Weaponized red matter (ST XI spoilers)

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Re: Weaponized red matter (ST XI spoilers)

Post by Civil War Man » 2009-06-16 04:54pm

I think Red Matter's potential to be weaponized may be understated. Granted, it would suffer from the same problems as mass-produced Genesis Devices, since an enemy like the Empire would likely resort to genocidal measures after it's been used once. But it seems like it would only need an improved delivery system to be able to be an effective weapon of mass destruction.

Especially if you take into consideration that Nero was a miner, not a military commander. That, at least, seemed to imply to me that his ship was mostly a retrofitted mining vessel (I don't remember the movie stating whether it was a mining vessel or if Nero hijacked a warship).

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Re: Weaponized red matter (ST XI spoilers)

Post by Serafina » 2009-06-16 07:21pm

We have plenty of indication that his ship was a mining vessel (e.g., the "torpedoes" are mining charges).

The delivery system does not seem to be a problem - just build a torpedo that can transport it. Given that standard torpedoes are able to confine antimatter, that should not be too much of a problem.

However, we saw a shitload of this stuff scoring a direct hit on Neros ship, and it did not do that much damage.
Besides, you popably have to score direct hits to do any damage at all with it, which is a significant disadvantage.

And even the best delivery system needs to reach a planet (i was talking about ships until now) - unless the Federation starts to build something like the Galaxy Gun or a lot of small suicide vessels (both are out of their technology/against all they ever did), they do no really have a chance against the empire. After all, we have no indication that they can take any more damage than before.
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Re: Weaponized red matter (ST XI spoilers)

Post by Civil War Man » 2009-06-16 08:27pm

As I said, it wouldn't do much good against an enemy with the resources of the Galactic Empire. But the fact that a mining vessel (albeit one with technology that is several hundred years beyond what anyone else can bring to bear) can do that much damage suggests that a few years/decades of R&D would definitely have altered the balance of power in the Milky Way.

Especially if they figure out how to produce more red matter, at which point a sufficiently militaristic government would probably start drawing up plans for red matter ships in the same way that the US has ballistic missile subs.

And even if they didn't destroy the entire planet, I imagine that some kind of sci-fi bunker buster loaded up with red matter could do a lot of damage to inhabited areas of a planet if you dropped it into a populated area or maybe an active volcano. Unfortunately I have no inkling as to how much considering that red matter is pure vibranium.

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Re: Weaponized red matter (ST XI spoilers)

Post by Darth Wong » 2009-06-17 12:43pm

Civil War Man wrote:As I said, it wouldn't do much good against an enemy with the resources of the Galactic Empire. But the fact that a mining vessel (albeit one with technology that is several hundred years beyond what anyone else can bring to bear) can do that much damage suggests that a few years/decades of R&D would definitely have altered the balance of power in the Milky Way.
I don't really see why it's relevant that Narada was a mining vessel. The red matter was from Spock's ship, not the Narada. Narada did not even have facilities to contain the stuff, so they just kept Spock's ship sitting in the central grotto.
Especially if they figure out how to produce more red matter, at which point a sufficiently militaristic government would probably start drawing up plans for red matter ships in the same way that the US has ballistic missile subs.

And even if they didn't destroy the entire planet, I imagine that some kind of sci-fi bunker buster loaded up with red matter could do a lot of damage to inhabited areas of a planet if you dropped it into a populated area or maybe an active volcano. Unfortunately I have no inkling as to how much considering that red matter is pure vibranium.
Frankly, you can pretty much say that red matter is whatever you want it to be, given that its behaviour doesn't make any sense and conforms to no known physical laws.
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Re: Weaponized red matter (ST XI spoilers)

Post by Civil War Man » 2009-06-17 06:03pm

Darth Wong wrote:I don't really see why it's relevant that Narada was a mining vessel. The red matter was from Spock's ship, not the Narada. Narada did not even have facilities to contain the stuff, so they just kept Spock's ship sitting in the central grotto.
The only point I saw behind the Narada being a mining and not a military vessel is that it means the laser to get down to the core is a total hack job. Similar to disabling the safeties on a nail gun and shooting someone with it. Sure, it'll probably get the job done (for certain definitions of "done"), but unless you lack the resources to acquire one, you're much better off using a conventional gun.

It was only a comment on the means of delivery, not of the red matter itself.
Frankly, you can pretty much say that red matter is whatever you want it to be, given that its behaviour doesn't make any sense and conforms to no known physical laws.
Hence the comparison to vibranium, the only bullshit comic book metal that outdoes adamantium for total quantity of bullshit.

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Re: Weaponized red matter (ST XI spoilers)

Post by Kamarov » 2009-11-01 06:32pm

Well, but what about a red-matter-tipped torpedo fired into a star? For example - destroying the Coruscant's sun would surely bring death to Imperial Capitol World.
And counting that SW have NO MEANS on intercepting warp-capable ships AT warp-speeds

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Re: Weaponized red matter (ST XI spoilers)

Post by Ghost Rider » 2009-11-01 06:40pm

Kamarov wrote:Well, but what about a red-matter-tipped torpedo fired into a star? For example - destroying the Coruscant's sun would surely bring death to Imperial Capitol World.
And counting that SW have NO MEANS on intercepting warp-capable ships AT warp-speeds
*sigh*

Please read said rules.

June 17th to now is a wee bit over a month and your statement is akin to the variety of "Why doesn't the Federation use xxx super device!!!". It is a distinct overdone point. But for the sake of that you might demonstrate something, I will ask the following.

So...Prove that SW has NO way of intercepting a warp capable vessel?
The Federation or any of the conventional ST powers can make said torpedo?
How they are going to pop into an area and not get spotted by said SW powers?

I think this will cover the very basic problems of your one shot spam.
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Re: Weaponized red matter (ST XI spoilers)

Post by Kamarov » 2009-11-01 07:00pm

> The Federation or any of the conventional ST powers can make said torpedo?
Federation could - if it have sufficient amount of red matter. Nero DID made such torpedoes - by inserting a red-matter container into a standard torpedo
> So...Prove that SW has NO way of intercepting a warp capable vessel?
No sign of technology similar to warp-drive in SW. Just no signs. Hyperdrive works on just another principle - by plunging the ship into hyperspace - in real space SW ships are limited to sublight velocities.

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Re: Weaponized red matter (ST XI spoilers)

Post by Ghost Rider » 2009-11-01 07:10pm

Kamarov wrote:> The Federation or any of the conventional ST powers can make said torpedo?
Federation could - if it have sufficient amount of red matter. Nero DID made such torpedoes - by inserting a red-matter container into a standard torpedo
Because that why the movie demonstrated he lobbed them at worlds.
> So...Prove that SW has NO way of intercepting a warp capable vessel?
No sign of technology similar to warp-drive in SW. Just no signs. Hyperdrive works on just another principle - by plunging the ship into hyperspace - in real space SW ships are limited to sublight velocities.
I see...so nothing whatsoever, on the basis of your say so.

But c'mon....something more then your opinion of the events and assumptions.
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Re: Weaponized red matter (ST XI spoilers)

Post by NecronLord » 2009-11-03 04:49pm

The problem with Red Matter is that you need to deliver it to the core. A specialised drilling weapon would be necessary, and honestly, that entails getting shot in the face by the defences of any planet that's not as much of a dirt ball as Tatooine.

As for delivering it to a sun; yeah. Right. Maybe next film they'll put in some evidence that makes that plausible.
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Re: Weaponized red matter (ST XI spoilers)

Post by Serafina » 2009-11-03 07:07pm

NecronLord wrote:The problem with Red Matter is that you need to deliver it to the core. A specialised drilling weapon would be necessary, and honestly, that entails getting shot in the face by the defences of any planet that's not as much of a dirt ball as Tatooine.

As for delivering it to a sun; yeah. Right. Maybe next film they'll put in some evidence that makes that plausible.
Heck, even Tatooine would be far from defenseless - the Falcon alone could take out the Narrada or any ST-ship with ease, and the Hutts have propably way nastier ships there - not to speak of all these Bounty Hunters.

Oh, and Kamarov:
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Re: Weaponized red matter (ST XI spoilers)

Post by NecronLord » 2009-11-04 03:03am

Serafina wrote:Heck, even Tatooine would be far from defenseless - the Falcon alone could take out the Narrada or any ST-ship with ease, and the Hutts have propably way nastier ships there - not to speak of all these Bounty Hunters.
Remember, evidence from the other series doesn't necesserily apply to the reboot. And honestly, about all we can say about nST weapons is that the Nerada requires a specialised drilling device to swiftly burn a hole through the planetary crust of Vulcan. There's no reason to think something like the Falcon could take on a nST Federation warship.
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Re: Weaponized red matter (ST XI spoilers)

Post by RecklessPrudence » 2009-11-08 03:03am

NecronLord wrote:There's no reason to think something like the Falcon could take on a nST Federation warship.
Except that the Nerada was not being utterly steamrollered by the Connies and the like? I mean, yeah, the Nerada was a couple of hundred years' more advanced, and, according to the comics, had Borg stuff, but it was still not a dedicated warship. The fact that the ships of the nST universe didn't seem to have a significant advantage over it would seem to implie that they still wouldn't fair terribly well against SW ships.

Even something like the Falcon, which is not a shining example of SW military tech, either, could probably at least put up a better fight against the Narada than the Enterprise, if only by virtue of being able to dodge/confound it's 'torpedoes'. Against a Federation warship... I'd still give the Falcon at least even odds.

Not the most scientific analysis, I admit, but I think it still has relevance.
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Re: Weaponized red matter (ST XI spoilers)

Post by NecronLord » 2009-11-11 05:53pm

RecklessPrudence wrote:Except that the Nerada was not being utterly steamrollered by the Connies and the like? I mean, yeah, the Nerada was a couple of hundred years' more advanced, and, according to the comics, had Borg stuff, but it was still not a dedicated warship. The fact that the ships of the nST universe didn't seem to have a significant advantage over it would seem to implie that they still wouldn't fair terribly well against SW ships.

Even something like the Falcon, which is not a shining example of SW military tech, either, could probably at least put up a better fight against the Narada than the Enterprise, if only by virtue of being able to dodge/confound it's 'torpedoes'. Against a Federation warship... I'd still give the Falcon at least even odds.

Not the most scientific analysis, I admit, but I think it still has relevance.
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Re: Weaponized red matter (ST XI spoilers)

Post by RecklessPrudence » 2009-11-11 09:48pm

NecronLord wrote:There is no evidence in the new film that Spock-prime came from the TNG timeline.
Oh, okay. I assumed otherwise. :oops:
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Re: Weaponized red matter (ST XI spoilers)

Post by NettiWelho » 2009-11-16 01:40pm

Serafina wrote:[...]the Falcon alone could take out the Narrada or any ST-ship with ease[...]
I'm not so sure the Voth would agree with that assessment

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Re: Weaponized red matter (ST XI spoilers)

Post by bz249 » 2009-11-16 04:23pm

NettiWelho wrote:
Serafina wrote:[...]the Falcon alone could take out the Narrada or any ST-ship with ease[...]
I'm not so sure the Voth would agree with that assessment
Since Janeway (although an idiot with a certificate) thought that they have a fighting chance... and indeed the Voth decided to overwrite their computer system, then the Falcon (the ship which penetrated the Death Star core) should have at least a chance. ;)

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Re: Weaponized red matter (ST XI spoilers)

Post by budweiser » 2010-09-08 12:34pm

spikenigma wrote::D

...only this site could argue that mass-produced portable blackhole generators can't touch Wars

what about the Vong and their Dovin basals? still got beat

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Re: Weaponized red matter (ST XI spoilers)

Post by Darwin » 2010-09-08 06:27pm

holy thread necromancy.

So, you're new here.

may want to nose over at the forum rules before Vympel rips you several new orifices.

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Re: Weaponized red matter (ST XI spoilers)

Post by Dalton » 2010-09-08 06:32pm

Whoops.
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