Woudn't change anything in a war but....

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spaceviking
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Woudn't change anything in a war but....

Postby spaceviking » 2008-06-10 05:42pm

Does the Federation have superior abilities in genetic engineering then the Empire? Ive never read the EU books but I don't think i have ever seen clone troopers ever approach the abilities of the augments, especially as seen in Enterprise. The only;y problem i see is if the Federation would be upscale to upscale their lenetic engineering abilities.

I know that the Federation doesn't practice widespread genetic engineering but as seen by the Darwin research station and Brashir they have not lost the ability.

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Postby Venator » 2008-06-10 05:51pm

The Augments of Enterprise were, admittedly, high-end* genetically engineered troopers; enhanced senses, reflexes, strength, and durability.

Of course, they might have been very handy in the Dominion War or fighting the Borg, but the Federation's nauseating legality prevented them from seeing use; the same would probably hold true for a conflict against the Empire.

I admittedly don't know much about genetic modification on the SW side; we know that they can mentally alter the Clone Troopers to follow orders unquestioningly, but beyond that I've not heard.

*High-end for Star Trek, not compared to the likes of Spartans or Space Marines.

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Postby spaceviking » 2008-06-10 05:57pm

Of course, they might have been very handy in the Dominion War or fighting the Borg, but the Federation's nauseating legality prevented them from seeing use; the same would probably hold true for a conflict against the Empire.


oh to clarify i didn't mean that superior troops wouldn't help in war but that it wouldn't change the eventual outcome of war between the Federation and thew Empire, as the Federation would be beaten with superior ships / heavy ground vehicles.

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Postby Ghost Rider » 2008-06-10 06:36pm

Same people who have immense trouble cloning a body part is not a good sign of anywhere near SW level genetic engineering...from the movies alone.
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Postby Venator » 2008-06-10 08:54pm

Ghost Rider wrote:Same people who have immense trouble cloning a body part is not a good sign of anywhere near SW level genetic engineering...from the movies alone.


Forgot completely about that.

Although, they have no problem reversing accelerated mutation that transforms humans into amphibians. Gods fucking damn Threshold....

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Postby CaptainZoidberg » 2008-06-10 10:50pm

Ghost Rider wrote:Same people who have immense trouble cloning a body part is not a good sign of anywhere near SW level genetic engineering...from the movies alone.


Why couldn't they just pump one out with the transporter?

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Postby Questor » 2008-06-10 10:55pm

CaptainZoidberg wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:Same people who have immense trouble cloning a body part is not a good sign of anywhere near SW level genetic engineering...from the movies alone.


Why couldn't they just pump one out with the transporter?


The replicator would also be possible, except for those "transcription errors" which I believe it was stated exist in transporters as well.

I think that was from an alternate universe episode when they were trying to verify that someone was not a clone.

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Postby Darth Wong » 2008-06-10 11:45pm

Venator wrote:The Augments of Enterprise were, admittedly, high-end* genetically engineered troopers; enhanced senses, reflexes, strength, and durability.

They were shit. Stupid, arrogant, foolish, and reckless. People only believe they have superior intelligence because they keep saying that they do. They certainly never demonstrate it. And in high-tech warfare, physical strength and reflexes are of very little value. This isn't Conan, folks.

Meanwhile, the Kaminoans demonstrated that they have enough control of genetic engineering to manipulate personality traits: something that the Federation clearly cannot do, since they can't make an augment who isn't an uncontrollably belligerent and foolishly reckless asshole.
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Postby Ghost Rider » 2008-06-11 12:03am

CaptainZoidberg wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:Same people who have immense trouble cloning a body part is not a good sign of anywhere near SW level genetic engineering...from the movies alone.


Why couldn't they just pump one out with the transporter?


And I'll bring up another one. Picard's fucking defective heart.

In the end, all this maybe, could've , should've, would've falls fucking flat when we see evidence that they couldn't when it counts and only perform feats at sheer random variables.
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Postby spaceviking » 2008-06-11 12:20am

Meanwhile, the Kaminoans demonstrated that they have enough control of genetic engineering to manipulate personality traits: something that the Federation clearly cannot do, since they can't make an augment who isn't an uncontrollably belligerent and foolishly reckless asshole.


The only augments seen were centuries old from pre warp times. Soong at least believed he could remove their aggressive tendencies.

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Postby Gullible Jones » 2008-06-11 01:12am

Venator wrote:
Ghost Rider wrote:Same people who have immense trouble cloning a body part is not a good sign of anywhere near SW level genetic engineering...from the movies alone.


Forgot completely about that.

Although, they have no problem reversing accelerated mutation that transforms humans into amphibians. Gods fucking damn Threshold....


IIRC Threshold got dropped from official cannon; later episodes refer to the warp 10 barrier never having been broken, at any rate.

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Postby NecronLord » 2008-06-11 04:04am

Venator wrote:Although, they have no problem reversing accelerated mutation that transforms humans into amphibians. Gods fucking damn Threshold....


Threshold is non-continuity. It has no value as a reference for further writing, to the point that Tom Paris explicitly says in a later episode "I have not travelled at warp 10." It is not really worth considering as canon, given the disdain and non-continuity status it was held in by the production staff.
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Postby Darth Hoth » 2008-06-11 04:37am

Of whatever importance it may be, Star Wars has the ability to perform augmentative genegineering, as per the enhanced humans in The Crystal Star. The technology is around, but evidently not in military use, suggesting that it is not cost-effective in comparison to actual performance.
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Postby Chris Parr » 2008-06-11 09:23am

Two words: "Sith Alchemy".

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Postby harbringer » 2008-06-11 10:48am

When producing clone armies the whole point would be mass volume production. Millions possibly trillions (depending on whether 3 million units is a trooper, rifle and armor or the unit that forms the base of the army (a squad/section or possibly platoon in current parlance). For an army designed for mass production they seem to have a good deal of strength to hoist the heavy blaster rifle in ATOC and great adaptability to fill all roles. Even if we allowed the enhanced and/or through act of Q the Jem Hadar to defend the federation I do not think that as a force they could achieve much compared to the movie clones in SW. If you include Thrawns clones and modified troopers I still don't think the ST troops have what it takes. Adding heavy equipment just makes the disparity worse.

Tactically the enhanced didn't seem to think through situations and the Jem Hadar tried storming a choke point. Clones in SW seem to get very proficient by the time they get to ROTS. Note I'm limiting this a little and despite ST not having the enhanced officially and the Jem Hadar more likely to destroy earth than defend it given ST what advantages seem reasonable to try to make this any sort of contest other than a butt kicking.
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Postby Ender » 2008-06-11 05:33pm

All other evidence aside, the greater diversity in alien species seen in SW over ST would point to them having a greater pool of data to draw upon. I'd imagine that that if nothing else would give them the edge because if they wanted to have an organism do a certain thing, they have the sequence to do that already in their database whereas ST might have to make it from scratch. This is a much more critical advantage then it seems at first blush, there is a reason Ventier went on that round the world bacteria harvesting trip.
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Postby Swindle1984 » 2008-06-11 06:23pm

Considering the severe phobia the Federation seems to have in regards to genetic engineering and especially cloning, to the point that Riker and Pulasky had no qualms whatsoever of murdering their own clones and no charges were ever filed against them for doing so, I'm quite certain the Federation would never even THINK to start doing genetic engineering to make super-soldiers to fight the Empire.

Especially since the Empire's conquest would be so swift that most Federation civilians would wake up in the morning to go to work and do a double-take when they saw stormtroopers directing traffic.
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Postby Venator » 2008-06-11 06:37pm

NecronLord wrote:
Venator wrote:Although, they have no problem reversing accelerated mutation that transforms humans into amphibians. Gods fucking damn Threshold....


Threshold is non-continuity. It has no value as a reference for further writing, to the point that Tom Paris explicitly says in a later episode "I have not travelled at warp 10." It is not really worth considering as canon, given the disdain and non-continuity status it was held in by the production staff.


Oh, phew, it's relieving that they could at least admit the mistake.

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Postby Darth Servo » 2008-06-12 03:50am

NecronLord wrote:
Venator wrote:Although, they have no problem reversing accelerated mutation that transforms humans into amphibians. Gods fucking damn Threshold....


Threshold is non-continuity. It has no value as a reference for further writing, to the point that Tom Paris explicitly says in a later episode "I have not travelled at warp 10." It is not really worth considering as canon, given the disdain and non-continuity status it was held in by the production staff.

Anyone know where the statement was that resulted in this? It should be in the archived threads on the forum.
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