I need some debate help

[Big Phil]

^star wars vs star trek

hey you guys should have mentioned you argued my points here too. I would have gladly came.

Going back to your very first douchey post - why exactly would this timeship be attempting to destroy the Empire?

[marsh8472]

^star wars vs star trek

hey you guys should have mentioned you argued my points here too. I would have gladly came.

Going back to your very first douchey post - why exactly would this timeship be attempting to destroy the Empire?

competition. The same reason we have the Olympics.

[Formless]

^star wars vs star trek

hey you guys should have mentioned you argued my points here too. I would have gladly came.

Going back to your very first douchey post - why exactly would this timeship be attempting to destroy the Empire?

competition. The same reason we have the Olympics.

*sniff* oh, gag me with a spork, that reeks. Seriously, bullshit. Why would Annorax give a shit about "competition?" That's your motive, not his.

[Ritterin Sophia]

You cannot have your cake and eat it too. Just like Curtis Saxton can write "a heavy turbolaser can destroy a solar system with a single shot" the plot on star trek is that the krenim is protected from space time and impervious to weapons. There's no law that says we cannot use dialogs, sensor data, ship descriptions, and the writer's intent as evidence aside from the visual effects.

There's nothing that says you can't, but when everything we see in the show contradicts what we see, it's wrong. If the Krenim Timeship was completely removed from our reality we would not be capable of interacting with it, photons wouldn't reflect off it, we wouldn't hear it, nothing. But that ignores that THE KRENIM TIMESHIP DOESN'T EXIST.

and if its canon then it's valid (you agreed). If you deny the attributes of the weapon then you've already lost.

In NuTrek they consistently title the anomoly that destroys Vulcan a singularity, yet Spock is able to observe the destruction of it opening up on Vulcan from one of it's moons, if it were an actual black hole spock should have become one with Vulcan at that very second. The point is you seem to be operating under the conservative method of 'say it enough and a lie becomes true', no matter how many times they say it if it doesn't match onscreen evidence they're wrong.

[Formless]

I don't think he understands that existence by definition is a state of being predicated on the ability to interact with the rest of the universe and that interaction requires you to be part of time and history. That's why "existing outside of time" is a self contradictory and logically incoherent concept. Its just like christians who try the same crap with God to explain how he can be omniscient and know the future, they don't understand that the concepts they are trying to combine cannot mix by definition.

[marsh8472]

There's nothing that says you can't, but when everything we see in the show contradicts what we see, it's wrong. If the Krenim Timeship was completely removed from our reality we would not be capable of interacting with it, photons wouldn't reflect off it, we wouldn't hear it, nothing. But that ignores that THE KRENIM TIMESHIP DOESN'T EXIST.

In NuTrek they consistently title the anomoly that destroys Vulcan a singularity, yet Spock is able to observe the destruction of it opening up on Vulcan from one of it's moons, if it were an actual black hole spock should have become one with Vulcan at that very second. The point is you seem to be operating under the conservative method of 'say it enough and a lie becomes true', no matter how many times they say it if it doesn't match onscreen evidence they're wrong.

I don't think he understands that existence by definition is a state of being predicated on the ability to interact with the rest of the universe and that interaction requires you to be part of time and history. That's why "existing outside of time" is a self contradictory and logically incoherent concept. Its just like christians who try the same crap with God to explain how he can be omniscient and know the future, they don't understand that the concepts they are trying to combine cannot mix by definition.

Order of precidence works different in star trek canon according to http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Memory_ ... non_policy

The following are valid resources from the episodes and movies and may be referenced in Trek universe articles as citations, in descending order of precedence:

1. Spoken dialogue (what is said)
2. Visual material (what is seen)
3. Aural material (what is heard that is not dialogue)

Articles need to cite each resource used as the basis for their information. Generally, everything seen or heard in any Star Trek episode or movie can be used as a resource for an article.

In this case the countless dialog of the krenim ship being described as being outside space-time overirdes your visual evidence against it.

[Formless]

You dishonest fucktard, that's MEMORY ALPHA'S canon policy, NOT Paramount's canon Policy! It says so at the top of the fucking page! Go take a hike in a minefield you waste of skin.

Also, whatever respect I had for Memory Alpha as a resource for Trek just evaporated violently.

[DrStrangelove]

The following are valid resources from the episodes and movies and may be referenced in Trek universe articles as citations, in descending order of precedence:

1. Spoken dialogue (what is said)
2. Visual material (what is seen)
3. Aural material (what is heard that is not dialogue)

Which is fine if you were writing a Memory Alpha article, go find where it says that in the OFFICIAL PARAMOUNT canon policy

[marsh8472]

According to canonwars.com there isn't an official precedence either way.

On that first reason, however, hangs a great deal. One enduring question in Vs. Debates is whether the dialog or the visuals take precedence in the case of conflict. The rule of thumb in the Vs. Debate is to take the visuals. However, this is not necessarily the view of the keepers of the Star Trek canon. Ron Moore, for instance, was surprised to hear that the Defiant had landing gear on the Master Systems Display in Engineering. On the other hand, when later asked if the Defiant would ever land on screen he simply said it was a pricey effect and probably wouldn't be done . . . not that the ship didn't have them.

And, of course, there's the tale of the end of "A Call To Arms"[DSN5]. The writers and producers intended for the DS9 regulars, who'd just had to abandon the station, to simply be shown joining up with the fleet in the Defiant. The visual effects department, however, showed the Federation fleet heading straight back toward DS9 with the Defiant leading the way, looking for all the world like the whole fleet was about to go beat the hell out of the Dominion most immediately. Hence the hasty rewrite of the opening of the sixth season, wherein we see a shattered Federation fleet limping back to Federation space.

In short, the dialog vs. visuals idea is still a bit hairy either way.

I can see choosing to disregard dialog because of exaggeration but not much else. Moreover, since memory alpha (a major star trek site) uses dialog over video president there is nothing wrong with doing that. This is the dialog you would have to ignore to accept the claim that the ship is not outside of space-time.

ANNORAX: You surprise me, Obrist, After so many years you still perceive time through conventional eyes. Never is a word that has no meaning here. As long as we stay on this vessel, protected from space-time, we have all eternity to accomplish our mission.

KIM: That entire vessel's in a state of temporal flux. It's like they exist outside space-time.

PARIS: This ship's temporal core keeps the vessel out of phase with normal space-time, but it's shields are incredibly weak. You take that core offline, and a photon grenade could penetrate the hull.

ANNORAX: We're outside space-time, impervious to their weapons. Let them come.

ANNORAX: Get back to your stations! You will not disobey me! We're phasing back into normal space-time. Reconfigure to conventional weapons.

So either both sides are wrong about how the ship works (including the designer). Or it is possible to create technology in star trek which allow them to be visible while outside of space-time. Given the options, you might as well just take it for granted that our current theories of physics don't apply here and just assume that they know things that we don't in the 24th century. That makes more sense.

[Formless]

Here is a link to the site in question. Best to have a link so no one accuses you of fabricating that passage or taking it out of context. Considering your attempt to pass off MA's policy as official I wouldn't put it past you, although it seems legit in this case.

I love the way you take that statement "In short, the dialog vs. visuals idea is still a bit hairy either way," as meaning your interpretation is the right one even though earlier in the same part of the article you quoted it said "The rule of thumb in the Vs. Debate is to take the visuals." There is also the conclusion at the end of the article which you neglected to post:

Thus, we find that the Star Trek canon is made up entirely of the materials from each of the live-action television series (TOS, TNG, DS9, VOY, and ENT) and the ten films, along with the two Voyager background novels of Jeri Taylor. The new high-definition TOS (the Enhanced Original Series, or EOS)

Which is nothing new, everyone was already operating on that assumption. Minus the Jeri Tailor novels.

However, you still haven't answered the points against the dialogue; the fact that Annorax was fucking nuts; the fact that he clearly was exaggerating at some points; the fact that his inability to accomplish his goals for 200 years contradicts his earlier claims and more importantly many of your own; the fact that YoH makes no sense if he is actually outside of space-time because of the observed phenomena and the fact that existing outside of space-time is impossible and logically contradictory in the first place. You throw your hands up in the air and decry your interpretation of canon must be true when there is no statement either way.

Also:

Given the options, you might as well just take it for granted that our current theories of physics don't apply here and just assume that they know things that we don't in the 24th century. That makes more sense.

Which theories, and how are they wrong? And how does that make it logical?

[Formless]

Ghetto edit: (this is one of the points I meant to add that you have never addressed): Tell me again how a ship that exists outside of space-time can be deleted from time, thus reversing everything it did to history?

[marsh8472]

I love the way you take that statement "In short, the dialog vs. visuals idea is still a bit hairy either way," as meaning your interpretation is the right one even though earlier in the same part of the article you quoted it said "The rule of thumb in the Vs. Debate is to take the visuals." There is also the conclusion at the end of the article which you neglected to post:

there's nothing wrong with my interpretation. The visuals may be the rule of thumb according to them but they show that this isn't necessarily the best way.

I love the way you take that statement "In short, the dialog vs. visuals idea is still a bit hairy either way," as meaning your interpretation is the right one even though earlier in the same part of the article you quoted it said "The rule of thumb in the Vs. Debate is to take the visuals." There is also the conclusion at the end of the article which you neglected to post:

glad you love that. I bet you love the thought of raping jawa's more though



you have a blowup doll of yoda too, don't you.

However, you still haven't answered the points against the dialogue; the fact that Annorax was fucking nuts; the fact that he clearly was exaggerating at some points; the fact that his inability to accomplish his goals for 200 years contradicts his earlier claims and more importantly many of your own; the fact that YoH makes no sense if he is actually outside of space-time because of the observed phenomena and the fact that existing outside of space-time is impossible and logically contradictory in the first place. You throw your hands up in the air and decry your interpretation of canon must be true when there is no statement either way.

I've given answers to all of these points. As usual you have a bad memory. I'll summarize them.

the fact that Annorax was fucking nuts:

here's his evaluation from the episode

PARIS: If that little display doesn't convince you I don't know what will. He's insane.
CHAKOTAY: No he's not, Wounded, maybe, even tortured, but I can still reach him, convince him to stop.

Also I have pointed out that annorax does not need to be the one that commands the ship. He has also shown great determination. Its this kind of obsessive behavior that would be the death of the empire in a war with this weapon.

the fact that he clearly was exaggerating at some points

let me think... maybe he exaggerated about something. Okay here's one time he's exaggerating

ANNORAX: If I told you to count the stars in the cosmos would the task ever be complete?
OBRIST: Sir?
ANNORAX: Our attempts may be sufficient. They may be even relatively successful, but they will never be complete. Choose your words with more precision.

They estimate that there are 10^24 stars in the universe. This is a finite number so maybe that's an exaggeration.

I don't see much that would qualify unless of course you're using circular reasoning.

You say he's wrong because he's exaggerating (or "clearly" exaggerating as you put it) and you know he's exaggerating because you think he's wrong. Then you state that its a fact and ask me what I have to say about. I say this: you're an idiot. This is like asking someone "Is it true that you no longer beat your wife?", a loaded question fallacy.

the fact that his inability to accomplish his goals for 200 years contradicts his earlier claims and more importantly many of your own

But in the end he did accomplish his mission. There was a temporal incursion that restored the timeline and he got his wife back.

the fact that YoH makes no sense if he is actually outside of space-time because of the observed phenomena and the fact that existing outside of space-time is impossible and logically contradictory in the first place.

First off, I'll throw it out there that it doesn't have to make sense (especially for you) for it to be true. Here's a quote from an episode of TNG

TROI: Good. Don't satisfy its curiosity.
(A face appears in the void)
WORF: Captain, look.
NAGILUM [on viewscreen]: Why are you so alarmed when I've gone to such trouble to look just like you?
DATA: Captain, sensors show nothing out there. Absolutely nothing.
LAFORGE: Sure is a damned ugly nothing.

The USS Relativity is a ship that exists outside of space-time and we can see that as well.

There are other examples of phenomia that you would expect to not be visible yet there. So this is more than just a case of bad science, it's a recurring theme and like any technology on star trek or star wars that is determined to be impossible to exist we must just accept the fact that they have the ability to violate our laws of physics in these cases.

You throw your hands up in the air and decry your interpretation of canon must be true when there is no statement either way.

it's not a wrong interpretation. You guys are going to need more than that.

*****************************************************
Okay now for the record I addressed each of the points you mentioned so no need to make the claim that I haven't.
*****************************************************

Which theories, and how are they wrong? And how does that make it logical?

Since light is reflected off of the ship someone might say (not you of course) it violates the laws of motion and that the photons are not supposed to bounce off the ship if there's nothing there. I would say there's a difference between an object not existing and an object existing outside of space-time.

Here is a quote from Star Trek Voyager episode Relativity between 7 of 9 a crew member on the relativity

- Why do you need me?
Your ocular implant.
It can detect disruptions in space-time better than our sensors.

That might provide some evidence of why voyager can scan the krenim weapon while it is outside of space-time.

Also note that this quote from a star trek episode supports that the laws of physics don't need to be followed:

Captain Jean-Luc Picard: Commander, have you been able to determine the cause of the warp breach?
Lt. Commander Geordi La Forge: No, sir. Everything was normal, and then suddenly it's like the laws of physics went right out the window.
[characteristic flash of Q appearing]
Q: And why shouldn't they? They're so inconvenient.

Ghetto edit: (this is one of the points I meant to add that you have never addressed): Tell me again how a ship that exists outside of space-time can be deleted from time, thus reversing everything it did to history?

sure dumbass although I would recommend watching the episode. Here's the quote:

ANNORAX: The core is destabilising. It's going to cause a temporal incursion within the ship!

The ship exists outside of space time but it erased itself when it wasn't out of space time. The core destabilized and since they weren't protected from changes in the time line because they lost their temporal field the ship erased itself.

[Ritterin Sophia]

canonwars.com

Owned and operated by a lying, moronic, twat by the name of Robert Scott Anderson. Everything he's said there is covered in his article on the main site.

[marsh8472]

canonwars.com

Owned and operated by a lying, moronic, twat by the name of Robert Scott Anderson. Everything he's said there is covered in his article on the main site.

really?? damn I'm starting to like this Robert guy the more you guys talk about him. I recently submitted an essay to him myself actually. I'm always happy to put you star wars people in your place.

[hunter5]

canonwars.com

Owned and operated by a lying, moronic, twat by the name of Robert Scott Anderson. Everything he's said there is covered in his article on the main site.

really?? damn I'm starting to like this Robert guy the more you guys talk about him. I recently submitted an essay to him myself actually. I'm always happy to put you star wars people in your place.

So you respect a man who is a proven liar just because you can't stand the fact star wars beats trek.

[marsh8472]

So you respect a man who is a proven liar just because you can't stand the fact star wars beats trek.

I respect a man that goes out of his way to make a site just to dish it to people like you.

[hunter5]

So you respect a man who is a proven liar just because you can't stand the fact star wars beats trek.

I respect a man that goes out of his way to make a site just to dish it to people like you.

Thank you for proving my point.

[Big Phil]

So you respect a man who is a proven liar just because you can't stand the fact star wars beats trek.

I respect a man that goes out of his way to make a site just to dish it to people like you.

Are we sure marshmallow man isn't a dorkstar sockpuppet?

[Lagmonster]

The staff always has their eyes out for potential sock puppets, but until further notice, this guy is clean. I understand that people have seen this kind of thing before and are naturally suspicious, but I have to ask that people stick to dealing with his arguments rather than his identity.

[Big Phil]

No worries - his arguments are just so Dorkstar-like that it's hard to believe another functioning human being could be so similar years later.

[Lord Revan]

No worries - his arguments are just so Dorkstar-like that it's hard to believe another functioning human being could be so similar years later.

If you ask me he seemed more like a dorkstar acolyte, but I've not faced the real deal so I can't be sure.

[Formless]

glad you love that. I bet you love the thought of raping jawa's more though

Still projecting your homoerotic fantasies onto me, eh? And still evading points and repeating himself like its no one's business, even though no one gives a shit about dialogue by such incompetent assholes as populate the voyager crew when observed phenomena pretty much invalidates every claim you have made up till this point. After all, if the points are against he accuracy of the dialogue don't use fucking dialogue as evidence that the dialogue is accurate! Circular reasoning much? Even your own Dorkstar says "in VS debates take the visuals," and this coming from a man whose dishonesty is legendary. In short, grow some neurons or fuck off.

[Teleros]

PARIS: If that little display doesn't convince you I don't know what will. He's insane.
CHAKOTAY: No he's not, Wounded, maybe, even tortured, but I can still reach him, convince him to stop.

Chakotay was hardly a disinterested person here. He clearly wanted to believe Annorax in order to help Voyager.

let me think... maybe he exaggerated about something. Okay here's one time he's exaggerating

We never see him control the destiny of a single molecule, and after 200 years it's obvious his calculations are screwy as well. See also the "we're not in space-time!" nonsense.

But in the end he did accomplish his mission. There was a temporal incursion that restored the timeline and he got his wife back.

No. He FAILED, and by pure chance it turned out all right. Also note, that he didn't get his wife back, as he was erased along with the crew & ship.

TROI: Good. Don't satisfy its curiosity.
(A face appears in the void)
WORF: Captain, look.
NAGILUM [on viewscreen]: Why are you so alarmed when I've gone to such trouble to look just like you?
DATA: Captain, sensors show nothing out there. Absolutely nothing.
LAFORGE: Sure is a damned ugly nothing.

Translation: the sensors were fooled - hardly an impossible thing to do.

Okay now for the record I addressed each of the points you mentioned so no need to make the claim that I haven't.

Eh, mostly you've just thrown the same old things back at us or just stated that we're wrong and you're not. Or tried to muddy the waters by referring to completely different things, like the USS Relativity etc.

No worries - his arguments are just so Dorkstar-like that it's hard to believe another functioning human being could be so similar years later.

Darkstar's always seemed to write better than marsh8472 from what I've seen.

[Darth Wong]

So you respect a man who is a proven liar just because you can't stand the fact star wars beats trek.

I respect a man that goes out of his way to make a site just to dish it to people like you.

It says a lot about you that you respect a man who has fervour for Star Trek but no real-life accomplishments whatsoever.

[Darth Wong]

Darkstar's always seemed to write better than marsh8472 from what I've seen.

He should; his website appears to be his only passion in life. This "marsh" character on the other hand, is pretty much what you'd expect from anyone who thought Voyager was a fantastic show (he actually has "8472" in his username), and who lives in a suburb of Reno.