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Aratech
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Post by Aratech » 2008-05-01 06:46pm

Batman wrote:If you want me to check out SB telling me Mith ISN'T the worst they have to offer damn sure isn't the way :)
Ah, but there are the great ones, too. Vym, Poe, Thanatos, CommanderRazor and Cpl_Facehugger are all excellent sources of logic and sound reasoning.

Also, the Motivational Poster thread is a must read. :wink:
"Impossible! Lasers can't even harm out deflector dish! Clearly these foes are masters of illusion!' 'But sir, my console says we-' 'MASTERS OF ILLUSION! - General Schatten

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Post by Batman » 2008-05-01 06:53pm

I think I'll pass anyway if it's all the same to you. :P
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'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
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'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'

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Post by Aratech » 2008-05-01 06:58pm

Fair enough. There are some places you go that I'll probably never tread either.

*raises a bottle of water*

A toast and salute. To each man his own.
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Post by Batman » 2008-05-01 07:10pm

Aratech wrote:Fair enough. There are some places you go that I'll probably never tread either.
There are. Though I very much suspect that's mainly because you never heard of them to begin with :D
*raises a bottle of water*
A toast and salute. To each man his own.

*toasts back with bottle of beer*
No offense, but the essentially 2nd hand view of the Vs debate I got here is about all I'm willing to deal with.
I made the cardinal mistake of actually trying to debate over at SFJ. Never again.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'

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Post by Venator » 2008-05-01 09:57pm

I made the cardinal mistake of actually trying to debate over at SFJ. Never again.
More than enough to put someone off the debate in general... I made two or three posts on ST.com as "Seigriecher" in the the original thread but didn't have the time or wherewithal to deal with JMSpock when he entered the scene.

Beyond that, I've usually backed up friends in debates rather than getting entangled myself... "second hand view" is a good place to be, I'll hand it to you.

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Post by Ritterin Sophia » 2008-05-01 10:40pm

Aratech wrote:
Batman wrote:If you want me to check out SB telling me Mith ISN'T the worst they have to offer damn sure isn't the way :)
Ah, but there are the great ones, too. Vym, Poe, Thanatos, CommanderRazor and Cpl_Facehugger are all excellent sources of logic and sound reasoning.
Poe was banned from SB, Vympel can be found more often here than SB, and Thanatos comes and goes. There's only three people I'd miss on SB other than the one's who already post here, that Razor, Facehugger, and Asmodeus. The rest of SB seems to be primarily made up of what would be SDN rejects; Mith, Crossover_Maniac, Vivftp, and EmperorSolo have all had forays here. So that would make SFJ the rejects of the rejects.

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Post by Peptuck » 2008-05-02 02:55am

Am I reading this post right?

Did some dumbshit just try to compare the Genesis Device to DET weapons?
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Post by Darth Servo » 2008-05-02 03:17am

Peptuck wrote:Did some dumbshit just try to compare the Genesis Device to DET weapons?
No, just wanking about its ability to wipe life off the surface of the planet, again, with ultra literal, no-limits interpretation of dialog. And the moron has no clue of scale if he thinks 4000 km is anything to get excited about in outer space.

Of course Trektards have been trying to produce outrageous energy figures for the Genesis device since the early days of the vs debate. Mike's dismantling of Graham Kennedy's wanking over the thing was one of the first things I read on this page when I first discovered SD.net roughly 10 years ago.
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Post by Darth Servo » 2008-05-02 03:25am

Edit: never mind that the "blast radius" of the device -- the Reliant exploding -- was only slightly larger than the ship itself, not 4000 km. The area of effect of the device is not the same thing as a blast radius.
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Post by Darth Hoth » 2008-05-02 07:30am

Aratech wrote:Trust me, though, he's not as bad as he used to be. He once spent twenty pages seriously trying to claim that the Drow from Forgotten Realms would utterly ravage the modern day united states.
If I may, a link, please?

That actually sounds bad enough to be hilarious.
"But there's no story past Episode VI, there's just no story. It's a certain story about Anakin Skywalker and once Anakin Skywalker dies, that's kind of the end of the story. There is no story about Luke Skywalker, I mean apart from the books."

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Post by Aratech » 2008-05-02 08:42am

Darth Hoth wrote:
Aratech wrote:Trust me, though, he's not as bad as he used to be. He once spent twenty pages seriously trying to claim that the Drow from Forgotten Realms would utterly ravage the modern day united states.
If I may, a link, please?

That actually sounds bad enough to be hilarious.
http://forum.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=106627
The Evil Warsie Conspiracy provides.
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Post by Ender » 2008-05-02 12:26pm

Originally Posted by l33telboi
You still seem to be a little confused about how debating works in a non SoD breaking fashion. Let's say we have incident 1 and incident 2, with incident 1 showing 1 joule of firepower and incident 2 showing 100 teratons of firepower.

Which one of these incidents is correct?
Neither. You take all the instances you can and calc them. Then you look at the base logic behind the design and factor that in - if we see it can direct X power to Y system, then it follows that they should be able to direct X to the weapons as well. After you have an idea of what the mean value is, you investigate the outliers harder and see if they can be interpreted in a manner more in line with the mean.

It is a long and involved process, and one that has gone grossly out of favor in the last few years.

To which he replies
That would basically have us toss out every single incident that ever happened in the series and replace them with a completly theoretical figure. It'd be SoD breaking on steroids

Remember, the point is to get high numbers, not the truth!
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Post by white_rabbit » 2008-05-02 03:47pm

Remember, the point is to get high numbers, not the truth!
The Starfleet Jedi motto.

Not surprisingly, the prat in question is a member
However, he was wrong on the fire immunity thing. They're immune to chemical combustion flames that in the grand spectrum of things, aren't really all that hot. D20 Modern and Future list plasma and laser weaponry as their own type of damage, which Devils are quite vulnerable to. Even the Medieval based DnD has something called 'hellfire' which is described as basically being white hot flames, this also roasts them quite well.
Just read the next few pages, we got into this several times, Demons and Devils could survive telporting into the sun, hellfire only burns the soul.

The whole "dragon BDZ" thing was basically a prop for some convoluted string of bullshit to justify Hellfire not being dangerous because of its extreme temperature, because blah blah bullshit bullshit.

Lets not forget, if you could imagine doing it in a game, i.e. teleporting someone into a star, then the rules must have taken this into account, therefore fire resistence includes temperatures found inside the sun.
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Post by Darkevilme » 2008-05-02 04:13pm

I actually spent 2 days on SFJ as mr.dark, L33tboi i assumed was their resident troll as in the debate i ended up in he had zero contributions except snide remarks.

Mike at least provided evidence that didnt support his claims.

And everytime JMSPOCK posted i felt there was something better i could be doing with my time, like porn or something. Verbage and assumptions and a dodging of the word 'examples'
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Post by Ritterin Sophia » 2008-05-02 04:58pm

l33teltard has trolled here and at SB before as well, frankly he's bloody idiot. Last I saw he was still attempting to argue that a Terran Marine's rifle is an automatic railgun that fires hypersonic, 8mm, depleted uranium rounds that can kill a full fledged Space Marine. Despite not being able to penetrate the carapace of a zerg that can be knocked unconcious by being hit by a pickup truck.
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Post by Aratech » 2008-05-02 11:01pm

Anyone ever heard of this Neil fellow before? He's been around on SB for a while, but his arguments and attitude, seem, well, childish, almost.

It almost makes me feel bad for tearing his arguments apart as viciously as I would someone like HukserJay.
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Post by lord Martiya » 2008-05-03 02:59am

Batman wrote:
Starfleet assigned NCC hull numbers to runabouts. Apparently they just began to do it in DS9 (the numbers that I know are all over over 72400, the lowest being the USS Rio Grande NCC-72452), but they DO.
Um-how does that show they just began to do it recently? The complete absence of runabouts from TNG sorts of hints at it what with there not being any runabouts around to assign NCC numbers TO but for all we know Starfleet assigned hull numbers to runabouts from the word go and by the time we get to DS9 they just have built a bloody lot of them in the meantime.
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Post by Darth Hoth » 2008-05-03 09:40am

Aratech wrote:
Darth Hoth wrote:If I may, a link, please?

That actually sounds bad enough to be hilarious.
http://forum.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=106627
The Evil Warsie Conspiracy provides.
My thanks.

Hmm... That guy does come across as pretty much your textbook wanktard: No limits fallacies, game mechanics debating, inconsistency, re-editing of the scenario, strawmans, tautologies, broken recording/wall of ignorance, misrepresentation, outright lying...

But that joke about Mith-summoning Drow clerics, as well as his utter incredulity, was worth plowing through the rest... :lol:
"But there's no story past Episode VI, there's just no story. It's a certain story about Anakin Skywalker and once Anakin Skywalker dies, that's kind of the end of the story. There is no story about Luke Skywalker, I mean apart from the books."

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Post by Swindle1984 » 2008-05-03 02:08pm

Aratech wrote:
Darth Hoth wrote:
Aratech wrote:Trust me, though, he's not as bad as he used to be. He once spent twenty pages seriously trying to claim that the Drow from Forgotten Realms would utterly ravage the modern day united states.
If I may, a link, please?

That actually sounds bad enough to be hilarious.
http://forum.spacebattles.com/showthread.php?t=106627
The Evil Warsie Conspiracy provides.
That is fucking HILARIOUS. He really has no idea how vastly overwhelmed the Drow would be when faced with a force armed with modern weapons.

His arguments for why VX nerve gas wouldn't work are amusingly pathetic. If everyone is dead within seconds and VX has no smell, taste, or color, how is anyone supposed to realize what's going on? What good is "cure poison" if the person you just cured is STILL EXPOSED TO THE POISON? What good is "raising the dead" if YOU'RE DEAD TOO? Oy.

With body armor, night vision goggles and thermal devices, and fucking MACHINE GUNS, rocket launchers, grenades, and more, US infantry alone would ass-rape most Drow before they even had any idea what was going on. And since there's enough room to maneuver armor through most of the Drow cities and the roads to and from them... Only the ones on the other side of whichever city was hit would have enough warning to counter-attack, and modern American firepower would see the day through, though I imagine with high losses until they figured out the best way to combat Drow abilities.
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Post by Wyrm » 2008-05-03 03:19pm

As to the Mith Drow-wanking, I say this: If the Drow get Lloth, the US gets nukes. To say that the Drow has to face a crippled US military (crippled in a way not forced on us by the way the universes are connected) is a tacit admission that the Drow are inferior to the US militarily. Suck it.
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Post by Aratech » 2008-05-03 03:34pm

Wyrm wrote:As to the Mith Drow-wanking, I say this: If the Drow get Lloth, the US gets nukes. To say that the Drow has to face a crippled US military (crippled in a way not forced on us by the way the universes are connected) is a tacit admission that the Drow are inferior to the US militarily. Suck it.
And, in a whole universe context, there are quite a number of Faerun deities (Helm, Torm, Tyr, etc) that wouldn't mind seeing the insane little bitch knocked down a few pegs, which gives me the mental image of the U.S. military transforming into something that wouldn't look to terribly out of place in the Imperium of Man.
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Post by Ritterin Sophia » 2008-05-03 04:07pm

Aratech wrote:
Wyrm wrote:As to the Mith Drow-wanking, I say this: If the Drow get Lloth, the US gets nukes. To say that the Drow has to face a crippled US military (crippled in a way not forced on us by the way the universes are connected) is a tacit admission that the Drow are inferior to the US militarily. Suck it.
And, in a whole universe context, there are quite a number of Faerun deities (Helm, Torm, Tyr, etc) that wouldn't mind seeing the insane little bitch knocked down a few pegs, which gives me the mental image of the U.S. military transforming into something that wouldn't look to terribly out of place in the Imperium of Man.
Well let's see...
From Races of Destiny wrote:Long ago, according to legend, Zarus was the first man, created by the world itself. No deity had a hand in his creation, because no deity could have conceived such a perfect creature. Members of the other races trembled to see him, for they knew that he was their superior in every way. His grace surpassed that of the elves, his sturdiness astounded the dwarves, his crafts were the awe of gnomes and halflings everywhere.

As long as Zarus was alone, the other races allowed him to live, secure in the knowledge that he could not reproduce. But Zarus was not content. He spoke with the world and begged for a mate -- and it created his wife, Astra. She was as perfect a woman as Zarus was a man, and the other races trembled yet again, fearing that this perfect couple would spawn a new race that would overshadow them all. To prevent this, the leaders of each race gathered in secret and plotted Zarus's demise. They brewed a poison and mixed it in fine wine, which they gave to him as a wedding present.

Zarus knew that the others plotted his death, but he could not honorably refuse the gift. He toasted their health, and drank. The poison worked swiftly, but as Zarus felt his life departing the world took pity upon him and elevated him to godhood. Now Zarus looked down upon the world, and he wiped away the tears of his wife Astra. "Do not weep for me, beloved," he consoled her, "for I am now a god, and set to watch over our people. You will bear me children -- they already lie in your womb -- and these will be the start of our race. All the other races will quake in fear, knowing that they cannot match us."

This is the story told in the Book of Zarus, the holy scripture of his church. Zarus is called "the true human god" and is considered the only god who places humans before all others. He cares nothing for the other races, only for humanity, and encourages his followers to prove themselves better than any nonhuman. Unfortunately, he also fosters the belief that humans deserve to rule the world, treating other races as servants. His priests teach that other races are inferior, in need of human guidance -- and human masters.

The clerics of Zarus encourage conquest and slavery. The worst sin a human can commit, according to the Church of Zarus, is to mate with a nonhuman and produce a child. This child is a taint on the race and must be removed.

Zarus appears as an incredibly handsome human male in his prime, suffused with a golden glow. Zarus encourages his followers and priests to become as perfect as possible, and to dominate other races.

Portfolio: Humanity, domination, perfection.

Domains: Destiny, Evil, Law, Strength, War.

Cleric Training: Zarus's priests look for attractive, healthy youths who show pride in their abilities and arrogance toward anyone weaker. They recruit these people by offering to make them the best they can be. These acolytes are subjected to strict training, honing their physiques, and at the same time they are taught that humanity is the superior race and deserves to rule the world. These young clerics learn both how to give rousing speeches and how to wage war. They begin preaching in villages and towns, spreading their message.

Quests: Zarus sends his followers to destroy enclaves of other races, kill their heroes and leaders, and steal their artifacts. He encourages human armies to conquer nonhuman lands and subjugate their people.

Prayers: Zarus prefers action to words, and his followers pray to him by exercising and by taking part in athletic competitions where they can demonstrate their superiority. Every morning they perform their exercises, vowing to be the best they can be and to demonstrate to other races that humans are superior in every way.

Temples: Zarus's temples are handsome structures, not elaborate but extremely well made and with tasteful decorations. The walls are covered with tapestries depicting mankind's talents: scenes of hunting, farming, weaving, and other occupations. The altar is always a gold statue of a perfect human male, a representation of Zarus himself.

Rites: Zarus's worshipers pray to him before a physical competition, before a war, and before entering the territory of another race. Ceremonies are short and direct, and require physical exertion.

Herald and Allies: Zarus has no herald -- he claims he needs none. He sends Medium, Large, and Huge elementals in response to planar ally spells.

Favored Weapon: Greatsword.
All hail Zarus, God-Emperor of Mankind! :P
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Post by Peptuck » 2008-05-03 05:21pm

The most hilarious part is that the United States military would not only have a massive tech advantage, but they'd outnumber the drow by at least one order of magnitude. Even if the drow mobilized entire cities, they'd get twenty to thirty thousand warriors from each of those, and would barely muster the numbers to match the United States Marine Corps, which is the smallest branch outside the Coast Guard.

And that's with our standing army, not counting conscription and volunteer recruiting and the wartime manufacturing boost.
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Post by Elfdart » 2008-05-04 11:31am

The guy is a Forgotten Realms fan? :lol:

Any drow outside of Greyhawk are pure wank. It's like the difference between Jango, Boba Fett and the clones in the movies, and the M'ast'ur'ba'tion'alor'ia'ns in Traviss' books.
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Post by Elfdart » 2008-05-04 11:59am

This exchange between Ender and leetboi is pure comedy gold:
Ender wrote:Did you read your own link?
leetboi wrote:Actually, no.
:lol:
"One way we recognize a mass hysteria movement is that everyone who doesn’t believe is accused of being in on the plot. This has been going on virtually unrestrained in both political and media circles in recent weeks."

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