More Trektardism

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Thanks, I'll bear that in mind if he continues to whine

And if you do, it would also be interesting to see if you can get an answer to why he thinks having "marines and infantries" is A) an "Americentric" concept and B) said officers would have "no place" on vessels that routinely encounter hostile forces and also serve as the primary defensive organization for the UFP when aggressors attack. Both of these were part of his original assertion as well, though this goes less to his erroneous facts than to the illogical justification for them.

I quoted a lot of what you said in my response, seeing as (predictably) Shuttle didn't take the hint

[Joe Momma]

I find it fascinating that people even think that "Starfleet is not a military outfit" is even a viable argument in a vs. debate. Aside from its obvious factual inacurracy, what good does it actually do in the debate? Are they actually admitting that the Federation has no military force? If so, it further confirms blatant Fed incompetence.

As seen in the forum referenced by this thread, versions of this argument get trotted out in a couple of different contexts:

1) JMSpock argued that Starfleet does have combat-dedicated forces, we just do not see them on the shows because a) Starfleet's primary function is exploration, not combat and b) warships have "limited space and barely enough personnel to handle all the technical duties(.)"

Darth Servo pointed out that the evidence does not support argument b -- ships with enough rooms to house families in peacetime should be able to accomodate troops in a war. Argument a is simply used as an excuse by trektards like JMSpock to baselessly speculate about massively powerful ground combat units that just happen to be off-screen at all times but somehow assuredly exist. Never mind that we saw examples of the ground troops that Starfleet used during the Dominion War and they were nothing like JMSpock's wild flights of fancy.

2) Shuttle argued in turn that Starfleet is not a military.

The statement itself has already been thoroughly dissected. The reasons for it appeared to be nothing more than asserting that because Darth Servo made such an erroneous assumption, it demonstrates that Servo does not understand the facts or philosophies behind Trek and is thus arguing from ignorance. The ease with which the argument is demolished only demonstrates Shuttle's own ignorance of both Trek and real life.

Part of the attitude in that second argument probably stems from the tendency of Roddenberry and other ST producers themselves to have conflated the form of a military organization with a dominant ideology of militarism. The same fans that accept this uncritically are probably the same ones who think ST portrays an egalitarian utopian future despite many blatant examples of racism and sexism by the UFP and Starfleet -- for them, liking the series means drinking the Kool-Aid.

Meanwhile, grown-ups can actually enjoy things while not being afraid to examine them critically and acknowledge their failings. I imagine that's why they stretch so desperately in their arguments for Starfleet Uber Alles. They like it best so it MUST win regardless of reason or evidence. Christ, with that kind of thinking, I'd have to argue that my 80-year-old grandfather could beat Mike Tyson in a boxing match or people would accuse me of being a mindless grandpa-hater.

[Darth Wong]

For the Trektards, they're always hunting for excuses to dream up fantastic weapons or abilities that we don't actually see in use on the show. Many of their bizarre and dishonest tactics revolve around this singular desire, which is why they so often quote this "not a military organization" rhetoric. The implication is that if they wanted to, they could pull out the hidden can of whoop-ass and crush everyone flat, with all kinds of abilities that they've been keeping under wraps until now (despite fighting the Dominion War).

[Kane Starkiller]

Naturally at the same time they will often insist that we can't expect the Empire to field shielded droids like Droidekas because it's lost technology.

[Joe Momma]

Meanwhile, grown-ups can actually enjoy things while not being afraid to examine them critically and acknowledge their failings. I imagine that's why they stretch so desperately in their arguments for Starfleet Uber Alles. They like it best so it MUST win regardless of reason or evidence. Christ, with that kind of thinking, I'd have to argue that my 80-year-old grandfather could beat Mike Tyson in a boxing match or people would accuse me of being a mindless grandpa-hater.

Ghetto edit: The critical statements in that paragraph apply to the Kool-Aid drinkers, not the adults. That should be obvious in context, but I'd hate to confuse reading-impaired dolts like TJAsslick.

[OmegaGuy]

What's the point of even debating these people? They're never going to change their minds, and their whole board is biased against you.

[Peptuck]

What's the point of even debating these people? They're never going to change their minds, and their whole board is biased against you.

Fun.

[Darth Servo]

What's the point of even debating these people? They're never going to change their minds, and their whole board is biased against you.

To see how stupid a statement they can make after painting themselves into a corner for the 500th time. There's a bet going on in the super secret warsie conspiracy you know.

[Vympel]

My favorite aspect of the "not a military organization" apologetic is how it falls apart when viewed on a case by case basis. The classic episode is the Siege of AR-558, where every single quote directly contradicts every apologetic argument thrown up to defend the laughable showing we see on screen.

But they were poorly supplied!

Ben Sisko. Where would you like your supplies?

But that was only medicine and food!

Even if we accept that Bashir was being 100% exhaustive in his list of supplies rather than just belittling the supplies to further his point, is the argument then that they sent a ship to a critical objective with everything but the heavy weapons and other relevant military supplies they so desperately needed?

Their defences and equipment was inadequate because they had been fighting so very long!

I think you've set up a solid defense perimeter, but I would tighten this flank.

(notice Sisko doesn't pillory them for their defence being nothing but a collection of rocks, or the mysterious lack of all those heavy weapons and personal deflector shields that fanatics insist they have in abundant quantities in war)

[Darth Servo]

Oh, but Vympel, everything is relative. That was a solid defense perimeter considering what was available.

[skies]

For the Trektards, they're always hunting for excuses to dream up fantastic weapons or abilities that we don't actually see in use on the show. Many of their bizarre and dishonest tactics revolve around this singular desire, which is why they so often quote this "not a military organization" rhetoric. The implication is that if they wanted to, they could pull out the hidden can of whoop-ass and crush everyone flat, with all kinds of abilities that they've been keeping under wraps until now (despite fighting the Dominion War).

I think that this Trekkie reliance on imaginary super-weapons that can be designed and build overnight, with no development period, is a tacit concession that SW will beat ST without breaking a sweat. After all, if ST was really superior to SW, they wouldn't need to resort to these sorts of boondoggles.

The funny thing about this insistence that the Star Fleet is not military is that it makes absolutely no difference to the outcome of the debate. Whether Star fleet is military or not, it's the best the Federation has available for defense. Their capabilities will still be as presented in the Canon regardless as to what sort of institution they are. We wouldn't expect that Star Fleet has any hidden reserves which they're just reluctant to use, since we know that it's approximately equal in power to the other major MILITARY powers in the quadrant (Klingons, Romulans, pre-Dominion Kardasians, etc.).

Trekkies just argue against Star Fleet being military out of reflex because someone dared to criticize the wonderful Federation. For us the argument of military status is based on pointing out a logical inconsistency. For Trekkies it's about defending an ideology; criticism cannot be tolerated.

[skies]

Oh, but Vympel, everything is relative. That was a solid defense perimeter considering what was available.

Despite the fact that what was being defended was a major, and strategically critical, Dominion communication hub. Let's face it, cracking the encryption on this hub would have been the equivalent of the capture & decryption of the Nazi Enigma machine. Yet somehow both the federation and the Dominion can spare only moderate troop strength and supplies, with no Naval support, after months of fighting over the hub. It was so vital, in fact, that the dominion was still routing communications through, risking giving the Federation a decisive intelligence coup, rather that rerouting communication and destroying the hub from orbit. Both sides should have considered capturing and securing the planet as a major goal, and used troops and ships in force to do so.

[Ritterin Sophia]

Oh, but Vympel, everything is relative. That was a solid defense perimeter considering what was available.

Despite the fact that what was being defended was a major, and strategically critical, Dominion communication hub. Let's face it, cracking the encryption on this hub would have been the equivalent of the capture & decryption of the Nazi Enigma machine. Yet somehow both the federation and the Dominion can spare only moderate troop strength and supplies, with no Naval support, after months of fighting over the hub. It was so vital, in fact, that the dominion was still routing communications through, risking giving the Federation a decisive intelligence coup, rather that rerouting communication and destroying the hub from orbit. Both sides should have considered capturing and securing the planet as a major goal, and used troops and ships in force to do so.

Someones sarcasmometer is broken.

[montypython]

The episode storywriters for Trek are many times stupider than the game designers, who had the sense to have proper combat hardware such as artillery and AFVs in them, not to mention better organization to boot, even if game mechanics suck at times.

[Peptuck]

Oh, but Vympel, everything is relative. That was a solid defense perimeter considering what was available.

Despite the fact that what was being defended was a major, and strategically critical, Dominion communication hub. Let's face it, cracking the encryption on this hub would have been the equivalent of the capture & decryption of the Nazi Enigma machine. Yet somehow both the federation and the Dominion can spare only moderate troop strength and supplies, with no Naval support, after months of fighting over the hub. It was so vital, in fact, that the dominion was still routing communications through, risking giving the Federation a decisive intelligence coup, rather that rerouting communication and destroying the hub from orbit. Both sides should have considered capturing and securing the planet as a major goal, and used troops and ships in force to do so.

Really, there'sd only two possible ways you can interpret this episode: either Starfleet doesn't have the gear, or they're too stupid to use it. Which pretty much amounts to the same thing.

I also find it telling that the Jem'Hadar don't use any of the awesome gear they're supposed to be carrying. I mean, seriously, all they needed to defeat the Feddies was a mortar that could launch chemical shells.

[skies]

The episode storywriters for Trek are many times stupider than the game designers, who had the sense to have proper combat hardware such as artillery and AFVs in them, not to mention better organization to boot, even if game mechanics suck at times.

The writers aren't that stupid, they just have different priorities. They don't want to show a riveting war drama along the lines of Saving Private Ryan. What they want is drama that involves the main characters:

-quickly set up the premise
-drop the characters into a hopeless situation
-introduce a couple of throwaway red-shirts (so you're kept wondering
which one is going to be killed off at the end)
-tease the viewer with the possibility of a main character being killed
-add lots of tension building filler and character interaction
-cue the big battle (a mano-a-mano dust-up of course)
-end with a pithy observation about the futility of war, wonder if it was all worth it, more for the meat grinder, etc...

Honestly, that must be the basic color-by-numbers plot used for half the episodes in Star Trek. The one where they discover a dominion warship, and the one where they crash that same ship in a later episode are pretty much the same. The key thing seems to be to get at least one major character into a fight with practically no equipment or back-up where they have to rely on their wits, and show they have "true grit" John Wayne style. Basically medieval morality tales without the benefit of polish from centuries of rewrites.

[skies]

Really, there'sd only two possible ways you can interpret this episode: either Starfleet doesn't have the gear, or they're too stupid to use it. Which pretty much amounts to the same thing.

Then they must be stupid & not have the equipment because they don't even commit sufficient troops and supplies to secure a key objective. Also, what's with using a dedicated patrol/combat ship to deliver supplies, commander by one of the war's key planners to boot? I mean, they even make a point, in the series, of the fact that the Defiant is a war ship with barely enough room for a small crew, much less cargo room.

I also find it telling that the Jem'Hadar don't use any of the awesome gear they're supposed to be carrying. I mean, seriously, all they needed to defeat the Feddies was a mortar that could launch chemical shells.

Instead they use technologically complicated, yet tactically useless, terror weapons. I mean, is this the best the Jem'Hadar can do? Unreliable mines combined with suicidal frontal charges? I mean, even World War I tactics weren't this stupid.

[brianeyci]

It was either Red or someone else who mentioned the chemical weapons... if they wanted to simulate trench warfare and the terrors of that, there's two main things they missed.

• The machine gun. The Vickers defined the futility of human wave charges. The Federation should have had a modified Type-III at that entrance gun down dozens of Jem'Hadar brutally.
• Gas. The piss on the hankerchiefs, the masks, the refusal to retreat despite overwhelming chance of dying.

Basically they fucked up major with AR-558. They should have had a ship in orbit, ready to beam them all away, and Sisko could have refused to run from a small patch of insignificant land, because of orders. At the end of the episode he starts questioning the futility of war and how terrible it is, how terrible that the Admirals in the back have no idea what's going on.

That's the key: Sisko should have the option to retreat but does not due to orders. Real soldiers almost always have the physical option of retreating, but stay because of their training and duty to their comrades.

The writers aren't that stupid, they just have different priorities

I don't believe the different priorities hypothesis. I think they fucking tried, and it's obvious they did, but they fucking failed. The final battle was not a mano-mano, it was a huge brawl like the way a kid would think of war. The knives, the Jem'Hadar bone trophies... it all reeks of how a teenager would think of war, as something which individual bravery eventually wins the day.

[Darth Wong]

That battle was written based on other movies and TV shows, not books about actual military tactics. The writers had visual imagery in their heads from prior Star Trek episodes and action movies like Die Hard, and they created a battle using that material as a template.

This is one of the reasons I strenuously object to any Trekkies who say that "visuals don't count". Dumb-fucks, don't you people realize that the writers are trying to be consistent with prior visuals? They're quite willing to do so even if it makes the characters look like blithering idiots, which happens often.

[skies]

It was either Red or someone else who mentioned the chemical weapons... if they wanted to simulate trench warfare and the terrors of that, there's two main things they missed.

• The machine gun. The Vickers defined the futility of human wave charges. The Federation should have had a modified Type-III at that entrance gun down dozens of Jem'Hadar brutally.
• Gas. The piss on the hankerchiefs, the masks, the refusal to retreat despite overwhelming chance of dying.

Basically they fucked up major with AR-558. They should have had a ship in orbit, ready to beam them all away, and Sisko could have refused to run from a small patch of insignificant land, because of orders. At the end of the episode he starts questioning the futility of war and how terrible it is, how terrible that the Admirals in the back have no idea what's going on.

That's the key: Sisko should have the option to retreat but does not due to orders. Real soldiers almost always have the physical option of retreating, but stay because of their training and duty to their comrades.

The writers aren't that stupid, they just have different priorities

I don't believe the different priorities hypothesis. I think they fucking tried, and it's obvious they did, but they fucking failed. The final battle was not a mano-mano, it was a huge brawl like the way a kid would think of war. The knives, the Jem'Hadar bone trophies... it all reeks of how a teenager would think of war, as something which individual bravery eventually wins the day.

Your point about modifying phasor rifles is interesting, especially in light of the fact that Feddies seem to able to modify anything they could get their hands on. Hell, they once used hand phasers to make a fireproof forcefield! But the reason the they didn't use real tactics was to get the main characters into what amounts to a bar-room brawl.

[Wyrm]

Trek is like the kicked puppy of the Sci-Fi world. Sure, it's weak by comparison to lots of things in the Sci-Fi world, but SHAME ON YOU for attacking the PUPPY!

Except nobody claimed the kicked puppy can kick your ass.

(Hmm, that might make a good image macro...)

[Coiler]

It's interesting that JMSpock hasn't posted in the ST.com debate thread for some time.

[Darth Wong]

Trek is like the kicked puppy of the Sci-Fi world. Sure, it's weak by comparison to lots of things in the Sci-Fi world, but SHAME ON YOU for attacking the PUPPY!

Except nobody claimed the kicked puppy can kick your ass.

(Hmm, that might make a good image macro...)

I think part of the reason that Trek fans react so vehemently to negative comments about the show is the fact that on some level, they know it's true. They know the show is nothing more than a bland, bloated exercise in fan-service, and has been for a long time. And they know that the military part of the show is the worst part: badly written and badly conceived on a consistent basis. So when you say it, they get very defensive and attack you.

[Connor MacLeod]

For the Trektards, they're always hunting for excuses to dream up fantastic weapons or abilities that we don't actually see in use on the show. Many of their bizarre and dishonest tactics revolve around this singular desire, which is why they so often quote this "not a military organization" rhetoric. The implication is that if they wanted to, they could pull out the hidden can of whoop-ass and crush everyone flat, with all kinds of abilities that they've been keeping under wraps until now (despite fighting the Dominion War).

So basically instead of the Fivers continuing to insist the First Ones and everyone else were "holding back" - its the rabid trekkies insisting that everyone else in trek is"holding back".

[Ted C]

So basically instead of the Fivers continuing to insist the First Ones and everyone else were "holding back" - its the rabid trekkies insisting that everyone else in trek is"holding back".

I guess everyone who's been dealt a poor hand tries the same bluffs.