Power of Star Wars weapons, a tad bit exagerated

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Post by LMSx »

Except that on the offcial SW site, they say that Blasters and Turbolasers work on the same principle, if not in the same power range.
Yes. One is much less powerful then the other. 200 GT is much more then enough to simply kill someone. And the person next to him. And the entire city block behind him. And everything else in a 12 mile path behind him.
Lightsabres, Hyperspace, the fact that a gigantic laser beam makes a planet explode instantaneously, when everybody says that lasers only drill holes their width in size.
Han Solo walking with only a respirator mask inside a giant Spaceworm, without worrying about depressurisation.
I think it does...
Lightsabers are not important in a ST. vs. SW debate. Hyperspace-it fits with the multiple dimensions posed by string theory, down to gravity wells affecting objects travelling through. The Superlaser delivers enough energy to destabilize and destroy the planet. It isn't a laser per se, but a plasma component. In this case, a HUGE plasma component. The Spaceworm's mouth may have been closed. We don't know.
So are blasters...
Phasers violate conservation of energy. We still don't know how they work, just that they magically remove people from existance. Blasters have a canister of Tibanna gas, and they then fire a laser through it resulting in a charged plasma bolt hitting an object.
I wonder what law of modern science states that parallel dimensions will be affected by our "shadow" gravity.
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Re: Power of Star Wars weapons, a tad bit exagerated

Post by Raptor 597 »

Crossover_Maniac wrote:
Considering that the battle was a ground battle, good thing it didn't. 200 GT would roast every clone within line of sight of ground zero.
Hmm, yeah but you could fire on the reinforcing Droids that would be arriving behind the lines, and they are still other alternatives, for instance firing on the Droids firing directly behind the lines(the battlelines were really long) and if things were really bad they could Broken Arrow as seen in Vietnam when NVA Ground Forces break through they unleash evrythin, you may lose a few troops but you pulveried the enemy.
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Re: Power of Star Wars weapons, a tad bit exagerated

Post by Grand Admiral Thrawn »

Crossover_Maniac wrote:


Considering that the battle was a ground battle, good thing it didn't. 200 GT would roast every clone within line of sight of ground zero.

And they wanted to test the clonies in combat.
NDF? What does that stand for?

Nuclear Disruption Force. Basically trying to explain how phasers work. They break things into neutrinoes. Good against rock, bad against armour. See here:

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/index.html

He does say that ST made up metals are really ordinary metals renamed after WWIII.
Where? All I heard about ST armour on Mike's site is duranium (which he thinks may possibly be depleted uranium)
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Except that on the offcial SW site, they say that Blasters and Turbolasers work on the same principle, if not in the same power range.
Irrelevant. That response had nothing to do with the argument.
Today's skyscrapers are hundreds of meters high, and defy gravity, yet when you test a chunk of the ciment ( which is part of their construction), you can make a pretty good mark on a wall with a good sledgehammer.
Red herring, and dishonest. The cement is NOT a significant part of a skyscraper's structural integrity. The steel skeleton inside is. Try hitting a steel I-beam with a sledgehammer and see if you can even scratch it.
Materials aren't the only things involved in building stuff, think "material engeneering".
So what do they use? Happy thoughts and smiles?
How you put it toghether has as much to do with its resistance and capacity to support itself.
That has nothing to do with "material engineering" and everything to do with "architecture". But there's only so much that brilliant design can do. At some point, you NEED stronger building materials. You don't really think the Empire State Building was constructed with just bricks, do you?
But in ANH, when the X-Wings are attacked, depending on their importance in the movie, when hit by the same Tie weapons, they either:
A-Explode
Or
B-Just get R2 messed up, and break a motivator.
Do you know what a "glancing hit" is? Watch ANH again. Artoo was hit by only a small fraction of the blaster bolt which happened to be channeled through a tiny hole in the shield. The rest of the blast either continued on or was absorbed by the shield.

A lot of the instances where things don't "look" to be very powerful are either instances where the power levels on the weapons have been turned down (to favor conservation of ammo and a faster refire rate) or when the blast strikes a shield.
Lightsabres, Hyperspace, the fact that a gigantic laser beam makes a planet explode instantaneously, when everybody says that lasers only drill holes their width in size.
Han Solo walking with only a respirator mask inside a giant Spaceworm, without worrying about depressurisation.
Explain how either of those violate any modern principle or scientific law. Lightsabers, hyperspace, and SW energy weapons are fictional, but do not violate any known law (as for the DS blast: A blaster, turbolaser, and/or superlaser blast doesn't drill its hole only its width in size... the energy in the bolt/stream/whatever it is bleeds out into the matter in all directions, causing that matter to vaporize, which causes it to violently expand. Know what we saw in Alderaan's case? That's right... a violent expansion of matter!)

As for Han Solo and the respirator... obviously, there must have been an atmosphere in the space slug's gullet. How? I dunno. But something was keeping an atmosphere in there.
So are blasters...
Nope. Blasters are fictional, yes, but they are completely direct-energy transfer. They don't require the invention of some new subatomic particle and some new messy explanations in physics in order to explain their mode of operation.
But, on the official SW site, it is stated that blasters fire laser bolts (I thought lasers only fired in streams), that are, in Turbolasers, augmented with blaster gas.
The SW site is odd, because on the one hand, they call blasts shots "light-based", but then turn right around and call blaster bolts "particle beams". Don't ask me how that works. Perhaps the excited Tibanna gas material slows photons down extremely, similar to the modern-day experiments where photons were slowed down to tiny fractions of their usual velocity?
No, a magic hat actually.
The same one where Lucas pulls his Turbolaser figures from.
Saxton (and, well, the art designers that worked on the movies) pulled the figures out of, as you say, a magic hat.

There's nothing wrong with a person who has authority to pull figures out of their ass and/or hat. The problem arises when a person who has no authority does it.
According to SW official site, Hyperspace is a parallel dimension.
Also works. Hyperspace travel still violates no laws of physics.
I wonder what law of modern science states that parallel dimensions will be affected by our "shadow" gravity.
Probably the same theories that speculate that there may be dimensions as "large" as a centimeter wide, where gravity has a stronger influence.
SW official site says only a few weapons emplacement were taken off.
Well, there was only light weaponry to begin with (it was designed for an anti-starfighter role). What the medical frigate lost (according to SW.com) was its fighter launch bay.
Why not blanket Hiroshima in a shitload of bombs? It'll destroy a lot of buildings.
That's an idiotic retort, and I'm having trouble in deciphering why you'd bring it up. The point was about unnecessary overkill... that you don't NEED the heaviest weaponry to destroy a light, small target.
Now, you say Vader wanted his prisoners alive, so that is why the AT-ATs weren't firing at full strenght. Oh, okay!
But, wait a minute, you just said that all the shots fired killed someone ( though I clearly remenber rebel soldiers fleeing the scene).
But, didn't Lord Vader want his prisoners alive?
He wanted SOME prisoners alive. Like Commander Skywalker. And/or Han Solo, Leia, Rieekan, or other higher-ups of the Rebellion. They didn't want to just lay waste to the area willy-nilly, because they wanted to capture some high-ranking Rebels so they could extract information on the location of other Rebel cells.

In modern day terms... why do we send troops into warzones nowadays at all, when we can just bomb the area to pieces with cruise missiles? Answer: Because a lot of times, there are some people in the area that you don't want dead.
But, wouldn't firing at a shield generator at full power risk destroying the base?
Nope. The shield generator was not a part of the base proper. Notice that when it blew... it didn't take the whole base with it?
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Post by Ender »

Praeothmin wrote:Well, as stated in AotC incredible cross section, Turbolasers aren't lasers, they're plasma weapons, using heated gas to deliver energy, by way of energetic discharges (or nothing would ever blow in SW, and weapons would only drill holes, yet we see explosions).
They use an electron magnetic jacket to deliver the heated, excited and charged gas to the target.
Read the begining page, about the technology. IT SAYS THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF THAT. It says that they are lasers, with a plasma tracer.

Of course, he couldn't have possibly been firing at full power, since that would have meant he would have killed all opposing forces quickly, thus not lose two AT-ATs, and a few AT-STsin the attack...
As in real life, if you fire at full auto (max. firepower for SW), you are going to run out of ammo and damage the weapon more quickly. Hence the logic in not going in full bore. It's the same reason trekkies don't go in with level 16 phaser blasts each time.
Neither am I. What I'm saying is that blasters, although they work on the same principle as Turbolasers, don't have the proportionate firepower supposedly exibited by Turbolasers.
Nor does a Derringer have proportionate firepower to an Abrams tank main gun.
Again, proven only once (asteroids in ESB)...
So it was proven then. Why are you complaining?
It was at the start of the battle, Lando Calrissian specifically stated:
"Keep those fighters (most of whom where ties, and as I said, we only saw less than a dozen) away from the Medical Frigate."
And every source book I read stated Nebulon-Bs as capital ships, with Capital ship shields.
Every book also states it is a frigate instead of a medical ship. It was modified for that purpose. Come on now, do you really expect the Red Rover to have the same defensive capabilities as the John C. Stennis?
In the Megaton range, from what I was lead to believe.
Last I checked, a Gigaton was one million times more powerful than a Kiloton, and a thousand times more powerful than a Megaton.
If a ship's shields could take only one hit of 200 Gigatons, how many Megaton missiles and Kilotons blasts do you think would be needed?
There are different missile strengths, something confirmed long before ICS. MT level is standard dogfighting, Then there are the big boomers that they use against cap ships that are near teraton in range if we take the xwing books w/o a grain of salt, then the petra level ones the Acclemator class and Torpedo sphere would need to take down planetary shields to do their jobs.
So is blowing up a planet in one Super shot...
As well as reducing the surface of a planet to slag...
See my earlier post. Without a better description, we can't get even rough calcs.
Unlike Hypermatter...
Scifi makes things up. Get used to it.
That were not used against SW, which was the point of my original (double) post.
That he should argue against himself?
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Post by Grand Admiral Thrawn »

Yes, he's fucking lying about the ICS. It says they fire invisible energy beams at C (notice he never says lasers), while the visible part is a tracer/waste glow.
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Post by XaLEv »

Read the begining page, about the technology. IT SAYS THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF THAT . It says that they are lasers, with a plasma tracer.
"Energy Weapons
Energy weapons fire invisible energy beams at lightspeed. The visible "bolt"
is a glowing pulse that travels along the beam at less than lightspeed...The
light given off by visible bolts depletes the overall energy content of a
beam, limiting its range. Turbolasers gain a longer range by spinning the
energy beam, which reduces waste glow."
It does not say that it is a laser.
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Post by Ender »

Praeothmin wrote:
Except that on the offcial SW site, they say that Blasters and Turbolasers work on the same principle, if not in the same power range.
They sayu teh same principle, yes but not the same power range.
Today's skyscrapers are hundreds of meters high, and defy gravity, yet when you test a chunk of the ciment ( which is part of their construction), you can make a pretty good mark on a wall with a good sledgehammer.
Materials aren't the only things involved in building stuff, think "material engeneering".
How you put it toghether has as much to do with its resistance and capacity to support itself.
You might want to look up what neutronium is, because SW armor plating has that in it. Then aregue about damage resistance.
ESB vape scene (1), RotJ battle (aside from the Death Star's firepower-which isn't in question here, ISD's Trubolasers are, no proof), AotC asteroid scene (no vape, but admitedly powerful mines, but the Slave just grinded the asteroids with its Blasters), EP2ICS (book, not visual proof), Destruction of Alderaan (Again, Death Star, not in question).

You're right, they don't.
But in ANH, when the X-Wings are attacked, depending on their importance in the movie, when hit by the same Tie weapons, they either:
A-Explode
Or
B-Just get R2 messed up, and break a motivator.
They are called character shields, and are applied to every debate.
Lightsabres, Hyperspace, the fact that a gigantic laser beam makes a planet explode instantaneously, when everybody says that lasers only drill holes their width in size.
Han Solo walking with only a respirator mask inside a giant Spaceworm, without worrying about depressurisation.
I think it does...
While I totally agree with the fact that it violates reality (all sci fi does), I want to touch in on the DS thing.

If it punches through the crust in a straight line, It's gonna hit the core. The core superheats, and explodes outwards, causing the explosion. That bit is consistent with our current knowledge.
I was wrong about the figures for Tibanna gas, I had thought that the site on which I had seen them had taken its source from acceptable material, but I can't find their sources for Tibanna gas.
But, on the official SW site, it is stated that blasters fire laser bolts (I thought lasers only fired in streams), that are, in Turbolasers, augmented with blaster gas.
Sorry about that.
Sokay.

Lemme guess, Lord Edam's site? He's known for making up random stuff like that (IE, he misquoted a source for days in a debate with Connor, claiming he couldn't get to his CD right then, only to be later proven a liar)
Hyperdrive can be theorised to work by converting bradyonic matter to tachyonic matter
I frickin hate technobabble, no matter what side it's coming from
According to SW official site, Hyperspace is a parallel dimension.
I wonder what law of modern science states that parallel dimensions will be affected by our "shadow" gravity.
Law? none. Theory? Yes. If hyperspace is a real point to real point overlay of our dimension, the grav shadows of any mass will show up in all dimensions. See Einstiens bit on the curvature of space, a bowling ball and a mattress for a better explanation.
Can you?
Well, I am from spacebattles, so...




ITS A MEDICAL FRIGIT, The Neb-B is not desgined to BE a Medical ship, IE meaning they had to yank out room for Doctors, Driods, Bacta Tanks, Shuttles and what-not, And on a ship of war know what gets take out to get more room? WEAPONRY AND SHIELDING
SW official site says only a few weapons emplacement were taken off.
Consdering by the Rules of War that Medical Ships are supposed to be both Unarmed and unshielded and not attacked by either side(Why no one bombs field hospitals though its a great chance to kill lots of Doctors and enemy soliders...)
Where does that rule come from. (unshielded medical ships? Sheeesh...)
He's speaking general military courtisies
Why not blanket Hiroshima in a shitload of bombs? It'll destroy a lot of buildings.
Oh, yeah, we want to win the war, that's why...
Why use a nuke when a 50 cal will do? The US Navy is currently starting to convert some of the SSBNMs to SSGNs. You know why? Because a guided missile can be used more often in more situations then a nuke. It's the same case here. You want to expend no more resources then the objective requires. Even simple RTS games will teach you that.
Do you know what "proprtionate" means?...
Yes he does. Do the conversion and check the effects, you'll see he is correct.

Who, you're way too bright for my simpleton mind, please slow down.
Now, you say Vader wanted his prisoners alive, so that is why the AT-ATs weren't firing at full strenght. Oh, okay!
But, wait a minute, you just said that all the shots fired killed someone ( though I clearly remenber rebel soldiers fleeing the scene).
But, didn't Lord Vader want his prisoners alive?
Oh, of course, he only wanted important rebels, like the ones that were hiding inside the base. So, firing at less than full power would ensure their survival.
But, wouldn't firing at a shield generator at full power risk destroying the base?
I mean, imagine the damage of a full power blast, plus the explosion of the generator...
I'm not gonna argue his theory of events.
Where di you get that information (I honestly want to know, I'm not being sarcastic).
I believe it comes from the DS9 TM, but I don't know for sure. However, that is something Trekkies use in debates, the defiant traded power for bleedtrhough (from the plasma, so it always does some damage) and rapidfire
I'm not disputing canon policy, BTW...
Yet you claim the numbers are no good because they are not onscreen. Policy says they still are. So you are disputing it.
As stated earlier, a Nebulon-B is more than a freighter, an at leats twice the size of the rebel cruiser in ANH.
The rebels' medical frigates are modified Nebulon-Bs, according to the official SW site.
See my earlier bit about the Red Rover and the Stennis please. If you are still not convinced, think of it this way: The Rebels are strapped for cash. They don't need military grade shields on this medical ship anymore, even though it would be nice to have them if you enter a combat zone. But you do have a nice light cruiser that could use a shield upgrade. Do you leave the good shields on the ship that does not need them to complete its objectives, or do you put them on the ship that does need them?



The rest of this I have already dealt with.
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Post by Ender »

XaLEv wrote:
Read the begining page, about the technology. IT SAYS THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF THAT . It says that they are lasers, with a plasma tracer.
"Energy Weapons
Energy weapons fire invisible energy beams at lightspeed. The visible "bolt"
is a glowing pulse that travels along the beam at less than lightspeed...The
light given off by visible bolts depletes the overall energy content of a
beam, limiting its range. Turbolasers gain a longer range by spinning the
energy beam, which reduces waste glow."
It does not say that it is a laser.
Know of any other form of energy except light that travels at lightspeed and is invisable in a vacuum?
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Post by Ender »

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:Yes, he's fucking lying about the ICS. It says they fire invisible energy beams at C (notice he never says lasers), while the visible part is a tracer/waste glow.
Are you saying I'm the liar, or he is?
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Post by SirNitram »

All forms of energy move at c and I think most are invisible. You see, lasers, being light, have this funny property of being visible.
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Post by Grand Admiral Thrawn »

Ender wrote:
Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:Yes, he's fucking lying about the ICS. It says they fire invisible energy beams at C (notice he never says lasers), while the visible part is a tracer/waste glow.
Are you saying I'm the liar, or he is?




He is lying. But you are incorrect about them being lasers.
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Post by Ender »

SirNitram wrote:All forms of energy move at c and I think most are invisible. You see, lasers, being light, have this funny property of being visible.
Not in a vacuum they don't. As for the energy moving at C, you mean all that energy that is part of the light specrtum? And thus can fall under the laymans definition of lasers?

OK, I'll grant that it could be grasers or something instead. But the point about how it would behave against a target and my point that the encapsulated plasma theory is not in the book remains the same.
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Post by SirNitram »

All energy moves at c. X-rays, gamma rays, visible light, all energy moves at c. It's part of being energy, unless I've been taught more lies-to-teenagers than I thought. Please name a type of energy not moving at c in a vacuum.
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Post by Eleas »

"Except that on the offcial SW site, they say that Blasters and Turbolasers work on the same principle, if not in the same power range."

Let's follow your "logic". Since lady's gun and the cannon on an A-10 work on the same principle, their power must be in the same power range... right? No. They're not even linearly connected. Nutjob.

"Today's skyscrapers are hundreds of meters high, and defy gravity, yet when you test a chunk of the ciment ( which is part of their construction), you can make a pretty good mark on a wall with a good sledgehammer.
Materials aren't the only things involved in building stuff, think "material engeneering".
How you put it toghether has as much to do with its resistance and capacity to support itself."


My point, oh idiot child, is that the materials are unknown. You want to equate fist-size chunks blown out of walls to mean low power levels. I choose to disagree. I merely point out that these walls would logically not be weaker than contemporary building materials.

"ESB vape scene (1), RotJ battle (aside from the Death Star's firepower-which isn't in question here, ISD's Trubolasers are, no proof)"

It's the same technology. Says so on the official SW page. The Superlaser is an upscaled turbolaser, and unlike a blaster, it has no dissimilar operative concerns.

", AotC asteroid scene (no vape, but admitedly powerful mines, but the Slave just grinded the asteroids with its Blasters),"

But we can still get a benchmark.

"EP2ICS (book, not visual proof),"

Get this: nobody cares about your inability to understand the rules of debate. We follow Lucasfilm's canonicity policy. The fact that you don't understand it is irrelevant to us.

"Destruction of Alderaan (Again, Death Star, not in question)."

It establishes a lower limit for weapons tech, as the larger they get, the less bang for the buck you're likely to get.

"You're right, they don't.
But in ANH, when the X-Wings are attacked, depending on their importance in the movie, when hit by the same Tie weapons, they either:
A-Explode
Or
B-Just get R2 messed up, and break a motivator."


Yes. However, the first example occured when the TIEs were pouring in bolts. The second happened when just a few bolts struck. The simple fact of the matter is that if you imput enough energy into a target, it will blow.

"Lightsabres,"

Could just be a field-contained plasma.

"Hyperspace,"

I explained it already.

"the fact that a gigantic laser beam makes a planet explode instantaneously,"

It's not a laser, as any fool can see.

"when everybody says that lasers only drill holes their width in size.
Han Solo walking with only a respirator mask inside a giant Spaceworm, without worrying about depressurisation."


Can easily be explained by a containment field.

"So are blasters..."

No, blasters could theoretically be made in the near future. They'd be large and clumsy, but the effect could very well be like what we see.

"But, on the official SW site, it is stated that blasters fire laser bolts (I thought lasers only fired in streams), that are, in Turbolasers, augmented with blaster gas.
Sorry about that."


No prob. However, "laser bolts" are verified by AOTC ICS to be something like a brand name. At the very least it's an euphemism.

"No, a magic hat actually.
The same one where Lucas pulls his Turbolaser figures from."


You really think Lucas cares about TL firepower? Shit, if I was him, I'd still be trying to expunge the SW Holiday Christmas Special from the collective mind of the world!

"According to SW official site, Hyperspace is a parallel dimension.
I wonder what law of modern science states that parallel dimensions will be affected by our "shadow" gravity."


What I'm getting at is that we can explain the phenomena seen onscreen, not that the official site makes any kind of sense.

"Can you?"

Sure I can. Just because it's half past four in the morning and I'm sick as a dog doesn't make me any less approachable... I think.

"Forget about the jacket, the weather is improving...
No, really, you may forget about the jacket, because that jacket expalnation came from the same site I had dug my Tibanna gas figures from. (You know, the magic hat...)"


Doesn't matter. As a working theory, the jacketed plasma idea works fine.

"Who, you're way too bright for my simpleton mind, please slow down.
Now, you say Vader wanted his prisoners alive, so that is why the AT-ATs weren't firing at full strenght. Oh, okay!
But, wait a minute, you just said that all the shots fired killed someone ( though I clearly remenber rebel soldiers fleeing the scene)."


Yes. With pinpoint accuracy so as to kill ground troops, not staff officers - which were the ones Vader wanted alive.

"But, didn't Lord Vader want his prisoners alive?
Oh, of course, he only wanted important rebels, like the ones that were hiding inside the base. So, firing at less than full power would ensure their survival.
But, wouldn't firing at a shield generator at full power risk destroying the base?
I mean, imagine the damage of a full power blast, plus the explosion of the generator..."


It's not that far-fetched to believe that the generator was placed a distance off, as a safety margin.

"Where di you get that information (I honestly want to know, I'm not being sarcastic)."

No prob. Visuals. Look in First Contact. The bolts don't vaporize Borg drones - they cause sparklies and far less light than the hand phaser impact. But they're enough to slaughter them (until the Borg adapt, of course).

"I'm not disputing canon policy, BTW..."

But official sources are in play when not overruled by canon. We can ignore them if they state something plainly disproven by canon (which we'd all like to do with Kevin J Anderson's crap, but we can't), but otherwise they stand.

"As stated earlier, a Nebulon-B is more than a freighter, an at leats twice the size of the rebel cruiser in ANH.
The rebels' medical frigates are modified Nebulon-Bs, according to the official SW site."


Correct. They're probably weaker shielded, and of course, they lack heavy weapons.

"Then what range are they, if you please?"

In order to pierce the shields of an ISD without taking all day, they'd have to be on the same order of magnitude as capital ship weapons. That means gigaton-range at the very least.

"Last time I checked, the crust was around 30 km thick, with up to 100 km thickness under some mountain ranges.
And the mantle is roughly 2900 km thick."


Thanks. That makes it easier. Now, the kicker is this: volume matters, not thickness. I have no calculator at hand, but I do know that if the crust would take one hour to evaporate, it would take on the order of weeks to do the same to the mantle.

"You're right again.
Oh my God, that means that everyone who could have verified the data were DOMINION SPIES.
I don't think so..."


Verified what data? What's to say there wasn't just a single person in the chain of command who sent two-way false reports?

"Thus it makes it real.
Of course...NOT!"


No, of course it's not real. However, it isn't blatantly contradictory toward science. It's like me saying "look! There's a man in the air!" compared to "look! There's a man holding himself airborne by the power of God!". Which one would you be more likely to believe?
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Post by Ender »

SirNitram wrote:Please name a type of energy not moving at c in a vacuum.
Ok, retraction on my part. I was thinking radiowaves went slower then C for some reason. A little research on my part proved my wrong.

[clinging at straws]
I'm still right about how they would react against a material though
[/clinging at straws]
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Post by SirNitram »

Ender wrote:
SirNitram wrote:Please name a type of energy not moving at c in a vacuum.
Ok, retraction on my part. I was thinking radiowaves went slower then C for some reason. A little research on my part proved my wrong.

[clinging at straws]
I'm still right about how they would react against a material though
[/clinging at straws]
*casually snips the straws, one by one*

Turbolasers, however, are capable of flak bursts. This may be part of the function of the plasma tracer.

*snip, snip, snip*
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Post by Crossover_Maniac »

[quote="LMSx]Hyperspace-it fits with the multiple dimensions posed by string theory, down to gravity wells affecting objects travelling through.[/quote]

Actually, according to string theory, the added dimensions, 6 total, are described as being 'curled up' and about the size of the Planck lenght (~1E-43 meters).
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Re: Power of Star Wars weapons, a tad bit exagerated

Post by Crossover_Maniac »

Grand Admiral Thrawn wrote:
Crossover_Maniac wrote: He does say that ST made up metals are really ordinary metals renamed after WWIII.
Where? All I heard about ST armour on Mike's site is duranium (which he thinks may possibly be depleted uranium)
From the special technology sub-section in the technology section of http://www.stardestroyer.net
Or do we conclude that these elements must actually be elements which exist within the 20th century periodic table of the elements, and which have been renamed? Of the two theories (fundamentally different laws of atomic stability and a revamped periodic table), the second theory is by far the simpler theory. It is also the more logical theory.

There is much evidence to support this conclusion: a useful isotope of duranium is duranium-235 according to the TM. A useful isotope of uranium is also uranium-235. Therefore, it is highly likely that duranium is actually uranium; many Federation element names are just bi- and tri- prefixes attached to real element names (eg. dilithium, tricobalt, etc., which is extremely odd since lithium and cobalt are both metals and do not form exclusive covalent or ionic bonds as one would expect for a di- or tri- prefixed molecular compound), so tritanium and duranium are probably titanium and uranium. This situation seems strange, but it should be remembered that the Federation homeworld endured a period of severe social, technological, economic, and political upheaval during its late 20th century and early 21st century. During that brief period, the Federation homeworld went through the Eugenics wars, World War 3, and first contact with the Vulcans. It is hardly inconceivable that they might have adopted or modified certain element naming conventions to suit their new Vulcan associates, who must have seemed like saviours from the sky to the fractured, disorganized survivors of their last World War.
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Post by SPOOFE »

Actually, according to string theory, the added dimensions, 6 total, are described as being 'curled up' and about the size of the Planck lenght
Last I heard, String Theory managed to get the theoretical number of dimensions up to 11.

And last I heard, some scientists were theorizing about dimensions as "large" as a centimeter wide.
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Post by His Divine Shadow »

XaLEv wrote:It does not say that it is a laser.
No, but this does:

Pg. 80: The cannon's laser actuator combines high-energy laster gas with a large power charge. (The actuator's prismatic crystal produces the high-energy beam of charged particles coupled with light.)

(ref: The Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology)

Pg. 88: Turbolasers are two-stage supercharged laser cannons. The small primary laser produces an energy beam that enters the turbolaser's main actuator, where it interacts with a stream of energized blaster gas to produce an intense blast.

(ref: The Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology)
The acutator transforms the plasma into a sort of beam, why do this?
Well, range, propagation speed and focus.

And some more:

Pg. 182: "The Yuuzhan Vong vessel poured its most lethal fire into the larger ship, and the cruiser replied with volley after volley of directed light."

(ref: Agents of Chaos)
This suggest the laser is the most damaging component.

Pg. 7: Two New Republic Assault Frigates, the Tyrant's Bane and Liberty Star, cruised in toward the Golan station. Though each ship was less than a third as long as the station, they bristled with fifty laser cannons and poured terajoules of coherent light into the Golan.

(ref: Isard's Revenge)
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Post by Praeothmin »

Well, how to begin?

Ah, I know:
First of all, as I stated in my first post, I think Mr Wong was thorough in his debunking of ST, and he was right that the show (its writers) disregard any real scientific basis when they write technobabble.
But I still think he could've done the same with SW.
Nobody, as of now, has been able to clearly state how Hyperspace did not violate any scientific law, all I got was some (although imaginative) speculations, not based in any real science.
Nobody had any real explanations for lightsabres either.

In both worlds, SW and ST, special effects show us what's right for the show and the story, and weapons and armor vary according to the story arc of the moment, but I will conceide this:
Since Berman and Braga (ST head meisters) have taken control of ST, it is true that real science, or any semblence of it, went right down the drain.

And to close the SW vs ST debate once and for all, I will say this:
If we go by the book, and, willfully ignore any unscientific descriptions in both SW and ST, then it is true that SW's ISDs beat the crap out of the Federation (sorry to all you rabid trekkies out there).
My opening argument was that SW firepower levels were not consistently overpowering, and you have yet to prove it to me.
You have explained yoursleves very well, but aside from the asteroid scene (scaled from a 40m long Falcon, which, if you compare to Solo's height is not), we haven't seen that kind of firepower.
And as for SW books, it seems every SW author of the week takes a new superweapon out of their asses every time they write a story.

Now, because I must, I will say this to the defense of ST:
50 years ago, nobody would have believed us if we had told them that we could make a blind man see.
But today, we can.
The cybernetic eye has been invented.
Sure, it only allows electronic images to be transmittes to the brain, via a pair of highly modified glasses that are coonnected directly on the optic nerves of a person, but still, that person has 3-D images of things, that person "sees".
So, although even I am appalled at ST's inconsistencies in real life science, I still accept what it does because, after all, St is almost 400 years in our future, and since Rodenberry's vision of ST was that it represented the future of mankind, I'm wiiling to accept that in 400 years, there is a possibility we will have a new scientific knowledge.
Think of how computer technology has advanced in only 30 years.

And, BTW, I'm not a rabbid trekkie, nor a flaming warsie, I love both shows equally well.
ST, because it gives me hope that one day, people get past their differences, to be able to explore our galaxy, to:
"Explore strange new worlds, seek out new life and new civilisations, to boldly (although for now, unscientifically) go where no one has gone before.

SW, because it is a pure Space Opera, where nobody cares about real life science (repulsorlifts! Heh), Good vs Evil, and s some of the best fight scenes in modern genre cinema, and of course, most definitly the BEST Starfighter combat scenes anywhere.

So, if we follow canon, and written material, yes, as written, SW kicks ST's ass anyday of the week, including those awful shooting Stormtroopers (they should've kept the clones).

One last thing:
(can't find the damn post, but, here goes)
Of course, steel girders are the back bone of any skyscraper, but without the ciment, helping the girders to stand (because steel will bend, if wou put enough weight on it, and a building is pretty heavy, thank you very much), no skyscraper would resist.
And steel isn't resistant to high heat (go look at why the WTC fell, on sept.11, not the impact, altough steel griders, placed anyway, would have been destroyed).
And Architecture designs buildings, that is they draw those nice little arches, and then ask material engineers if it's possible.
Material engineers are the guys that verify what are the tensile (among other things) properties of building materials, and what is the best way to assemble said materials, to make best use of their strenghts (materail-wise), hence the name Materail Engineering.
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Post by Mr Bean »

Nobody, as of now, has been able to clearly state how Hyperspace did not violate any scientific law, all I got was some (although imaginative) speculations, not based in any real science.
Nobody had any real explanations for lightsabres either.
Yes we did, The same reasoning behind Warp, Its simply a Parrell demension according to String Theory where the *Speed Limit is alot higher than it is in normal space(Try five million times higher)
My opening argument was that SW firepower levels were not consistently overpowering, and you have yet to prove it to me.
200 GT, Stated in a Cannon book, if you want to ignore science or if you want to inculde it THATS STILL A HARD VERVIABLE NUMBER
50 years ago, nobody would have believed us if we had told them that we could make a blind man see.
Incorrect fifty years ago there where blind people and they got thier sight back
The tecnology we use today is mear refinments of things discovered hundreds of years ago
Heck Toms Edison was nearly blind without his Glasses, Yes GLASSES they had those back then
St is almost 400 years in our future, and since Rodenberry's vision of ST was that it represented the future of mankind, I'm wiiling to accept that in 400 years, there is a possibility we will have a new scientific knowledge.
Think of how computer technology has advanced in only 30 years
Theres a diffrence between new tecnology that people never saw before and Violating Laws of Phyisics Captian Brillant

Of course, steel girders are the back bone of any skyscraper, but without the ciment, helping the girders to stand (because steel will bend, if wou put enough weight on it, and a building is pretty heavy, thank you very much), no skyscraper would resist.
*Blink you know not all Skyscrappers are built with Concreat you know? Take the famous example of the STATUE OF LIBERTY sitting out in New-York Harbor, The only concrete you see is the base of the statue and thats because it was the cheapest stable substance you could use at the time, Heck they could have used Rocks or a Giant Base made of Steel if they wanted, did they? No because Concreat was cheap

Also The Space Needle in Settale is another example of a No Concreat Building...

Your not helping yourself here

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Post by Grand Admiral Thrawn »

As they say at ASVS...


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Post by Howedar »

Christ this one's dumb.
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