Using Interdictors to hide from ST-sensors?

[Serafina]

In Relics, we have the following exchange after the Enterprise discovers the Dyson Sphere:

PICARD: Why didn't we detect this before now?
DATA: The objects enormous mass is creating a great deal of gravimetric interference, that might have prevented our sensors from detecting it before we dropped out of warp.

Does that mean that Star Trek sensors are, for whatever reason, are unable to detect objects with a lot of mass while in warp?

This would be particulary interesting, because Star Wars has means to create "gravimetric interference" with their Gravity Well generators, commonly mounted on small cruisers.
This could potentially be used to stealth against ships that fly patrols at warp - oh, and it is a very good point against warp strafing, too (not that we ever see it in the first place).

Of course, the Empire does not need to be sneaky - but it's still interesting.

[Oskuro]

And I bet the sudden appearance of a gravity well would really mess up the navigational computers, maybe even forcing them to drop out of warp! You know, like what happens with Star Wars ships

[Batman]

Except the reasons Wars ships drop out of stardrive in the presence of gravity wells (artificial or natural) is BECAUSE they can detect them.
At least as per this bit of dialogue from 'Relics', apparently UFP ships at Warp can NOT.

[Oskuro]

Darn! Are you saying UFP ships ignore this technology due to their limitations? Interesting.

[Themightytom]

Except the reasons Wars ships drop out of stardrive in the presence of gravity wells (artificial or natural) is BECAUSE they can detect them.
At least as per this bit of dialogue from 'Relics', apparently UFP ships at Warp can NOT.

Data said "might" and it doesn't seem that plausible that they can't detect "any" objects of that mass or they'd be plowing into blackholes regularly.

Which actually explains the chronic starship shortage...

Its a weak explanation honestly, somebody should have SPOTTED the solar system sized sphere, even if Sensors couldn't

[Batman]

Darn! Are you saying UFP ships ignore this technology due to their limitations? Interesting.

I'm saying they (apparently) HAVE those limitations. And what technology would it be they are ignoring?
And plowing into black holes regularly would require them to be a HELL of a lot more common than we see in the real world OR Trek. Space is incredibly EMPTY.
As for Trek ships not being able to detect massive gravity wells from Warp, while I seriously doubt that is consistently maintained, Warp drive technology either downright includes or at least allows mass manipulation ('Deja Q') so it's possible a ship under Warp has reduced ability to detect the gravity generated by large masses.

[Oskuro]

And what technology would it be they are ignoring?

Nah, don't take me too seriously, from what I understand of interdictors in SW, they work by fooling the hyperdrive computers into believing there's a gravity well nearby, and thus triggering safeguards and dropping them out of hyperspace, or preventing them from engaging.

From that perspective, such technique not working on UFP ships because they are limited in their ability to detect gravity wells while at warp is both funny and interesting.

Of course, if I remember correctly, the interdiction fields actually create fake gravity "shadows" in Hyperspace, wich are what the hyperdrives detect, thus UFP ships, not being able to use Hyperspace, wouldn't even notice the fields, rendering this whole issue moot, both for Warp Interdiction as well as to provide stealth capabilities.

[Thraxis]

I concur that it likely would not cause warpships to drop out of warp. That said, though, since mass shadows are in hyperspace because of actual masses, what is to say that the illusory mass signature doesn't also show up in realspace? Afterall, interdiction fields also prevent a ship from *entering* hyperspace, not just causing them to drop out while in hyperspace. As such, depending on the means used to explain it, it could very likely be "gravimetric interference" which could cause malfunctions in Fed sensors.

Albeit, it is pretty easy to notice something unusual about gravimentric interference in an unusual area, it could be used as a sensor jamming technique to keep space stations, or even entire battle fleets secret from Fed scans. Imagine a fed ship dropping out of warp to investigate either an "unusual phenomenon" or what they think is a single ship trying to hide, and finding an entire battle group...

[Azron_Stoma]

there was an episode of DS9 where some Gravometric distortions pulled some ships out of Warp, it was used by the Klingons vs the Dominion for Kor's last stand in "once more unto the breach" I know they used the old "tachyon beam to detect cloaked ships" trick as well.

maybe my memory is playing tricks on me but I seem to recall in the ANH novelization that Han said being in a planet's gravity well just meant that more calculations had to be made in order to make a jump. It could still be done, but if they didn't compensate for the gravity, that it would fry the Hyperdrive, but not destroy the ship.

Which means to me that Interdictors are so dangerous because they use unstable gravity wells. that create real gravitational forces and not fake ones, making it so that the Hyperdrive could never compensate cause it would just be stuck in the calculations mode and recalculate forever. however, the mere presence of a mass shadow would draw a ship out of Hyperspace.

I think that would qualify as MASSIVE "Gravometric Distortions" and if 1 Klingon BOP with no dedicated gravity well generators can create a Gravitational issue that screws up the Warp Drives on 10 Jemmie bugs, I can only imagine what an Immobilizer 418 could do. the phrase "Surprise Cockfags!" comes to mind.

but Imperial ships could get be able to get by with standard Romulan or Klingon cloaks from captured vessels most of the time, and I can only imagine how much Stygium Crystals are in the Trek galaxy, since no one uses them (though that depends entirely on the availability of Stygium crystals in the universe.) heck they could possibly just stay out of the range of most Trek Sensors, though the Ion Trail from a Star Destroyer must light up sensors like a Christmas tree considering the damage it's engine wash can do.

wonder if World Devastators could create Stygium crystals do we know what limit they have in terms of what they can re-arrange mater into? might depend solely on having detailed knowledge on the materials themselves.

[Thraxis]

Azron, thanks for the DS9 info.

One thing to mention, though, is that according to the Essential Guide to Vehicles (assuming I remember correctly), the problem with mass shadows is that hitting mass while in hyperspace is pretty much like hitting mass in real space. Crashing into a planet yields the same effects either way. As such, the interdicters simply create the *illusion* of mass, which causes the SW sensors to say "Oh shit, we're about to crash!" and pulls the ship to realspace to avoid a collision.

According to that DS9 episode, it would seem likely that the Fed ships would have a similar sort of failsafe program, so it seems likely that that Klingon trick and the gravity well projectors likely act on the same principle. And I concur, the ST trick probably has nothing on a ship dedicated to interdiction. I would also like to note the potential firepower of an interdictor compared to ST. I mean, they sacrifice firepower in order to mount the multiple gravity well projectors, but they are *still* capital ships, and that says a lot in this fight.

[Azron_Stoma]

yeah, even if it went down to Point Defense Gun or even Starfighter scale yields yields it would still be more than enough to waste any AQ or BQ ship on it's own.

as for the Essential guide quote, I have a tendency to take those guides with a barrel of salt, since they still go by the 15 meter tall AT-AT figure among other errors like Turbolaser ranges etc.

the nearest thing I can think of as a compromise between the two sources, ANH and EGTW&T is that
stable mass shadows while entering hyperspace make calculations take longer where as mass shadows while in hyperspace are extremely dangerous because they can't recalculate fast enough to compensate before impact (due to the incredible speeds) ,

so they can enter hyperspace from fairly low orbits like in ANH, but they have to exit further away from a planet or other large stellar body, which is fairly consistent with what we see on screen.

[Batman]

Except it isn't. Luke was MINUTES away at worst from Dagobah when he realspaced in ESB.

[Oskuro]

Imagine a fed ship dropping out of warp to investigate either an "unusual phenomenon" or what they think is a single ship trying to hide, and finding an entire battle group...

And the captain shouting "It's a trap!"

[Simon_Jester]

And what technology would it be they are ignoring?

Nah, don't take me too seriously, from what I understand of interdictors in SW, they work by fooling the hyperdrive computers into believing there's a gravity well nearby, and thus triggering safeguards and dropping them out of hyperspace, or preventing them from engaging.

That should be trivially easy to override. Given the massive energy and mass penalty of the generators, it wouldn't make much sense to use them if they were in essence nothing more than a giant spoofing system.