I need some debate help

[Vehrec]

I think they're talking about the omega 'molecule' from voyager, that even the borg couldn't safely used. The one that destroys subspace somehow or something. It's another example of one episode tech.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

I think they're talking about the omega 'molecule' from voyager, that even the borg couldn't safely used. The one that destroys subspace somehow or something. It's another example of one episode tech.

Where they forget that the Borg lost 29 ships and 600,000 drones in the process of creating one

[hunter5]

Ugh that marshall kid is persistent

[SilverWingedSeraph]

"If it's called a laser then it's a laser, even if it doesn't look or act like a laser."

That's some brilliant logic there. I'm blown away. Honestly, reading the Wars vs Trek arguments there made my brain hurt, so I decided to stop before it gave me a fucking aneurysm or something.

[Srelex]

Have you pointed out that the weapons used by the Borg to damage the Enterprise in Q Who were specifically identified as lasers?

[hunter5]

Someone else did. He counters by uses that trekkie argument about some borg shield draining tech so his point still stands .

[Srelex]

Has he cited the other non-Borg cases where lasers are apprarently a threat? Or maybe they'll just counter by staying that the Enterprise's shields were screwed up by some local technobabbleonic particle...

[hunter5]

Okay I was mistaken no one has used the borg cutting laser argument yet.

[hunter5]

He is now trying to get something called the ICC declared non canon by saying since it uses the word lasers to describe x wing weapons and since they don't act like lasers in the movies the ICC isn't canon there for the 200 gigaton firepower isn't valid

[Srelex]

He is now trying to get something called the ICC declared non canon by saying since it uses the word lasers to describe x wing weapons and since they don't act like lasers in the movies the ICC isn't canon there for the 200 gigaton firepower isn't valid

I'll check to see if he's right, but you could say that as photon torpedoes don't travel through water and don't have propellors, they aren't actually torpedoes, so the Enterprise has one less armament.

Also, if he still remains stubborn about the ICS: use this argument: in TESB, an ISD casually vapes asteroids with its primary weapons. In the TNG episode Genesis, even upgraded photon torpedoes merely shattered smaller asteroids. So, we know that an ISD has superior weapons to a Galaxy-class. Now, the Enterprise has been crippled by the detonation of just one of its torpedoes, and now that we know that turbolasers are superior to photon torpedoes an ISD shouldn't have much trouble with a Galaxy-class. So you see, the ICS isn't necessary to prove SW weapons superiority.

[hunter5]

Oh I have been using that he dismisses it because the asteroids in TESB are "pebbles"

[hunter5]

I finally used the borg cutting laser to which he replied with the shields were down due to the borg shield draining tractor beam

[hunter5]

Has he cited the other non-Borg cases where lasers are apprarently a threat? Or maybe they'll just counter by staying that the Enterprise's shields were screwed up by some local technobabbleonic particle...

I am not familiar with all the episodes were lasers are a threat.

[Srelex]

I am not familiar with all the episodes were lasers are a threat.

According to the Imperial Wiki, it's the episodes "The Last Outpost", "Loud as a Whisper", "Suddenly Human", "Conundrum".

[hunter5]

Thanks but I need a short break. Time to get the oil changed in the old car and get that blasted North Carolina inspection.

[Batman]

He is now trying to get something called the ICC declared non canon by saying since it uses the word lasers to describe x wing weapons and since they don't act like lasers in the movies the ICC isn't canon there for the 200 gigaton firepower isn't valid

Nice double standard there I thought TLs got treated as lasers because of the name despite behaving in no way shape or form like lasers? Or are they ditching the movies too?

Also, if he still remains stubborn about the ICS: use this argument: in TESB, an ISD casually vapes asteroids with its primary weapons.

Um no it doesn't. It does so with invisibly tiny tertiary guns.

[hunter5]

He is now trying to get something called the ICC declared non canon by saying since it uses the word lasers to describe x wing weapons and since they don't act like lasers in the movies the ICC isn't canon there for the 200 gigaton firepower isn't valid

Nice double standard there I thought TLs got treated as lasers because of the name despite behaving in no way shape or form like lasers? Or are they ditching the movies too?

No he is just trying to get the ICS thrown out by using the no laser argument against us.

[Batman]

I got that, thanks.Notice the smiley at the end of my post.

[hunter5]

Ah no actually i missed that

[Formless]

Nice double standard there I thought TLs got treated as lasers because of the name despite behaving in no way shape or form like lasers? Or are they ditching the movies too?

No he is just trying to get the ICS thrown out by using the no laser argument against us.

So is the Enterprise immune to Proton Torpedoes? Missiles? Ion cannons? Seismic charges? Boarding crews? Ramming tactics?

Of course not, because there is no such thing as no limits "immunity." Use that against them if they keep trying to pull that crap. Especially the point about Ion Cannons and boarding crews; when your control surfaces have all been fried * , your warp core disabled, and stormtroopers armed with heavy blasters and nerve gas are breaching your hull, I'm sure the awesomeness of your ship's shields will be the last thing on your mind as you try and survive the inevitable shooting gallery. It'll be just like the Tantive V over Tatooine.

* I wonder what would happen when Trek's patented Exploding ConsolesTM meet the electrifying effects of Ion cannons...

[Batman]

That would work splendidly against sensible people. If he were DEALING with sensible people it also wouldn't be necessary to begin with.

[Formless]

Well, it does have a certain novelty, as I don't think many people (including many people who argue in favor of Star Wars!) often consider that the Empire has plenty of other ship-to-ship weapons besides just turbolasers which would come into play in a VS matchup with Trek (or anyone else for that matter) * . The No Lasers argument particularly seems like an attempt to capitalize on this tendency to simplify things. This has the advantage of short circuiting their assumptions, and plays to Star Wars' often overlooked strengths. Many arguments from Trek's side try and wow people with the novelty and coolness of Trek's technology (regardless of whether this is warranted or relevant) (for example, arguments about Trek's transporters) and it does seem to work on the gullible; Ion Cannons have that "Wow, nifty!" factor, AND they are relevant to the discussion. Same with boarding, since it conjures the awesome imagery of ANH and uses that to your psychological advantage.

* Oh, I forgot one in my list above: tractor beams and gravity well projectors. That's right, there is no escape, Captain Picard.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Man this guy's stubborn, he's pulling so many strawmen it's giving me a headache. From what I gather, he's trying to get the ICS thrown out based on the fact that the Holocron is not controlled by Lucas himself, or something like that

And as for weapon ranges, I've pointed out to him that in ST fleet combat, ranges of the kind he's claiming in isolated incidents are never seen on screen, is there something I'm missing?

[Srelex]

Man this guy's stubborn, he's pulling so many strawmen it's giving me a headache. From what I gather, he's trying to get the ICS thrown out based on the fact that the Holocron is not controlled by Lucas himself, or something like that

And as for weapon ranges, I've pointed out to him that in ST fleet combat, ranges of the kind he's claiming in isolated incidents are never seen on screen, is there something I'm missing?

Well, in the TOS long-range battles were certainly implied, I believe, but this was mostly down to SFX limitations. By the time TNG comes about, we get starships practically poking up each other's asses. You should point out that in ROTJ, 'point blank range' is considered dozens of kilometers at best.

[hunter5]

You said the storm troopers were winning until their own technology was taken and used against them. I assume your post was to make them sound good right? Instead you just exposed another weakness of theirs. At least star trek has command codes that allow them to disable technology when it falls into the hands of an enemy.

This is perhaps the dumbest argument I have ever heard in my life.