More Trektardism

pstanton · Post by **pstanton** » 2007-12-05 10:22pm

Darth Ruinus wrote:Guys guys guys, you have it all wrong, sure the Jedi COULD simply Force Push him into a wall all day or untill he breaks something, sure the Jedi COULD shot objects at Worf all day too, and yes, the Jedi COULD probably beat Wof senseless with fist to fist combat but you are all forgetting something.

Worf is a Klingon, and we all know how badass Klingons are.

obviously, theres no way a mere jedi could defeat a barking, bloodthirsty klingon with a bat'leth. Logic doesn't matter, all that matters is Worf would jump in with a "blood-curdling" warcry which would so terrify the Jedi he would surrender immediately. ha.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2007-12-06 02:24am

skies wrote:Two observations that blow the entire argument apart:

1. He states that the time between the exit from hyperspace to the DS2 took 8 hours.

Based entirely on his assumption that the Death Star was completely immobile and of course Darkstar's assumptions are always considered canon.

(even though the thing can obviously rotate, since the super laser was always facing the rebel fleet)

After reading through that link, I had to go for a quick walk. Seriously, I think I lost some IQ points.

Read his "debate" with Mike Wong. That link I provided before is actually quite mild for Darkstar.

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/HateMail/RSA/

Peptuck · Post by **Peptuck** » 2007-12-06 02:36am

skies wrote:
Darth Servo wrote:
Coiler wrote:Anyway, after watching ROTJ again earlier today, I can't see how anyone could make the claim that it took the fleet several hours to get to Endor. Very soon after Leia says "Han, hurry, the fleet will be here any minute", the fleet shows up.
Have you read Darkstar's bullshit on that?

+http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWendorday.html
OMG... just WOW... It just goes on and on; one long string of tortured logic based upon bizarre assumptions ans assertion. My favorite part was where he elevates HIS time-line to Canon status because the visuals he uses are from the film (and therefore canon).

Two observations that blow the entire argument apart:

1. He states that the time between the exit from hyperspace to the DS2 took 8 hours. This is ridiculous since doing so would give the Emperor (the MAIN target of the assault) hours to escape, and we see from the flow of events (Bridge scene with Akbar and Cockpit scene with Lando) show that it took just a few minutes, plus we see Endor and the DS2 expand rapidly in just a few seconds. We can also assume that the Rebels would not exit so far that it would take more than a few minutes to reach the target, since that would be tactically stupid.

2. By his time-line the Imps took DAYS to move Han, Leah, et. al. to the clearing. Why would they bother? Once you capture prisoners, especially high value ones like Han and Leah, you send them off to confinement and interrogation, you don't march them off for parade days after capture (in front of nobody other than the troops there to capture them no less). Why were they not taken to the Emperor so he could use them as extra leverage against Luke (who apparently was trying to bang the Imperial receptionist all this time)?

After reading through that link, I had to go for a quick walk. Seriously, I think I lost some IQ points.

I personally view it as some horrific, massive perversion/cargo-culting of Mike's assertion that proper analysis of the films/series treats visual observation as more important than dialogue.

Teleros · Post by **Teleros** » 2007-12-06 10:36am

We can also assume that the Rebels would not exit so far that it would take more than a few minutes to reach the target, since that would be tactically stupid.

As stupid as a certain Admiral in TESB, and we all know how that ended

...

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2007-12-06 06:52pm

I found something interesting in the Star Wars Databank

As Guri continued her pursuit, she came face-to-face with Jedi Luke Skywalker. Finally, Guri found the challenge she had sought after so many years of easy killing. Despite the fact that the palace was to explode around them in three minutes, Guri challenged Skywalker to a hand-to-hand brawl. With the Force as his ally, Skywalker defeated Guri, knocking her down with a hit that would have knocked a normal human unconscious. Guri conceded defeat. Skywalker offered her sanctuary with the Alliance.

Right there, Luke beat the SW equivalent of Data in hand-to-hand combat, without a lightsaber.

Luke > Guri = Data > Worf.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2007-12-07 12:06am

CaptainChewbacca wrote:Luke > Guri = Data > Worf.

I'd make that Guri > Data since Guri was actually competent and had built-in weapons, not the idiotic standard-issue hand phaser that Data is stuck with.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2007-12-07 12:06am

SW.com has posted a blurb about the upcoming The Force Unleashed which among other things states:

SW.com wrote: The official The Force Unleashed novel by author Sean Williams (based on the story by Haden Blackman) will cover the events of the game, providing the one true "canon" path of events that affect the Star Wars saga.

From here.
Could be useful for the 'tards that uses game mechanics for their arguments...

skies · Post by **skies** » 2007-12-07 12:23am

Mange wrote:SW.com has posted a blurb about the upcoming The Force Unleashed which among other things states:
SW.com wrote: The official The Force Unleashed novel by author Sean Williams (based on the story by Haden Blackman) will cover the events of the game, providing the one true "canon" path of events that affect the Star Wars saga.
From here.
Could be useful for the 'tards that uses game mechanics for their arguments...

Yes, but is it Canon until Darkstar says so?

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2007-12-07 01:12am

Darth Servo wrote:
CaptainChewbacca wrote:Luke > Guri = Data > Worf.
I'd make that Guri > Data since Guri was actually competent and had built-in weapons, not the idiotic standard-issue hand phaser that Data is stuck with.

Wait, since when did Guri have built-in weapons?

Darth Yoshi · Post by **Darth Yoshi** » 2007-12-07 11:51am

I suppose you could say that Guri's construction is so advanced that her entire body counts as one big weapon, but that's kind of stretching it.

CaptainChewbacca · Post by **CaptainChewbacca** » 2007-12-07 01:07pm

Darth Yoshi wrote:I suppose you could say that Guri's construction is so advanced that her entire body counts as one big weapon, but that's kind of stretching it.

Then the same would be true for data. Besides, this is specifically hand-to-hand.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2007-12-07 02:05pm

I have to wonder if a lot of these people slept through the movies. In ROTS, you can clearly see that General Grievous is throwing punches so hard that when he misses Obi-Wan and connects with a starfighter, he puts a dent in the hull. And yet, despite hitting Obi-Wan numerous times with his metal fists (even sending him flying), Obi-Wan doesn't suffer so much as a bruise.

The fact is that Jedi Knights can canonically withstand blows that would incapacitate and/or kill a normal human being. Treating them as nothing more than humans with really fast reflexes and situationally-dependent TK (which is how the Trekkies seem to view them) is bullshit.

Peptuck · Post by **Peptuck** » 2007-12-07 02:30pm

Darth Wong wrote: The fact is that Jedi Knights can canonically withstand blows that would incapacitate and/or kill a normal human being. Treating them as nothing more than humans with really fast reflexes and situationally-dependent TK (which is how the Trekkies seem to view them) is bullshit.

But Wong! You yourself have talked about varying power levels in attacks! You're being hypocritical here, as Greivous could have been holding back while punching Obi-Wan, even though there's no reason whatsoever for him to actually be holding back while punching him!

/trektard

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2007-12-07 09:05pm

I'd REALLY like to see the SFJ explanation for Mike's starfighter example. So Grievous is holding back just so he can toy with Ben longer or something but on this particular punch, he's putting out all the stops because somehow he KNOWS it's going to be a miss just so how he can say 'See, that's what I could REALLY do to you if I wanted'?
If Jedi are no more tough than ordinary humans how come they can can drop from preposterous heights with about the same ill effects as a human falling flat on his face from a standing position?

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2007-12-07 09:06pm

Yes, I know, it's 'pulling out all the stops', don't remind me.

Ryan Thunder · Post by **Ryan Thunder** » 2007-12-07 10:10pm

Batman wrote:I'd REALLY like to see the SFJ explanation for Mike's starfighter example.

He'd probably try to say it means that human flesh is tougher than starfighter hull.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2007-12-07 10:30pm

No, you're right, my bad. I forgot SW humans are naturally born with a metal spine.
So come how this one never pops up where it would BENEFIT SW in a ST vs SW debate?
For those who didn't get it, that was a rethorical question.

Terralthra · Post by **Terralthra** » 2007-12-08 12:09am

You're forgetting - the hull of the Enterprise is so weak it needs a structural integrity field up at all times while in orbit of a planet so that it doesn't start falling apart. Of course trektards think it's reasonable for it to be dented by a punch.

Peptuck · Post by **Peptuck** » 2007-12-08 12:21am

Terralthra wrote:You're forgetting - the hull of the Enterprise is so weak it needs a structural integrity field up at all times while in orbit of a planet so that it doesn't start falling apart. Of course trektards think it's reasonable for it to be dented by a punch.

I find it amusing that the fucking Space Shuttles are tougher than the Enterprise.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2007-12-08 12:25am

Peptuck wrote:I find it amusing that the fucking Space Shuttles are tougher than the Enterprise.

Once upon a time on Wayne's page, there was a quote from IIRC Brian Young about a certain energy figure in Trek that damaged the E-D. Brian pointed out the figure was less than a large car at freeway speeds, with a picture of the Bluesmobile about to ram the ship.

Peptuck · Post by **Peptuck** » 2007-12-08 01:04am

Darth Servo wrote:
Peptuck wrote:I find it amusing that the fucking Space Shuttles are tougher than the Enterprise.
Once upon a time on Wayne's page, there was a quote from IIRC Brian Young about a certain energy figure in Trek that damaged the E-D. Brian pointed out the figure was less than a large car at freeway speeds, with a picture of the Bluesmobile about to ram the ship.

Well, at least its consistent with what we see in the series. Hell, in "Cause and Effect" the Enterpride-D is destroyed by a scraping impact along a single warp nacelle.

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2007-12-08 03:22am

Darth Servo wrote:Once upon a time on Wayne's page, there was a quote from IIRC Brian Young about a certain energy figure in Trek that damaged the E-D. Brian pointed out the figure was less than a large car at freeway speeds, with a picture of the Bluesmobile about to ram the ship.

It's still there:

http://www.mrpoesmorgue.com/usvsd/shiel ... ields.html

Lord Poe · Post by **Lord Poe** » 2007-12-08 04:04am

I can't believe these idiots are bringing up Klingon wanking AGAIN! Fuck a Jedi, Han Solo could kick Worf's ass! Have we forgotten that Kirk and Major Kira beat the shit out of every armed and unarmed Klingon they ever met?

And what's this about Jedi only being able to use TK when they are calm and can concentrate? Suuure; Obi-Wan had no worries at all as he was hanging over a bottomless pit, before he flew up in the air and called Qui-Gon's lightsaber to him.

THen there's the "lightweight" battledroids I'm reading about on SFJ. Right. How does this explain the Force push Darth Maul gave Obi-Wan, or Maul TK-ing a piece of debris into a door panel in TPM? Or Dooky blasting Anakin back 10 feet after cutting off his arm?

Post by **NecronLord** » 2007-12-08 06:54am

Lightweight battle droids? But... we see them being made. They have inch thick armoured chest plates...

Post by **Vympel** » 2007-12-08 07:37am

Lord Poe wrote:
And what's this about Jedi only being able to use TK when they are calm and can concentrate? Suuure; Obi-Wan had no worries at all as he was hanging over a bottomless pit, before he flew up in the air and called Qui-Gon's lightsaber to him.

Or Maul pushing Obi-Wan into the pit in TPM, or Dooku force-pushing Obi-Wan in RotS, or Dooku simultaneously force-choking Obi-Wan while kicking Anakin in RotS, or Anakin in AotC tossing droid parts at Geonosians while on the conveyor belt.

THen there's the "lightweight" battledroids I'm reading about on SFJ

Only a nincompoop who assumes his conclusion as a premise would look at a metal humanoid robot and assume it must be fucking light:- ie. "Jedi aren't so tough, so those battledroids they casually toss around must be really easy to push!"