Galactic Collision Scenario

[Norade]

Other methods for mapping could be as simply as hyperspace above the galactic disk, use FTL sensors, update map, done.

[bz249]

Other methods for mapping could be as simply as hyperspace above the galactic disk, use FTL sensors, update map, done.

The trick with hyperspace lanes is that they offer the safest and fastest routes. This is almost totally unimportant for the military, since they have very powerful ships and they are not in hurry most of the times. However for the ecomony it is a factor, if the traders loose some speed it means less goods will arrive to the target per day, thus a recession.

[open_sketchbook]

I find it funny that even by brutally slamming the entire Star Trek universe into the Star Wars one, the most damage they can cause is slight, temporary economic problems.

[Thraxis]

Although with this galactic collision theory, I would foresee the borg as a much bigger threat. I mean, sure they would be technologically inferior to the SW galaxy in space, and there is no guarantee that they could even assimilate a SW ship, but if the two galaxies were to *merge* (assuming pre-Voyager ST), hundreds or thousands of Borg would be a short jump away from SW planets. And albeit the borg would have a good chance of being stopped by military forces, there would be many civilians (including technicians, engineers, and amateurs who can fix their own repulsor lifts and hyperdrives). If the borg began to assimilate these un-armored civilians, their knowledge of technology could sky-rocket...

[Transbot9]

RE: Batman
Darkmatter:

Um-it doesn't glow and we thus can't see it. That's it. It doesn't NEED any special attributes beyond that to do what it apparently does.

It's gravitational distortion still needs to be accounted for. Methods for mapping it would be other than using a telescope - and yes, SW tech probably accounts for this.

Borg:

Bzzt. Wrong. They have NEVER been shown to assimilate anything even REMOTELY approaching Star Wars level and have to this day failed to adapt to primitive KE/momentum attacks despite this being the most basic weapon any civilisation develops when the comparably low tech AQ races DID.
Show me the Borg assimilating the Q or the Dowd and we can talk about 'almost anything'

Nothing shows that they can't assimilate SW tech, and since Borg are at the upper end of ST Tech, I see no reason not to give them the benefit of the doubt. Plus, as someone else said, there are plenty of unarmored civilians running around the galaxy. All it would take is the assimilation of one civilian engineer and they would have the upper hand.

Tech:

Try 5,000, WITH a complete manual. You obviously don't understand the tech gap between the Feds and Star Wars.

By that poor logic, a microprocesser plant would never have been able to be constructed in China. There's nothing to show that SW people are smarter (okay, not much smarter - there are a lot of stupid people in Trek). Technical genius or..not..C-3P0 was assembled out of spare parts by an uneducated slave boy who lived at the ass end of the galaxy. Considering how often ST characters figure out how to work alien tech that works on principles than Fed tech (and how often they make the incompatable compatable), your assessment is rather extreme, even for pessimism. As for droids, some show sentience on Data's level, but most of them don't. While they often have personality quirks, few have shown an ability to act beyond their programmed function.

BTW, before someone starts spouting again about how I need proof and you don't, maybe you should brush up on how logic is argued. Oh, and reread about Schroedinger's Cat. Speculation without proof for either side results in both arguments being valid.

[VX-145]

Nothing shows that they can't assimilate SW tech, and since Borg are at the upper end of ST Tech, I see no reason not to give them the benefit of the doubt. Plus, as someone else said, there are plenty of unarmored civilians running around the galaxy. All it would take is the assimilation of one civilian engineer and they would have the upper hand.

*Sigh* How are they going to understand the stuff in his head? It's like mind-melding a roman shipwright with the cheif designer for an Arleigh-Burke (Sp?), and assuming that the shipwright will be able to build it. By himself. With no materials. The Borg wouldn't even know where to start, let alone actually finish somthing that can stand up to SW tech.

By that poor logic, a microprocesser plant would never have been able to be constructed in China.

Except the gap between China's tech and the microprocessor wasn't in the order of tens of thousands of years, more like decades at most.

Remember: Just because ST has spaceships doesn't mean they're even close in tech - as has been said on this board, it's a Roman Trireme vs. the USS Iowa.

There's nothing to show that SW people are smarter

Again, tens of thousands of years, not to mention an alien culture - for all we know they could be being taught advanced engineering in their equivalent of primary school. It'd make a slight bit of sense, considering how many child prodigies come from SW

BTW, before someone starts spouting again about how I need proof and you don't

It's called the Burden of Proof. You seem to be making the claim, so you get to back it up.

Have fun with that.

[open_sketchbook]

I would argue that the Borg could close the tech gap VERY quickly if it zerg rushed a smaller colony world. They would have working examples of the technology, examples of the infrastructure behind the technology, and the knowledge from the specialists working with the technology. I don't see how you couldn't recreate SW tech when you have everything the people in universe use to recreate it on a colony.

[Batman]

RE: Batman
Darkmatter:

Um-it doesn't glow and we thus can't see it. That's it. It doesn't NEED any special attributes beyond that to do what it apparently does.

It's gravitational distortion still needs to be accounted for. Methods for mapping it would be other than using a telescope - and yes, SW tech probably accounts for this.

Not necessarily. Dark Matter may make up a lot of the mass in the universe, but it doesn't necessarily have to be DENSE to do that. A dark nebula a couple thousand lightyears across would have an immense mass yet not produce any appreciable gravity well. Remember that Wars ships routinely AND precisely drop from hyperspace deep inside stellar gravity wells.

Borg:

Bzzt. Wrong. They have NEVER been shown to assimilate anything even REMOTELY approaching Star Wars level and have to this day failed to adapt to primitive KE/momentum attacks despite this being the most basic weapon any civilisation develops when the comparably low tech AQ races DID.
Show me the Borg assimilating the Q or the Dowd and we can talk about 'almost anything'

Nothing shows that they can't assimilate SW tech, and since Borg are at the upper end of ST Tech, I see no reason not to give them the benefit of the doubt. Plus, as someone else said, there are plenty of unarmored civilians running around the galaxy. All it would take is the assimilation of one civilian engineer and they would have the upper hand.

You mean like if the Borg assimilated Mike Wong, they'd know all about nuclear power? How to build nuclear weapons or warships? Modern armour metallurgy? Military airplane construction? How about not? They MIGHT get a VERY basic understanding of Wars technology IF they VERY SELECTIVELY assimilate the right persons, and a staggering LOT of them. Which we NEVER EVER see them do. Also, given that Borg a) tend to stand out, even in a Star Wars crowd, especially in the numbers they'd need to pull that off, and b) are pathetically easy to stop on the Drone level I'm not entirely sure they could pull it of even if they ever thought of it.

Tech:

Try 5,000, WITH a complete manual. You obviously don't understand the tech gap between the Feds and Star Wars.

By that poor logic, a microprocesser plant would never have been able to be constructed in China.

Yeah, because China was 50,000 years behind the rest of the world-technology wise. Oh wait.

There's nothing to show that SW people are smarter (okay, not much smarter - there are a lot of stupid people in Trek).

There's nothing to show that people today are smarter than people in the 1950s. Why didn't they invent the Pentium 4 back then?

Technical genius or..not..C-3P0 was assembled out of spare parts by an uneducated slave boy who lived at the ass end of the galaxy.

And modern PCs are routinely assembled by people not much better educated yet not only would hopelessly baffle highly trained scientists from the 50s but massively outperform computers from the time. Being able to put something easy to assemble from preexisting parts to begin with together does NOT mean that tech base is easy to understand. Case in point:The fact that I have built every last one of my PCs myself does not grant me the knowledge to actually manufacture the parts needed.

Considering how often ST characters figure out how to work alien tech that works on principles than Fed tech (and how often they make the incompatable compatable), your assessment is rather extreme, even for pessimism.

Given that the vast majority of Trek technology ALREADY works on very similar principles, that assessment is if anything GENEROUS. The very FACT that they can make them work only supports the fact that those technologies were highly compatible to begin with.

As for droids, some show sentience on Data's level, but most of them don't. While they often have personality quirks, few have shown an ability to act beyond their programmed function.

Actually just about every last one of them that was around long enough to actually warrant an individual designation did exactly that. R2, 3PO, Whistler, IG-88, Tonin, Emtrey, Mynock, Vape, Squeaky...
Also doesn't change the fact that apparently EVERY SINGLE VALENDAMNED DROID in Wars apparently has the POTENTIAL to develop sentience (which is apparently intentionally suppressed by regular memory wipes).

BTW, before someone starts spouting again about how I need proof and you don't, maybe you should brush up on how logic is argued

Right back atcha. I don't need to disprove the Borg being unable to do something they've never been shown to be able to do to begin with.

[Batman]

I would argue that the Borg could close the tech gap VERY quickly if it zerg rushed a smaller colony world. They would have working examples of the technology, examples of the infrastructure behind the technology, and the knowledge from the specialists working with the technology. I don't see how you couldn't recreate SW tech when you have everything the people in universe use to recreate it on a colony.

You'd be surprised how little information assimilating Bumfuck, Idaho would net you about modern day technology. They'll know how use common technology MAKING USE OF AN EXISTING TECH BASE AND ESTABLISHED INFRASTRUCTURE. They won't know BEANS about most of the PRINCIPLES behind the tech base, leave alone how to GET there from a starting point a couple ten thousand years technologically BEHIND that.

[open_sketchbook]

CAPS LOCK is CRUISE CONTROL for COOL.

I wasn't saying Space Idaho. I was talking more a colony that is still establishing their infrastructure. Such a place would have specialists dedicated to raising the local tech level, and the sort of knowledge and technology that could act as a jump-off point. They wouldn't end up with the same level of tech as mainline Star Wars, but they could be throwing together workarounds and imitations fairly fast.

[Vehrec]

CAPS LOCK is CRUISE CONTROL for COOL.

I wasn't saying Space Idaho. I was talking more a colony that is still establishing their infrastructure. Such a place would have specialists dedicated to raising the local tech level, and the sort of knowledge and technology that could act as a jump-off point. They wouldn't end up with the same level of tech as mainline Star Wars, but they could be throwing together workarounds and imitations fairly fast.

Except this doesn't really work. The colonies are still a part of the galactic economy and situation, comprende? Specialists aren't going out to colonies to 'raise the tech level' because it's almost always cheaper to import this stuff! Need moisture vapporators, landspeeders, blasters? Send away for it! Trade is quick and easy in the Galaxy Far Far Away, maybe cheaper and easier than it is on Earth today. The colonies WILL be space Idaho, because anywhere worth settling will already have metric fucktons of people and development on it, you see? Any world worth taking is a world that would have a Planetary Shield, and that's just going to stop the Borg cold. Not to mention the possibility of planetary defense guns like at Echo Base. No infrastructure to manufacture it, probably nobody who understood how to go about doing that. But it was a gun that easily held off Imperial assault.

Also, you're forgetting transitional steps. The Borg likely lack the Tools to make the Tools to make the Tools they need to begin to tap Wars tech. We know that replicators fail at producing life, and those are some fairly clunky macromolecules. How much harder will it be for them to produce something like Hypermatter, a Stasis field generator or a droid brain when we know they can't assimilate a single crappy Federation android?

[Simon_Jester]

Nothing shows that they can't assimilate SW tech, and since Borg are at the upper end of ST Tech, I see no reason not to give them the benefit of the doubt. Plus, as someone else said, there are plenty of unarmored civilians running around the galaxy. All it would take is the assimilation of one civilian engineer and they would have the upper hand.

*Sigh* How are they going to understand the stuff in his head? It's like mind-melding a roman shipwright with the cheif designer for an Arleigh-Burke (Sp?), and assuming that the shipwright will be able to build it. By himself. With no materials. The Borg wouldn't even know where to start, let alone actually finish somthing that can stand up to SW tech.

If it's one guy, yes. If it's more than a few people (and spread out over a galaxy, it might well be), things start to change a little.

The Borg would be able to close the SW/ST technological gap much faster than anyone else in the Trek setting. Everyone else would have to do it the long way by painstaking study of SW tech in which they'd glean only a few minor insights at a time*. The process could take centuries if the technical gap is as big as the calculations indicate that it should be. For the Borg, it would take less time, though still vastly more than no time. They might well be able to 'cheat' and cut down that millenium of humiliating technical inferiority to, say, a century or two.

*The way a Roman shipwright looking at an Arleigh Burke-class might notice the rudder and try to copy that, even if they can't copy anything else. Or the way that looking at an X-Wing today, we might go over the superconducting wires with an atomic force microscope to try and figure out how the &%$(# they got room temperature superconductors to work. The technologies being copied are trivial by the standards of the ship's creators, but at least serve as a starting point.

[Thraxis]

I wasn't saying Space Idaho. I was talking more a colony that is still establishing their infrastructure. Such a place would have specialists dedicated to raising the local tech level, and the sort of knowledge and technology that could act as a jump-off point. They wouldn't end up with the same level of tech as mainline Star Wars, but they could be throwing together workarounds and imitations fairly fast.

Except this doesn't really work. The colonies are still a part of the galactic economy and situation, comprende? Specialists aren't going out to colonies to 'raise the tech level' because it's almost always cheaper to import this stuff! Need moisture vapporators, landspeeders, blasters? Send away for it! Trade is quick and easy in the Galaxy Far Far Away, maybe cheaper and easier than it is on Earth today. The colonies WILL be space Idaho, because anywhere worth settling will already have metric fucktons of people and development on it, you see? Any world worth taking is a world that would have a Planetary Shield, and that's just going to stop the Borg cold. Not to mention the possibility of planetary defense guns like at Echo Base. No infrastructure to manufacture it, probably nobody who understood how to go about doing that. But it was a gun that easily held off Imperial assault.

Although, one thing to point out, there are plenty of engineers, computer specialists, and other techies that work for the Hutts, Black Sun, the Exchange (if they're still around 4000 years after KotOR), etc. Now, it's true that this probably wouldn't give the borg access to all technology (looking back over the previous arguments), but it could still give valuable knowledge related to ship design, structural weak points, logistics, assembly and modification from base parts, and how to slice a computer system (slice = hack for anyone not familiar with SW slang).

Of course this itself has a major flaw. As Mike has proven again and again on the SD.net, the Borg are STUPID. As such, with any intel like this, they would probably charge Coruscant or a major shipyard because it would be the "best target" only to have their entire collective butt (pun intended) kicked into tomorrow.

[Wyrm]

Before this goes any further, realize that in a galactic collision, the actual colliding part takes about three and a half orders of magnitude longer than the current Star Wars galaxy's civilization has existed. Furthermore, the Star Wars civilization will be within striking distance of the Milky Way on a timescale maybe a half order of magnitude longer than that. The Empire will have plenty of time to mop up before the collision proper even starts, and on that time scale the collision is soft enough that it's only an additional term in keeping the lanes mapped, so this scenario just degenerates into the usual SWvST scenario, except that the Empire can use their entire galactic disk as a staging area for an attack.

This scenario adds nothing of relevance. If Borg "tactics" are useless in the normal situation, they're useless here.

[VX-145]

For the Borg, it would take less time, though still vastly more than no time. They might well be able to 'cheat' and cut down that millenium of humiliating technical inferiority to, say, a century or two.

So? Even though they might find somthing that gives them an even bigger advantage over common ST powers, they wouldn't be able to build anything that can stand up to the hypothetical SW invasion.

[Simon_Jester]

Of course this itself has a major flaw. As Mike has proven again and again on the SD.net, the Borg are STUPID. As such, with any intel like this, they would probably charge Coruscant or a major shipyard because it would be the "best target" only to have their entire collective butt (pun intended) kicked into tomorrow.

A distinct point. The Borg would be far more dangerous if they weren't so ham-handed. I suspect that somewhere along the way their collective consciousness wrote itself a bad software patch...

For the Borg, it would take less time, though still vastly more than no time. They might well be able to 'cheat' and cut down that millenium of humiliating technical inferiority to, say, a century or two.

So? Even though they might find somthing that gives them an even bigger advantage over common ST powers, they wouldn't be able to build anything that can stand up to the hypothetical SW invasion.

When all issues are considered in terms of the Standard Galactic Empire Invasion, this is true. It is also only one of a wide range of possible scenarios. In some of those other scenarios, being able to catch up with the aliens' superior technology more quickly matters. In others, it does not.

The Standard Invasion is the most fully considered scenario on this site, not least because it gives the Star Wars universe's demonstrably greater firepower and numbers the most freedom to control the course of events. Everything can be reduced to a few arguments of the form "Star Destroyers generate X orders of magnitude more electricity than Galaxy-class starships, so the Empire wins." Anything remotely resembling a debate on the issue was resolved years ago, long before either of us joined this forum.

The more interesting, and slightly less entirely-played-out questions revolve around possible cases that involve something more complex than a massive Imperial Expeditionary Force fanning out to conquer the Milky Way and weld them all into the New Order at turbolaser-point. Say, a prolonged period of colonial exploitation backed up with relatively minor investment of military force. Like what sub-Saharan Africa experienced in the 1800s and early 1900s. Or interaction across long distances that are marginally crossable with SW tech but impossible ST tech, so that the ST powers have to deal with massively armed gunships and small but supremely lethal armies coming from "foreign parts," doing whatever they please on a local scale. Like what China experienced in the 1800s and early 1900s.

In those cases, there is actually something worth going on that might conceivably be worth the time it takes to discuss for an intelligent person who has already read the "I want YOU for the Galactic Empire!" section and checked the math.

And in those cases, the Borg knack for assimilating physical technology (if not for clear strategic thinking) might actually matter.

[Serafine666]

The more interesting, and slightly less entirely-played-out questions revolve around possible cases that involve something more complex than a massive Imperial Expeditionary Force fanning out to conquer the Milky Way and weld them all into the New Order at turbolaser-point. Say, a prolonged period of colonial exploitation backed up with relatively minor investment of military force. Like what sub-Saharan Africa experienced in the 1800s and early 1900s. Or interaction across long distances that are marginally crossable with SW tech but impossible ST tech, so that the ST powers have to deal with massively armed gunships and small but supremely lethal armies coming from "foreign parts," doing whatever they please on a local scale. Like what China experienced in the 1800s and early 1900s.

In those cases, there is actually something worth going on that might conceivably be worth the time it takes to discuss for an intelligent person who has already read the "I want YOU for the Galactic Empire!" section and checked the math.

And in those cases, the Borg knack for assimilating physical technology (if not for clear strategic thinking) might actually matter.

That is indeed a much less-explored scenario, Simon, but I'm wondering what changing the time scale would actually accomplish. A clever ST person could operate a blaster but what about trying to make sense of stormtrooper armor? A thermal detonator (considering that they don't even have the concept of a grenade)? Computer network layouts that seem to obey the principles of engineering (even with R2 being able to snoop everywhere in the Death Star, the tractor beam was physically isolated and data about Leia was restricted such that R2 couldn't access it)? The myriad complexities of hyperspace and more critically, hyperdrives? Industrial scaling quite literally beyond their comprehension? Africans in the 1800s could have easily understood and used European technology of the era but the nature and principles of SW technology are very dissimilar to what we can discern about the ST universe. Moreover, even your scenario of an extremely gradualist integration of the ST and SW worlds, the capacity of the Empire to establish a staging area in the ST universe from which it can roam freely and smash threats (like the Borg) that is central to the scenario Mike examined would be unaffected by the scenario before us.

I suppose the best way to simplify my question is thus: what do you imagine would change between a scenario of an amazing wormhole spitting an Imperial task force into the ST galaxy and the Imperial task force sailing themselves over with their order-of-magnitude-superior propulsion technology?

[Simon_Jester]

I suppose the best way to simplify my question is thus: what do you imagine would change between a scenario of an amazing wormhole spitting an Imperial task force into the ST galaxy and the Imperial task force sailing themselves over with their order-of-magnitude-superior propulsion technology?

The most significant difference would be a simple matter of transportation and economics. If the Galaxy (not so) Far Far Away is close enough to be within plausible hyperdrive range (say, a million light years, ignoring any navigational issues that might arise from trying to leave one's own galaxy), but not so close that it can be reached casually, that's going to have an effect on the interaction between the galaxies.

Fuel costs of making the intergalactic jump would be substantial, much greater than those of any jump within the Star Wars galaxy. Bulk trade wouldn't pay; luxury goods might. We know there's precedent for exotic chemicals or biologicals being traded throughout the galaxy in Star Wars, and the most probable interactions between Star Wars and Star Trek in this scenario would be an extension of this trade. The trip might have to be made in specialized ships that carry an unusually large amount of fuel, depending on the distances involved.

What would not happen, or probably not happen, is a systematic Imperial conquest of the Star Trek galaxy using its superior technology. As an illustration of why I say this, consider that neither the Republic nor the Empire ever bothered to fully subdue the "Unknown Regions" on the fringes of their own galaxy. Even if we grant that these regions are sparsely populated, economically backward, and therefore undesirable real estate compared to the Core and inner Rim, that's still suggestive. If the Empire never fully subjugated the frontiers of its own galaxy, why would it launch a major military campaign to subjugate a distant foreign galaxy? Without a wormhole providing easy access to the heart of the Milky Way, and without the implicit threat (or at least nuisance) posed by Star Trek ships sneaking through the wormhole and making trouble on the Star Wars side, what's the incentive?

Traders have a reason to go to the Milky Way in hopes of finding valuable biologicals; Imperial battle fleets, by and large, do not.
________

Moreover, during the time we see, the Star Wars galaxy is in a state of political upheaval: they don't call it Star Wars for nothing. Ships sent to go play conquistador in a backwater galaxy full of primitives are not being used to guard one's core worlds or stamp out rebellions. Events in the Galaxy (not so) Far Far Away will have impact on the representatives of Star Wars powers in the Milky Way: what happens to the Imperial-backed trading consortiums after something like Endor, or to Corporate Sector-funded operations similar to the East India Company if the Clone Wars break out at home while the traders are busy negotiating a deal for a shipload of tribbles or some such?

This gives Trek nations the opportunity to play one side of the current round of Star Wars against the other: Rebel agents versus Imperial merchants, Republic Jedi envoys against CIS corporate executives, with independent pirates, smugglers, and organized crime taking on all comers. Something like that is far less likely to happen if we just have the Imperial Fleet of our dreams come storming through a wormhole in the middle of the Alpha Quadrant; in a case like that there's no room for subtlety or maneuver.
________

The closest historical analogy would be the experience of the Far East during the age of European colonialism. While it was always possible for a European power with a respectable fleet to project overwhelming force anywhere it needed to in the Far East, the actual level of force deployed in the region was quite low compared to the level Europeans kept at home. Nations with dozens of large men-of-war and hundreds of thousands of soldiers at home might have only a few frigates and a few regiments in the East.

Partly this was because even such a small force could usually crush overt resistance, but part of it was the sheer logistical challenge of maintaining a force roughly ten thousand miles from home. That's far more difficult than keeping the same amount of strength in one's own home ports. Because of this, colonial governors in the Far East often had to make do with minimal force, accepting that most of the administration of their colonies would be done by natives. In some places, such as China, the colonials never even tried to establish rule over the entire nation, and satisfied themselves with a few well defended merchant enclaves.

While the brute force to subjugate those colonies existed, and could be used if it was necessary (witness the Indian Mutiny), actually bringing it into play was very expensive and difficult. As a result, Europeans never really gained full control of the Far East: by the time their grip on places like India and China was settling in, Japan had already started to get the hang of enough European technology to make outright conquest unlikely.

This kind of thing is also spread out over long time scales- it took roughly 100 years for the British to go from their first explorations of India's coast to a dominant position of power over the subcontinent (around the time of Clive in 1760), and roughly 100 more for them to become an unquestioned hegemon over India (with the formation of the Raj after the Indian Mutiny). And this was not purely a matter of travel time; travel time to and from India was no more than a year, and communications within India could flow in a matter of weeks. Subduing the area took centuries not because travel and communications were slow, but because there was no formal government effort to take over India, and no particular reason for the government to bother.

Compare this to the time scales of weeks, months, or years bandied about for a direct large-scale Imperial invasion of Star Trek, and you begin to see why possibilities like reverse engineering might matter more in the "colonialism" context than in the "wormhole invasion" context. While Star Trek technology is vastly behind Star Wars, the differences aren't so overwhelming that the Trekkers will learn nothing from analysis of Star Wars technology: they understand that it is not magic, they don't panic when a box starts talking to them, they can analyze the molecular structure of exotic materials and learn something, and so on.

Over generational time scales, you'll even get weird things like Federation students buying (at ludicrous expense) a ticket to Coruscant to attend Star Wars universities and learn some of the science underlying this impossibly advanced technology.
_________

The reason I think all of this is more interesting than the classic "massive invasion fleet" scenario is precisely because its results cannot be summed up in one line. It has the potential to be an exploration of colonialism and the struggle to master the tools and methods of a more advanced society, not just a calculation of who can vaporize how many asteroids in how many microseconds.

[bz249]

Simon, I would say there is another interesting possibility when a relatively small group of SW warships and/or civilian ships end up somehow in the ST galaxy and lose connections with the GFFA permanently. That way they have the part of the knowledge, some working piece of technology, but the overall technology network is lost forever. Under these conditions the SW group

a.) have to construct a working patchwork out of what they have, what pieces the ST galaxy could provide and what they can improvise.

Also because of their small number they have to

b.) conserve manpower and stocks (so a Winter War scenario where the Russians knew that they will run out of soldiers later than the Finns run out of bullet is possible) c.) cultural assimilation (so not the Borg type, but the American one ) is a real danger

So I think there is potential in such scenario (indeed i am thinking in such a fanfic, but stupid things like real life job take too much time )

[Transbot9]

Japan is actually a good example of rapid modernization - granted, it slows my initial concept of the upgrade time frame (slightly), but it is supportive. Japan went from a feudal state with primitive smooth bore guns to the Battleship Yamato in well under a century - to where American received technological leaps from them post WW2. Feddies don't have to innovate their way to SW Tech, they just need to be educated. Politically & economically, they aren't worth a damn to the galaxy at large (except as an emerging market) beyond a few interesting tricks (replicators could cause some interesting issues with the economy of wholesale (simple) goods and foodstuffs), so they're likely to be largely ignored. So it might be New Republic or even Legacy era before Federation ships would be up to SW standards.

[Ritterin Sophia]

A clever ST person could operate a blaster

I'd argue this. Granted if you mean pull trigger and fire, but unless stun is a switch like select fire rifles and yield is a dial you aren't going to get the majority of functions since all instructions for the weapon will be in Aurebesh. This means no idea how to change out a blaster pack, no clue how to utilize the sight aperture or scopes, no idea how to do even the most basic of maintenance, no stun setting, and no adjusting the yield from manstopper to M384 40mm grenade or even the setting that allowed the stormies to blast through an airlock door on a Corvette (the latter two are going to start eating up ammunition fast if that's the last setting the previous owner left their weapon on).

So yeah, you could say he knows how to use it, but it'd be akin to saying my mom knows how to operate an FN MAG.

[Ritterin Sophia]

-snip-

Because a second rate regional power advancing a number of decades in a short amount of time with major ties to other more advanced nations in very close proximity to them is completely comparable to a race of beings that control a fraction of a quarter of the galaxy advancing to be equal to a twenty-five thousand year old galactic hegemon with the ability to build moon sized starships that casually blow planets into so much stellar debris...

PS: Sorry for the double post, I missed this little spot of stupidity.

[Serafine666]

I'd argue this. Granted if you mean pull trigger and fire, but unless stun is a switch like select fire rifles and yield is a dial you aren't going to get the majority of functions since all instructions for the weapon will be in Aurebesh. This means no idea how to change out a blaster pack, no clue how to utilize the sight aperture or scopes, no idea how to do even the most basic of maintenance, no stun setting, and no adjusting the yield from manstopper to M384 40mm grenade or even the setting that allowed the stormies to blast through an airlock door on a Corvette (the latter two are going to start eating up ammunition fast if that's the last setting the previous owner left their weapon on).

So yeah, you could say he knows how to use it, but it'd be akin to saying my mom knows how to operate an FN MAG.

That is precisely what I meant: like most well-designed military weapons, a gun (in this case, a blaster) is highly effective but also very simple. We can safely assume that Luke Skywalker had few if any occasions to pick up an E9 but when trading shots with the stormtroopers over that pit, the weapon was simple enough that he could "point and click" as it were. Like him, an ST person would not be good or even all that competent with it but if they had ever operated a phaser rifle (we know that Luke was familiar with a bolt rifle or similar weapon because he grabbed one from his speeder when going to "check out" the Banthas in ANH) or any similar weapon (like Worf's bazooka knockoff), they'd be able to "point and click" as well.

[Transbot9]

-Snip-

Go reread your history. Britain and then Germany weren't exactly regional (despite Europe's imperialism affecting the region), although the US was probably the earliest source of modernization as we were the ones that forced Japan open (and we were closer, yet still an ocean away). While it may not be a perfect analogy, it is a good example of rapid modernization. The Federation isn't isolationist (Nobody needs to park an ISD in orbit around Earth in order to force them to open up), and a number of civilized SW worlds would end up close enough to at least begin trading. Starfleet is naturally curious and every Federation scientist would be jumping at any opportunities to learn this stuff. Heck, if Earth ends up near, say, Naboo, they could learn a shit ton just by sending a delegation. They wouldn't even need that to get started - just barter for Holonet access and start downloading. Sure, they won't understand a lot of it off the bat, but they would learn where to ask questions, where to get some used textbooks, etc. What barriers exist to keep them from learning general information? Language? One of the things that ST Tech got right was their universal translator (Plothole filler or not, the darn thing works and usually works very, very well). With a basic enough textbook on molecular metallurgy, your average Federation scientist would be able to pick up the general concepts pretty darn quick. Plus, Starfleet has shown that in most cases, they can figure out at least basic usage of crazy alien technology in a really, really short amount of time (especially reading crazy bullshit alien displays in an unknown language).

Again, the key isn't innovation, it is education - and the feddies have gotten pretty darn good at learning. Just saying it's stupid is a cheap cop-out.

[bz249]

With a basic enough textbook on molecular metallurgy, your average Federation scientist would be able to pick up the general concepts pretty darn quick. Plus, Starfleet has shown that in most cases, they can figure out at least basic usage of crazy alien technology in a really, really short amount of time (especially reading crazy bullshit alien displays in an unknown language).

Again, the key isn't innovation, it is education - and the feddies have gotten pretty darn good at learning. Just saying it's stupid is a cheap cop-out.

Have you ever participated in a higher education activity either as university student or professor? Well because I have (both sides), so I tell you how it is in real life, with people of slightly above average intelligence (university students) .

Learning to operate a rare high tech machine (for the ST guy pretty everything qualifies as a rare high tech machine, since they have no previous knowledge with them) is around 1-2 month. And this is basic user level operation when you can work if everything functions properly, but you are unable to do troubleshooting or exchange any wearing parts. That's another 5-12 month and still: all you are capable of is to operate the machine, detect and correct the usual errors and replace what should be replaced regularly. And this is one machine. This is what people learn during their Master period, to work alone with 1-3 complex machines. After 1-3 years they learn how to maintain and/or improve it repair the not so usual malfunctions, explore the limits etc.

Learning some theory and the application of a certain theory is a similar process with identical timescales. Oh and this is the schedule with good support from the experts.