irrelevent." - Sir Nitram
"The world owes you nothing but painful lessons" - CaptainChewbacca
"The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one." - Wilhelm Stekel
"In 1969 it was easier to send a man to the Moon than to have the public accept a homosexual" - Broomstick

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 Post subject: Re: How to destroy all life in the star wars galaxy (easy steps) PostPosted: 2010-02-23 04:46pm
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Quote:
if what you say is true then in a way it doesn't help you. All the federation would have to do is do this in federation space and then technically the claim is true that it will destroy the star wars galaxy.

You mean with the anti-time? Assuming...

1. They're in the same universe (eg not linked by wormholes, which might mess up the anti-time thing)
2. Nobody is able to find a means of stopping it (like Picard did)
3. Nobody else intervenes to stop it (eg Q)
4. The Federation (or whoever) pulls it off & creates the anti-time anomaly (this also obviously assumes it wasn't all just a trick by Q to judge Picard / humanity)

... then yes it would eventually destroy the SW galaxy. Mind you, it would also destroy everything else, and usually versus debates assume that the victor is around to enjoy things afterwards :lol: . Omnicide or whatever you want to call it is usually (1) considered evil and (2) not a tactic for anyone intending to boast about winning after the fact :D .



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 Post subject: Re: How to destroy all life in the star wars galaxy (easy steps) PostPosted: 2010-02-23 04:51pm
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Marsh8472 are you going to respond to my question or are you going to conveiently "Not see the post" again?

Quote:
While this explains it better than I you still haven't addressed the fact that this is a suicidal technique. Assuming that the federation has the insane survival instincts of an suicide bomber and was willing to try and use a universal reset button you haven't a why or even a how do I do this without the entire universe trying to kill you to save themselves.

Although this might be the beginning of universal peace as everyone bands together to defend themselves from mortal danger


If you are stll having trouble the questions are as follows
1.Addresing that this is a suisidal technique.
2.Why would the federation do this in the first place especialy cosidering question one
3.how would you do this without the entire universe trying to kill you to save themselves.



You will see the tears of time.

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 Post subject: Re: How to destroy all life in the star wars galaxy (easy steps) PostPosted: 2010-02-23 04:55pm
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I'll make a stab at them for you SapphireFox:

Quote:
1.Addresing that this is a suisidal technique.
2.Why would the federation do this in the first place especialy cosidering question one

The Federation somehow swaps universes. Or doesn't care, because beating the Empire (even if it means suicide) > survival, as per retarded versus scenario conditions.

Quote:
3.how would you do this without the entire universe trying to kill you to save themselves.

The Federation keeps it secret. It only needs 3 ships to go to the same spot and go zap with the magic treknobabble beam. You wouldn't need many people in the know to get that to work. Or everyone goes along with it, as per retarded versus scenario conditions.



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 Post subject: Re: How to destroy all life in the star wars galaxy (easy steps) PostPosted: 2010-02-23 05:02pm
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Teleros wrote:
I'll make a stab at them for you SapphireFox:

Quote:
1.Addresing that this is a suisidal technique.
2.Why would the federation do this in the first place especialy cosidering question one

The Federation somehow swaps universes. Or doesn't care, because beating the Empire (even if it means suicide) > survival, as per retarded versus scenario conditions.

Quote:
3.how would you do this without the entire universe trying to kill you to save themselves.

The Federation keeps it secret. It only needs 3 ships to go to the same spot and go zap with the magic treknobabble beam. You wouldn't need many people in the know to get that to work. Or everyone goes along with it, as per retarded versus scenario conditions.


I appreciate the consideration seriously :mrgreen: Tho it is depressing to think of how anyone in the federation would even consider such a scenario.



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 Post subject: Re: How to destroy all life in the star wars galaxy (easy steps) PostPosted: 2010-02-23 05:07pm
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Okay well you'd have to prove that star trek and star wars are in the same universe too. They are different tv shows afterall. Since we don't see the force demonstrated on star trek we can see the physical laws work differently. Let's just say that the federation find a way to get to the star wars universe kinda the same way how they get to the alternate universe and then do it there without any risk to themselves.

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 Post subject: Re: How to destroy all life in the star wars galaxy (easy steps) PostPosted: 2010-02-23 05:09pm
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marsh8472 wrote:
Okay well you'd have to prove that star trek and star wars are in the same universe too. They are different tv shows afterall. Since we don't see the force demonstrated on star trek we can see the physical laws work differently. Let's just say that the federation find a way to get to the star wars universe kinda the same way how they get to the alternate universe and then do it there without any risk to themselves.


Hey, wanktard - they HAVE to be in the same universe for a VS-szenario to occur!
Really, i think i might help you: the brain is UP THERE, in your head - not dangling between your legs.



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"The world owes you nothing but painful lessons" - CaptainChewbacca
"The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one." - Wilhelm Stekel
"In 1969 it was easier to send a man to the Moon than to have the public accept a homosexual" - Broomstick

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 Post subject: Re: How to destroy all life in the star wars galaxy (easy steps) PostPosted: 2010-02-23 05:24pm
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Serafina wrote:
marsh8472 wrote:
Okay well you'd have to prove that star trek and star wars are in the same universe too. They are different tv shows afterall. Since we don't see the force demonstrated on star trek we can see the physical laws work differently. Let's just say that the federation find a way to get to the star wars universe kinda the same way how they get to the alternate universe and then do it there without any risk to themselves.


Hey, wanktard - they HAVE to be in the same universe for a VS-szenario to occur!
Really, i think i might help you: the brain is UP THERE, in your head - not dangling between your legs.


They don't have to be in the same universe. If there was a way to get to the star wars universe in the same way they get to the mirror universe.

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 Post subject: Re: How to destroy all life in the star wars galaxy (easy steps) PostPosted: 2010-02-23 05:27pm
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marsh8472 wrote:
Serafina wrote:
marsh8472 wrote:
Okay well you'd have to prove that star trek and star wars are in the same universe too. They are different tv shows afterall. Since we don't see the force demonstrated on star trek we can see the physical laws work differently. Let's just say that the federation find a way to get to the star wars universe kinda the same way how they get to the alternate universe and then do it there without any risk to themselves.


Hey, wanktard - they HAVE to be in the same universe for a VS-szenario to occur!
Really, i think i might help you: the brain is UP THERE, in your head - not dangling between your legs.


They don't have to be in the same universe. If there was a way to get to the star wars universe in the same way they get to the mirror universe.


Hey, stop that Moron Trek for a moment - BY DEFINITION, if you can reach it, it IS the same universe.
Since any "mulitverse" theory includes splitting of the alternate universes as time progresses, you will eventually reach everyone.

But nevertheless - if you START the damn thing in your own universe and it can not GO to the enemies - all you have done is KILL YOURSELF. Great job there.



SoS:NBA GALE Force
"Destiny and fate are for those too weak to forge their own futures. Where we are 'supposed' to be is irrelevent." - Sir Nitram
"The world owes you nothing but painful lessons" - CaptainChewbacca
"The mark of the immature man is that he wants to die nobly for a cause, while the mark of a mature man is that he wants to live humbly for one." - Wilhelm Stekel
"In 1969 it was easier to send a man to the Moon than to have the public accept a homosexual" - Broomstick

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 Post subject: Re: How to destroy all life in the star wars galaxy (easy steps) PostPosted: 2010-02-23 05:31pm
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Leaving aside the multiverse / universe argument for a minute, one fairly standard versus scenario is a wormhole or similar linking the two settings, which may mean different universes (how else to explain Honor Harrington vs Star Trek, or anything vs the Skylarkers). So no need to bite his head off over this :) .

Just... yeah, you'd better be damned certain the anti-time thing will work through whatever link to the Star Wars setting you have, else you've just committed suicide whilst the Galactic Empire watches on :lol: .



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 Post subject: Re: How to destroy all life in the star wars galaxy (easy steps) PostPosted: 2010-02-23 05:33pm
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marsh8472 wrote:
They don't have to be in the same universe. If there was a way to get to the star wars universe in the same way they get to the mirror universe.


LOL! So now we have universe hopping omnicidal time-paradox proof Feddies who have somehow convinced Picard to teach them how to kill TRILLIONS! With TRANSPORTERS! </doctor evil music sting>

Claims that Q would help them do this in 5....4.....3.....



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 Post subject: Re: How to destroy all life in the star wars galaxy (easy steps) PostPosted: 2010-02-23 05:38pm
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LordOskuro wrote:
LOL! So now we have universe hopping omnicidal time-paradox proof Feddies who have somehow convinced Picard to teach them how to kill TRILLIONS! With TRANSPORTERS! </doctor evil music sting>

Presumably their 29th Century cousins help them avoid the time paradox, and the crossover wormhole or whatever lets anti-time work through it. Now we just need a handy Vulcan or telepath to mindrape Picard and we're all set :roll: !



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 Post subject: Re: How to destroy all life in the star wars galaxy (easy steps) PostPosted: 2010-02-23 05:39pm
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Quote:
Hey, stop that Moron Trek for a moment - BY DEFINITION, if you can reach it, it IS the same universe.
Since any "mulitverse" theory includes splitting of the alternate universes as time progresses, you will eventually reach everyone.

But nevertheless - if you START the damn thing in your own universe and it can not GO to the enemies - all you have done is KILL YOURSELF. Great job there.


The anomaly cannot destroy the whole universe then if you're going to define it like that. The anomoly should only affect the parts of space which were created from the expansion of our big bang. I was assuming that's what we were talking about when we said universe. It shouldn't be able to reach alternate realities and alternate universes.

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 Post subject: Re: How to destroy all life in the star wars galaxy (easy steps) PostPosted: 2010-02-23 05:45pm
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Joined: 2009-01-07 06:37pm
Posts: 5224
Location: Germany
marsh8472 wrote:
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Hey, stop that Moron Trek for a moment - BY DEFINITION, if you can reach it, it IS the same universe.
Since any "mulitverse" theory includes splitting of the alternate universes as time progresses, you will eventually reach everyone.

But nevertheless - if you START the damn thing in your own universe and it can not GO to the enemies - all you have done is KILL YOURSELF. Great job there.


The anomaly cannot destroy the whole universe then if you're going to define it like that. The anomoly should only affect the parts of space which were created from the expansion of our big bang. I was assuming that's what we were talking about when we said universe. It shouldn't be able to reach alternate realities and alternate universes.


As per you saying so, of course.
Have you given this even a SHRED of tought?
(Propably not - it's hard to think when you are wanking, after all. Since you are apparently doing nothing else - well, you get my drift - or at least smarter people than you (read=everyone else) do)

There are three options:
1: Either the SW-galaxy is within another universe that did NOT diverge from the universe containing the ST-universe. in that case, literary anything goes and it is therefore extremely unlikely that the time-anomaly even works (since we can then argue that time works different there, as evidenced by the lack of timetravel).
2: Or SW diverged from the Trek-universe at some point in history, and if you go back far enough, you WILL have a common past and Trek will be dead.
3: Both are within the same universe, so you are dead.



SoS:NBA GALE Force
"Destiny and fate are for those too weak to forge their own futures. Where we are 'supposed' to be is irrelevent." - Sir Nitram
"The world owes you nothing but painful lessons" - CaptainChewbacca
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"In 1969 it was easier to send a man to the Moon than to have the public accept a homosexual" - Broomstick

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