Power of Star Wars weapons, a tad bit exagerated

[Praeothmin]

All I see, everywhere I look, are warsies happily spouting that Heavy turbolasers are in the gigaton range, and that they are sooo powerful.

But when I watch the movies, I don't see that kind of firepower.
Except for the asteroid scene in EMP, no Imperial has ever demonstrated that level of firepower.

In AotC, the Acclamators are on Geonosis, Firing at the Trade Federation, and all we see when weapons miss is a small puff of sand bleing blown up.

It's the same in ESB, when the Imperial Walkers (AT-AT) fire at the rebels, even with their chin mounted cannons, they make small holes in the ground at the rebels feet.

Blasters make small holes in Stormtrooper armor, and in the walls on Cloud city on Bespin.

Heavy firepower indeed...

And can anyone tell me how a Gigaton level shield (Capital ships light Nebulon-B Medical Frigates, which can resist at least one or two Heavy ISD Turbolaser hit) can be threathened by less than a hundred (In fact, in RotJ, we saw less then a dozen, but lets be fair and say the empire charged with a hundred) Kiloton scale weapons (Tie fighter cannons)?

If you wish to base your power estimates on one incident (in canon SW, that is, the movies), then I will do the same for ST.
In DS9, in the Episode "The Die Is Cast", a fleet of only 10 Romulan Warbirds and 10 Keldon Cardassian ships (Galaxy-class equivalent) attacked a planet.
The Dialogue stated that the crust would be destroyed in less than an hour, and the mantle in less than five.
They effectively destroyed 30% of the crust in the initial volley.
I'm pretty sure their weapons were in the Gigaton range too.

And, although Mr Wong's site is well made, and very interesting to read, and although his scientific knowledge cannot be faulted (at least not by me), I find it interesting that his real-world, modern science arguments, although very pertinent and clear and the ST debunking segment, is sadly not present in his SW side of the site.

We never read how SW science violates any modern principle, or any modern scientific law.

Mr Wong talks about Phaser particles (Nadions = invented) as if he has a hard time believing they could exist, reminding us they aren't real, but foregoes any doubting comments on Tibanna gas, the energy absorbing gas that gives Turbolasers and Blasters their power.

Because, Tibanna gas has an energy absorption of 59% naturally, and 78% once refined, although no gas in real life (as far as my research goes) can absord energy more than 23 or 25%.
Yet mR Wong doesn't critisize it.

Same goes for Warp travel.
Mr Wong says that "If you're willing to believe that Warp travel can exist", or words to that extent (in his comparative trends, more specifically in Warp vs. Hyperspace), yet he willingly accepts Hyperspace and Hypermatter.
What scinetific law states that in Hyperspace, it is normal to encounter "Shadow Mass"?
How can an object in "Realspace" project a Hyperspace "Shadow"?

By the way, any asshole out there thinking of taking this thread as proof that Mr Wong doesn't know anything, Fuck Off.
Mr Wong's scinetific knowledge and expertise are not in question in any way, just his unbiasness vis-a-vis SW and ST.
Waiting for heated responses...now!

[Dark Primus]

In AotC, the Acclamators are on Geonosis, Firing at the Trade Federation, and all we see when weapons miss is a small puff of sand bleing blown up.

I never did saw the Acclamators fire a single shot, but then again i was mostly looking at the clone troopers all the time.

[Mr Bean]

Let the smackdown begin, I'm busy with getting information to help save a family memeber ATM so can anyone else GAT, Wong, Pablo, Ossus, Darkling, SirNitrim, heck even David handle this while I'm busy?

[Crazy_Vasey]

If you wish to base your power estimates on one incident (in canon SW, that is, the movies), then I will do the same for ST.
In DS9, in the Episode "The Die Is Cast", a fleet of only 10 Romulan Warbirds and 10 Keldon Cardassian ships (Galaxy-class equivalent) attacked a planet.
The Dialogue stated that the crust would be destroyed in less than an hour, and the mantle in less than five.
They effectively destroyed 30% of the crust in the initial volley.
I'm pretty sure their weapons were in the Gigaton range too.

This... again...

[Howedar]

I'll take this one, guys.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

All I see, everywhere I look, are warsies happily spouting that Heavy turbolasers are in the gigaton range, and that they are sooo powerful.

But when I watch the movies, I don't see that kind of firepower.
Except for the asteroid scene in EMP, no Imperial has ever demonstrated that level of firepower.

In AotC, the Acclamators are on Geonosis, Firing at the Trade Federation, and all we see when weapons miss is a small puff of sand bleing blown up.

Strange, the Acclamators never fired.

It's the same in ESB, when the Imperial Walkers (AT-AT) fire at the rebels, even with their chin mounted cannons, they make small holes in the ground at the rebels feet.

Firepower can be increased or lowered. Those were against infantry

Blasters make small holes in Stormtrooper armor, and in the walls on Cloud city on Bespin.

Heavy firepower indeed...

LOL! This guy thinks handguns blowing holes in walls isn't impressive!

And can anyone tell me how a Gigaton level shield (Capital ships light Nebulon-B Medical Frigates, which can resist at least one or two Heavy ISD Turbolaser hit) can be threathened by less than a hundred (In fact, in RotJ, we saw less then a dozen, but lets be fair and say the empire charged with a hundred) Kiloton scale weapons (Tie fighter cannons)?

Can use say missles?!

If you wish to base your power estimates on one incident (in canon SW, that is, the movies), then I will do the same for ST.
In DS9, in the Episode "The Die Is Cast", a fleet of only 10 Romulan Warbirds and 10 Keldon Cardassian ships (Galaxy-class equivalent) attacked a planet.
The Dialogue stated that the crust would be destroyed in less than an hour, and the mantle in less than five.
They effectively destroyed 30% of the crust in the initial volley.
I'm pretty sure their weapons were in the Gigaton range too.

NDF effect.

And we don't use ONE example. We use

1. Asteroid vapourization makes light guns multi-megaton.
2. Isard's Revenge makes laser cannons TJ range (.4 kilotons-238 kilotons)
3. BDZ calcs make heavy guns at least multi-gigaton.
4. Slave Ship makes heavy guns multi-gigaton.
5. AOTC: ICS backs up all 4.

And, although Mr Wong's site is well made, and very interesting to read, and although his scientific knowledge cannot be faulted (at least not by me), I find it interesting that his real-world, modern science arguments, although very pertinent and clear and the ST debunking segment, is sadly not present in his SW side of the site.

We never read how SW science violates any modern principle, or any modern scientific law.

Mr Wong talks about Phaser particles (Nadions = invented) as if he has a hard time believing they could exist, reminding us they aren't real, but foregoes any doubting comments on Tibanna gas, the energy absorbing gas that gives Turbolasers and Blasters their power.

Because, Tibanna gas has an energy absorption of 59% naturally, and 78% once refined, although no gas in real life (as far as my research goes) can absord energy more than 23 or 25%.
Yet mR Wong doesn't critisize it.

Mike doesn't normally criticize made up things. Tritanium, Durasteele, etc.

Same goes for Warp travel.
Mr Wong says that "If you're willing to believe that Warp travel can exist", or words to that extent (in his comparative trends, more specifically in Warp vs. Hyperspace), yet he willingly accepts Hyperspace and Hypermatter.
What scinetific law states that in Hyperspace, it is normal to encounter "Shadow Mass"?
How can an object in "Realspace" project a Hyperspace "Shadow"?

By the way, any asshole out there thinking of taking this thread as proof that Mr Wong doesn't know anything, Fuck Off.
Mr Wong's scinetific knowledge and expertise are not in question in any way, just his unbiasness vis-a-vis SW and ST.
Waiting for heated responses...now!

Where does he say that?

[Zoink]

I don't think the acclemators fired any shots...


This site is obviously biased towards Star Wars. As far as I know, this site's purpose is to prove that Star Wars wins most "vs" arguments against Star Trek. I'm sure that you could register "galaxyclassstarship.net" and come up with a number of valid criticisms of Star Wars.

Has it really come to the point were trekkies have run out of ammo and are now asking Mike to come up with criticisms of Star Wars for them??

[Spanky The Dolphin]

If you wish to base your power estimates on one incident (in canon SW, that is, the movies), then I will do the same for ST.
In DS9, in the Episode "The Die Is Cast", a fleet of only 10 Romulan Warbirds and 10 Keldon Cardassian ships (Galaxy-class equivalent) attacked a planet.
The Dialogue stated that the crust would be destroyed in less than an hour, and the mantle in less than five.
They effectively destroyed 30% of the crust in the initial volley.
I'm pretty sure their weapons were in the Gigaton range too.

Jesus-Jumped Up Christ, do you realise that there's a thread about "TDiC" that's only a few days old going on in this very forum?

I've heard of repeating arguments, but shit, give us a break. At least a few weeks or so.

[Howedar]

All I see, everywhere I look, are warsies happily spouting that Heavy turbolasers are in the gigaton range, and that they are sooo powerful.

As stated by the official Attack of the Clones Incredible Cross Sections.

But when I watch the movies, I don't see that kind of firepower.
Except for the asteroid scene in EMP, no Imperial has ever demonstrated that level of firepower.

Nope, the upper limits of Wars firepower have never been shown. No unshielded object has ever been fired upon and not been destroyed, for example.

In AotC, the Acclamators are on Geonosis, Firing at the Trade Federation, and all we see when weapons miss is a small puff of sand bleing blown up.

First of all, Acclamators never fired a shot in AOTC. If they did, they have multiple weapons systems, each with variable yields. In addition, the nature of turbolasers causes weapons hits to appear less spectacular than their power would otherwise indicate: for example, if you fired a 19 kiloton-equivilent laser at Hiroshima, it would drill a nice neat hole through the center of the city and into the ground, but it wouldn't cause explosive effects. Energy weapons by their very nature do not generate explosive effects.

It's the same in ESB, when the Imperial Walkers (AT-AT) fire at the rebels, even with their chin mounted cannons, they make small holes in the ground at the rebels feet.

Same as above, but we also know that the AT-ATs were not firing at maximum firepower (else General Veers would not have ordered "Maximum firepower" when firing on the shield generator).

Blasters make small holes in Stormtrooper armor, and in the walls on Cloud city on Bespin.

Nobody is claiming gigaton-range yields for handheld blasters.

Heavy firepower indeed...

Yep, 200GT as stated by the official AOTC:ICS.

And can anyone tell me how a Gigaton level shield (Capital ships light Nebulon-B Medical Frigates, which can resist at least one or two Heavy ISD Turbolaser hit) can be threathened by less than a hundred (In fact, in RotJ, we saw less then a dozen, but lets be fair and say the empire charged with a hundred) Kiloton scale weapons (Tie fighter cannons)?

First of all, a frigate may not be able to take heavy TL hits. If it could, the Nebulon-B had already taken hits in the battle, and its shielding would reflect this. TIE fighters were not all that were present in the Imperial squadrons, which also had heavier fighters that are believed to carry missiles as well.

If you wish to base your power estimates on one incident (in canon SW, that is, the movies), then I will do the same for ST.
In DS9, in the Episode "The Die Is Cast", a fleet of only 10 Romulan Warbirds and 10 Keldon Cardassian ships (Galaxy-class equivalent) attacked a planet.

We base our power levels (not estimates) on an official source that explicitly states the power levels.

The Dialogue stated that the crust would be destroyed in less than an hour, and the mantle in less than five.
They effectively destroyed 30% of the crust in the initial volley.

The dialogue is incorrect on both counts. First of all, destroying the crust in an hour, then the mantle in five is silly. The mantle of a typical rock planet is orders of magnitude more voluminous than the crust - the mantle is thousands of miles thick, while the crust is about 50 miles thick. This calls the dialogue into question. Now, the visuals definately showed far less than 30% of the crust destroyed: hundred thousand-acre wildfires can be seen from space, but what you're talking about is an area greater in size than Asia, all glowing. This was definately not seen. In addition, false sensor readings were stated to be sent up from the surface, indicating that the 30% estimate may be based on erroneous data.

I'm pretty sure their weapons were in the Gigaton range too.

Yes, as indicated by the fantastic destructive effects shown in the TDiC visuals :rolleyes:

And, although Mr Wong's site is well made, and very interesting to read, and although his scientific knowledge cannot be faulted (at least not by me), I find it interesting that his real-world, modern science arguments, although very pertinent and clear and the ST debunking segment, is sadly not present in his SW side of the site.

As opposed to your pathetic Trekkie arguments that no doubt leave your keyboard sticky?

We never read how SW science violates any modern principle, or any modern scientific law.

That is because SW never had treknobabble, or cracks in black holes, or different species reproducing to create fertile offspring, or violation of conservation of matter...

Mr Wong talks about Phaser particles (Nadions = invented) as if he has a hard time believing they could exist, reminding us they aren't real, but foregoes any doubting comments on Tibanna gas, the energy absorbing gas that gives Turbolasers and Blasters their power.

Because, Tibanna gas has an energy absorption of 59% naturally, and 78% once refined, although no gas in real life (as far as my research goes) can absord energy more than 23 or 25%.
Yet mR Wong doesn't critisize it.

Different gasses are more likely to exist than some kind of crazy particle that isn't even internally consistent, let alone consistent with the laws of science.

Same goes for Warp travel.
Mr Wong says that "If you're willing to believe that Warp travel can exist", or words to that extent (in his comparative trends, more specifically in Warp vs. Hyperspace), yet he willingly accepts Hyperspace and Hypermatter.
What scinetific law states that in Hyperspace, it is normal to encounter "Shadow Mass"?
How can an object in "Realspace" project a Hyperspace "Shadow"?

You're comparing different parts of the website, specifically the part under "suspension of disbelief" and the real-life science essays.

By the way, any asshole out there thinking of taking this thread as proof that Mr Wong doesn't know anything, Fuck Off.
Mr Wong's scinetific knowledge and expertise are not in question in any way, just his unbiasness vis-a-vis SW and ST.
Waiting for heated responses...now!

Any bias Mike may or may not hold does not affect his arguments or his calculations based on real science and math.

[starfury]

damm didn't you notice that mike's estiamates of SW firepower is CONSERVATIVE, he did so as to not let the empire shatter the feds with a single ISD, the ST firepower estimates were all generous calc anyways as he gives the federation a 64 megaton photon torpedo and 128 megaton quatam torp, both which are are very generous.

we never saw on screen them having that much power as even a KT level nuke can destory a city. if based on dialogue alone we say photon torpedos are in the ranges of tons of TNT as one ioston = 1 ton of tnt, not very powerful is it.

[Howedar]

Ignorant newbie, feel free to refute only one of the two long posts, since GAT and I raised essentially the same points.

[Ender]

But when I watch the movies, I don't see that kind of firepower.
Except for the asteroid scene in EMP, no Imperial has ever demonstrated that level of firepower.

In AotC, the Acclamators are on Geonosis, Firing at the Trade Federation, and all we see when weapons miss is a small puff of sand bleing blown up.

We never see the Acclamators fire. Those were LAATs shooting.

It's the same in ESB, when the Imperial Walkers (AT-AT) fire at the rebels, even with their chin mounted cannons, they make small holes in the ground at the rebels feet.

Go research the effects lasers have on something, would you?

Blasters make small holes in Stormtrooper armor, and in the walls on Cloud city on Bespin.

And Han's Blaster take huge chunks out of the reinforced docking bay walls in ANH

Heavy firepower indeed...

And can anyone tell me how a Gigaton level shield (Capital ships light Nebulon-B Medical Frigates, which can resist at least one or two Heavy ISD Turbolaser hit) can be threathened by less than a hundred (In fact, in RotJ, we saw less then a dozen, but lets be fair and say the empire charged with a hundred) Kiloton scale weapons (Tie fighter cannons)?

If it's a medical ship, it doesn't have military grade shielding on it.

If you wish to base your power estimates on one incident (in canon SW, that is, the movies), then I will do the same for ST.
In DS9, in the Episode "The Die Is Cast", a fleet of only 10 Romulan Warbirds and 10 Keldon Cardassian ships (Galaxy-class equivalent) attacked a planet.
The Dialogue stated that the crust would be destroyed in less than an hour, and the mantle in less than five.
They effectively destroyed 30% of the crust in the initial volley.

Fine and dandy, except we can't use it for calcs. If they had said "vaporized", "melted", or any more descriptive word, we could use it for calcs. But destroyed can mean anything from leveling cities to blasting a tunnel down to the core. As a result, its a nice peice of dialogue, but useless in debates.

I'm pretty sure their weapons were in the Gigaton range too.

Well hey, if you're convinced, then why the hell shouldn't we be?

And, although Mr Wong's site is well made, and very interesting to read, and although his scientific knowledge cannot be faulted (at least not by me), I find it interesting that his real-world, modern science arguments, although very pertinent and clear and the ST debunking segment, is sadly not present in his SW side of the site.

We never read how SW science violates any modern principle, or any modern scientific law.

Mr Wong talks about Phaser particles (Nadions = invented) as if he has a hard time believing they could exist, reminding us they aren't real, but foregoes any doubting comments on Tibanna gas, the energy absorbing gas that gives Turbolasers and Blasters their power.

Because, Tibanna gas has an energy absorption of 59% naturally, and 78% once refined, although no gas in real life (as far as my research goes) can absord energy more than 23 or 25%.
Yet mR Wong doesn't critisize it.

Source on Tibanna Gas please.

And no, using your ass as a source for numbers does not make them canon.

Same goes for Warp travel.
Mr Wong says that "If you're willing to believe that Warp travel can exist", or words to that extent (in his comparative trends, more specifically in Warp vs. Hyperspace), yet he willingly accepts Hyperspace and Hypermatter.
What scinetific law states that in Hyperspace, it is normal to encounter "Shadow Mass"?
How can an object in "Realspace" project a Hyperspace "Shadow"?

It's this magical force known as GRAVITY. See, this GRAVITY exerts influence on everything, if only on a small scale. As a result, GRAVITY affects space-time and "hyperspace" along with it.

By the way, any asshole out there thinking of taking this thread as proof that Mr Wong doesn't know anything, Fuck Off.
Mr Wong's scinetific knowledge and expertise are not in question in any way, just his unbiasness vis-a-vis SW and ST.

Your criticism towards someone elses bias is only valid when you are unbiased as well.

Waiting for heated responses...now!

So you admit coming here to troll? Good, then I won't feel any remorse about mocking your errors.

[Praeothmin]

First of all, Acclamators never fired a shot in AOTC

Sorry, my mistake (as well as for double posting)...

In addition, the nature of turbolasers causes weapons hits to appear less spectacular than their power would otherwise indicate: for example, if you fired a 19 kiloton-equivilent laser at Hiroshima, it would drill a nice neat hole through the center of the city and into the ground, but it wouldn't cause explosive effects. Energy weapons by their very nature do not generate explosive effects.

Well, as stated in AotC incredible cross section, Turbolasers aren't lasers, they're plasma weapons, using heated gas to deliver energy, by way of energetic discharges (or nothing would ever blow in SW, and weapons would only drill holes, yet we see explosions).
They use an electron magnetic jacket to deliver the heated, excited and charged gas to the target.


[/quote]Same as above, but we also know that the AT-ATs were not firing at maximum firepower (else General Veers would not have ordered "Maximum firepower" when firing on the shield generator).

Of course, he couldn't have possibly been firing at full power, since that would have meant he would have killed all opposing forces quickly, thus not lose two AT-ATs, and a few AT-STsin the attack...

[/quote]Nobody is claiming gigaton-range yields for handheld blasters.

Neither am I. What I'm saying is that blasters, although they work on the same principle as Turbolasers, don't have the proportionate firepower supposedly exibited by Turbolasers.

Yep, 200GT as stated by the official AOTC:ICS.

Again, proven only once (asteroids in ESB)...

First of all, a frigate may not be able to take heavy TL hits. If it could, the Nebulon-B had already taken hits in the battle, and its shielding would reflect this

It was at the start of the battle, Lando Calrissian specifically stated:
"Keep those fighters (most of whom where ties, and as I said, we only saw less than a dozen) away from the Medical Frigate."
And every source book I read stated Nebulon-Bs as capital ships, with Capital ship shields.

TIE fighters were not all that were present in the Imperial squadrons, which also had heavier fighters that are believed to carry missiles as well.

In the Megaton range, from what I was lead to believe.
Last I checked, a Gigaton was one million times more powerful than a Kiloton, and a thousand times more powerful than a Megaton.
If a ship's shields could take only one hit of 200 Gigatons, how many Megaton missiles and Kilotons blasts do you think would be needed?

The dialogue is incorrect on both counts. First of all, destroying the crust in an hour, then the mantle in five is silly.

So is blowing up a planet in one Super shot...
As well as reducing the surface of a planet to slag...

. Now, the visuals definately showed far less than 30% of the crust destroyed: hundred thousand-acre wildfires can be seen from space, but what you're talking about is an area greater in size than Asia, all glowing. This was definately not seen. In addition, false sensor readings were stated to be sent up from the surface, indicating that the 30% estimate may be based on erroneous data.

I cannot deny what you say about the visual, I haven't seen the episode in some time, but as for the sensor readings...
The lifesigns were false, but why would anyone care to send false destruction readings.
Do you think that when they built the Death Star, they said:
"Oh I sure hope it does what we planned and blow up a planet."
No, they built it after careful planning and calculations were made, and they were certain they could do it.
Same goes for two organisations like the Obsidian Order and the Tal'Shiar, if they go to some planet to destroy it, it's because they calculated that they could.
I wouldn't hunt a Moose with a BB gun, unless I was sure it could kill it. I would take a weapon that I knew would do the job.

Yes, as indicated by the fantastic destructive effects shown in the TDiC visuals :rolleyes

That are just as fantastic as those shown in the SW movies...

As opposed to your pathetic Trekkie arguments that no doubt leave your keyboard sticky

Naw, don't worry about it, I always clean up afterwards.

Different gasses are more likely to exist than some kind of crazy particle that isn't even internally consistent, let alone consistent with the laws of science.

Unlike Hypermatter...

Any bias Mike may or may not hold does not affect his arguments or his calculations based on real science and math.

That were not used against SW, which was the point of my original (double) post.

[Eleas]

(Praeothmin)
"All I see, everywhere I look, are warsies happily spouting that Heavy turbolasers are in the gigaton range, and that they are sooo powerful."

Standard flamebait from ignorant fanboy... check.

"But when I watch the movies, I don't see that kind of firepower."

That's because you're stupid. Throughout the movies, we never see them fire, except in the far distance.

"Except for the asteroid scene in EMP, no Imperial has ever demonstrated that level of firepower."

Against what? They've demonstrated comparable levels of firepower. We know this because we think scientifically, something you'll never be able to do.

"In AotC, the Acclamators are on Geonosis, Firing at the Trade Federation, and all we see when weapons miss is a small puff of sand bleing blown up."

Ohh. And ground weaponry would equate to heavy starship batteries how?

"It's the same in ESB, when the Imperial Walkers (AT-AT) fire at the rebels, even with their chin mounted cannons, they make small holes in the ground at the rebels feet."

Of course, not only is there no connection between the power of a land vehicle and the power of a starship, but blaster bolts are focused! Hence, they would dissipate linearly into the snow! And we know from the movie they're set at low power against speeders and infantry!

"Blasters make small holes in Stormtrooper armor, and in the walls on Cloud city on Bespin."

To call you a retard would be an insult to retards everywhere. Go soak your head in battery acid.

This is obvious to anyone but you: SW building materials allow structures on the scale of the Death Star. Do you really think such materials are weak? Here's a hint: if a very strong material is damaged by a weapon, the weapon might be very strong, too.

"And can anyone tell me how a Gigaton level shield (Capital ships light Nebulon-B Medical Frigates, which can resist at least one or two Heavy ISD Turbolaser hit)"

Proof? They specifically stayed away from the fire arcs of the HTL cannon.

"can be threathened by less than a hundred (In fact, in RotJ, we saw less then a dozen, but lets be fair and say the empire charged with a hundred) Kiloton scale weapons (Tie fighter cannons)?"

Your attempt at understanding the situation is, like your mind, devoid of thought. The TIEs were establishing space supremacy so the BOMBERS could move in.

"If you wish to base your power estimates on one incident (in canon SW, that is, the movies), then I will do the same for ST."

No, we base the power estimates on several incidents. The ESB vape scene, the ROTJ battle, the AOTC asteroid scene, the EP2ICS, the Slave Ship quote, the destruction of Alderaan. Just to name a few.

"In DS9, in the Episode "The Die Is Cast", a fleet of only 10 Romulan Warbirds and 10 Keldon Cardassian ships (Galaxy-class equivalent) attacked a planet.
The Dialogue stated that the crust would be destroyed in less than an hour, and the mantle in less than five.
They effectively destroyed 30% of the crust in the initial volley."

No, they didn't. Visuals clearly show this.

"I'm pretty sure their weapons were in the Gigaton range too."

To be generous, they could be rated at around the ten megaton range.

"And, although Mr Wong's site is well made, and very interesting to read, and although his scientific knowledge cannot be faulted (at least not by me), I find it interesting that his real-world, modern science arguments, although very pertinent and clear and the ST debunking segment, is sadly not present in his SW side of the site."

So, you admit that his science is flawless, but then go on to state that his engineering analysis of Star Trek's horrendous blunders should be extended to SW. Why? SW ships don't explode for no reason. The characters don't continuously spout disgusting amounts of technobabble. Their tactics usually work, unlike in ST, and when they don't, there's a reason for it (such as the Emperor's disregard for the lives of his subordinates).

"We never read how SW science violates any modern principle, or any modern scientific law."

Well, does it?

"Mr Wong talks about Phaser particles (Nadions = invented) as if he has a hard time believing they could exist, reminding us they aren't real, but foregoes any doubting comments on Tibanna gas,"

Phasers are complete fantasy-tech. They require a hideously complicated explanation that in all honesty only makes sense on paper. In reality, the chain reaction would hardly be so fine tuned as not to continue eating the floor under the vaporized victim.

"the energy absorbing gas that gives Turbolasers and Blasters their power."

Who says it's energy absorbing?

"Because, Tibanna gas has an energy absorption of 59% naturally, and 78% once refined, although no gas in real life (as far as my research goes) can absord energy more than 23 or 25%.
Yet mR Wong doesn't critisize it."

Maybe because he, like me, hasn't heard of these numbers. Obviously, you pulled them out of your ass.

"Same goes for Warp travel.
Mr Wong says that "If you're willing to believe that Warp travel can exist", or words to that extent (in his comparative trends, more specifically in Warp vs. Hyperspace), yet he willingly accepts Hyperspace and Hypermatter.
What scinetific law states that in Hyperspace, it is normal to encounter "Shadow Mass"?"

Warp requires subspace, a self-contradictory theory, as well as more energy that could be harnessed by the Federation in its lifetime.

Hyperdrive can be theorised to work by converting bradyonic matter to tachyonic matter.

"How can an object in "Realspace" project a Hyperspace "Shadow"?"

If hyperspace travel means going tachyonic, it's easy to describe that.

"By the way, any asshole out there thinking of taking this thread as proof that Mr Wong doesn't know anything, Fuck Off.
Mr Wong's scinetific knowledge and expertise are not in question in any way, just his unbiasness vis-a-vis SW and ST."

Hmmm... *raises eyebrows* You surprise me. My respect for you jumped a notch. It's still pretty low because of your ignorance and illogic, but at least you can be reasoned with.

[Mr Bean]

I'll take a break since the forums slow today and handle this,

Well, as stated in AotC incredible cross section, Turbolasers aren't lasers, they're plasma weapons, using heated gas to deliver energy, by way of energetic discharges (or nothing would ever blow in SW, and weapons would only drill holes, yet we see explosions).
They use an electron magnetic jacket to deliver the heated, excited and charged gas to the target.

Prehaps because thats FUEL, Torps(Which DO expoded) or tentary type exposions(IE its hot enough to cause flashfires and since fires don't burn in space due to lack of oxegen prehaps that is simply the atomsphere being relased then quickly burning off thus the *expolsion, Of course thats just IN ADDITION to everything else already mentioned

Or to put it another way
If we used a Laser and Drilled a Two foot hole through the side of the USS Enterprice do you think we might have an expolsion or two along the way(USS as in United States ship Not the Other Enterpize)

Of course, he couldn't have possibly been firing at full power, since that would have meant he would have killed all opposing forces quickly, thus not lose two AT-ATs, and a few AT-STsin the attack...

Why don't we use .70 Cal Ammo Aginst Infantry? Because .30 Cal does it just fine, IF the firepower is already killing the targets how does upping it help at all? Remeber thier in a fixed defense line, the only thing your going to hit if you up the power is SNOW!

Neither am I. What I'm saying is that blasters, although they work on the same principle as Turbolasers, don't have the proportionate firepower supposedly exibited by Turbolasers.

Well maybe thats because one has vaslty more-power than the other?
Prehaps this did not occure to you but having a Gun that shots not only the target but burns off all the air in the area and choking you to death would be bad, NTM the two ton power generator you'd have to wheel around with you...

It was at the start of the battle, Lando Calrissian specifically stated:
"Keep those fighters (most of whom where ties, and as I said, we only saw less than a dozen) away from the Medical Frigate."
And every source book I read stated Nebulon-Bs as capital ships, with Capital ship shields.

Prehaps you've not heard of a little thing called Scalling Or Why that Rebel Blocade Runner did not have as much shields as the ISD chasing it in ANH
ITS A MEDICAL FRIGIT, The Neb-B is not desgined to BE a Medical ship, IE meaning they had to yank out room for Doctors, Driods, Bacta Tanks, Shuttles and what-not, And on a ship of war know what gets take out to get more room? WEAPONRY AND SHIELDING

Consdering by the Rules of War that Medical Ships are supposed to be both Unarmed and unshielded and not attacked by either side(Why no one bombs field hospitals though its a great chance to kill lots of Doctors and enemy soliders...)

So is blowing up a planet in one Super shot...
As well as reducing the surface of a planet to slag...

Diffrence Captian Brillant, We've Seen a Planet Blow up, As for Slagging check the EU we've read about that to

And ST? Never seen it done check the already long draw out thread about that epsoided

Yes, as indicated by the fantastic destructive effects shown in the TDiC visuals :rolleyes

Yes those Forest Fires , you know I can do that with a Match and some Gasoline...

[Eleas]

(Praeothmin)
"Well, as stated in AotC incredible cross section, Turbolasers aren't lasers, they're plasma weapons, using heated gas to deliver energy, by way of energetic discharges (or nothing would ever blow in SW, and weapons would only drill holes, yet we see explosions).
They use an electron magnetic jacket to deliver the heated, excited and charged gas to the target."

Yes. We also see that this jacket is powerful enough to affect targets before the bolt touches. It could very well drill a hole for the bolt.

"Of course, he couldn't have possibly been firing at full power, since that would have meant he would have killed all opposing forces quickly, thus not lose two AT-ATs, and a few AT-STsin the attack..."

You simpleton. Every shot he fired killed its target. Also, Vader wanted his prisoners alive, thus the need for pinpoint accuracy. A full power shot in the trenches would likely have created vast amounts of steam, no more.

"Neither am I. What I'm saying is that blasters, although they work on the same principle as Turbolasers, don't have the proportionate firepower supposedly exibited by Turbolasers."

That's because they don't need to. They are designed to incapacitate, in some cases kill, their targets. That's what they do, and higher levels of firepower would be redundant. Kinda like how the FC Pulse Phaser delivers less energy than the beam phasers do. Delivering excess energy into a target is wasteful of ammunition.

"Again, proven only once (asteroids in ESB)..."

Official, and unless disproven it's valid. Go read Lucasfilm's canon policy, and then suck it.

"It was at the start of the battle, Lando Calrissian specifically stated:
"Keep those fighters (most of whom where ties, and as I said, we only saw less than a dozen) away from the Medical Frigate."
And every source book I read stated Nebulon-Bs as capital ships, with Capital ship shields."

Capital ships are ships above light freighter class, kemosabe. Building shield estimates on that is futile.

The other point I already refuted.

"In the Megaton range, from what I was lead to believe."

Then you were misled.

"Last I checked, a Gigaton was one million times more powerful than a Kiloton, and a thousand times more powerful than a Megaton.
If a ship's shields could take only one hit of 200 Gigatons, how many Megaton missiles and Kilotons blasts do you think would be needed?"

Don't know, don't care. Thanks to AOTC ICS we know the true yields, so the megaton yield idea, like your argument, evaporates.

"So is blowing up a planet in one Super shot...
As well as reducing the surface of a planet to slag..."

Obviously, you have no idea of just how big the mantle is in comparison to the crust.

"Do you think that when they built the Death Star, they said:
"Oh I sure hope it does what we planned and blow up a planet."
No, they built it after careful planning and calculations were made, and they were certain they could do it.
Same goes for two organisations like the Obsidian Order and the Tal'Shiar, if they go to some planet to destroy it, it's because they calculated that they could.
I wouldn't hunt a Moose with a BB gun, unless I was sure it could kill it. I would take a weapon that I knew would do the job."

Possibly. However, there is an important point you conspiciously fail to consider. The Task Force Had Been Infiltrated By The Dominion!!!!!! Even on an operative level, or the fleet would never have been led to the wrong planet.

"That are just as fantastic as those shown in the SW movies..."

Ohhh.... so the DS doesn't[/b] blow up Alderaan? Amazing, I must have hallucinated then.

"Unlike Hypermatter..."

Hypermatter isn't explained, unlike subspace or the weird particle of the week.

[Crossover_Maniac]

All I see, everywhere I look, are warsies happily spouting that Heavy turbolasers are in the gigaton range, and that they are sooo powerful.

But when I watch the movies, I don't see that kind of firepower.
Except for the asteroid scene in EMP, no Imperial has ever demonstrated that level of firepower.

In AotC, the Acclamators are on Geonosis, Firing at the Trade Federation, and all we see when weapons miss is a small puff of sand bleing blown up.

The official SWII:Incredible Cross-Section says the heavy turbolasers generate 200 gigatons a shot. This means the heavy turbolasers generate 200 gigatons a shot. Also, in close range combat, you don't use your stragetic weapons. The heavy turbolasers are used for ship-to-ship battles and orbital bombardment.

It's the same in ESB, when the Imperial Walkers (AT-AT) fire at the rebels, even with their chin mounted cannons, they make small holes in the ground at the rebels feet.

Blasters make small holes in Stormtrooper armor, and in the walls on Cloud city on Bespin.

Heavy firepower indeed...

And can anyone tell me how a Gigaton level shield (Capital ships light Nebulon-B Medical Frigates, which can resist at least one or two Heavy ISD Turbolaser hit) can be threathened by less than a hundred (In fact, in RotJ, we saw less then a dozen, but lets be fair and say the empire charged with a hundred) Kiloton scale weapons (Tie fighter cannons)?

If you wish to base your power estimates on one incident (in canon SW, that is, the movies), then I will do the same for ST.
In DS9, in the Episode "The Die Is Cast", a fleet of only 10 Romulan Warbirds and 10 Keldon Cardassian ships (Galaxy-class equivalent) attacked a planet.
The Dialogue stated that the crust would be destroyed in less than an hour, and the mantle in less than five.
They effectively destroyed 30% of the crust in the initial volley.
I'm pretty sure their weapons were in the Gigaton range too.

And, although Mr Wong's site is well made, and very interesting to read, and although his scientific knowledge cannot be faulted (at least not by me), I find it interesting that his real-world, modern science arguments, although very pertinent and clear and the ST debunking segment, is sadly not present in his SW side of the site.

We never read how SW science violates any modern principle, or any modern scientific law.

Mr Wong talks about Phaser particles (Nadions = invented) as if he has a hard time believing they could exist, reminding us they aren't real, but foregoes any doubting comments on Tibanna gas, the energy absorbing gas that gives Turbolasers and Blasters their power.

Because, Tibanna gas has an energy absorption of 59% naturally, and 78% once refined, although no gas in real life (as far as my research goes) can absord energy more than 23 or 25%.
Yet mR Wong doesn't critisize it.

Same goes for Warp travel.
Mr Wong says that "If you're willing to believe that Warp travel can exist", or words to that extent (in his comparative trends, more specifically in Warp vs. Hyperspace), yet he willingly accepts Hyperspace and Hypermatter.
What scinetific law states that in Hyperspace, it is normal to encounter "Shadow Mass"?
How can an object in "Realspace" project a Hyperspace "Shadow"?

By the way, any asshole out there thinking of taking this thread as proof that Mr Wong doesn't know anything, Fuck Off.
Mr Wong's scinetific knowledge and expertise are not in question in any way, just his unbiasness vis-a-vis SW and ST.
Waiting for heated responses...now!

[Crossover_Maniac]

About the last post. The only thing I actually said in that post was

The official SWII:Incredible Cross-Section says the heavy turbolasers generate 200 gigatons a shot. This means the heavy turbolasers generate 200 gigatons a shot. Also, in close range combat, you don't use your stragetic weapons. The heavy turbolasers are used for ship-to-ship battles and orbital bombardment.

The rest is from the person I was replying to.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Mania, I put his post in quotes.

[Praeothmin]

Of course, not only is there no connection between the power of a land vehicle and the power of a starship, but blaster bolts are focused! Hence, they would dissipate linearly into the snow! And we know from the movie they're set at low power against speeders and infantry

Except that on the offcial SW site, they say that Blasters and Turbolasers work on the same principle, if not in the same power range.

This is obvious to anyone but you: SW building materials allow structures on the scale of the Death Star. Do you really think such materials are weak? Here's a hint: if a very strong material is damaged by a weapon, the weapon might be very strong, too.

Today's skyscrapers are hundreds of meters high, and defy gravity, yet when you test a chunk of the ciment ( which is part of their construction), you can make a pretty good mark on a wall with a good sledgehammer.
Materials aren't the only things involved in building stuff, think "material engeneering".
How you put it toghether has as much to do with its resistance and capacity to support itself.

No, we base the power estimates on several incidents. The ESB vape scene, the ROTJ battle, the AOTC asteroid scene, the EP2ICS, the Slave Ship quote, the destruction of Alderaan. Just to name a few

ESB vape scene (1), RotJ battle (aside from the Death Star's firepower-which isn't in question here, ISD's Trubolasers are, no proof), AotC asteroid scene (no vape, but admitedly powerful mines, but the Slave just grinded the asteroids with its Blasters), EP2ICS (book, not visual proof), Destruction of Alderaan (Again, Death Star, not in question).

SW ships don't explode for no reason. The characters don't continuously spout disgusting amounts of technobabble. Their tactics usually work, unlike in ST, and when they don't, there's a reason for it (such as the Emperor's disregard for the lives of his subordinates).

You're right, they don't.
But in ANH, when the X-Wings are attacked, depending on their importance in the movie, when hit by the same Tie weapons, they either:
A-Explode
Or
B-Just get R2 messed up, and break a motivator.

"We never read how SW science violates any modern principle, or any modern scientific law."

Well, does it?

Lightsabres, Hyperspace, the fact that a gigantic laser beam makes a planet explode instantaneously, when everybody says that lasers only drill holes their width in size.
Han Solo walking with only a respirator mask inside a giant Spaceworm, without worrying about depressurisation.
I think it does...

Phasers are complete fantasy-tech. They require a hideously complicated explanation that in all honesty only makes sense on paper. In reality, the chain reaction would hardly be so fine tuned as not to continue eating the floor under the vaporized victim.

So are blasters...
I was wrong about the figures for Tibanna gas, I had thought that the site on which I had seen them had taken its source from acceptable material, but I can't find their sources for Tibanna gas.
But, on the official SW site, it is stated that blasters fire laser bolts (I thought lasers only fired in streams), that are, in Turbolasers, augmented with blaster gas.
Sorry about that.

Obviously, you pulled them out of your ass

No, a magic hat actually.
The same one where Lucas pulls his Turbolaser figures from.

Hyperdrive can be theorised to work by converting bradyonic matter to tachyonic matter

According to SW official site, Hyperspace is a parallel dimension.
I wonder what law of modern science states that parallel dimensions will be affected by our "shadow" gravity.

but at least you can be reasoned with.

Can you?

ITS A MEDICAL FRIGIT, The Neb-B is not desgined to BE a Medical ship, IE meaning they had to yank out room for Doctors, Driods, Bacta Tanks, Shuttles and what-not, And on a ship of war know what gets take out to get more room? WEAPONRY AND SHIELDING

SW official site says only a few weapons emplacement were taken off.

Consdering by the Rules of War that Medical Ships are supposed to be both Unarmed and unshielded and not attacked by either side(Why no one bombs field hospitals though its a great chance to kill lots of Doctors and enemy soliders...)

Where does that rule come from. (unshielded medical ships? Sheeesh...)

Why don't we use .70 Cal Ammo Aginst Infantry? Because .30 Cal does it just fine, IF the firepower is already killing the targets how does upping it help at all? Remeber thier in a fixed defense line, the only thing your going to hit if you up the power is SNOW!

Why not blanket Hiroshima in a shitload of bombs? It'll destroy a lot of buildings.
Oh, yeah, we want to win the war, that's why...

Well maybe thats because one has vaslty more-power than the other?
Prehaps this did not occure to you but having a Gun that shots not only the target but burns off all the air in the area and choking you to death would be bad, NTM the two ton power generator you'd have to wheel around

Do you know what "proprtionate" means?...

Yes. We also see that this jacket is powerful enough to affect targets before the bolt touches. It could very well drill a hole for the bolt.

Forget about the jacket, the weather is improving...
No, really, you may forget about the jacket, because that jacket expalnation came from the same site I had dug my Tibanna gas figures from. (You know, the magic hat...)

You simpleton. Every shot he fired killed its target. Also, Vader wanted his prisoners alive , thus the need for pinpoint accuracy. A full power shot in the trenches would likely have created vast amounts of steam, no more

Who, you're way too bright for my simpleton mind, please slow down.
Now, you say Vader wanted his prisoners alive, so that is why the AT-ATs weren't firing at full strenght. Oh, okay!
But, wait a minute, you just said that all the shots fired killed someone ( though I clearly remenber rebel soldiers fleeing the scene).
But, didn't Lord Vader want his prisoners alive?
Oh, of course, he only wanted important rebels, like the ones that were hiding inside the base. So, firing at less than full power would ensure their survival.
But, wouldn't firing at a shield generator at full power risk destroying the base?
I mean, imagine the damage of a full power blast, plus the explosion of the generator...

the FC Pulse Phaser delivers less energy than the beam phasers do

Where di you get that information (I honestly want to know, I'm not being sarcastic).

Go read Lucasfilm's canon policy, and then suck it

I'm not disputing canon policy, BTW...

Capital ships are ships above light freighter class, kemosabe. Building shield estimates on that is futile.

As stated earlier, a Nebulon-B is more than a freighter, an at leats twice the size of the rebel cruiser in ANH.
The rebels' medical frigates are modified Nebulon-Bs, according to the official SW site.

Then you were misled.

Then what range are they, if you please?

Obviously, you have no idea of just how big the mantle is in comparison to the crust

Last time I checked, the crust was around 30 km thick, with up to 100 km thickness under some mountain ranges.
And the mantle is roughly 2900 km thick.

Possibly. However, there is an important point you conspiciously fail to consider. The Task Force Had Been Infiltrated By The Dominion!!!!!! Even on an operative level, or the fleet would never have been led to the wrong planet

You're right again.
Oh my God, that means that everyone who could have verified the data were DOMINION SPIES.
I don't think so...

Hypermatter isn't explained, unlike subspace or the weird particle of the week

Thus it makes it real.
Of course...NOT!

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Respond to my post.

[Crossover_Maniac]

Respond to my post.

Which one?

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Respond to my post.

Which one?

My one oblitering his argument.

[Crossover_Maniac]

All I see, everywhere I look, are warsies happily spouting that Heavy turbolasers are in the gigaton range, and that they are sooo powerful.

But when I watch the movies, I don't see that kind of firepower.
Except for the asteroid scene in EMP, no Imperial has ever demonstrated that level of firepower.

In AotC, the Acclamators are on Geonosis, Firing at the Trade Federation, and all we see when weapons miss is a small puff of sand bleing blown up.

Strange, the Acclamators never fired.

Considering that the battle was a ground battle, good thing it didn't. 200 GT would roast every clone within line of sight of ground zero.

NDF effect.

NDF? What does that stand for?

Mike doesn't normally criticize made up things. Tritanium, Durasteele, etc.

He does say that ST made up metals are really ordinary metals renamed after WWIII.

[SirNitram]

NDF is an acronym from the Trek TM, used to describe the Phaser's magic process. It basically boils down to 'Something Funky'.