A way ST forces could win a battle with the Empire

[Xess]

We already know the Feds use antimatter weapons, that's not in question.

In this case the "weapon" is using the deflector dish to emit an anti-proton "pulse". It is in fact a ray and is being used to disable the holograms on a Hirogen ship. When the beam strikes the unshielded hill the Hirogen shape takes no visible external damage, it does rock and spark the insides like all trek weapons do however. It may have been AM but the ammount was very small.

EDIT: More to the point they specifically call it an anti-proton pulse. If disruptors really were anti-proton weapons wouldn't they have called it a disruptor pulse as it would the same damn thing?

[Ted C]

2. Romulan disruptors are some strange exotic weapon never explained in any canon episodes that somehow through some further never explained process leave behind a/m based off of no canon evidence and is, in short, a weapon process invented by some fans on a vs website.

Since Star Trek ray guns have a long history of being exotic weapons with weird effects, #2 is definitely the go-to choice. Where have you been all these years?

That is true but is there any canon event of these exotic disruptor weapons leaving as a biproduct anti-protons? If there is, then I will concede the point. If there isn't where is the justification for inventing a process of a weapon on these forums?

Actually, the quote you're working from is the only time anti-protons have ever been mentioned in connection with disruptors in any way. We've seen Romulan disruptors fired many times at many different things, and they don't act like streams of anti-matter. They act like phasers of a different color, causing wounds or structural damage or making people disappear.

It's the disappearing thing that requires an exotic behavior explanation, since none of these weapons produce the vapor explosions that would result from actual vaporization. To produce the effects that we see, all of these weapons have to induce some kind of chain reaction that causes solid matter to rapidly decay into harmless particles and a bit of light. Presumably the reaction that occurs when Romulan disruptors destroy something results in some residual anti-protons, which will linger in space where there's nothing to annihilate them. This makes a hell of a lot more sense in a Star Trek context than assuming they're anti-matter beams when no disruptor has EVER been described as an anti-matter beam and the effects they have are not consistent with anti-matter beams. Disruptors tear things apart; they don't annihilate things.

And honestly, its easy for me to concede the point if you have evidence, because with additional canon evidence i found, I don't even need disruptors to be a/m for my assertion in this thread.

Then I'd drop it, because there is no support for that claim.

So again, please show canon evidence that disruptors create a/m as a biproduct.

PS: The disruptor was a pulse not a ray, please see video.

That's irrelevant, because we've seen over and over that disruptors of any size can produce beams or pulses at the whim of the user (or the VFX department).

[Jm81]

*sigh*

This is evidence that the failure of the shields, the A-wing attack, and the officer announcing said failure all happened very close together. IT IS NOT EVIDENCE THAT THE A-WING ATTACK CAUSED THE SHIELD FAILURE.

Seriously, you reading comprehension is terrible. You write in big letters that the a-wings didn't caused the shield to fail when the FIRST line in my quote is this:

I never asserted that the A-wings took the shields down...

Secondly,...

...all happened very close together...

I know it is very convenient for you to try to muddy the waters like this because the scene is very damaging to your point, but lets get something straight. The scene doesn't show things happened all at once. It shows a concise order of events as the writers intended us to see.

1. Shields are up.
2. A-wings score hits showing they had to pass through the shields
3. Shields fall right after due to whatever took them down as it is not important to my assertion


And so once again...

What I said was we know from the canon event that the A-wings scored physical damage on the SSD and were able to fly to the location and do said damage BEFORE the SSD lost its shields! Thus, to do this they had to pass through the shielding. This contradicts the RoJ novel thus it is trumped by the movie.

[Jm81]

We already know the Feds use antimatter weapons, that's not in question.

In this case the "weapon" is using the deflector dish to emit an anti-proton "pulse". It is in fact a ray and is being used to disable the holograms on a Hirogen ship. When the beam strikes the unshielded hill the Hirogen shape takes no visible external damage, it does rock and spark the insides like all trek weapons do however. It may have been AM but the ammount was very small.

EDIT: More to the point they specifically call it an anti-proton pulse. If disruptors really were anti-proton weapons wouldn't they have called it a disruptor pulse as it would the same damn thing?

Assuming scifi writers choose to be consistent and respect the lore with a working knowledge of it yes... But don't hold your breath on that one!

[Jm81]

So again, please show canon evidence that disruptors create a/m as a biproduct.

PS: The disruptor was a pulse not a ray, please see video.

That's irrelevant, because we've seen over and over that disruptors of any size can produce beams or pulses at the whim of the user (or the VFX department).

On the contrary its very relevant. Because either the type of disruptor the romulans used that created effects consistent with m/am effects either is anti-protons or creates them as a bi-product. And this assertion of the creation of a/m as a bi-product by you and others is in effect creating new technology and claiming that the ST powers have access to it. And that requires evidence as this show isn't your intellectual property.

And yes I do acknowledge that VFX can be inconsistent with respect to lore and continuity.

[Jm81]

...

I am not sure what else you are bringing to this conversation as your point that the ship was indeed in combat for a long time prior. I asked for evidence and you provided. Thus, I concede that the ship was in combat prior and I thank you for being forth coming with your evidence.

I wish others would do the same...


With that said other canon evidence I posted still stands showing SW shields can be passed through by small craft.

[Captain Seafort]

1. Shields are up.
2. A-wings score hits showing they had to pass through the shields
3. Shields fall right after due to whatever took them down as it is not important to my assertion.

Wrong. The actual chain of events, taking all canon into account rather than ignoring the bits you don't like is:

1) Shields are up
2) Ackbar orders all fire concentrated on the Ex.
3) A-wings attack the dome, demonstrating that the shields are down as we know they have to be disabled for fighters to stand a chance
4) Bridge officer confirms that the shields are down, indicating that it's happened very recently.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

...

I am not sure what else you are bringing to this conversation as your point that the ship was indeed in combat for a long time prior. I asked for evidence and you provided. Thus, I concede that the ship was in combat prior and I thank you for being forth coming with your evidence.

I wish others would do the same...


With that said other canon evidence I posted still stands showing SW shields can be passed through by small craft.

My point is that because the Invisible Hand was in combat for a long time prior, it had been thoroughly shot up by republic warships, so the shields would have been seriously weakened before Anakin and Obi-wan even arrived, and it was this damage that allowed Anakin to take out the hangar bay shield to begin with. The subsequent exchange with the Guarlara supports this.

[Jm81]

1. Shields are up.
2. A-wings score hits showing they had to pass through the shields
3. Shields fall right after due to whatever took them down as it is not important to my assertion.

Wrong. The actual chain of events, taking all canon into account rather than ignoring the bits you don't like is:

1) Shields are up
2) Ackbar orders all fire concentrated on the Ex.
3) A-wings attack the dome, demonstrating that the shields are down as we know they have to be disabled for fighters to stand a chance
4) Bridge officer confirms that the shields are down, indicating that it's happened very recently.

Again nice try, but no.

1. Correct
2. Correct
3. Correct, A-wings fire on dome causing physical damage while shields are UP
4. Incorrect, bridge officer staring at the screen reports shields down as soon as they are down

I know, the scene totally befuddles your point and contradicts your RoJ novel. I get it for that reason you really REALLY want it not to be a sequence of events in chronological order. But time stamps don't lie, events did transpire as we actually see them and the times are noted.

[Jm81]

My point is that because the Invisible Hand was in combat for a long time prior, it had been thoroughly shot up by republic warships, so the shields would have been seriously weakened before Anakin and Obi-wan even arrived, and it was this damage that allowed Anakin to take out the hangar bay shield to begin with. The subsequent exchange with the Guarlara supports this.

Yes I know, it takes the entire example into the land of being unclear and is not being used by me as a citation any longer.

Now the RoJ scene as well as the Tri-droid scene, those are much stronger examples.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

We already know the Feds use antimatter weapons, that's not in question.

In this case the "weapon" is using the deflector dish to emit an anti-proton "pulse". It is in fact a ray and is being used to disable the holograms on a Hirogen ship. When the beam strikes the unshielded hill the Hirogen shape takes no visible external damage, it does rock and spark the insides like all trek weapons do however. It may have been AM but the ammount was very small.

EDIT: More to the point they specifically call it an anti-proton pulse. If disruptors really were anti-proton weapons wouldn't they have called it a disruptor pulse as it would the same damn thing?

Actually it was anti-photon, not proton- whatever that is

[DieselJester]

1. Shields are up.
2. A-wings score hits showing they had to pass through the shields
3. Shields fall right after due to whatever took them down as it is not important to my assertion.

Wrong. The actual chain of events, taking all canon into account rather than ignoring the bits you don't like is:

1) Shields are up
2) Ackbar orders all fire concentrated on the Ex.
3) A-wings attack the dome, demonstrating that the shields are down as we know they have to be disabled for fighters to stand a chance
4) Bridge officer confirms that the shields are down, indicating that it's happened very recently.

Again nice try, but no.

1. Correct
2. Correct
3. Correct, A-wings fire on dome causing physical damage while shields are UP
4. Incorrect, bridge officer staring at the screen reports shields down as soon as they are down

I know, the scene totally befuddles your point and contradicts your RoJ novel. I get it for that reason you really REALLY want it not to be a sequence of events in chronological order. But time stamps don't lie, events did transpire as we actually see them and the times are noted.

I've been lurking on this one for awhile and even visited the other forums to see their take on it. So if I may be a impartial judge here (as I enjoy watching both Star Wars and Star Trek)...

Using a meshed version of the ROTJ/Battle Of Endor video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZDa09gRDq8

Chain of Events that are being discussed here:
1: Ackbar Orders Concentrated Fire on the Executor ("That Super Star Destroyer").
2: We see 2 A-Wings attack and destroy a shield dome.
3: Bridge Officer Reports "We've lost our Bridge Deflector Shields".
4: Admiral Piett orders concentrated fire forward.
5: Damaged A-Wing impacts Bridge of the Executor.

From this, I believe that we can infer that the Bridge Deflector Shields were in fact up at the time of Ackbar's orders and that the concentrated/coordinated attack of 2 A-Wings managed to bring that section of the Executor's shields down, allowing for a damaged A-Wing to ram the bridge.

However, I do not believe that this is enough for a case for Star Trek that they can get a small, slow moving, object of any kind through shields generated in Star Wars. Looking at other canonical evidence in SW: ANH, TESB, and ROTJ, I do not see how Star Trek spaceships would be able to pull this off.

[Xess]

We already know the Feds use antimatter weapons, that's not in question.

In this case the "weapon" is using the deflector dish to emit an anti-proton "pulse". It is in fact a ray and is being used to disable the holograms on a Hirogen ship. When the beam strikes the unshielded hill the Hirogen shape takes no visible external damage, it does rock and spark the insides like all trek weapons do however. It may have been AM but the ammount was very small.

EDIT: More to the point they specifically call it an anti-proton pulse. If disruptors really were anti-proton weapons wouldn't they have called it a disruptor pulse as it would the same damn thing?

Actually it was anti-photon, not proton- whatever that is

Since photons are their own anti-particle that means that they used a crappy laser to try and shut down the holograms.

[Jm81]

EDIT: More to the point they specifically call it an anti-proton pulse. If disruptors really were anti-proton weapons wouldn't they have called it a disruptor pulse as it would the same damn thing?
Actually it was anti-photon, not proton- whatever that is

Since photons are their own anti-particle that means that they used a crappy laser to try and shut down the holograms.

Some sort of anti-energy particle altho energy is both a particle and wave function oh geez now i gave myself a headache...

[Xess]

Again nice try, but no.

1. Correct
2. Correct
3. Correct, A-wings fire on dome causing physical damage while shields are UP
4. Incorrect, bridge officer staring at the screen reports shields down as soon as they are down

I know, the scene totally befuddles your point and contradicts your RoJ novel. I get it for that reason you really REALLY want it not to be a sequence of events in chronological order. But time stamps don't lie, events did transpire as we actually see them and the times are noted.

Another way it works is, Ackbar orders fire on the Executor, the main shields go down but the bridge shields stay up and the officer's report is unseen, A-Wings knock out bridge shields, officer reports shields are down referring to the bridge shields.

This fits the movie, the RotJ movie and the Incredible Locations book that mentions that the A-Wings knocked out the bridge shield generators.

Some sort of anti-energy particle altho energy is both a particle and wave function oh geez now i gave myself a headache...

What it is, is technobabble bullshit.

[Jm81]

...

...

Both of you have stated repeatedly that ST forces have access to A/M weapons, although I haven't heard your thoughts on my assertion of the permeability of SW under certain circumstances with the evidence I have provided from Brian's video case studies.

[Jm81]

Some sort of anti-energy particle altho energy is both a particle and wave function oh geez now i gave myself a headache...

What it is, is technobabble bullshit.

Yeah well that's 90% of ST. SW at least had the foresight to steer clear of delving too much into technology technobabble.

[Xess]

...

...

Both of you have stated repeatedly that ST forces have access to A/M weapons, although I haven't heard your thoughts on my assertion of the permeability of SW under certain circumstances with the evidence I have provided from Brian's video case studies.

I don't see why Star Wars shields being permeable at low speeds is a problem. The only thing I object to is your disruptors are anti-matter beams assertion.

[Captain Seafort]

A-wings fire on dome causing physical damage while shields are UP

Prove it.

events did transpire as we actually see them and the times are noted.

I'm not disputing that - the A-wings took advantage of the disabled shields to attack and destroy the dome, and a couple of seconds thereafter an Ex bridge officer reported the loss of shields. What I object to is you ignoring canon evidence in the shape of Ackbar's statement, and therefore assuming without evidence that the attack occurred before the shields failed.

[Jm81]

Prove it.

I did.
A-wing fire took place at a time stamp of 5:48 and the officer reported shields dropping after that at 5:55. You seem to forget, everything in a movie was put in purposefully. The director chose to tell the audience that the shields drop AFTER the A-wings damaged the ship because one event took place AFTER the other!

[Captain Seafort]

I did.

No, you didn't - you demonstrated that the report that the shields were down came after the attack. You provided no evidence whatsoever of the time between the shields failing and the report being delivered. Until such evidence is provided, the direct contradiction required for the film to override the novel does not exist. For the purposes of such a discussion under SoD, this isn't a film we're talking about - it's documentary footage.

[Jm81]

I did.

No, you didn't - you demonstrated that the report that the shields were down came after the attack. You provided no evidence whatsoever of the time between the shields failing and the report being delivered. Until such evidence is provided, the direct contradiction required for the film to override the novel does not exist. For the purposes of such a discussion under SoD, this isn't a film we're talking about - it's documentary footage.

You are taking the path of absurdity. You want to disqualify someone saying shields are down meaning down at this moment because the writer didn't have the actor say "shields are down NOW!!". Did the actor say our shields WERE down? Did we hear our shields are STILL down? Did anything in the actors line indicate past tense? NO! ALL present tense wording used.

http://www.movie2k.to/Star-Wars-Episode ... 93268.html
Time stamp: 1:54:06-1:54:12
The actor said and I quote:
Pit Officer: "Sir! We have lost our bridge deflector shields!"
Commander: "Intensify forward batteries, I don't want anything to get through."

His face was glued to the screen and he spun around quickly, as a directors way of telling the audience this is important time critical need to know info, and reported it. The moment this took place the officer reported it. And you will also notice that as soon as the dome exploded we went to the bridge scene and we saw the shaking from an explosion. That was the directors way of connecting the two scenes with causality and temporal reference.

You are so obviously grasping for straws here.

[Batman]

I did.

No, you didn't - you demonstrated that the report that the shields were down came after the attack. You provided no evidence whatsoever of the time between the shields failing and the report being delivered. Until such evidence is provided, the direct contradiction required for the film to override the novel does not exist. For the purposes of such a discussion under SoD, this isn't a film we're talking about - it's documentary footage.

You are taking the path of absurdity. You want to disqualify someone saying shields are down meaning down at this moment because the writer didn't have the actor say "shields are down NOW!!".

Which he didn't, and which wouldn't make an ounce of difference if he did, as the shields are obviously down by that time. That does not mean they failed right that moment..

Did the actor say our shields WERE down?

That would actually indicate that their shields are back up again, that he's talking about an attack sometime in the past or a combination thereof.

Did we hear our shields are STILL down?

'Damn. It's been all of 7 seconds and our shields are still down.'

Did anything in the actors line indicate past tense? NO! ALL present tense wording used.

Which means that...the shields are currently down and strongly indicates they haven't been for particularly long, nothing more.

http://www.movie2k.to/Star-Wars-Episode ... 93268.html
Time stamp: 1:54:06-1:54:12
The actor said and I quote:
Pit Officer: "Sir! We have lost our bridge deflector shields!"
Commander: "Intensify forward batteries, I don't want anything to get through."
His face was glued to the screen and he spun around quickly, as a directors way of telling the audience this is important time critical need to know info, and reported it

I couldn't possibly care less what the director wanted to tell me.

The moment this took place the officer reported it.

You don't know that. All you know is the moment he reported it.

And you will also notice that as soon as the dome exploded we went to the bridge scene and we saw the shaking from an explosion. That was the directors way of connecting the two scenes with causality and temporal reference.

Between the dome going kablooie and the bridge shaking, nothing more. The time of shield failure doesn't figure into it, any more than director's intent.

You are so obviously grasping for straws here.

Somebody is, definitely

[Jm81]

Which he didn't, and which wouldn't make an ounce of difference if he did, as the shields are obviously down by that time...

Obviously not being the officer very promptly tells us when they go down. They aren't using smoke signals here, they know these things in real time, and George Lucas was nice enough to put it in the movie despite all your squirming and spinning what is clearly before your eyes.

Nice try.

Which means that...the shields are currently down and strongly indicates they haven't been for particularly long, nothing more.

No the actor uses the present tense thus strongly indicates that the shields just dropped as he was glued the to monitor reporting what he saw as it was displayed. And now you and captain seafort wants all of us to think that somehow the information was not in real time. I guess their computers have lag or something! Laughable...

I couldn't possibly care less what the director wanted to tell me.

You heard it here boys and girls, Batman now has chosen to reject the canon and care less about the owner of the intellectual property because it doesn't go along with how he wants things to be!

You don't know that. All you know is the moment he reported it.

This is a BATTLE. It is reasonable to say that people report HUGE EVENTS LIKE YOUR FREAKING SHIELDS DROPPING right when they happen!!!! George Lucas chose to show the A-wings damaging the domes and the shields dropping in the order it did because that was the sequence of events that took place. I'm sorry that the story doesn't fit your tale and now you are trying to rewrite HIS canon movie.

[Batman]

Which he didn't, and which wouldn't make an ounce of difference if he did, as the shields are obviously down by that time...

Obviously not being the officer very promptly tells us when they go down.

BZZT. WRONG. The officer tells us they are down. Onus on that being the moment they actually went down is on you to prove.

They aren't using smoke signals here, they know these things in real time, and George Lucas was nice enough to put it in the movie despite all your squirming and spinning what is clearly before your eyes.

What is clearly before my eyes is a guy saying that the shields are down in a situation where it's patently obvious that the shields are down.
This translating into the shields failing the moment he said they did so is on you, fuckface.

Which means that...the shields are currently down and strongly indicates they haven't been for particularly long, nothing more.

No the actor uses the present tense thus strongly indicates that the shields just dropped as he was glued the to monitor reporting what he saw as it was displayed. And now you and captain seafort wants all of us to think that somehow the information was not in real time. I guess their computers have lag or something! Laughable...

I take it, then, that you can prove the shields were still up when the A-Wings attacked the globe thingies? As in canon sources explicitly saying so?

I couldn't possibly care less what the director wanted to tell me.

You heard it here boys and girls, Batman now has chosen to reject the canon and care less about the owner of the intellectual property because it doesn't go along with how he wants things to be!

Yup. You DON'T know what canon means WRT Star Wars.

You don't know that. All you know is the moment he reported it.

This is a BATTLE. It is reasonable to say that people report HUGE EVENTS LIKE YOUR FREAKING SHIELDS DROPPING right when they happen!!!!

Prove that happened.

George Lucas chose to show the A-wings damaging the domes and the shields dropping in the order it did because that was the sequence of events that took place. I'm sorry that the story doesn't fit your tale and now you are trying to rewrite HIS canon movie.

The sequence of events is a) the A-Wings kablooing the Domes and b) somebody their bridge deflector shields are down. Um-yeah. A couple of A-wings just trashed your globe thingy so of course the bridge deflectors were down. SHOW ME ONE CANON PIECE OF EVIDENCE OF THE BRIDGE DEFLECTORS BEING UP DURING THE A-WING ATTACK.