More Trektardism

[Batman]

Service numbers are USELESS for determining fleet sizes ANYWAY. Unless the USN has some 80 fleet carriers and around 700+ SS(B)Ns. All it takes is for Starfleet assigning NCC hull numbers to runabouts (which I DO seem to recall from DS9 but I wouln't bet money on it) to blow up the official numbers up to the 70,000+ we see in VOY.
And that's ignoring all the ships that might have gotten assigned a hull number but never actually got built.
And all of that is within sequential numbering.

[Aratech]

Quick question: has anyone seen Future's End? Where Voyager's shuttle blows up that truck? It's been a while, but correct me if I'm wrong. Wasn't that a 29th century shuttle, or one outfitted with that level of technology?

[Peptuck]

Even if its a standard shuttle, the screenshot Mith posted in the Spacebattles thread only proves its phasers have firepower comparable to a modern anti-tank missile. I mean, sure, that can take out a Covenant tank, but it doesn't give them anymore air superiority than the UNSC already has.

[Aratech]

Even if its a standard shuttle, the screenshot Mith posted in the Spacebattles thread only proves its phasers have firepower comparable to a modern anti-tank missile. I mean, sure, that can take out a Covenant tank, but it doesn't give them anymore air superiority than the UNSC already has.

Actually, that's slightly debatable. IIRC, COvenant tanks can take a few shots from their own cannons... which have power that's about equal to a 1 kiloton tac nuke, if my calcs are correct (Halo: First Strike gives them a twenty meter vaporization radius for their plasma bombs, with an unknown area of devastation beyond that).

[Peptuck]

Even if its a standard shuttle, the screenshot Mith posted in the Spacebattles thread only proves its phasers have firepower comparable to a modern anti-tank missile. I mean, sure, that can take out a Covenant tank, but it doesn't give them anymore air superiority than the UNSC already has.

Actually, that's slightly debatable. IIRC, COvenant tanks can take a few shots from their own cannons... which have power that's about equal to a 1 kiloton tac nuke, if my calcs are correct (Halo: First Strike gives them a twenty meter vaporization radius for their plasma bombs, with an unknown area of devastation beyond that).

I always got the impression that this was due to contact with the Wraith's plasma itself -IOW, they fire a ball of plasma that vaporizes everything where it impacts but doesn't do much splash damage past that impact area. Its consistent with the observable effects in-game, though naturally the area of effect in-game is significantly smaller than twenty meters.

[Aratech]

Even if its a standard shuttle, the screenshot Mith posted in the Spacebattles thread only proves its phasers have firepower comparable to a modern anti-tank missile. I mean, sure, that can take out a Covenant tank, but it doesn't give them anymore air superiority than the UNSC already has.

Actually, that's slightly debatable. IIRC, COvenant tanks can take a few shots from their own cannons... which have power that's about equal to a 1 kiloton tac nuke, if my calcs are correct (Halo: First Strike gives them a twenty meter vaporization radius for their plasma bombs, with an unknown area of devastation beyond that).

I always got the impression that this was due to contact with the Wraith's plasma itself -IOW, they fire a ball of plasma that vaporizes everything where it impacts but doesn't do much splash damage past that impact area. Its consistent with the observable effects in-game, though naturally the area of effect in-game is significantly smaller than twenty meters.

Honestly, I'm not sure. But it does display DET effects.

At any rate, given that they can take this power, and that they're covered in about six inches of funky sci-fi armor plating, as opposed to an unarmored semi, I'm reluctant to believe that a shuttle of any caliber can one shot them. This assumes the shuttles even survive getting past Covenant Seraphs, which have much more impressive weaponry.

[skies]

Service numbers are USELESS for determining fleet sizes ANYWAY. Unless the USN has some 80 fleet carriers and around 700+ SS(B)Ns. All it takes is for Starfleet assigning NCC hull numbers to runabouts (which I DO seem to recall from DS9 but I wouln't bet money on it) to blow up the official numbers up to the 70,000+ we see in VOY.
And that's ignoring all the ships that might have gotten assigned a hull number but never actually got built.
And all of that is within sequential numbering.

Don't forget that the service numbers include ships through the entire history of the fleet. A large proportion of those ships will have been retired, with only a few service numbers being reused (i.e. NCC 1701-*). The most we can assume is that starfleet has had 700 distinct classes of starship in its history, with probably ~10-20 ships average for each class. That gives us 7000 to 14000 ships over a period of ~300 years, very few of which are top of the line (think of the proportion of dinky little exploration and science vessels to enterprise sized cruisers). This means that starfleet is actually spread pretty thin, and certainly can't compare with the number of ISDs, much less all the support vessels, of the imperial fleet.

[Batman]

Service numbers are USELESS for determining fleet sizes ANYWAY. Unless the USN has some 80 fleet carriers and around 700+ SS(B)Ns. All it takes is for Starfleet assigning NCC hull numbers to runabouts (which I DO seem to recall from DS9 but I wouln't bet money on it) to blow up the official numbers up to the 70,000+ we see in VOY.
And that's ignoring all the ships that might have gotten assigned a hull number but never actually got built.
And all of that is within sequential numbering.

Don't forget that the service numbers include ships through the entire history of the fleet. A large proportion of those ships will have been retired, with only a few service numbers being reused (i.e. NCC 1701-*).

That was sort of my point you know.

[Swindle1984]

Considering that the Federation has roughly 150 worlds according to Picard, I find it hard to believe the Federation has 70,000 starships when every other week the Enterprise is the only ship in the area and the forty or fifty starships destroyed by the Borg in Best of Both Worlds was such a devestating loss to Starfleet.

[Peptuck]

Actually, that's slightly debatable. IIRC, COvenant tanks can take a few shots from their own cannons... which have power that's about equal to a 1 kiloton tac nuke, if my calcs are correct (Halo: First Strike gives them a twenty meter vaporization radius for their plasma bombs, with an unknown area of devastation beyond that).

I always got the impression that this was due to contact with the Wraith's plasma itself -IOW, they fire a ball of plasma that vaporizes everything where it impacts but doesn't do much splash damage past that impact area. Its consistent with the observable effects in-game, though naturally the area of effect in-game is significantly smaller than twenty meters.

Honestly, I'm not sure. But it does display DET effects.

At any rate, given that they can take this power, and that they're covered in about six inches of funky sci-fi armor plating, as opposed to an unarmored semi, I'm reluctant to believe that a shuttle of any caliber can one shot them. This assumes the shuttles even survive getting past Covenant Seraphs, which have much more impressive weaponry.

Correct, though if I were debating this point, I would go with your interpretation of how the Wraith guns work as well. My point earlier relies on game mechanics, and if we do that, it means Brutes are apparently able to literally catch these twenty-meter-diameter vaporizing balls of plasma with their faces and only be annoyed at the damage to their armor.

[Peptuck]

Ghetto edit: shit, that brings up an additional point you guys left out in the debate: the equipment Covenant troops carry in Halo 3. Things like regenerators, energy drains, radar jammers, bubble shields, even the temporary invincibility devices used by Brute Chieftains.

[Darth Ruinus]

This Mith character is hilarious. Shuttles completely make dedicated ground armies obsolete, it seems.

[Peptuck]

This Mith character is hilarious. Shuttles completely make dedicated ground armies obsolete, it seems.

Yeah, just like air power has rendered ground armies obsolete in modern....oh, wait.

[lord Martiya]

All it takes is for Starfleet assigning NCC hull numbers to runabouts (which I DO seem to recall from DS9 but I wouln't bet money on it) to blow up the official numbers up to the 70,000+ we see in VOY.

You lost an occasion to become rich: Starfleet assigned NCC hull numbers to runabouts. Apparently they just began to do it in DS9 (the numbers that I know are all over over 72400, the lowest being the USS Rio Grande NCC-72452), but they DO.

[white_rabbit]

This Mith character is hilarious. Shuttles completely make dedicated ground armies obsolete, it seems.

Mith thinks that D&D fire dragon breath is more energetic than a weeks output from a main sequence star.

He is quite literally one of the stupidest people posting regularly on spacebattles.

[Aratech]

This Mith character is hilarious. Shuttles completely make dedicated ground armies obsolete, it seems.

Mith thinks that D&D fire dragon breath is more energetic than a weeks output from a main sequence star.

He is quite literally one of the stupidest people posting regularly on spacebattles.

Where did Mith say that?

[Vympel]

This Mith character is hilarious. Shuttles completely make dedicated ground armies obsolete, it seems.

Just like aircraft made the tank and APC obso- oh wait.

[Elfdart]

Service numbers are USELESS for determining fleet sizes ANYWAY. Unless the USN has some 80 fleet carriers and around 700+ SS(B)Ns. All it takes is for Starfleet assigning NCC hull numbers to runabouts (which I DO seem to recall from DS9 but I wouln't bet money on it) to blow up the official numbers up to the 70,000+ we see in VOY.
And that's ignoring all the ships that might have gotten assigned a hull number but never actually got built.
And all of that is within sequential numbering.

I guess the number 47 as in AK-47 means only 47 were ever made.

What an asshole!

[white_rabbit]

This Mith character is hilarious. Shuttles completely make dedicated ground armies obsolete, it seems.

Mith thinks that D&D fire dragon breath is more energetic than a weeks output from a main sequence star.

He is quite literally one of the stupidest people posting regularly on spacebattles.

Where did Mith say that?

I think its somewhere twixt this page and the rest of the thread.

Its a nice showcase of his stupidity as a whole as well, this guy should simply be ignored, he isn't ever going to fucking learn.

http://forum.spacebattles.com/showthrea ... 30&page=16

[Darth Servo]

Mith's first post on the page WR linked:

Also, did you know that fire immunity has to be like that? Allow me to introduce you to Epic, which has the Advanced Dragon. This is added to a normal dragon that is much more powerful. For every 3HD I add to it, it gets another virtual age catagory. Lets say we use a red dragon eh? I increase its die number of D10s by two per age catagory that it gains. Basicly, I can make that damag ego higher in one blast than what a star can put out in a week if I wanted to.

[Peptuck]

Mith's first post on the page WR linked:

Also, did you know that fire immunity has to be like that? Allow me to introduce you to Epic, which has the Advanced Dragon. This is added to a normal dragon that is much more powerful. For every 3HD I add to it, it gets another virtual age catagory. Lets say we use a red dragon eh? I increase its die number of D10s by two per age catagory that it gains. Basicly, I can make that damag ego higher in one blast than what a star can put out in a week if I wanted to.

.......words fail me.

[Aratech]

Mith's first post on the page WR linked:

Also, did you know that fire immunity has to be like that? Allow me to introduce you to Epic, which has the Advanced Dragon. This is added to a normal dragon that is much more powerful. For every 3HD I add to it, it gets another virtual age catagory. Lets say we use a red dragon eh? I increase its die number of D10s by two per age catagory that it gains. Basicly, I can make that damag ego higher in one blast than what a star can put out in a week if I wanted to.

Going by an ultra, ultra literal interpretation of DnD rules, its technically possible. However, such a creature would be less of a dragon and more of a draconic version of the God Emperor of Man, and thankfully, has never appeared anywhere in the fluff (D20 rules are inadmissible in a debate, given the wonkiness and interpretations that can arise from things like hit points and the like) .

However, he was wrong on the fire immunity thing. They're immune to chemical combustion flames that in the grand spectrum of things, aren't really all that hot. D20 Modern and Future list plasma and laser weaponry as their own type of damage, which Devils are quite vulnerable to. Even the Medieval based DnD has something called 'hellfire' which is described as basically being white hot flames, this also roasts them quite well.

[Batman]

All it takes is for Starfleet assigning NCC hull numbers to runabouts (which I DO seem to recall from DS9 but I wouln't bet money on it) to blow up the official numbers up to the 70,000+ we see in VOY.

You lost an occasion to become rich:

Well it's not like I'm not richer than God already anyway
Thanks for the confirmation.

Starfleet assigned NCC hull numbers to runabouts. Apparently they just began to do it in DS9 (the numbers that I know are all over over 72400, the lowest being the USS Rio Grande NCC-72452), but they DO.

Um-how does that show they just began to do it recently? The complete absence of runabouts from TNG sorts of hints at it what with there not being any runabouts around to assign NCC numbers TO but for all we know Starfleet assigned hull numbers to runabouts from the word go and by the time we get to DS9 they just have built a bloody lot of them in the meantime.

Since commenting on Mith's use of D&D rules in a Vs debate would likely require me to read the SB thread in question and I'm sort of attached to what's left of my sanity I think I'll leave that one to the others.

[Aratech]

Since commenting on Mith's use of D&D rules in a Vs debate would likely require me to read the SB thread in question and I'm sort of attached to what's left of my sanity I think I'll leave that one to the others.

For the most part, Mith is improving. Its just that he tends to regress when his two favorite franchises (Trek and DnD) come under attack.

Trust me, though, he's not as bad as he used to be. He once spent twenty pages seriously trying to claim that the Drow from Forgotten Realms would utterly ravage the modern day united states.


And, to be frank, there are worst posters and idiots at Space Battles. There's DarkTempest, Darylboy, or whatever his name is, Bryan certainly has his moments, and then there are the banned ones, such as Scrubula/Truthteller/Mastersomethingorother, and, believe it or not, our very own Stewie of SDI and Darkstar have also posted there from time to time.

[Batman]

If you want me to check out SB telling me Mith ISN'T the worst they have to offer damn sure isn't the way