DWvsATJ commentary thread.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

The length of the time for my reply is summed up thusly: "It take longer to come up with the truth than to spout a lie."

Besides, I had the SAT to study for. Bite me, Wong Harem Members. I'm here to bitch slap your leader with a dose of reason.

Ah, it took you many days to find a spare half-hour, rather than being shamed into finally responding by everyones' resounding mockery. Yeah, right.

The mockery of fools no longer bothers me.

In other words, you couldn't spare half an hour for almost 2 weeks. Yeah right.

That would only be true if the canon films explicitly said that they use no neutronium at all in their hulls. You obviously don't know what the word "override" means. I suggest an investment in a basic dictionary.

BTW, it is a strawman distortion to claim that I think they're using "neutronium hulls", which implies that neutronium constitutes the majority substance. And on top of that, neutronium-impregnated hull material comes from a canon source anyway (the ICS books have been declared canon)

A "canon" source which is regarded only as canon as the EU continuity (that is, not at all).

Is distorting quotes a hobby of yours?

Besides that, the ICS author made "educated guesses" towards the specs of the ships and vehicles he drew, none of which was seen in the films (which are maintained as the "primary canon"). How eagerly you accept outrageous figures if it helps your side in any way. Jackal.

Oops, you once again forgot that these "educated guesses" were approved by Lucasfilm, and Dr. Saxton actually went to Skywalker Ranch and saw some of the original blueprints, drawings and computer animatics.

You're still not getting it, are you? This is a simple matter of geometry; with a sufficiently thin rod, it doesn't matter how strong it is; it will still bend. Do you honestly need this explained to you?

According to http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=staff ) is that it is a stout object,even for the walking version . . . a slender walking-stick would be a cane, not a staff. Ie, something that's not supposed to be easily breakable and is NOT thin. And yet, a pissed-off woman bent it. Ouch, that would be such a chore.

Strange. It says
A stick or cane carried as an aid in walking or climbing.
A stout stick used as a weapon; a cudgel.

And it was neither actually, it was a fucking TORCH!

Who cares? The point is that on metallic targets, phasers have never demonstrated serious power, while blasters can tear through starship bulkheads and walls.

Oh yes, concrete walls and bulkheads made out of a material an emotional woman can bend. I'm shaking. What about Saavik's obliteration of a metallic pot in ST:VI?

Wow, a thin aluminum pot. Impressive.

While not a particulary impressive display of power, it removes your false assumption about the idea that phasers cannot pierce metallic objects.

Strawman.

Keep in mind the fact that, in "The Arsenal of Freedom", Tasha notes that whatever melted the tritanium was "beyond our technology".

Stop trying to rebute yourself. It's silly.

Starfleet hulls and bulkheads are built of tritanium ("The Managerie" [TOS], "Threshold" [VGR]), an "exotic metallic alloy". An alloy that, combined with the ever popular duranium, would have to be pretty damn tough to take the kind of strains that would be found at FTL speeds. A single dust partical at 99.9999% of c alone has it's mass increased (thanks to Relativity) by roughly 66,000 times. Even with shields and deflectors, the hull materials have to be tough too in such an enviroment. It does not seem illogical to assume that the bulkhead materials of a starship are strong enough to absorb phaser blasts without any real trouble. In "Where Silence Has Lease (TNG)", Riker is scanning the walls of the duplicate USS Yamato when he comments "They're not tritanium". This means that tritanium IS in the bulkheads, so no argument for them being some other material cannot be made.

Hmm...evil superfast dust particles. If only they had a way to stop that. Oh wait, they do. The Navigational deflector. Besides, can you describe what a FTL and STL object collision would be?

However, in "Insurrection Alpha (VGR)", we did indeed see a door being blasted apart by Maquis rebel phasers (sure, it was a holographic simulation, but it was written by Tuvok, so it seems logical that he'd have been as accurate with the situation as possible). The doors might have been made of replicated wood for all we know, but it seems more likely they were simply made of thinner duranium, or a less dense alloy. In any event, it destroys your remark about phasers not being able to blow apart doors or other obstructions if put to the test.

Not only, do you admit this was nothing but a hologram, but there is no "Insurection Alpha" episode, and Federation woosh doors are defeated by thrown humans and evil Klingon-Squid monsters' headbutts.

Show me evidence of all this water vapour, which would cause severe burn injuries to everyone near the victim. Oh wait, you can't do that, can you?

And neither can you.

Exactly. It's not vaporization.

However, considering that they HAVE mentioned on-air vaporizations with phasers, and the fact we've seen people "vanish" thanks to energy weapons, it seemed logical to assume that they were "vaporized". Perhaps so quickly that the vapor was reduced to lone particles-It's difficult to speculate on this.

In other words, you admit it doesn't even resemble normal vaporization, and you instead rely on dialogue and the fact that they vanish, and some crazy "long particle" theory you haven't elaborated on.

Wrong again. I strongly suggest you look up the definition of "chain reaction". A conventional laser will not continue to heat a target after it's been shut off, whereas a chain reaction will.

Perhaps, but the effects of an energy weapon are never "instantaneous". Ergo, it is the reaction between the energy of the blast and the matter of the target.

Which isn't a chain reaction.

And yes, phaser do use nadion beams to disassemble molecules on the sub-atomic level-It still requires a great deal of energy to actually DO anything of the sort we've seen phasers do. Just because they're "purely" chain reaction weapons (as you implied) does not make them weak-It in fact makes them more powerful, if they can cause the structure of an object to simply fall apart.

Perhaps you could try to prove this?

Thanks, I already did ("Insurrection Alpha" VGR). BTW, that was with one shot to the door that cause it to blow apart, given by the fact that there was only one phaser leveled toward the door after the fact.

You seem to think tearing gashes in bulkheads=destroying weak woosh door.

The way you put it, yes. However, the majority of the firefights we've seen involved wanting to simply stun or kill opponents, not vaporize them (which requires more power). Would YOU want to waste your weapon on burning your way through everything, at full power, just so you'd be out of juice before reaching your primary objective?

You fucking idiot, you're not "wasting" energy to take out an enemy's cover, you're gaining a huge tactical advantage.

Not even a Stormtrooper could be that dense. You use the minimum needed juice to take out an opponent: THat's the smart way to have maximum effectiveness.

You can't take out an opponent when he's hiding behind a crate.

And the fact we've never seen Stormtroopers try to blow through obstacles with sheer full powered-weapons blasts doesn't even cross your mind, right? And blowing open a door on the DS1 doesn't count: The door remained intact.

Let's see:

• The destruction of the airlock door on the Tantive 4.
• Long gashes in bulkheads.
• Taking down a giant standcrawler.
• Blowing up the door on the DS1, which despite your insane claims, was not intact.

Gee Wong, I wonder: If they "vanished" when they were shot, where did they go? The land of pink fuzzy distortions? Phasers have been said to be able to "vaporize" things. The fact they've made things vanish kind of supports the fact that they vaporized them. The mechanics of the vaporization process, we can only guess at, but it seems logical to assume if they "vanished" and ceased to be cohesive, solid matter, they were vaporized.

Blah blah blah, you still can't realize if it sounds like a cow, smells like a chicken and looks like a goose, it's definitely not a duck.

ICBM silos are reinforced with steel, concrete, and various other materials to make them stronger and survive the launch of the missile they hold. In the Star Wars Universe, wherein they use repulsorlifts (which, I might add, have not shown they produce ANY backwash or exhaust that could damage nearby structures or affect anyone nearby), there is no real need to reinforce docking ports from hot thruster exhaust.

Then why do the engines of the Falcon turn on while lifting up? No backwash? Please.

Therefore, no need for exotic materials to keep the structure together. It's little more than DIRT and cement. Your statement not only holds no merit; it's completely idiotic. Try something else.

Still trying to claim it's dirt? Laughable.

Once again, you are trying to detract from the main issue.

So you can't comprehend analogies.

Blasters have NEVER shown the ability to vaporize a person, or anything else of consequence, to be completely honest. They have also never demonstrated greater power than a phaser, no matter the methods of the weapons in doing what they're supposed to do. Best they have shown themselves capable of are blowing up windows (gee, glass: I'm shaking), cement, setting fire to clothing, and peircing one-inch thick armor. Armor that has not demonstrated any particular resilience to ANYTHING.

Blah blah blah, more lies.

If by the assumption that phasers are more powerful than blasters (which they have shown themselves to be), Stormie's not going to stand a chance.

Bullshit. SW has machine gun, armor support, and artillery. Federation redshirts will be lucky to get into rifle range.

Sue me.

Couldn't you at least say "Oops, I was wrong, sorry?" Guess not.

Again, sue me. When something's called a laser, it seems logical to assume it's based upon the modern-day laser

Have you bothered to do ANY research into this?

And don't try your "ICBM silo" stunt again: Semantics get you nothing but time.

I guess that anology went over your head too.

Gee, I've just presented surefire evidence that phasers can throw around more power than blasters, and all you can come up with is an insult to my intelligence. Whose pretending?

No-Though my argument should include that, since we've never seen Stormtroopers or Rebels (or anyone else, for that matter) try what you suggest, this doesn't hold much water.

Show an example of a Stormtrooper hiding behind a crate and being untouchable. Ooops.

Meaning that you're implying Federation troopers are better trained that Imperial ones?

No you fucking idiot, it means Starfleet weapons designers need to be shot.

As for the scopes: Since we only saw them on phaser rifles (which logically should possess more range), it seems likely that auto-aim systems on phaser rifles weren't thought to be needed (or not needed as much). Handheld phasers are the ones that are harder to aim accurately (comparitively speaking), so an auto-aim system would be handy for such a weapon.

In other words, this auto-aim system in so short ranged it's only good on a pistol. Real useful.

Has it occured to you that the auto-aiming system might have an "off" switch? Training, in this case, would be increasing your natural skills so that, in a firefight WITH the auto-aim on, you have even better aim.

Except you haven't proved the existence of an auto-aim system.

Thanks for helping me out.

Let me repeat slowly for you: "O-F-F-S-W-I-T-C-H".

I guess the Federation troops in Nemesis turned it off too.

Let me repeat slowly for you: "P-R-O-V-E I-T.

(sigh) You're pathetic. You draw out the semantics of every argument to try and stall the primary subject. Maybe you should have been a lawyer.

Oh, and BTW: I HAVE explained, thank you.

Funny, I can't find the "this is why phasers don't produce any vapor from the target but still vaporize" can you point it out?

And I have. The day you teach me anything more than how to attempt to insult someone in order to manipulate a debate is the day I check outside for the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse.

BLah blah blah

Once again, trying to draw the debate off subject. Let's try this again:

Starfleet troops, mostly engineers and scientists to determine how to work the Dominion comm system. Add five months of hunger, sleep deprivation, and wracked nerves because of the Houdini mines and Jem'Hadar raids. And they didn't have a machine gun, though it sure as hell would have come in handy.

In other words, WWII German troops with MG42s would have done better.

Phasers are a bit too narrow-field of fire.

Bullets are hardly fragmentation grenades.

Finally, THEY WEREN'T MARINES. They weren't a well-trained security detachment: They were basically thrown together to try and make use of a vital strategic resource. They don't have any bearing on the general compentence or ability of true Federation troops.

Prove it.

Yes, the Dominion troops ran in as a screaming mass. However, there comes a point where there are simply too many troops rushing against your position to stop them. The reasons for this in the above paragraph support my claim.

That the Federation lacks a weapon that's been a vital part of warfare for a hundred years?

And phasers can do both ("Insurrection Alpha (VGR)". And I have already gone over the vaporization aspect. It seems that this is just too complex for YOU to grasp.

No, you mentioned dialogue, the fact that it "vanishes" and lone particles.

Yes, and a little pansy like you could bend the "staff" (which is thick, as I said, and NOT supposed to bend easily!). And I never said impossible: Nice try on the semantics card, but no cigar.

I guess where you come from torches are required by law to be able to withstand being smashed up and down?

No, I've emulated his technique of sticking to the facts. YOU are the one who dodges the scientific issues and tries to lead the debate toward something totally unrelated to the subject at hand. It is YOUR lying, bullying, and falsification that has led to this debate.


And who is the one around here insulting your opponent's intelligence and trying to discredit them with language dripping "superiority complex", while dodging the important issues? You aim for nothing but your own selfish motives, and have brainwashed your brood to follow the same line without any logic. You disgust me.

The feelings mutual.

[Ted C]

AJT obviously doesn't know his sources very well. There is no episode named "Insurrection Alpha"; the events he describes occur in "Worst Case Scenario".

Show me evidence of all this water vapour, which would cause severe burn injuries to everyone near the victim. Oh wait, you can't do that, can you?

And neither can you.

The stupidity of this response is simply amazing. Can't he comprehend that Mike has no need or desire to show the presence of water vapor in the area where a phaser has just "vaporized" someone?

Gee Wong, I wonder: If they "vanished" when they were shot, where did they go? The land of pink fuzzy distortions? Phasers have been said to be able to "vaporize" things. The fact they've made things vanish kind of supports the fact that they vaporized them. The mechanics of the vaporization process, we can only guess at, but it seems logical to assume if they "vanished" and ceased to be cohesive, solid matter, they were vaporized.

Obviously AJT hasn't followed the "Read the F*ing Website" rule, or he'd have some hypotheses about how phaser targets might vanish harmlessly instead of exploding into clouds of scalding-hot water vapor. By repeating his "vaporization" mantra, he demonstrates his intimate understanding of DarkStar's "Wall of Ignorance" debate tactic.

Blasters have NEVER shown the ability to vaporize a person, or anything else of consequence, to be completely honest.

Vaporizing people or objects isn't a design requirement for phasers. Killing people and destroying objects are their only needs, and they have demonstrated the ability to do both quite effectively.

They have also never demonstrated greater power than a phaser, no matter the methods of the weapons in doing what they're supposed to do.

On the contrary, phasers have never demonstrated a great deal of power, particularly at "combat" settings. Shots from Han's blaster that took chunks out of concrete walls would easily destroy the kinds of objects that people typically use as effective cover from phaser fire in Star Trek.

[CmdrWilkens]

I suddenly found something very amusing. I was at Waldenbooks today and for the hell of it picked up Al Franken's "Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them: A Fair and Balanced Look at the Right."

What was amusing is the chapter attacking Ann Coulter. He took one of her assertions (that the New York Times had neglected Dale Earnhardt's death for some mysterious liberal reason) and simply stuck a pig ol' picture of the front page of the Times from the day after Earnhardt's death. It just reminded me so much of the Dirt/Concrete rebuttal.

[Ted C]

Vaporizing people or objects isn't a design requirement for phasers. Killing people and destroying objects are their only needs, and they have demonstrated the ability to do both quite effectively.

I actually meant to say "Vaporizing people or objects isn't a design requirement for blasters", but the statement applies equally to phasers in a combat situation, really. Phasers, of course, haven't demonstrated the ability to consistently destroy objects typically used for cover in Star Trek (i.e. packing crates, small rock outcroppings, etc.).

I wonder if "rock-blasting" is a special setting of Federation phasers? We've seen them blast rock, but generally not when the phaser is set to "kill" living things. Maybe the rock-blasting setting isn't effective on organic tissue...

[Metrion Cascade]

I wonder if "rock-blasting" is a special setting of Federation phasers? We've seen them blast rock, but generally not when the phaser is set to "kill" living things. Maybe the rock-blasting setting isn't effective on organic tissue...

Maybe phasers somehow vibrate rocks at their resonant frequencies (think Tacoma Narrows bridge)? Or change their temperature too quickly? Like how pyramid robbers would heat the stones with fire and then throw cold vinegar on them, or what has happened to a few of my coffee mugs? Both of these wouldn't necessarily have the same effect on people - I think the resonant frequency for human flesh is in the ELF range, and water has a rather high specific heat capacity. Not to mention that people aren't crystalline. But this would make me expect phasers to be more effective against metals. Not necessarily based on the frequency thing, but metals have lower heat capacities. They change temperature very easily compared to water.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Also, how mighty can phasers be if, as he suggests, blowing through a packing crate seems to be extremely energy consuming?

[Darth Servo]

Maybe phasers somehow vibrate rocks at their resonant frequencies (think Tacoma Narrows bridge)?

I think the resonant frequency for human flesh is in the ELF range,

I see someone has been watching too much Trek and not paying attention to real life. Rocks and flesh don't have resonant frequencies.

Or change their temperature too quickly? Like how pyramid robbers would heat the stones with fire and then throw cold vinegar on them, or what has happened to a few of my coffee mugs?

Where is your evidence that phasers cool things?

[Darth Wong]

Maybe phasers somehow vibrate rocks at their resonant frequencies (think Tacoma Narrows bridge)?

You need a regular geometric structure (like the aforementioned bridge) in order to have a structural resonant frequency.

Or change their temperature too quickly? Like how pyramid robbers would heat the stones with fire and then throw cold vinegar on them, or what has happened to a few of my coffee mugs?

It's simpler to imagine that they just cause a localized explosive expansion effect. Of course, it's always possible that pulse phasers have a fundamentally different mechanism than beam phasers, since we never see the new pulse phasers "vapourize" anyone. People may be reading too much into the fact that they both use the name "phaser".

[Lord Poe]

I wonder if "rock-blasting" is a special setting of Federation phasers? We've seen them blast rock, but generally not when the phaser is set to "kill" living things. Maybe the rock-blasting setting isn't effective on organic tissue...

No reason why it shouldn't be. In "Chain of Command" Picard sets his phaser to setting 16, the highest setting ON the phaser, to blast through a loose jumble of rocks.

[Ted C]

I wonder if "rock-blasting" is a special setting of Federation phasers? We've seen them blast rock, but generally not when the phaser is set to "kill" living things. Maybe the rock-blasting setting isn't effective on organic tissue...

No reason why it shouldn't be. In "Chain of Command" Picard sets his phaser to setting 16, the highest setting ON the phaser, to blast through a loose jumble of rocks.

I suppose not. Now that I think about it, didn't Riker use the same setting to "vaporize" that alien chick in "The Vengeance Factor".

One hypothesis shot down...

[seanrobertson]

I suppose not. Now that I think about it, didn't Riker use the same setting to "vaporize" that alien chick in "The Vengeance Factor".

One hypothesis shot down...

Eh, a good try Ted.

Regarding the setting used to blast Yuta, the script says this:

Yuta reaches for Chorgan again --
And Riker FIRES. Setting eight. Vaporize.
And Yuta's gone.

On the show, though, he did use setting 16. I think Michael makes note of this in the Canon Database.

Shame...Yuta was cute, even if she was over 100 or somethin'

[Metrion Cascade]

Darth Servo wrote:

Where is your evidence that phasers cool things?

I didn't say they do. I offered the suddenly cooled stone and suddenly heated coffee mug as examples of sudden temperature changes (in one direction or the other) causing fractures in crystalline materials. My main problem with the resonant frequency bit is that assuming phasers do operate on some frequency, how is it that every single rock matches that frequency?

Darth Wong wrote:

You need a regular geometric structure (like the aforementioned bridge) in order to have a structural resonant frequency.

Regular geometric structures - like network or planar covalent crystals? By your description, every bridge and building is a regular geometric structure. Molecularly, some materials aren't. Now my question...how consistent is the rock blasting effect? I'm sure I've seen examples of phasers vaporizing tunnels through rock with no explosions. But I'd have to check on that. And why is it that a phaser can "vaporize" or "disintegrate" a person, and none of the floor they're standing on? Do drastic differences in the materials encountered by the chain reaction stop it?

What I'm thinking...do phasers act like DET weapons against certain materials (rock), and not others (non-crystalline organics, like plastic packing crates or people)? This may explain inconsistent rock-blasting. Maybe rock that "disintegrates" has a lot of clay, while rock that explodes has "stronger, harder, more brittle, less ductile, less tough" crystalline ingredients.

Another idea I'm not saying I'm sure about. Maybe phasers have multiple effects, and the substance they hit determines which of those effects causes the destruction. Let's say it's a race between this "chain reaction" and the heat imparted by the phaser. Against rock, it's the heat. The rock can't expand or suddenly change temperature to accomodate it, so it explodes. Against a person, it's the chain reaction, because the heat doesn't change the water's temperature enough (or perhaps quickly enough). Maybe the water doesn't explode into vapor because it's "gone" or "phased out" before it gets the chance.

A word on full impulse, Wong. Again, this is subject to rechecking, but I was under the impression that "full impulse" was .25 the speed of light. That it was a named setting like "ahead full." And that it wasn't the highest possible speed, but that Starfleet's solution to the relativity problem became less effective at higher speeds. Hence .25c was set as full impulse by the fleet's operating regulations to keep them in sync with normal time. Another example is a Navy ship - there's the top rated speed according to the engineer's manual, and there's the actual physical limit in the captain's manual. God help his career if he tests it, though. I think there were some examples of Fed ships deliberately exceeding full impulse during the Dominion war. They could physically do it, but the temporal effects were a nuisance.

[Metrion Cascade]

And if visuals are to automatically be taken at face value, explain how:

In TOS "Friday's Child," there's a space shot where the E-naught's registry number is backwards (mirrored). Maybe so you can read it in your rearview mirror.

In TOS "The Doomsday Machine," stars are visible through the machine's neutronium hull in several shots. Clear neutronium? I like it, but...

In TOS "Day of the Dove," Scotty knocks a Klingon unconscious by hitting him on the elbow. Strong SOB...

In TNG "Encounter at Farpoint," the Captain's Yacht is the source of a phaser beam.

In TNG "The Dauphin," Dr. Pulaski calls security to sickbay and they show up in less than five seconds. Best response time I've ever seen from any security detail ever.

In TNG "The Host," the Trill have builtup foreheads, and their symbionts completely subdue the host personality. This as opposed to Jadzia Dax. A perfect example of the viewer having to extrapolate - say, that there are two humanoid races on the Trill homeworld, both compatible with symbionts. This in the absence of a "we don't like to talk about it" ala Worf's explanation of Klingon magic forehead ridges. Maybe it's the same thing that turned Klingon blood red after the events of ST6?

In TNG "In Theory," a female crewmember walks past LaForge around a corner and a scream is heard. But when LaForge goes to investigate, the woman (who has fallen halfway through the deck) is facing back the way she came. Guess she was able to turn 180 degress as she fell, so we could see how scared she was.

In TNG "Darmok," the forward photon torpedo tube fires a phaser beam.

In TNG "The Game," the forward photon torpedo tube emits a tractor beam.

In TNG "The Next Phase," phased people can run and breathe and hear each other and sit in chairs and...

In "The Final Frontier," the turbolift shaft that Spock, Kirk, and McCoy use to evade Sybok's cronies is much wider than any turbolift, and over 80 decks high according to the numbering, which increases and actually decreases again as they keep flying upward. And yes, they DID go to the center of the Galaxy. Perhaps via a "warp highway" that's no longer there, but they did go. It doesn't matter that it looks wrong, any more than we can ignore Khan based on the fact that the Eugenics Wars haven't happened. It's fiction. Apparently the galactic core simply looks different in Trek.

In "Generations," the Veridian sun dims seconds after Soran's probe is launched. I'll not even comment on how fast the probe must be, but what happened to the speed of light?

In "First Contact," sparks that fly in the deflector dish scene immediately fall back towards the dish. Does it have external gravity that affects sparks but not drones or its own components?

In "Nemesis," the Enterprise is facing east in the shot (Italy is in the background) just before Picard's last conversation with B4. In the next space shot, the Enterprise is facing west. Did they have to turn it around so the repair peeps could reach the other side? Or maybe Italy was upside down and they fixed it.

Not to say that all visuals should be automatically discarded where tech capabilities are concerned, but you'll have to stretch to make sense of some of them, and to reconcile them with each other. I will not assume that the doors Geordi was thrown through are identical to the E-D's sickbay doors are identical to the E-E's sickbay doors are identical to the Scimitar shuttlebay's doors are identical to the Scimitar bridge's doors are identical to every single door on Voyager are identical to... No. Their performance is too inconsistent (thanks, B&B) for even visually identical doors to be structurally identical.

[Lord of the Farce]

What I'm thinking...do phasers act like DET weapons against certain materials (rock), and not others (non-crystalline organics, like plastic packing crates or people)? This may explain inconsistent rock-blasting. Maybe rock that "disintegrates" has a lot of clay, while rock that explodes has "stronger, harder, more brittle, less ductile, less tough" crystalline ingredients.

If (hand) phasers acted like DET, without sufficient protection, then vaporising a tunnel through rock should kill the shooter dead. Large volume of rock heated into vapor state kind of have that effect.

[Lord Poe]

And if visuals are to automatically be taken at face value, explain how:

In TOS "Friday's Child," there's a space shot where the E-naught's registry number is backwards (mirrored). Maybe so you can read it in your rearview mirror.

So? You would still consider it documentary evidence. There's film of the Tuitanic leaving port that ISN'T the Titanic, but its sister ship Britannic. It still doesn't show the Enterprise doing anything but floating in space.

In TOS "The Doomsday Machine," stars are visible through the machine's neutronium hull in several shots. Clear neutronium? I like it, but...

That merely proves that it wasn't solid everywhere, AGAIN proving Spock to be wrong.

http://h4h.com/louis/spock.html

In TOS "Day of the Dove," Scotty knocks a Klingon unconscious by hitting him on the elbow. Strong SOB...

And this disproves visuals over dialogue...how? How do you know the Klingon's arm wasn't broken, and he passed ot from the pain?

In TNG "Encounter at Farpoint," the Captain's Yacht is the source of a phaser beam.

Can you prove the Captain's yacht isn't armed?

In TNG "The Dauphin," Dr. Pulaski calls security to sickbay and they show up in less than five seconds. Best response time I've ever seen from any security detail ever.

How is this idiotic red herring proof again visuals>dialogue?

In TNG "The Host," the Trill have builtup foreheads, and their symbionts completely subdue the host personality. This as opposed to Jadzia Dax.

Did you know Mike Wong has asian shaped eyes, and I don't?

In TNG "In Theory," a female crewmember walks past LaForge around a corner and a scream is heard. But when LaForge goes to investigate, the woman (who has fallen halfway through the deck) is facing back the way she came. Guess she was able to turn 180 degress as she fell, so we could see how scared she was.

Grasp at those straws, Desperate Debbie! This is pathetic...

In TNG "Darmok," the forward photon torpedo tube fires a phaser beam.

Great. So we know the torpedo tubes can do that when not firing torpedoes. Thanks.

In TNG "The Game," the forward photon torpedo tube emits a tractor beam.

In "Q Who", Q says the Borg are neither male or female. Then in Voyager we have 7 of 9. Guess the Q aren't as godlike as we thought...

In TNG "The Next Phase," phased people can run and breathe and hear each other and sit in chairs and...

In ST:TSFS, the Enterprise is said to be 20 years old...

Snip the rest of this idiocy.

[Darth Servo]

Where is your evidence that phasers cool things?

I didn't say they do. I offered the suddenly cooled stone and suddenly heated coffee mug as examples of sudden temperature changes (in one direction or the other) causing fractures in crystalline materials. My main problem with the resonant frequency bit is that assuming phasers do operate on some frequency, how is it that every single rock matches that frequency?

BS. Your examples were of sudden heating AND cooling of the substance in question. The pyramid robbers headed the stones and cooled them. You admitted that yourself. Coffee mugs are filled with hot drinks and often quickly rinsed out with cold water afterwards. You need both to get the rapid expansion and contraction that shatters these things.

[Darth Wong]

Darth Wong wrote:

You need a regular geometric structure (like the aforementioned bridge) in order to have a structural resonant frequency.

Regular geometric structures - like network or planar covalent crystals? By your description, every bridge and building is a regular geometric structure.

Don't be an idiot. Buildings and bridges are deliberately designed with internal irregularities for that very reason.

Molecularly, some materials aren't.

Vibration resonance is a macroscopic problem, not a microscopic one. Resonance in individual molecules is not a problem. You've been watching too much Star Trek.

Now my question...how consistent is the rock blasting effect? I'm sure I've seen examples of phasers vaporizing tunnels through rock with no explosions. But I'd have to check on that. And why is it that a phaser can "vaporize" or "disintegrate" a person, and none of the floor they're standing on? Do drastic differences in the materials encountered by the chain reaction stop it?

I'm guessing there's some kind of inhibitor at boundary conditions, hence the fact that we don't see a big pit eaten out of the floor. Alternatively, the chain reaction might simply work best on the watery substances in a person's body, and fizzles out very quickly once it gets past that point.

What I'm thinking...do phasers act like DET weapons against certain materials (rock), and not others (non-crystalline organics, like plastic packing crates or people)?

Why shouldn't they? A flamethrower transfers energy to a person's body, but can cause a much greater conflagration when applied to dry kindling. If phasers involve some kind of freaky reaction which we've never heard of (a foregone conclusion given that they produce an effect we've never heard of), it is not outlandish to think that the situation is analogous.

A word on full impulse, Wong.

You have not earned the right to address me directly in such terms, fuckwad. You're not a drill sergeant, and I'm not a recruit, and you're not a friend either.

Again, this is subject to rechecking, but I was under the impression that "full impulse" was .25 the speed of light.

What the fuck does that have to do with this thread? And why should anyone care since "I was under the impression" is not a form of proof?

[Ted C]

And if visuals are to automatically be taken at face value, explain how:

This should be fun.

In TOS "Friday's Child," there's a space shot where the E-naught's registry number is backwards (mirrored). Maybe so you can read it in your rearview mirror.

The footage is legitimate, but it has been "flipped".

In TOS "The Doomsday Machine," stars are visible through the machine's neutronium hull in several shots. Clear neutronium? I like it, but...

The neutronium hull has flat, reflective spots on it that shine when light hits them from the right angle, much like flecks of mica.

In TOS "Day of the Dove," Scotty knocks a Klingon unconscious by hitting him on the elbow. Strong SOB...

Presumably the Klingon had a previous injury to that elbow, and passed out from the pain when Scotty hit it.

In TNG "Encounter at Farpoint," the Captain's Yacht is the source of a phaser beam.

1) We've never seen the Captain's Yacht of the Enterprise; there is no canon evidence that it exists.
2) The Enterprise has multiple phaser banks, although the main dorsal and ventral strips get the most use.

In TNG "The Dauphin," Dr. Pulaski calls security to sickbay and they show up in less than five seconds. Best response time I've ever seen from any security detail ever.

Guess she's just lucky; they must have been just outside in the corridor where they could immediately respond to her call.

In TNG "The Host," the Trill have builtup foreheads, and their symbionts completely subdue the host personality. This as opposed to Jadzia Dax. A perfect example of the viewer having to extrapolate - say, that there are two humanoid races on the Trill homeworld, both compatible with symbionts.

You're getting the hang of this quickly.

This in the absence of a "we don't like to talk about it" ala Worf's explanation of Klingon magic forehead ridges. Maybe it's the same thing that turned Klingon blood red after the events of ST6?

Actually the "ethnic cleansing" theory seems to work better for the forehead ridges, and given the redundancy of their biology, Klingons presumably have at least three different circulatory systems that run different-colored fluids (much like you have separate circulatory systems for blood and lymph).

In TNG "In Theory," a female crewmember walks past LaForge around a corner and a scream is heard. But when LaForge goes to investigate, the woman (who has fallen halfway through the deck) is facing back the way she came. Guess she was able to turn 180 degress as she fell, so we could see how scared she was.

Guess she turned for some reason before she actually sank through the floor. It's not like you actually saw the "sinking" take place.

In TNG "Darmok," the forward photon torpedo tube fires a phaser beam.

One of those additional phaser banks must be located right next to the torpedo tube.

In TNG "The Game," the forward photon torpedo tube emits a tractor beam.

Must be a tractor emitter right near there, too.

In TNG "The Next Phase," phased people can run and breathe and hear each other and sit in chairs and...

Oooh, that's been discussed at length. You have to go through flaming hoops to explain the nonsense in that episode, but what choice have you got?

In "The Final Frontier," the turbolift shaft that Spock, Kirk, and McCoy use to evade Sybok's cronies is much wider than any turbolift, and over 80 decks high according to the numbering, which increases and actually decreases again as they keep flying upward.

Not exactly sure what you're talking about; haven't seen it in ages; too painful.

And yes, they DID go to the center of the Galaxy.

And you prove this how?

Perhaps via a "warp highway" that's no longer there, but they did go. It doesn't matter that it looks wrong, any more than we can ignore Khan based on the fact that the Eugenics Wars haven't happened. It's fiction. Apparently the galactic core simply looks different in Trek.

Divergent timelines plague Star Trek. Their timeline obviously isn't ours, which explains why the Eugenics Wars never happened to us.

In "Generations," the Veridian sun dims seconds after Soran's probe is launched. I'll not even comment on how fast the probe must be, but what happened to the speed of light?

Horrendous, isn't it. We must be watching a visual interpretation of what the Federation's FTL sensors pick up. That, or the raw footage was edited for time.

In "First Contact," sparks that fly in the deflector dish scene immediately fall back towards the dish. Does it have external gravity that affects sparks but not drones or its own components?

Could be an electromagnetic effect instead of a gravitational effect.

In "Nemesis," the Enterprise is facing east in the shot (Italy is in the background) just before Picard's last conversation with B4. In the next space shot, the Enterprise is facing west. Did they have to turn it around so the repair peeps could reach the other side? Or maybe Italy was upside down and they fixed it.

Not having tortured myself with Nemesis[/b] yet, I'll have to leave this one to others.

Not to say that all visuals should be automatically discarded where tech capabilities are concerned, but you'll have to stretch to make sense of some of them, and to reconcile them with each other.

Nonetheless, when a visual observation conflicts with a character statement, the visual observation is inherently more reliable as evidence.

I will not assume that the doors Geordi was thrown through are identical to the E-D's sickbay doors are identical to the E-E's sickbay doors are identical to the Scimitar shuttlebay's doors are identical to the Scimitar bridge's doors are identical to every single door on Voyager are identical to...

That's fine. Not all doors on a given ship need to be constructed the same way, let alone doors on different ships.

No. Their performance is too inconsistent (thanks, B&B) for even visually identical doors to be structurally identical.

Indeed, if two doors demonstrate different structural properties, in spite of visual similarity, then you should conclude that they have different construction.

[Slartibartfast]

In TNG "The Next Phase," phased people can run and breathe and hear each other and sit in chairs and...

This has to be the most retarded argument of the whole bunch. Are you saying that we shouldn't trust the visuals because of these events? What is the alternative? Did the episode never happened? Maybe actually the visuals lie, and they did die from lack of oxygen? Did they fall thru the floor? OR MAYBE THEY WEREN'T OUT OF PHASE BUT EVERYONE WANTED TO IGNORE THEM OR THEY WERE IN THE HOLODECK WITH ILLUSORY WALLS. The physics behind it can be stupid, but the fact remains that this episode happened, Rho and Geordi BREATHED, and didn't FALL into space. Otherwise they wouldn't appear in any later episodes

[Metrion Cascade]

Slartibartfast wrote:

This has to be the most retarded argument of the whole bunch. Are you saying that we shouldn't trust the visuals because of these events? What is the alternative? Did the episode never happened? Maybe actually the visuals lie, and they did die from lack of oxygen? Did they fall thru the floor? OR MAYBE THEY WEREN'T OUT OF PHASE BUT EVERYONE WANTED TO IGNORE THEM OR THEY WERE IN THE HOLODECK WITH ILLUSORY WALLS. The physics behind it can be stupid, but the fact remains that this episode happened, Rho and Geordi BREATHED, and didn't FALL into space. Otherwise they wouldn't appear in any later episodes

No. I didn't say they shouldn't be trusted at all. I said (as have quite a few responses to my post) that they can't automatically be taken to mean the first thing that comes to mind when you see them. You have to, in Ted C's words, "jump through flaming hoops."

Ted C wrote:

The neutronium hull has flat, reflective spots on it that shine when light hits them from the right angle, much like flecks of mica.

Not the worst explanation. Neither was the notion that Spock might have been (gasp) wrong? It's simpler to explain (people are fallible) than transparent neutronium.

Presumably the Klingon had a previous injury to that elbow, and passed out from the pain when Scotty hit it.

A stretch, but the simplest I've heard. You see what I mean about having to fill in a lot of gaps.

Guess she's just lucky; they must have been just outside in the corridor where they could immediately respond to her call.

And carrying phasers (who knew they only needed five seconds to draw?).

Actually the "ethnic cleansing" theory seems to work better for the forehead ridges, and given the redundancy of their biology, Klingons presumably have at least three different circulatory systems that run different-colored fluids (much like you have separate circulatory systems for blood and lymph).

Yes, except there are individual Klingons (Kang, Kor, Koloth) whose foreheads changed between TOS and DS9. And what are the chances that every single phaser shot in Star Trek 6 hit the pink system (blood, lymph, whatever) and every single time after that, the phaser or ceremonial knife or whatever hit a different system? Maybe the loss of gravity somehow changed the blood...

Not exactly sure what you're talking about; haven't seen it in ages; too painful.

The scene is really absurd. I swear I saw Deck 80 something and then Deck 40 something above it.

Divergent timelines plague Star Trek. Their timeline obviously isn't ours, which explains why the Eugenics Wars never happened to us.

Exactly. And I assume they actually went to the center of the galaxy (by some means unavailable in later years) because that's where they said they went, and there's no canon indication that they lied or were wrong about something so major. I find it simpler to say they lost some ability (like a "warp highway") than to explain how they could have been wrong (or why everyone would have continuously lied to themselves and each other) about it.

Vibration resonance is a macroscopic problem, not a microscopic one. Resonance in individual molecules is not a problem. You've been watching too much Star Trek.

Actually I can't think of any decent example of such resonance against materials in Trek. Sure, the "crystalline entity," but there are no tractor beams in real life. And yes, a solid block of metal can transmit vibrations, and be damaged by them. This may not be a "microscopic problem" (in what sense?), but certain materials transmit vibrations better than others based on their microscopic structures. The effects are macroscopic (such as bits of graphite shearing off as a pencil is dragged across paper), but the molecular structures that enable them (graphite is a planar covalent crystal with weak bonds between planes) are not. Kind of moot, as I don't think phasers use any form of resonance, but do clarify how macroscopic events don't derive from the microscopic structures of the materials involved?

I'm guessing there's some kind of inhibitor at boundary conditions, hence the fact that we don't see a big pit eaten out of the floor. Alternatively, the chain reaction might simply work best on the watery substances in a person's body, and fizzles out very quickly once it gets past that point.

Basically what I'm thinking.

Why shouldn't they? A flamethrower transfers energy to a person's body, but can cause a much greater conflagration when applied to dry kindling. If phasers involve some kind of freaky reaction which we've never heard of (a foregone conclusion given that they produce an effect we've never heard of), it is not outlandish to think that the situation is analogous.

ITA.

You have not earned the right to address me directly in such terms, fuckwad. You're not a drill sergeant, and I'm not a recruit, and you're not a friend either.

Ever been in the military? There are people I dealt with for years (higher and lower ranked) by last name. It happens. My surname's Desjardins if that makes ya feel better (looking for Kleenex and Haagen-Dazs). Jesus, need to borrow a Midol sweetie? We'll watch Titanic together. It'll be fun. Or Edward Scissorhands if you need a real good cry. There, there.

I will kiss ass where it's warranted, but that's just crazy. Darth Wong it is.

And I'm running down a source on the .25c. It only came up because I ran across your impulse article while reading the wave page.

Darth Servo wrote:

BS. Your examples were of sudden heating AND cooling of the substance in question. The pyramid robbers headed the stones and cooled them. You admitted that yourself. Coffee mugs are filled with hot drinks and often quickly rinsed out with cold water afterwards. You need both to get the rapid expansion and contraction that shatters these things.

I didn't say I suddenly cooled the coffee mug. I took it from a room-temperature (about 70 F in my apartment) cupboard and suddenly filled it with hot coffee. And since when does fire nearby "suddenly" heat anything? It's not as if the rocks themselves were burning.

Lord of the Farce wrote:

In "Q Who", Q says the Borg are neither male or female. Then in Voyager we have 7 of 9. Guess the Q aren't as godlike as we thought.

He said "neither a he nor a she," which could have referred to Borg not having a cultural concept of gender (they do reproduce infants somehow, and I'd expect good ol' sperm and eggs to be easiest).

If (hand) phasers acted like DET, without sufficient protection, then vaporising a tunnel through rock should kill the shooter dead. Large volume of rock heated into vapor state kind of have that effect.

As Darth Wong has unassailably demonstrated, the phaser "disintegration" effect isn't literal vaporization. If it were, every "disintegration" would kill the shooter unless it was tiny, like a mouse or something. The matter "leaves" by some other means. I'm saying that "disintegration" isn't a DET effect. If the material is such that the effect is DET, it explodes rather than suddenly increasing in temperature. My idea about phasers was that it acts like two different weapons (DET against hard rock, pseudo-vaporizing chain reaction against softer things) depending on what it hits.

Essentially every response here is an example of what I'm saying - you have to do a lot of interpretation and extrapolation to make sense of a lot of the visuals. And wide assumptions like all Trek doors being the same become impossible.

[DPDarkPrimus]

In TOS "Day of the Dove," Scotty knocks a Klingon unconscious by hitting him on the elbow. Strong SOB...

Presumably the Klingon had a previous injury to that elbow, and passed out from the pain when Scotty hit it.

And of course, being psychic, Scotty knew that he should strike the Klingon there, instead of a place that would incapaticate an uninjured Klingon.

[Darth Servo]

I didn't say I suddenly cooled the coffee mug. I took it from a room-temperature (about 70 F in my apartment) cupboard and suddenly filled it with hot coffee.

And you'd never used the thing before? Internal fracturing from repeated sudden temperature changes add up over time.

And since when does fire nearby "suddenly" heat anything? It's not as if the rocks themselves were burning.

Don't try to re-write history. Everyone can see from your original post:

"Like how pyramid robbers would heat the stones with fire and then throw cold vinegar on them"

Throwing cold vinegar on room temperature stones wouldn't do jack to them.

[Metrion Cascade]

Metrion Cascade wrote:
And since when does fire nearby "suddenly" heat anything? It's not as if the rocks themselves were burning.

Don't try to re-write history. Everyone can see from your original post:

"Like how pyramid robbers would heat the stones with fire and then throw cold vinegar on them"

Throwing cold vinegar on room temperature stones wouldn't do jack to them.

First, pyramid stones and coffee cups are two different things. As are hot coffee and cold vinegar. I never proposed throwing cold vinegar on room temperature stones. That's a strawman. The temperature difference between cold vinegar (how cold could they get it?) and room temperature is probably nowhere near as great as the difference between room temperature and my coffee or fire-heated stone and cold vinegar.

And I'm not rewriting history. You said that the fire suddenly changed the stones' temperature, causing rapid expansion. I said there was no reason for the change to be that sudden, and you acted as if I were saying there was no fire at all. No. Another strawman. I'm saying that there was fire, and it heated the stones gradually. Then in comes the cold vinegar, which probably has a relatively high specific heat capacity and therefore DOES cause a rapid change in temperature compared to where the stones are after heating. So it wasn't rapid expansion and contraction, but the sudden change in temperature when the vinegar was applied.

[Slartibartfast]

You have to, in Ted C's words, "jump through flaming hoops."

Yes, you have to "jump through flaming hoops" to explain why the visuals make sense, when they don't. Not because somebody says fucked up shit and the visuals blatantly tell otherwise. The person can be wrong, or lying.

[Utsanomiko]

In TOS "Day of the Dove," Scotty knocks a Klingon unconscious by hitting him on the elbow. Strong SOB...

Presumably the Klingon had a previous injury to that elbow, and passed out from the pain when Scotty hit it.

And of course, being psychic, Scotty knew that he should strike the Klingon there, instead of a place that would incapaticate an uninjured Klingon.

I'd chalk it up to Dumb Luck. It happens.