Weaponized red matter (ST XI spoilers)

SWvST: the subject of the main site.

Moderator: Vympel

Locked
User avatar
TithonusSyndrome
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2569
Joined: 2006-10-10 08:15pm
Location: The Money Store

Weaponized red matter (ST XI spoilers)

Post by TithonusSyndrome » 2009-05-11 02:00am

I don't hold any expectation of a return to a time when lots of Trekkies would flood this forum with tactics XYZ that they assume could turn back the tide of an Imperial invasion, but I guess if anything could do it, it would be XI and the knowledge that the Federation (or at least the Vulcan Science Academy) in the 2380s and onward can apparently mass-produce black hole juice. I don't see any reason why this would be more effective than supposedly cranking out Genesis devices, but if I'm wrong then I stand to be corrected - could the Feddies beat back the Empire by sucking up their fleets with red matter black holes?
Image

User avatar
Darksider
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5271
Joined: 2002-12-13 02:56pm
Location: America's decaying industrial armpit.
Contact:

Re: Weaponized red matter (ST XI spoilers)

Post by Darksider » 2009-05-11 02:26am

At which point the imperial ships will be sent back in time to fuck up the federation's past.

Still, the singularities didn't seem too large (barely large enough to swallow the Narada), so I doubt they could suck up an entire imperial fleet given the average distance between ships shown in the films, and the empire can afford to lose a star destroyer or two (or two thousand) and still fuck up the Trek universe.

It would be more viable as a "scorched earth" weapon. That is, wait until the empire deploys troops and occupies a planet, then transport red matter into the core and suck it into wherever the fuck the magic black hole sends them, but I seriously doubt that the Federation has the stones to try that.
And this is why you don't watch anything produced by Ronald D. Moore after he had his brain surgically removed and replaced with a bag of elephant semen.-Gramzamber, on why Caprica sucks

User avatar
The Romulan Republic
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 20963
Joined: 2008-10-15 01:37am

Re: Weaponized red matter (ST XI spoilers)

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2009-05-11 02:56am

Darksider wrote:At which point the imperial ships will be sent back in time to fuck up the federation's past.
The existing timeline turned out pretty well for Palpatine. Are you sure he'd so casually fuck it up?

Besides, the Empire's never managed to time travel that I've ever heard of, and even if they stole and somehow reverse-engineered the tech, would they actually be changing that timeline, or simply fucking with an alternate one?
Still, the singularities didn't seem too large (barely large enough to swallow the Narada), so I doubt they could suck up an entire imperial fleet given the average distance between ships shown in the films, and the empire can afford to lose a star destroyer or two (or two thousand) and still fuck up the Trek universe.


Thus showing that the above is probably a moot point.
It would be more viable as a "scorched earth" weapon. That is, wait until the empire deploys troops and occupies a planet, then transport red matter into the core and suck it into wherever the fuck the magic black hole sends them, but I seriously doubt that the Federation has the stones to try that.
Considering that Nero had to use that big tube to drill into the core and place the weapon, I'd think Imperial defenders would have ample time to blast someone trying that. Maybe if their were some way to pre-plant it and then remote-detonate it.

I wonder how effective it would be if someone just set of the weapon in the atmosphere or orbit, rather than drilling into the planet?

User avatar
TithonusSyndrome
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2569
Joined: 2006-10-10 08:15pm
Location: The Money Store

Re: Weaponized red matter (ST XI spoilers)

Post by TithonusSyndrome » 2009-05-11 02:57am

Darksider wrote:At which point the imperial ships will be sent back in time to fuck up the federation's past.
I guess Spock and Pike referred to what Nero did to Vulcan as "genocide" out of simple misunderstanding, and the entire planet had just been inconveniently sent back in time with all of it's inhabitants perfectly fine.
Still, the singularities didn't seem too large (barely large enough to swallow the Narada), so I doubt they could suck up an entire imperial fleet given the average distance between ships shown in the films, and the empire can afford to lose a star destroyer or two (or two thousand) and still fuck up the Trek universe.
I guess that depends on their capacity for making red matter, then. They're going to have to use saturation attacks in order to overcome the point defenses of the Imperials no matter what the terms of engagement are.
It would be more viable as a "scorched earth" weapon. That is, wait until the empire deploys troops and occupies a planet, then transport red matter into the core and suck it into wherever the fuck the magic black hole sends them, but I seriously doubt that the Federation has the stones to try that.
If they armed every Federation planet with one without concealing the fact and entered into a game of brinksmanship with the Empire where they would lose any planet they tried to seize and they knew it, maybe. Nothing I suppose an Emperor's Hand or other sufficiently capable infiltrator couldn't overcome though.
Image

User avatar
Darksider
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5271
Joined: 2002-12-13 02:56pm
Location: America's decaying industrial armpit.
Contact:

Re: Weaponized red matter (ST XI spoilers)

Post by Darksider » 2009-05-11 03:27am

TithonusSyndrome wrote:
Darksider wrote:At which point the imperial ships will be sent back in time to fuck up the federation's past.
I guess Spock and Pike referred to what Nero did to Vulcan as "genocide" out of simple misunderstanding, and the entire planet had just been inconveniently sent back in time with all of it's inhabitants perfectly fine.
Except the singularity literally ripped the planet apart from the inside out as it swallowed it, whereas the Nerada (a modified mining ship) and the tiny-ass spockmobile both survived the transition relativly unphased. A Star Destroyer is a far sturdier ship than either of the two.
TithonusSyndrome wrote: I guess that depends on their capacity for making red matter, then. They're going to have to use saturation attacks in order to overcome the point defenses of the Imperials no matter what the terms of engagement are.
Given the Empire's vastly superior range and firepower I question the Federation's ability to deploy the weapon effectively on a large scale against them. the Decalithium mineral required for making red matter is supposedly described as extremely rare in the prequel comic Countdown and they're going to lose a lot of ships in the attempt.


Even if the Federation has the needed testicular fortitude to annihilate their own planets rather than see them fall (something I very much doubt is the case for the 24th century feddies). All they may end up doing is making the empire go "these fuckers are crazy" and glass federation planets instead of trying to occupy them.

The tech and size disparity between the two sides leaves the Federation so utterly fucked that no matter what kind of wonder weapons they try to deploy against the empire and no matter what last-ditch strategies they trot out they are destined to lose the confrontation.

Kinda like Nazi Germanny if it were the size of cuba and only had a navy with PT boats.
And this is why you don't watch anything produced by Ronald D. Moore after he had his brain surgically removed and replaced with a bag of elephant semen.-Gramzamber, on why Caprica sucks

User avatar
Oskuro
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2698
Joined: 2005-05-25 06:10am
Location: Barcelona, Spain

Re: Weaponized red matter (ST XI spoilers)

Post by Oskuro » 2009-05-11 04:43am

Also, the spockmobile had to crash deep into the Narada for the Red Matter to have a decent (yet underwhelming) effect. I very much doubt a red matter weapon would get past the Impreial point defense, never mind the shields. And even if they are not science vessels, IDs probably have decent enough sensors to detect a slow-forming black hole and hyperjump out of there, or at least impulse their way away from it.
unsigned

User avatar
Ted C
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4486
Joined: 2002-07-07 11:00am
Location: Nashville, TN
Contact:

Re: Weaponized red matter (ST XI spoilers)

Post by Ted C » 2009-05-11 09:31am

Darksider wrote:It would be more viable as a "scorched earth" weapon. That is, wait until the empire deploys troops and occupies a planet, then transport red matter into the core and suck it into wherever the fuck the magic black hole sends them, but I seriously doubt that the Federation has the stones to try that.
It's obviously not that easy. If you could just transport the red matter down to the planet, Nero would have been doing it instead of sitting in low orbit for an extended time to drill a deep hole down which he could drop the red matter charge.
"This is supposed to be a happy occasion... Let's not bicker and argue about who killed who."
-- The King of Swamp Castle, Monty Python and the Holy Grail

"Nothing of consequence happened today. " -- Diary of King George III, July 4, 1776

"This is not bad; this is a conspiracy to remove happiness from existence. It seeks to wrap its hedgehog hand around the still beating heart of the personification of good and squeeze until it is stilled."
-- Chuck Sonnenburg on Voyager's "Elogium"

User avatar
spikenigma
Village Idiot
Posts: 342
Joined: 2004-06-04 09:07am
Location: United Kingdom
Contact:

Re: Weaponized red matter (ST XI spoilers)

Post by spikenigma » 2009-05-11 10:14am

:D

...only this site could argue that mass-produced portable blackhole generators can't touch Wars
There is no knowledge that is not power...

User avatar
Ghost Rider
Spirit of Vengeance
Posts: 27779
Joined: 2002-09-24 01:48pm
Location: DC...looking up from the gutters to the stars

Re: Weaponized red matter (ST XI spoilers)

Post by Ghost Rider » 2009-05-11 10:16am

spikenigma wrote::D

...only this site could argue that mass-produced portable blackhole generators can't touch Wars
Yeah, given the evidence available has demonstrated what this particular weapon is? :roll:

Thank you for the one liner retard statment.
MM /CF/WG/BOTM/JL/Original Warsie/ACPATHNTDWATGODW FOREVER!!

Sometimes we can choose the path we follow. Sometimes our choices are made for us. And sometimes we have no choice at all

Saying and doing are chocolate and concrete

User avatar
spikenigma
Village Idiot
Posts: 342
Joined: 2004-06-04 09:07am
Location: United Kingdom
Contact:

Re: Weaponized red matter (ST XI spoilers)

Post by spikenigma » 2009-05-11 12:32pm

Ghost Rider wrote: Yeah, given the evidence available has demonstrated what this particular weapon is? :roll:

Thank you for the one liner retard statment.
...and thanks for the misspelt, grammatically incorrect retarded reply :)
There is no knowledge that is not power...

Samuel
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4750
Joined: 2008-10-23 11:36am

Re: Weaponized red matter (ST XI spoilers)

Post by Samuel » 2009-05-11 12:43pm

spikenigma wrote::D

...only this site could argue that mass-produced portable blackhole generators can't touch Wars
Singularities aren't dangerous unless you are right on top of them if they are that small (and since it didn't immediately kill Nero's ship they probably are). Assuming that the red matter doesn't simply make matter from nothing, the new black hole has the same amount of matter that the red matter has andit is only a problem if it is right on top of you. Which requires it to get close enough in the first place.

Don't poke Ghost Rider. He is scary.

User avatar
Bounty
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10767
Joined: 2005-01-20 08:33am
Location: Belgium

Re: Weaponized red matter (ST XI spoilers)

Post by Bounty » 2009-05-11 12:50pm

And he was technically using a grammatically sound sentence, it just doesn't flow well.
mass-produced portable blackhole generators
There are three things wrong with this sentence:

- The red matter isn't mass-produced. Spock's stockpile was all the refined red matter in the galaxy, and it was refined from a tiny known cache of the material.

- Nor is it man-portable. Yes, Spock used a tiny container, so technically you can lug it around - but the delivery system needed to collapse a planet is a full mining ship; that small container needs a massive infrastructure and a lot of time to be used with anything approaching efficiency. Just throwing the stuff at an enemy - even if you throw the entire known supply of it as Spock did - doesn't do much more than slowly destroy one vessel.

- It doesn't generate much of a black hole, either. Yes, they called it that, but what it generated was in practice a weird jeebly that hardly behaved the way a black hole should behave.

User avatar
Oskuro
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2698
Joined: 2005-05-25 06:10am
Location: Barcelona, Spain

Re: Weaponized red matter (ST XI spoilers)

Post by Oskuro » 2009-05-11 01:03pm

spikenigma wrote::D
...only this site could argue that mass-produced portable blackhole generators can't touch Wars
The spockmobile wouldn't have touched the Narada if it wasn't for the Enterprise providing point defense, so please explain how the events of the movie lend credence to the Red Matter being viable as a weapon aganist any competent enemy?

The issue here, in fact, is not the Red Matter, but the delivery method. If the Enterprise managed to beam a single droplet into an ISD, it might be a one-hit kill, but it's been extensively argued around here that Trek has no means to penetrate the defenses of SW-level vessels, so whatever they are loading their warheads with is, ultimately, irrelevant.
unsigned

User avatar
Rochey
Youngling
Posts: 80
Joined: 2009-01-01 10:12am
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Re: Weaponized red matter (ST XI spoilers)

Post by Rochey » 2009-05-11 01:16pm

The technique of destroying planets that we see Nero use is an incredibly bad method of planet-busting, particularly against Wars.

Firstly, it seems to require that a hole be blasted through the crust of the planet, suggesting that the RM needs to hit the planet's interior directly. If he could have beamed it, then he'd hardly have been using this method, suggesting that it can't actualy be beamed.

That a hole has to be drilled in the planet first is a major weakness. The ship has to remain stationary for an extended period of time, with no interuptions in the process. This gives the defenders time to scramble defensive vessels against the attacking ship, and leaves the attackers in a very bad position should they be attacked.

The method of drilling is also a fairly big weakness. The drill (for lack of a better term) was suspended on what is basicaly a long metal chain. As we saw in the film itself, this is a major weak point, and the chain itself isn't too hard to destroy. A single fighter could sever the drill, ending the attack quite nicely.

Then there's the issue of planetary shields. Given that Alderaan's shield managed to stand up the a superlaser blast (albeit for just a moment), it's quite possible that the Narada's beam simply wouldn't have the strength to burn through the shield before reinforcements arrive from nearby systems.

Yet another problem comes from the possibility of planetary defences. A single ion cannon such as the one the Rebels had on Hoth would be more than adequate to end the threat of the Narada.

So, basicaly, it sucks as an offensive weapon. Using it as a scorched-earth tactic might work though, but that would require you to burn holes into your planet before the enemy shows up. I'm no expert, but I think I'm safe in saying that that would seriously fuck things up for the planet itself.

Samuel
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4750
Joined: 2008-10-23 11:36am

Re: Weaponized red matter (ST XI spoilers)

Post by Samuel » 2009-05-11 01:18pm

I don't think it would screw up the planet- the problem is such holes would immediately reseal. And the vaporized rock would flood out, cool and rain down. I'm pretty sure that would be both pretty and very bad.

User avatar
Darksider
Sith Acolyte
Posts: 5271
Joined: 2002-12-13 02:56pm
Location: America's decaying industrial armpit.
Contact:

Re: Weaponized red matter (ST XI spoilers)

Post by Darksider » 2009-05-11 05:58pm

spikenigma wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote: Yeah, given the evidence available has demonstrated what this particular weapon is? :roll:

Thank you for the one liner retard statment.
...and thanks for the misspelt, grammatically incorrect retarded reply :)
Because spelling and grammar mistakes immediately refute an argument's legitimacy!

:roll:

How about you provide some fucking evidence that these black holes would prove dangerous to ISDs in space when the whole fucking store of red matter going off inside Nero's ship didn't immediately destroy it.
And this is why you don't watch anything produced by Ronald D. Moore after he had his brain surgically removed and replaced with a bag of elephant semen.-Gramzamber, on why Caprica sucks

User avatar
Havok
Miscreant
Posts: 13016
Joined: 2005-07-02 10:41pm
Location: Oakland CA
Contact:

Re: Weaponized red matter (ST XI spoilers)

Post by Havok » 2009-05-11 07:44pm

In fact, one drop and the whole ball seem to have the exact same size effect... just about the radius of the Narrada.
Image
It's 106 miles to Chicago, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark... and we're wearing sunglasses.
Hit it.
Blank Yellow (NSFW)
"Mostly Harmless Nutcase"

User avatar
TithonusSyndrome
Sith Devotee
Posts: 2569
Joined: 2006-10-10 08:15pm
Location: The Money Store

Re: Weaponized red matter (ST XI spoilers)

Post by TithonusSyndrome » 2009-05-11 07:51pm

Havok wrote:In fact, one drop and the whole ball seem to have the exact same size effect... just about the radius of the Narrada.
I thought about that, but it could also just be that the Narada contributes less mass to the black hole than the core of a planet would, so you'd need more to get the same effect.

Either way, considering that apparently red matter needs to be refined from something rare, this whole topic was over before I even realized it, and I had a pretty low expectation for outcomes.
Image

User avatar
Ghost Rider
Spirit of Vengeance
Posts: 27779
Joined: 2002-09-24 01:48pm
Location: DC...looking up from the gutters to the stars

Re: Weaponized red matter (ST XI spoilers)

Post by Ghost Rider » 2009-05-11 10:56pm

spikenigma wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote: Yeah, given the evidence available has demonstrated what this particular weapon is? :roll:

Thank you for the one liner retard statment.
...and thanks for the misspelt, grammatically incorrect retarded reply :)
And to be blunt, goodbye idiot. Being a spamwhore who's only purpose is to press buttons on your keyboard and press submit with your particular record? Sorry, you do not get to pass Go, do not collect $200.
MM /CF/WG/BOTM/JL/Original Warsie/ACPATHNTDWATGODW FOREVER!!

Sometimes we can choose the path we follow. Sometimes our choices are made for us. And sometimes we have no choice at all

Saying and doing are chocolate and concrete

User avatar
open_sketchbook
Jedi Master
Posts: 1145
Joined: 2008-11-03 05:43pm
Location: Ottawa

Re: Weaponized red matter (ST XI spoilers)

Post by open_sketchbook » 2009-05-12 08:44am

In the interest of hilarity, I'd like to point out a planetoid in Star Wars with a hole pre-drilled to the core.
Spoiler
Image
Actual delivery would be horribly difficult, but the thought it comedy gold as far as I'm concerned. The image of the Death Star collapsing into itself is both glorious and hilarious.
1980s Rock is to music what Giant Robot shows are to anime
Think about it.

Cruising low in my N-1 blasting phat beats,
showin' off my chrome on them Coruscant streets
Got my 'saber on my belt and my gat by side,
this here yellow plane makes for a sick ride

User avatar
Darth Hoth
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2319
Joined: 2008-02-15 09:36am

Re: Weaponized red matter (ST XI spoilers)

Post by Darth Hoth » 2009-05-12 09:46am

I may be screwing up my mathematics, but considering the Death Star's hyperdense hypermatter fuel and reactants, which it by necessity must store in large volumes, it must have some exceptional gravity management technologies to handle that mass. Could it not use those same resources to contain a miniature black hole of this variety?
"But there's no story past Episode VI, there's just no story. It's a certain story about Anakin Skywalker and once Anakin Skywalker dies, that's kind of the end of the story. There is no story about Luke Skywalker, I mean apart from the books."

-George "Evil" Lucas

User avatar
Darth Wong
Sith Lord
Sith Lord
Posts: 70027
Joined: 2002-07-03 12:25am
Location: Toronto, Canada
Contact:

Re: Weaponized red matter (ST XI spoilers)

Post by Darth Wong » 2009-05-12 12:44pm

Darth Hoth wrote:I may be screwing up my mathematics, but considering the Death Star's hyperdense hypermatter fuel and reactants, which it by necessity must store in large volumes, it must have some exceptional gravity management technologies to handle that mass. Could it not use those same resources to contain a miniature black hole of this variety?
Hypermatter is said to be complex, ie- in the "imaginary numbers" regime, so it is unknown what kind of energy density or space-time curvature it would create. Stephen Hawking at one time proposed that a "baby universe" in imaginary space-time is where you would go if you fell into a black hole (not that you would be intact, mind you). So an amusing side-effect of the "complex mass" interpretation of hypermatter from the ICS may be that each starship with hypermatter fuel is connected to a little "baby universe".
Image
"It's not evil for God to do it. Or for someone to do it at God's command."- Jonathan Boyd on baby-killing

"you guys are fascinated with the use of those "rules of logic" to the extent that you don't really want to discussus anything."- GC

"I do not believe Russian Roulette is a stupid act" - Embracer of Darkness

"Viagra commercials appear to save lives" - tharkûn on US health care.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Mike/RantMode/Blurbs.html

User avatar
Terralthra
Requiescat in Pace
Posts: 4741
Joined: 2007-10-05 09:55pm
Location: San Francisco, California, United States

Re: Weaponized red matter (ST XI spoilers)

Post by Terralthra » 2009-05-13 01:28am

Darksider wrote:Given the Empire's vastly superior range and firepower I question the Federation's ability to deploy the weapon effectively on a large scale against them. the Decalithium mineral required for making red matter is supposedly described as extremely rare in the prequel comic Countdown and they're going to lose a lot of ships in the attempt. ...
The tech and size disparity between the two sides leaves the Federation so utterly fucked that no matter what kind of wonder weapons they try to deploy against the empire and no matter what last-ditch strategies they trot out they are destined to lose the confrontation.
Not to jump on you specifically, but this is a new canon beginning, with new visuals that no one has been able to analyze yet. It's possible that in the rebooted Trek, the weapons, FTL drives, and therefore the power sources are comparably powered to Star Wars. I have no idea if that's actually true, nor does it begin to address the problem of strategic mismatch, but it's a bit premature to be declaring that the Empire still has a massive firepower advantage without doing some calculations on visuals from the new movie.

Samuel
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4750
Joined: 2008-10-23 11:36am

Re: Weaponized red matter (ST XI spoilers)

Post by Samuel » 2009-05-13 02:06am

Terralthra wrote:
Darksider wrote:Given the Empire's vastly superior range and firepower I question the Federation's ability to deploy the weapon effectively on a large scale against them. the Decalithium mineral required for making red matter is supposedly described as extremely rare in the prequel comic Countdown and they're going to lose a lot of ships in the attempt. ...
The tech and size disparity between the two sides leaves the Federation so utterly fucked that no matter what kind of wonder weapons they try to deploy against the empire and no matter what last-ditch strategies they trot out they are destined to lose the confrontation.
Not to jump on you specifically, but this is a new canon beginning, with new visuals that no one has been able to analyze yet. It's possible that in the rebooted Trek, the weapons, FTL drives, and therefore the power sources are comparably powered to Star Wars. I have no idea if that's actually true, nor does it begin to address the problem of strategic mismatch, but it's a bit premature to be declaring that the Empire still has a massive firepower advantage without doing some calculations on visuals from the new movie.
They aren't. If they were comparitively powered, Nero would have just slagged Earth or dumped the waste heat from the reactor into the atmosphere.

User avatar
Terralthra
Requiescat in Pace
Posts: 4741
Joined: 2007-10-05 09:55pm
Location: San Francisco, California, United States

Re: Weaponized red matter (ST XI spoilers)

Post by Terralthra » 2009-05-13 02:10am

Samuel wrote:They aren't. If they were comparitively powered, Nero would have just slagged Earth or dumped the waste heat from the reactor into the atmosphere.
Good point.

Locked