A way ST forces could win a battle with the Empire

[The Dark]

batsie I think he assumes by having a "beam" type AM weapon he bypass the yield needs for signifigantly harming any larger SW warships. That's why the zeal to prove disruptors as AM weapons, since the confirmed AM weapons (aka Photon Torps) don't have the yield to really do any signifigant harm to SW warships (or at least not the ones that count).

Which wouldn't matter anyway, since regardless of the means of generating energy, it's the yield that matters. A gram of antimatter is no more effective than 42.96 kilotons of TNT.

[Batman]

batsie I think he assumes by having a "beam" type AM weapon he bypass the yield needs for signifigantly harming any larger SW warships. That's why the zeal to prove disruptors as AM weapons, since the confirmed AM weapons (aka Photon Torps) don't have the yield to really do any signifigant harm to SW warships (or at least not the ones that count).

Given that most AQ parties still use torpedoes as their big guns I don't see how disruptors would significantly outgun those, especially as AM only disruptors wouldn't be any more useful against shields than any other kind of charged (or uncharged) particle beam, leave alone the technobabble weapons actually employed.

btw correct me if I'm wrong but isn't there only 2 ships from any of the major ST powers that can fire while cloaked and Chang's BoP was lost and the Scimitar is huge, so neither of those is really small enough to work for this.

Given they'd have to be metres (at best) from the hull for this to work (even if they somehow manage to get through the shields) they'll die inside a second of firing, so I guess them having to decloak to do it doesn't really make much of a difference.
And if you have to call me Batsy, please spell it with a Y?

[Batman]

I would accept canon evidence if there were any. Nothing of what you provided makes disruptors AM weapons, at this point it's pretty damned clear that you have no clue what precedence actually means, and the really funny part is that your approach (unworkable as it happens to be) doesn't even require disruptors to be AM weapons, it just requires the Trek side to have AM weapons, which everybody knows and agrees on.

Except for the video interaction which is inline with a/m matter interaction

Along with every othe SciFi weapon in existence.

Except for riker identifying romulan disruptors as being a/m weapons

Which doesn't exist. But feel free to quote that statement. You know, the one where he actually says so, as opposed to antimatter being mentioned as hanging around as the result of Romulan disruptors having been fired.

And after all your denial in the face of canon evidence

Evidence being canon only means the evidence is canon. It does not mean it's evidence for what you want it to be evidence for.

you are right about one thing, it has been established, by me, that the use of a/m weapons has precedence in ST lore. So why are you still crying about romulan disruptors now they are a moot point to the topic of this thread?

Actually it was established by me, you were still whining about how romulan disruptors were obviously AM weapons when I first pointed out that, um, photon torpedoes, so yeah, we obviously know Trek uses M/AM weapons, and we're still harping on it because a)none of your so-called evidence supports it, b) they cannot possibly be thanks to their observed behaviour being totally incompatible with an AM weapon, and c) you insisting they are when them being is completely irrelevant to your scheme to begin with which merely requires Trek to have AM weapons.

[Jm81]

[quote="Batman"]
We're passing through their magnetic field. Set deflectors to double front.' Rewatch ANH sometime. Also, notice the might in there. I'm presenting it as a possibility, nothing more. You are blithely assuming the fighters went through the shields, when it's entirely possible and in fact pretty likely that at least the bridge shields were down thanks to the Rebel fleet bombardment at the time.
[quote]

"Magnetic field" NOT shield.

[quote="Batman"]
Canon for a Clone Wars era shield, nothing more. Unless you want to argue that all Wars shield behave exactly the same way. Would you like the full list of instances where they don't?
[quote]

Canon for CW is still canon until replaced with another canon event later in the timeline.

[quote="Batman"]
Canon for Clone Wars era shields, nothing more. STILL involves Wars tech fighters. Are you sure you know what canon actually means?
[quote]

Canon for CW is still canon until replaced with another canon event later in the timeline.




Secondly,

Anakin's fighter in the opening scene of Revenge of the Sith. Was it a shielded fighter?

If yes go to #1
If no go to #2

#1
http://www.movie2k.to/Star-Wars-Episode ... 93241.html
Time stamp 5:05 Buz droids, solid objects passed through the fighters shield land on hull and cut into it.

#2
http://www.movie2k.to/Star-Wars-Episode ... 93241.html
Time stamp 6:53 Obi states "Do you notice that the Shields (note plural shield(s)) are still up.
Time stamp 7:01 Anakin destroys the hanger bay shields with fighter weapons
Time stamp 7:10 fighters pass though ship shields and into hanger bay
Time stamp 7:15 - 14:30 The flag ship is not in combat and not being shot at.
Time stamp 14:28 first "thud" of weapon fire
Time stamp 14:51 General Grevious orders the flag ship into combat for the first time

Now you can say that Obi was just talking about the hanger bay shield. But he clearly said plural SHIELDS as in more than one shield and there was only one bay shield they were approaching. Or you could assert that anakin's figher shot only 5 bolts which took down the flag ship of the invasion fleet's shields AND damaged the surface that brought down the fighter bay field. And considering it wasn't 7 minutes after the fighters enter the bay that the ship enters battle there is no reason to believe the shields had been weakened.

Or you can see the simple truth, un-shielded objects can pass through SW shields if they are small enough and moving at the right speed.

[Lord Revan]

batsie I think he assumes by having a "beam" type AM weapon he bypass the yield needs for signifigantly harming any larger SW warships. That's why the zeal to prove disruptors as AM weapons, since the confirmed AM weapons (aka Photon Torps) don't have the yield to really do any signifigant harm to SW warships (or at least not the ones that count).

Given that most AQ parties still use torpedoes as their big guns I don't see how disruptors would significantly outgun those, especially as AM only disruptors wouldn't be any more useful against shields than any other kind of charged (or uncharged) particle beam, leave alone the technobabble weapons actually employed.

well tbh I think he isn't looking for a "realistic" weapon, but a "magical silver bullet" one.
now our "friend" here needs to prove how this theoretical AM weapon of his could SW warship of the size that truly matters (aka star destroyers or bigger), taking out lone corvette or patrol ship while technically might count as a battle would not really harm the imperial war effort at all.

[Jm81]

batsie I think he assumes by having a "beam" type AM weapon he bypass the yield needs for signifigantly harming any larger SW warships. That's why the zeal to prove disruptors as AM weapons, since the confirmed AM weapons (aka Photon Torps) don't have the yield to really do any signifigant harm to SW warships (or at least not the ones that count).

Given that most AQ parties still use torpedoes as their big guns I don't see how disruptors would significantly outgun those, especially as AM only disruptors wouldn't be any more useful against shields than any other kind of charged (or uncharged) particle beam, leave alone the technobabble weapons actually employed.

well tbh I think he isn't looking for a "realistic" weapon, but a "magical silver bullet" one.
now our "friend" here needs to prove how this theoretical AM weapon of his could SW warship of the size that truly matters (aka star destroyers or bigger), taking out lone corvette or patrol ship while technically might count as a battle would not really harm the imperial war effort at all.

You misunderstand, taking out medium sized pray and running raids is precisely what this is only good for. As I stated in the beginning this tactic couldn't win a war or the war effort.

[Batman]

It's 'prey' and the number of photon torpedoes needed to take down the shields of a measly Correllian Corvette is...a lot, seriously more than what a Galaxy class carries as her standard loadout.
Also, still waiting for you to show that disruptors are AM weapons despite them routinely doing things that are completely incompatible with that?

[The Dark]

#1
http://www.movie2k.to/Star-Wars-Episode ... 93241.html
Time stamp 5:05 Buz droids, solid objects passed through the fighters shield land on hull and cut into it.

Eta-2 fighters don't have shields.

#2
http://www.movie2k.to/Star-Wars-Episode ... 93241.html
Time stamp 6:53 Obi states "Do you notice that the Shields (note plural shield(s)) are still up.
Time stamp 7:01 Anakin destroys the hanger bay shields with fighter weapons
Time stamp 7:10 fighters pass though ship shields and into hanger bay
Time stamp 7:15 - 14:30 The flag ship is not in combat and not being shot at.
Time stamp 14:28 first "thud" of weapon fire
Time stamp 14:51 General Grevious orders the flag ship into combat for the first time

Now you can say that Obi was just talking about the hanger bay shield. But he clearly said plural SHIELDS as in more than one shield and there was only one bay shield they were approaching. Or you could assert that anakin's figher shot only 5 bolts which took down the flag ship of the invasion fleet's shields AND damaged the surface that brought down the fighter bay field. And considering it wasn't 7 minutes after the fighters enter the bay that the ship enters battle there is no reason to believe the shields had been weakened.

Or you can see the simple truth, un-shielded objects can pass through SW shields if they are small enough and moving at the right speed.

Or the ship uses conformal shielding (as has been previously observed), and maintains a separate shield over and around the hangar bay to allow flight operations without dropping the shields over the entire ship. This would conform with Obi-Wan's dialogue (as both the hull shield and the hangar shield are up) and with the phenomena observed. Or Obi-Wan for some reason was observing that both hangar shields were still up (the second one can be observed to still be functioning around the 7:15 mark); if the other one was down, he possibly would have suggested going around and flying through that way. There are multiple possibilities here that don't require ships to pass through shields.

[Jm81]

]Or the ship uses conformal shielding (as has been previously observed), and maintains a separate shield over and around the hangar bay to allow flight operations without dropping the shields over the entire ship. This would conform with Obi-Wan's dialogue (as both the hull shield and the hangar shield are up) and with the phenomena observed. Or Obi-Wan for some reason was observing that both hangar shields were still up (the second one can be observed to still be functioning around the 7:15 mark); if the other one was down, he possibly would have suggested going around and flying through that way. There are multiple possibilities here that don't require ships to pass through shields.

I was under the impression that all capital ships in SW use regional shielding. When the A-wings flew through the SSD shields to knock out the dome towers the officer reported just a section of the ship lost shields. So I agree with you. Grivous' ship had a hanger bay shield AND a regional shield 'around the hanger bay' (as you put it) which we can believe less than five fighter shots took down OR this un-shielded fighter passed through. To assert that five shots from anakin's fighter took down this regional shield while aiming at the bay shield would contradict the punishment we know these capital ships can take.

[Lord Revan]

for starters ISD are high medium sized (there's some true giants in the SW arsenal), also get "gap" on the shields is relative to the size of the ship and the CR90 (aka Correlian Corvette aka rebel blockade runner) is only 150 metres long meaning the gap is most likely too small to fit under, pretty much all the separtist craft shown in vids were past the 800 m mark. so either the ship is too big for you weapon to do any real harm or it's too small for your shuttle to fit under the shields.

and that's assuming that it's possible to get past the shield in the first place.

oh and if you want evidence for the shields on CR90 being too tight remember that when the shields on Anakin's starfight came back on they were very close to the hull (maybe finger with from it at most), even if the "gap" stays the same relative to the ship the CR90 is only about 14 times longer then the N-1 Anakin piloted. now a quick and dirty messuarment says that my finger is 2.5 cm wide, now multiply that by 14 gives 35 cm or little over a foot (30 cm= 1ft), now while I can't find any exact height stats for federation shuttles (from a relible source anyway) they seem to be at least 1 m tall probably closer to 2 m so they most certainly would be too tall to fit under the shields of a CR90. you'd need a ship at least as big as a Nebulon-b frigate for a shuttle to fit under and that starts to be too well armored.

[Stark]

I was going to say you ruined the funniest thread on SDN by posting without being Batman, but you managed to add to the joke anyway.

And the guy specifically used the example of A-wings in Executor's superstructure, so he's saying you can fly around shields without bringing the whole system down (which doesn't seem too outrageous to me). Unless you think Executor's entire superstructure was unshielded at this moment. :V

[Jm81]

for starters ISD are high medium sized (there's some true giants in the SW arsenal), also get "gap" on the shields is relative to the size of the ship and the CR90 (aka Correlian Corvette aka rebel blockade runner) is only 150 metres long meaning the gap is most likely too small to fit under, pretty much all the separtist craft shown in vids were past the 800 m mark. so either the ship is too big for you weapon to do any real harm or it's too small for your shuttle to fit under the shields.

and that's assuming that it's possible to get past the shield in the first place.

oh and if you want evidence for the shields on CR90 being too tight remember that when the shields on Anakin's starfight came back on they were very close to the hull (maybe finger with from it at most), even if the "gap" stays the same relative to the ship the CR90 is only about 14 times longer then the N-1 Anakin piloted. now a quick and dirty messuarment says that my finger is 2.5 cm wide, now multiply that by 14 gives 35 cm or little over a foot (30 cm= 1ft), now while I can't find any exact height stats for federation shuttles (from a relible source anyway) they seem to be at least 1 m tall probably closer to 2 m so they most certainly would be too tall to fit under the shields of a CR90. you'd need a ship at least as big as a Nebulon-b frigate for a shuttle to fit under and that starts to be too well armored.

I always find it interesting with these skin tight shielding why people think you have to be all in or all out. If it is true and a small ship at the right speed can't pass through shielding than at sever points in time it is half in and half out as it progresses through. So what happens if it halts half in and half out? Either something or nothing will happen of which we have no knowledge. Just saying, it is an unfounded assumption that you have to be all in or all out.

[Jm81]

erm can pass ^^^^^

drat on that time limit for editing typos

[Jedipilot24]

This whole debate is utterly pointless because cloaked ST ships could never get close enough for it to matter. The Empire has CGT sensors that detect cloaked ships, and since the ST cloaking device only works with shields down, an Imperial Star Destroyer could and would simply blow apart any ST ship dumb enough to approach while cloaked.

[Crazedwraith]

CGT sensors are extremely rare. As in two availble in the entire galaxy rare. They work on Star Wars cloaks, there's no proof they would work on ST cloaks.

Even if they were common and did work on ST cloaks there's no reason to believe that it would be constantly on and searching for cloaked threats.

[Ted C]

No it's not. It's a technobabble weapon that leaves behind miniscule trace amounts of antimatter.

Again you are reaching for some convoluted explanation to avoid the obvious. Data stated "extremely high levels" of antimatter were in the area. Riker honed in on that and stated... Romulan disruptors. Now I guess we could paint some technobabble-isk picture of how this is some biproduct and we would look as dumb as if we went to a crime scene and said OMG bullets are lodged in the walls of a house. They must be either be shooting these bullets OR have some [technobabble] weapon that leaves bullets as a biproduct!

Yes romulan disruptors are a/m weapons.

"Extremely high" is a relative term. The background level of AM in space should be virtually zero. In every use we've seen, disruptors behave much like phasers, not anti-matter beams. We don't see nuclear explosions when a disruptor beam connects with a bare hull (for starship weapons) or a body (for hand weapons).

Disruptors can cause matter to "disintegrate" in a flash, much like phasers sometimes do, indicating that they have a similar chain reaction effect on matter. Anti-particles might well be decay products of this reaction, which would explain "extremely high levels" of anti-matter lingering in space where disruptors were recently used much better than assuming that disruptors are anti-particle beams when they don't behave like anti-particle beams.

[Jm81]

This whole debate is utterly pointless because cloaked ST ships could never get close enough for it to matter. The Empire has CGT sensors that detect cloaked ships, and since the ST cloaking device only works with shields down, an Imperial Star Destroyer could and would simply blow apart any ST ship dumb enough to approach while cloaked.

Canon evidence that SW ships can't detect cloaked vessels. Note they only detected it after it came out of cloak.


http://forums.asvs.org/showthread.php/2 ... lds-part-2
Link in first post I believe it is at 12:47 time stamp.

[Jm81]

No it's not. It's a technobabble weapon that leaves behind miniscule trace amounts of antimatter.

Again you are reaching for some convoluted explanation to avoid the obvious. Data stated "extremely high levels" of antimatter were in the area. Riker honed in on that and stated... Romulan disruptors. Now I guess we could paint some technobabble-isk picture of how this is some biproduct and we would look as dumb as if we went to a crime scene and said OMG bullets are lodged in the walls of a house. They must be either be shooting these bullets OR have some [technobabble] weapon that leaves bullets as a biproduct!

Yes romulan disruptors are a/m weapons.

"Extremely high" is a relative term. The background level of AM in space should be virtually zero. In every use we've seen, disruptors behave much like phasers, not anti-matter beams. We don't see nuclear explosions when a disruptor beam connects with a bare hull (for starship weapons) or a body (for hand weapons).

Disruptors can cause matter to "disintegrate" in a flash, much like phasers sometimes do, indicating that they have a similar chain reaction effect on matter. Anti-particles might well be decay products of this reaction, which would explain "extremely high levels" of anti-matter lingering in space where disruptors were recently used much better than assuming that disruptors are anti-particle beams when they don't behave like anti-particle beams.

An a/m weapon doesn't need to be a particle stream. The payload can be delivered in a pulse or even a torpedo much like photon torps.

[Ted C]

An a/m weapon doesn't need to be a particle stream. The payload can be delivered in a pulse or even a torpedo much like photon torps.

I was addressing the claim that disruptors are anti-matter weapons: which they clearly are not, since they don't behave like anti-matter weapons.

Photon torpedoes are matter/anti-matter weapons, but they don't work by just hurling a blob of anti-matter at the opposing hull; the matter and anti-matter are both provided by the weapon, and the energy released from their reaction is what hits the opposing ship.

[Batman]

Somebody doesn't seem to understand that no matter what the method of delivery, disruptors cannot possibly be AM weapons.

[Jm81]

which they clearly are not, since they don't behave like anti-matter weapons.

The point I was making is that there is no "behave like anti-matter weapons." They come in all forms. Pulses, solid streams and yes, as Riker stated, even romulan disruptors.

[Jm81]

Somebody doesn't seem to understand that no matter what the method of delivery, disruptors cannot possibly be AM weapons.

Who cares? You and I are never going to agree on this so move past it. I found other canon evidence that hurling anti-matter as a weapon is used which is all I need. Lets not forget, the topic of this thread is how the st powers can win a battle with the empire. NOT "are romulan disruptors a/m weapons".

And so with canon evidence we know two things:

1. Slow moving small craft and fly through SW shields
2. Feds are capable of using direct a/m (anti-protons) weapons

[Jm81]

More Canon evidence of UNSHIELDED fighters passing through capital ship shields:
http://www.scifights.net/starwarsshields2.mov
Time stamp 10:28 - 10:39 Un-shielded droid tri-fighters attack a shielded capital ship with intent to knock out its shields.
Time stamp 10:43 Capital ship's regional port side deflector shields are down

[Ted C]

which they clearly are not, since they don't behave like anti-matter weapons.

The point I was making is that there is no "behave like anti-matter weapons." They come in all forms. Pulses, solid streams and yes, as Riker stated, even romulan disruptors.

And you are clearly missing the point that anti-matter pulses or streams would cause massive annihilation explosions whenever the beam or pulse connected with unshielded matter, and we never see that happen when disruptors are used. This is painfully obvious in the case of hand-disruptors, in which the beam typically travels through air before reaching its target without causing an explosion the instant the particles leave the weapon's "barrel".

[Lord Revan]

to put a scale to what Ted C said your average human has the mass of roughly 50-80kg depending on build and height. Now remeber that E=MC2 and the square of lightspeed is a damn big number. Also remeber that mere 3kg of matter and anti-matter causes a 64Mt blast at 100% effiency.

now since we know that disruptors like phasers don't leave vapor behind when someone is shot with vaporazition setting if disruptors are AM weapons they must totally annihilate the body, now here comes the important part, the energy from a typical human would be 2-3 Gigatons that's more they any weapon in ST has been show to be able to generate under normal conditions and you're telling me that a hard disruptor could cause that and not even burn the carpet?! Since the expected secondary effects are NOT present therefore disruptors cannot be AM weapons (unless you want to argue that hand disruptors work of totally different princibles in which case prove (and no that line from Riker cannot be used for that)).