I need some debate help

[marsh8472]

Say what? You are sending a ship in that direction anyway. If ship one is not available, you send ship two. What part of that is hard to understand?

nothing about that is hard to understand I just find it funny how you think erasing thousands of officers and raw materials isn't going to affect the empire if you keep doing it indefinitely. They could either wait and just keep erasing star destroyers until the empire's resource supply is depleted sufficently where they just weren't ever able to create before or the krenim weapon can proceed to each planet in star wars and the star destroyers they sent wouldn't even slow it down. From there they could just erase every sentient species that exists on star wars.

If there are signals to be isolated then they must be coming from something, y'know?

outside of normal space-time they couldn't get a lock their crew. The krenim with its warp 6 engine undetected by voyager until they were right on top of them. When voyager left their crewmembers behind they were not able to locate them until tom told them where they were. This tells me that they do not stick out like a sore thumb on sensors. After they send weapons to intercept the time ship and get erased the they would have to visually locate the ship all over again and they would have no memory that the ship or threat even existed.

You've never heard of Occam's Razor, have you.

There are multiple episodes of star trek where people or vessels were in a temporal flux and were still visible. Wouldn't occam's razor suggest that instead of trying to pass yourself off as an expert in temporal science, that you just accept that the ship exists outside of space-time? The krenim has weak shielding where a photon grenade can penetrate it so we know that the temporal field is that is protecting the ship, not its shields. The temporal field protects them from space-time giving them a cure for aging, being able to withstand an assault by 6 ships untouched. There are numerous quotes throughout the episode that say they exist outside of space-time. Every star trek canon source says it exists outside of space-time.

so either:

1) it exists ouside of space-time
2) it's a conspiracy to make everything think it exists outside of space-time but it really doesn't

Occam's Razor says 1) is true. Number 2) is denial of canon facts and since you don't write canon facts your arguments about this matter are irrelevant.

Conceivably, but unlikely. To use your gold watch analogy, it would have to be from a ridiculously small gold mine, because the mass of gold in a watch will hardly be missed in the formation of larger deposits.

When producing mass amounts of something made out of gold, gold deposits from multiple locations are melted down. Erasing a gold watch is going to affect every molecule from where it was originally located in whatever gold mines each gold molecule came from. This isn't going to result in gold mines that have molecules of gold missing in various places since gold mines cannot form with anomalys like that. For the timeline to adjust to where the missing gold molecules are not affecting natural history it's likely to affect the development of the gold in the first place.

Annorax is a nutjob who, whilst claiming he can control the destiny of a single molecule, screws up history time after time when making these changes. I am not going to treat every word that escapes his mouth as gospel, and neither should anyone else with half a brain.

the weapon ship can erase a particle of dust in space if it wanted so of course it can control the destiny of a single molecule. Using the weapon to achieve specific results is difficult. A more broad result is easier. This is why erasing the empire from existence is a broad goal and perfectly achievable. Erasing an organization the senate would have stopped the unity necessary to create a galactic empire.

Oh boy. Relativistic shielding not considered shielding only because nobody uses temporal weapons in Star Wars! Hence why it isn't lumped in with the regular defensive shields.
As for the source's canon status, well... there is an official Lucasfilm policy, and it is still canon. Trust me, you don't want to start arguing about canon here...

To prevent the relativistic passing of time while in hyperspace, starships used stasis fields attuned to hyperdrive levels to keep organic onboard crews or cargoes "in time" with the standard galactic dimension. This is a far cry from immunity to a temporal shockwave.

If temporal weaponry isn't used in star wars then that should be a clue that temporal shielding isn't either. The krenim weapon is a temporal weapon, being unfamiliar with something that's never been encountered in their galaxy's history they're more likely to be dumbfounded by what they see and not have a clue how to protect themselves against it. If we don't want to argue about canon here then we might as well accept that the ship's abilities.

Because the entire attack force will be wiped out / erased, right? With no survivors or distant observers?

because history would have been changed. An altered time-line that the krenim ship had not existed in before. From their point if view it would be as if the ship just appeared out of nowhere.

Oh dear. Look, let's say you want to stop the rise of the Galactic Empire, so you erase Coruscant from history whilst shooting Palpatine / Anakin. Now what? Something will take its place, and in a civilisation as old as that of Star Wars the chances of the Krenim ship even being able to gather the information necessary to work out the result is slim to none. And, given their abysmal record when they HAD that information, chances are they'll wipe out Coruscant only to find the "Galactic Imperium of Mankind" or whatever giving them hell instead.
NOW do you understand what I'm getting at?

Annorax's calculations of erasing the Ram Izad species wouldl result in a 52% percent restoration of the Krenim time line. After the Ram Izad species is erased, obrist reported to him later that the restoration of the krenim timeline was 52%. Which tells me that they have technology to scan continums and know exactly how erasures will affect the galaxy, even if they had known nothing about the timeline's written history before. I ignored this ability because I wanted to be generous but the truth is that with this ability it's only a matter of running a few scans and a few calculated erasures to stop a power like a galactic empire from forming.

On-screen visuals still outweigh dialogue. I don't care where Annorax & co claim they are: they can be clearly seen and interacted with in this universe, their magic shielding notwithstanding.

The visuals show that weapons couldn't not penetrate the ship's temporal field and that the crew have found the cure for aging because they are outside of space-time. I'd call this an argument from ignorance of how technology in the 24th century and how temporal science works. They may have scanners based on temporal science which allow them to scan the vessel and communicate with each other. Harry Kim says the ship exists outside of space-time while they are able see the ship and interact with it. As you said earlier, no point arguing canon here. Laughing at star trek technology and saying that what they do is impossible therefor it's not really happening is not a valid argument.

What makes you think he'll have the time or resources to build another with the Empire kicking down the door? Because unlike the piddly little local conflict that caused him to make the original, any assault from the Empire is going to be swift and unstoppable.

You're assuming that the empire and krenim exist during the same time. They say the star wars movie takes place a "long long time ago" as said in it's release date in the 20th century. The empire actually no longer exists at the time the krenim weapon exists since the rebellion overthrew them. That's why we play out hypothetical scenarios where the krenim ship is in star wars space. If you want to try to say that the star wars ships can just invade star trek then their technology is likely to be destroyed by species 8472 in the end or assimilated and then completly understood by the borg. The borg shields would then be adapted to the blasters sending star wars back with their tail tucked between its legs.

Given that it manages to maintain the flow of time properly around a ship travelling faster than light, I'd say it's pretty damn impressive actually.

If going faster than light causes time travel and this shielding protects them from that then star trek ships undoubted have a similar technology that produces the same effect with their faster than light ships. That technology didn't protect them so no reason to think it would protect star wars.

First off, have we ever seen it erase a planet? Or just the stuff on it? It'd be amusing to see the Krenim erase Coruscant, only to find it appears all over again under a different name below them.
In addition, you assume that it'll be erase itself into the galaxy without being stopped. You don't need to remember the last attack to notice this whatever-it-is getting close you know...

Sure once it erases targets all history of the targets being erased doesn't exist since the target is erased from history. By the time they realize its getting too close to coruscant it would be too late. It's not like they can do anything about it anyway.

If the weapon / ship is "phased out of space-time" then how in God's name can it affect this space-time, huh? If it can fly right through a shield where do we see regular Voyager weaponry flying right through the ship?

the phasers don't penetrate the temporal field we can see that. The temporal field provides a barrior between them and normal space. We never see voyager weaponry fire at the krenim weapon. We see them fire some photons at the krenim weapon after its temporal core was taken offline and that's about it. It looks like whatever tries to penetrate the temporal field is also erased from existence. Given this information, the krenim weapon would just fly through vessels or planets if they wanted to annihilate them too.

Good knowledge of how time works =/= ability to travel in it, although arguably they do just that with SW relativistic shielding. Interesting fact about real physics: FTL travel = time travel. SW relativistic shielding somehow stops this. That implies a pretty good understanding of how time works.

All warp vessels in star trek have the ability to stop time travel while going faster than the speed of light that doesn't make them all temporal experts or provide a natural defense to changes in their timeline.

No, it's quite possible with most of the time travel situations seen in most of Star Trek if you stopped and thought about it for a moment. Not that that seems likely, but what the hey.

"yesterday's enterprise" TNG: enterprise C comes to the future and history is changed, Tasha yar goes back with the enterprise C in the past, tasha yar has a daughter with a romulan in the past and we see her appear in a few episodes in the fixed timeline. This shows that an alternate timeline is not created. Of course it doesn't seem likely. But everything you have said so far doesn't sound likely so far so what the hey

Bwuh?
1. That's nice. There's still no definite homeworld for the humans in Star Wars.
2. I don't give two figs about your scenario. We are discussing a confrontation between Star Wars & Star Trek in which you are claiming the Krenim super-ship has super-duper-no-limits shielding, in spite of a lack of evidence beyond some dubious on-screen dialogue.
3. In Star Wars space to make a confrontation possible? What makes you think it won't be in the Krenim Imperium's backyard, given Star Wars' immense FTL advantage?

1) they colonized a few planets, it's actually unknown how they got there
2) a confrontation isn't possible unless time travel and being able to travel to distant galaxies.
3) species 8472 and borg would wipe them out or some other alien lifeforms I can name that can do the job. We can save that discussion for another time though.

I don't give a toss what the writers' intent was, because that is not how these debates work. I also don't care for your silly argument about ST being fictional. In a debate like this you are supposed to suspend your disbelief and assume that what you are seeing is real. And what I see is - as opposed to nothing, or a 2D silhouette, or whatever - is a big ship that clearly interacts with the material universe, but has treknobabble shielding that makes it immune to conventional Trek weaponry.

There's no question that star trek is riddled with inconsistency. But in the episode the ship is impervious to weapons. This site http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/trekn ... el-voy.htm talks about all sorts of inconsistencies with the technology and recognizes the ship being visible as an anomaly. They speculated that it's a similar principle to the chroniton particles that project the Defiant in DS9's episode "Past Tense"

Every entity that was in a state of temporal flux was never questioned to be simply because it was visible to the naked eye. If anyone needs to suspend their disbelief it's you. There's no point in arguing whether being outside of space-time is possible anymore than there's not point in arguing that warp drive, transporters, universal translators, and time travel are impossible. I suspend my disbelief when they tell me the ship is outside of space-time and any lingering questions don't apply to the validity of the statement except when you think outside the box and know that it's a fictional show.

What else... oh yeah, well done on totally ignoring my point about Star Wars invading the Krenim Imperium whilst Annorax is crawling at snail pace towards the enemy.

annorax would probably prefer they waste their time attacking the star trek galaxy. Once he gets through with wiping out every species in star wars then all of their actions will be erased and any damage they did to star trek undone.

1. The shockwave from the weapon takes time to travel through space. Until it hits you, you're not affected. Star Wars ships, with their hyperdrives etc, could simply outrace it, assuming that in spite of the visuals it is a spherical effect and does not merely affect stuff in a plane ( ). If it is a planar "shockwave", then I'll just remind everyone that space is 3D and that Star Wars has moved planets in the past...

This assumes that the speed of the shockwave is constant. Voyager was 3 weeks away from the Garenor homeworld and saw the shockwave almost right away. The shockwave that erased the zahl from time restored 98% of the krenim restoration of the krenim timeline. Their territory had then expanded to 16,000 light years (5,000 parsecs) or about 1/8th the diameter of the size of the star wars galaxy which implies that the shockwave was able to cover this distance in a short amount of time. That tells me that if the krenim can be so technologically weakened by this weapon so can the galactic empire.

2. The ship has to be practically in orbit of a planet to be in range of it. Range is consequently cr*p.

They said they were within range while in orbit of the planet, which doesn't immediately imply that they just entered their weapons range when he said it. Or they may just want to be near standard orbit of a planet for optimum performance and to see the initial visual impact better. Not that it matters since this would only be a tactical advantage if they had a way to stop the weapon.

3. It clearly has an effect on Voyager when they first meet. Paris notes they're scanning them etc. Oh, and we SEE IT.

due to unknown temporal properties. The known temporal properties are that the ship protected from space-time and are impervious to weapons because of that.

4. The "can't isolate their signals" is in relation to Tom Paris & Chakotay suddenly being beamed to Annorax's ship. Also, if you're making such a big deal about dialogue, it seems funny that Harry Kim said that rather than "we can't penetrate their shields with our teleporters", but whatever.

Their ship has the ability to beam people to their ship outside of space time but anyone from outside of space time does not have the ability to beam there or beam back. Annorax said they were protected form space time but clearly space-time is not protected from them. The krenim ship may not have had their shields up, just their temporal field.

5. Annorax is clearly boasting when talking about the single molecule bit if you watch the scene. People have been known to exaggerate when boasting, and given what a failure this guy is when it comes to buggering around with time, I'd say he exaggerates more than most.

You mean like how star wars fans boast about their capabilties even though we never see it on film? If there was a speck of dust in space or even a single molecule, the temporal weapon can erase it from history. That alone makes his statement valid.

6. The man is clearly obsessed about his wife. Would he even get involved in a ST v SW conflict unless it directly impacted his little region of space and his work? Yes yes, act of Q or whatever gets him involved in this scenario, I'm just talking about Annorax in general.

The ship does not need annorax to run it. They can use another person to pilot the ship.

Here's a quote from the episode:

OBRIST: The Krenim Imperium has been restored to power. Our territory now includes eight hundred and forty nine inhabited worlds spanning five thousand parsecs.

their little region of space is not little even by star wars standards.

7. The final attack is done by using coordinates sent by Tom Paris. Except the ship isn't a part of normal space-time. On screen > dialogue > writers' intent.

They know more about temporal science than you do and figured out a way to interact with the universe while still being protected from it.

8. We see the ships attacking it have their weapons strike some sort of shield. Just like with regular shields in fact.

except we see no turbulence on the ship when they get hit. Tom paris points out that their shields are really weak and can be easily penetrated. If they were attacking their shields we would be able to tell.

9. The ship looked like it held up surprisingly well to Voyager crashing into it. It looked more like Voyager crumpled on its hull than penetrated much. Just throwing this out there, because it seems Tom Paris has been talking out of his arse too with regards to "photon grenades" puncturing the hull.

It doesn't look like it crumbles to me. The debris flying off the ship at the point of collision could be debris of the krenim ship. It looks like voyager flies right though the ship and explodes really although with more surface area in a collision comes more resistance from the hull. I'll just throw that back there to you since it's no good.

10. At the end when the camera zooms in on the datapads Annorax was working on, it's not clear at all what they show (certainly not the ship though - and why should they, if the guy's wife is RIGHT THERE WITH HIM).

it's unclear whether he finishes making the weapon or not. His wife being there didn't stop him from building the weapon before.

Edit: Almost forgot - Voyager's temporal shields stand up a long time in that thing's main weapon. Clearly the power required for the temporal shields wasn't enough on the two ships that were erased (or they messed up something else, whatever).

annorax said "bring the weapon to full power and stand by for multiple incursions" before he erased the ships with the temporal shields almost immediately. When he shot the weapon at voyager he just says to initiate a temporal incursion. It's reasonable to say that voyager wouldn't hold up long against the weapon at full power. Even if it could the temporal shields don't provide immunity to the weapon and does not solve the problem of how to stop the weapon.

That can't possibly be true. The image you posted shows the Krenim Time ship shooting a city, and the city vanishing, and yet the ground underneath it (matter that the city interacted with) still exists. If your statement was true hitting the city would erase the ground undernenath it (and the planet) because the city interacted with the ground.

does it? maybe a layer of the crust that was in physical contact with the objects was erased and new ground formed on top of it with vegetation.

Hell, going by your analogy, hitting a gold watch with this Krenim time beam would erase the gold mine, and the rock around the gold mine, and the rock around that, and around that. It would also erase the nebula that formed that planet, and the start that created that nebula, and so on and so forth.

the rock around the gold mine should be fine since gold isn't necessary for the rock formations. The gold actually comes from the sun as a result of nuclear fusion.

It's this very fact of the weapon somehow erasing a colony, but not the planet it's on, that makes the premise so absurd.

the krenim are trying to restore their timeline. Maybe they configured their weapon to only destroy the objects on the surface of the planet since they still want to planet to exist since the planet existed in the timeline that they're trying to restore.

This raises the following question: if a colony is erased in one timeline, what's to stop another civilisation (or even a different lot of colonists) of colonising that same planet in the alternate timeline? Just like with the Star Destroyer, and with Palpatine

The krenim weapon could target the vegetation to the point where the planet is uninhabitable.

As for the canon debate, just watch him try to deny the figures in the ICS as such

well canon doesn't seem to apply at the forum since they disregard star trek canon of the krenim ship. As they put it "screen > dialogue > writers' intent" and the statistics in ICS would count as writers' intent and what we see on screen puts the figures in doubt with most critics unless you submit to the idea that c-canon is an alternate universe.

Its worth noting that the first time Voyager sees Annorax zap something with his magic time-gun, after the "temporal wave" or whatever hits Voyager, Voyager is still there, in the same physical location as before, and the ship which it was interacting with simply changed into a Krenim ship. Exactly like I predict would happen if you tried erasing Star Destroyers. OR, alternatively, perhaps the krenim ship behaves more like the Omega 13 device from Galaxy Quest, rearranging the states of matter within its radius such that it looks like it effects time, when in fact it doesn't. Of course, that's just speculation, and I freely admit that it would raise as many questions as it solves. But then, the official explanations leave much to be desired anyway, so...

That's not the same thing. The example would apply to the star destroyer idea if the ship had targeted the krenim ship that voyager was talking to and a different krenim ship was there afterward in its place or if the zaul ships that disappeared were replaced by two other ships of a different race. Voyager's same position is due to krenim history not affecting voyager's position in the delta quadrant.

1. It is funny how his Uberweapon is so awesome, Annorax failed in his primary mission for 200 years
2. Chroniton weapons are so weak, a pathetic Intrepid class scout was able to survive 65 days of heavy fighting without temporal shields.
3. Warp is so slow, and the weapon so unpredictable in its effect, the timeship could easily spend eternity trying to erase the 1.75 million member worlds of the Empire
4. With its temporal core offline it was easily destroyed by a low speed impact

1. depends how you define failure. Annorax wanted every blade of grass to be the way it was before before he considered his mission complete. They aren't trying to use the weapon for its constructive ability rather for its destructive ability. The fact that it was never able to restore their timeline shows that its destructive power is more powerful than its constructive power.

2. that implys that chroniton torpedos are as weak as all chroniton weapons which isn't true since the krenim weapon was able to erase 2 ships almost instantly at the same time. The krenim said they wanted to seize voyager before it is too badly damaged rather than destroy it.

3. More like 1.2 million member worlds according to statistical data made by modi. Plus the galactic empire has is comprised of about 1000 sectors. We saw in "year of hell" that erasing a single comet is capable of wiping out all life in at least one sector of space. It could take 1000 years to visit every star system but not eternity. They still have time on their side, literally.

4. In other words if the krenim don't have temporal technology they wouldn't pose a threat. Yea and? They have it and that's not going to change.

[Formless]

nothing about that is hard to understand I just find it funny how you think erasing thousands of officers and raw materials isn't going to affect the empire if you keep doing it indefinitely.

When the Empire has an order of magnitude more planets than the number of people on an individual Star Destroyer, yes, the change is insignificant. Once more you fail to comprehend the scale of the Empire and the importance of trends over events in history. Will you fail to grasp that the Empire isn't going to just sit there and take it when faced with your wank gun? I'm afraid I'm not masochistic enough to find out.

Adeu, I'll let the others tear you asunder.

[marsh8472]

nothing about that is hard to understand I just find it funny how you think erasing thousands of officers and raw materials isn't going to affect the empire if you keep doing it indefinitely.

When the Empire has an order of magnitude more planets than the number of people on an individual Star Destroyer, yes, the change is insignificant. Once more you fail to comprehend the scale of the Empire and the importance of trends over events in history. Will you fail to grasp that the Empire isn't going to just sit there and take it when faced with your wank gun? I'm afraid I'm not masochistic enough to find out.

Adeu, I'll let the others tear you asunder.

That whole post has no validity since the empire has a history of fracturing. The krenim weapon wouldn't just be sitting there targeting star destroyers forever if it wasn't very effective. They would go after planets and astronomical phenomena.

[Formless]

nothing about that is hard to understand I just find it funny how you think erasing thousands of officers and raw materials isn't going to affect the empire if you keep doing it indefinitely.

When the Empire has an order of magnitude more planets than the number of people on an individual Star Destroyer, yes, the change is insignificant. Once more you fail to comprehend the scale of the Empire and the importance of trends over events in history. Will you fail to grasp that the Empire isn't going to just sit there and take it when faced with your wank gun? I'm afraid I'm not masochistic enough to find out.

Adeu, I'll let the others tear you asunder.

That whole post has no validity since the empire has a history of fracturing. The krenim weapon wouldn't just be sitting there targeting star destroyers forever if it wasn't very effective. They would go after planets and astronomical phenomena.

A thousand years of peace under the Republic counts as a history of fracturing?

Christ what tool.

[marsh8472]

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sith_Empire

The sith empire fragmented in 4,990 BBY and was dissolved altogether in 3,623 BBY. There was a civil war after King Adas died, a 20 year Jedi Civil War, the Galactic Civil War. If the empire was as stable as you are trying to say these things wouldn't have happened.

[Azron_Stoma]

"4,990 BBY and was dissolved altogether in 3,623 BBY"

In other words it took around 1,367 years for it to finally collapse, yeah it was REALLY unstable.

The jedi civil war, galactic civil war and clone wars lasted for about 50 years combined
with hundreds of years peace in between. Only the GCW and the Clone Wars were all that close together at being 15-20 years apart. The rest were hundreds, if not thousands of years apart.

Bet you wish you could hack everyone's account that didn't agree with you, (IE the whole site) Then use them to post "concessions", telling you that they were wrong and how they were so foolish to ever question you...

[marsh8472]

In other words it took around 1,367 years for it to finally collapse, yeah it was REALLY unstable.

The jedi civil war, galactic civil war and clone wars lasted for about 50 years combined
with hundreds of years peace in between. Only the GCW and the Clone Wars were all that close together at being 15-20 years apart. The rest were hundreds, if not thousands of years apart.

it's unstable enough. With the time the krenim weapon may take to destroy the empire they may destroy themselves before the krenim weapon gets a chance to.

Bet you wish you could hack everyone's account that didn't agree with you, (IE the whole site) Then use them to post "concessions", telling you that they were wrong and how they were so foolish to ever question you...

I'm satisfied with just banning you from my youtube video while using ghost accounts there to make those concessions .

[Teleros]

nothing about that is hard to understand I just find it funny how you think erasing thousands of officers and raw materials isn't going to affect the empire if you keep doing it indefinitely.

Thousands? Nah. Billions? Now you're talking. You have proof that Annorax' mutinous crew will stay around for even a million or so Star Destroyers? Instead of throwing in the towel and fixing the temporal core with a large hammer? Because they were getting bored after, y'know, just 200 years. How long do you think it'll take them to deal with all those Star Destroyers?

outside of normal space-time they couldn't get a lock their crew. The krenim with its warp 6 engine undetected by voyager until they were right on top of them. When voyager left their crewmembers behind they were not able to locate them until tom told them where they were. This tells me that they do not stick out like a sore thumb on sensors. After they send weapons to intercept the time ship and get erased the they would have to visually locate the ship all over again and they would have no memory that the ship or threat even existed.

1. Voyager had been through a particularly nasty fight when the Krenim ship appeared above them. Damage to sensors, Janeway not being on the bridge etc (or hell, the other watch being on duty) can all explain any delay. You also (deliberately?) miss out the fact that Janeway can sense it coming close because Voyager vibrates.
2. You don't need to "stick out like a sore thumb" on sensors to be picked up on them. Pluto is extremely hard to get images of with our current telescopes... but we still can.

There are multiple episodes of star trek where people or vessels were in a temporal flux and were still visible. Wouldn't occam's razor suggest that instead of trying to pass yourself off as an expert in temporal science, that you just accept that the ship exists outside of space-time? The krenim has weak shielding where a photon grenade can penetrate it so we know that the temporal field is that is protecting the ship, not its shields. The temporal field protects them from space-time giving them a cure for aging, being able to withstand an assault by 6 ships untouched. There are numerous quotes throughout the episode that say they exist outside of space-time. Every star trek canon source says it exists outside of space-time.

Leaving aside the cure for ageing nonsense as it's irrelevant to this debate beyond the fact that the crew will live long enough, Tom Paris states that the "shields are incredibly weak... a photon grenade could penetrate the hull". We later see Voyager detonate against that hull, and very little damage to the Krenim ship. So if we're going by your retarded worship of dialogue over everything else, then either Tom Paris is talking out of his arse or the Krenim he was talking to is. Or photon grenades pack more punch that multi-million-ton ship slamming into the side of you. As for the various canon sources... yeah I couldn't really care what they claim, unless they're engaged in a similar level of technical analysis to what goes on here. Which they're not.

When producing mass amounts of something made out of gold, gold deposits from multiple locations are melted down. Erasing a gold watch is going to affect every molecule from where it was originally located in whatever gold mines each gold molecule came from. This isn't going to result in gold mines that have molecules of gold missing in various places since gold mines cannot form with anomalys like that. For the timeline to adjust to where the missing gold molecules are not affecting natural history it's likely to affect the development of the gold in the first place.

Oh no! Gold atom (not molecule...) #11562735763 is missing! Oh wait, it just means that #11562735764 is pushed to where it was by the tectonic forces moving stuff around. Hey presto, gold mine still appears, just with less gold in it than before. BTW, is it just gold mines that can't form with anomalies like that, or do planets cease to exist as well? Solar systems? How far back along the history of those now-erased gold atoms are you willing to go?

the weapon ship can erase a particle of dust in space if it wanted so of course it can control the destiny of a single molecule.

No you idiot, if you want me to accept that the ship can do something we NEVER SEE IT DO, like control the destiny of 1 molecule, then you've got to prove to me that Annorax was not just an exaggerating, boastful nutjob.

This is why erasing the empire from existence is a broad goal and perfectly achievable. Erasing an organization the senate would have stopped the unity necessary to create a galactic empire.

As Annorax found out with his much smaller-scale calculations, as often as not you'll often be erasing one thing and replacing it with another. Often worse than the first time around.

If temporal weaponry isn't used in star wars then that should be a clue that temporal shielding isn't either.

Urgh. Just because weapons with temporal effects don't exist it does not follow that there isn't another need for defence against temporal effects... like the time dilation involved in relativistic travel, or the time travel involved in FTL flight. To use a more modern example, if people started toting particle beams on the battlefield tomorrow, they would still find an Abrams tank a tough target to crack, not because the US equips its tanks with fancy anti-particle beam defences or whatever, but because its existing defences just happen to work well against them too. Now, given what SW relativistic shielding must be capable of with regard to being affected by time, it seems likely that a weapon that functions based on temporal effects will, at the very least, be interfered with, no?

Annorax's calculations of erasing the Ram Izad species wouldl result in a 52% percent restoration of the Krenim time line. After the Ram Izad species is erased, obrist reported to him later that the restoration of the krenim timeline was 52%. Which tells me that they have technology to scan continums and know exactly how erasures will affect the galaxy, even if they had known nothing about the timeline's written history before. I ignored this ability because I wanted to be generous but the truth is that with this ability it's only a matter of running a few scans and a few calculated erasures to stop a power like a galactic empire from forming.

Jesus. Does it not occur to you that not only was Annorax working in a tiny area of the galaxy, but that he also had plenty of information on the region after spending 200 years flitting about in it? Where's he going to get all this vital data on the SW galaxy and its history from? Do we have any idea of whether or not his computers can handle the orders of magnitude more complex calculations required to successfully alter a pan-galactic civilisation that's tens of thousands of years old?

The visuals show that weapons couldn't not penetrate the ship's temporal field and that the crew have found the cure for aging because they are outside of space-time. I'd call this an argument from ignorance of how technology in the 24th century and how temporal science works. They may have scanners based on temporal science which allow them to scan the vessel and communicate with each other. Harry Kim says the ship exists outside of space-time while they are able see the ship and interact with it. As you said earlier, no point arguing canon here. Laughing at star trek technology and saying that what they do is impossible therefor it's not really happening is not a valid argument.

Stop trying to put words in my mouth, nobody's saying that the Krenim ship is impossible and thus irrelevant or whatever. What I'm saying is that there is a flaw in the presentation of the Krenim ship, and that the most sensible means of analysing this flaw is to assume that the visuals override the dialogue. Writers' intent, if you read the main site, is pretty much never taken into account here.

You're assuming that the empire and krenim exist during the same time. They say the star wars movie takes place a "long long time ago" as said in it's release date in the 20th century. The empire actually no longer exists at the time the krenim weapon exists since the rebellion overthrew them. That's why we play out hypothetical scenarios where the krenim ship is in star wars space. If you want to try to say that the star wars ships can just invade star trek then their technology is likely to be destroyed by species 8472 in the end or assimilated and then completly understood by the borg. The borg shields would then be adapted to the blasters sending star wars back with their tail tucked between its legs.

It's a versus scenario. If I want to pit a company of HALO Spartans against Alexander the Great's army, then I can do so. It just happens.
As for Species 8472... they pretty much left our galaxy alone after Voyager did a deal with them as I recall, their weaponry is almost universally Trek standard fare (bar their special planet-busting ships, which actually appear to use a chain reaction weapon to do the job), and they'll be stomped all over by the Empire, although if you're really, really lucky they might manage to blow something up with the planet-busters. As for the Borg...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBSOhODoch0 2:58. They get wiped out inside of a week, unless they manage to scatter all over the galaxy via transwarp and go into hiding. Go read the main site if you don't understand how hopelessly outclassed the regular Star Trek factions are against Star Wars.

If going faster than light causes time travel and this shielding protects them from that then star trek ships undoubted have a similar technology that produces the same effect with their faster than light ships. That technology didn't protect them so no reason to think it would protect star wars.

Proof?

the phasers don't penetrate the temporal field we can see that. The temporal field provides a barrior between them and normal space. We never see voyager weaponry fire at the krenim weapon. We see them fire some photons at the krenim weapon after its temporal core was taken offline and that's about it. It looks like whatever tries to penetrate the temporal field is also erased from existence. Given this information, the krenim weapon would just fly through vessels or planets if they wanted to annihilate them too.

Congratulations on missing my point completely. The phasers etc fired at the Krenim ship hit something - ie, the magic shielding. Meanwhile, light reflects off the ship, it makes Voyager vibrate when it's close, sensors can pick it up... yeah, that really looks like it's not interacting with the normal universe. If I can see it, I can also pump it full of turbolaser shots.

All warp vessels in star trek have the ability to stop time travel while going faster than the speed of light that doesn't make them all temporal experts or provide a natural defense to changes in their timeline.

Perhaps it does... do we ever see the effects of the Krenim weapon on a ship that's travelling at warp speed?

This shows that an alternate timeline is not created.

Or that things were switched to a new parallel universe. As I recall, Guinan somehow knew things had changed in that episode, which if it's regular time travel as about as believeable as, well... you know what, it's just not, given that her own sodding history would have changed too.

The shielding implies that his ship is out of our space-time, nevertheless it is still visible. Maybe its principle is similar to the chroniton particles that protect the Defiant in DS9 "Past Tense".

The author of that page at least doesn't make your mistake of assuming magic no-limits protection. Also note that the Defiant's cloaking field hardly removes it from regular space-time.

annorax would probably prefer they waste their time attacking the star trek galaxy. Once he gets through with wiping out every species in star wars then all of their actions will be erased and any damage they did to star trek undone.

Urgh. Do you honestly believe he invented his ship in a complete and utter vacuum? Obviously the Krenim Imperium has a good understanding of how temporal technology works, and if the Empire gets it hands on that then Annorax may just find Star Destroyers launching all sorts of funky stuff at him or laughing at his attempts to erase them.

They said they were within range while in orbit of the planet, which doesn't immediately imply that they just entered their weapons range when he said it. Or they may just want to be near standard orbit of a planet for optimum performance and to see the initial visual impact better.

I really doubt that after 200 years Annorax cares what the planet looks like before and after. If you can fire from a few lightseconds out and record data from there, you do so. If not, you get in closer to where you can. Obviously, Annorax couldn't do the former, so he had to get closer.

due to unknown temporal properties. The known temporal properties are that the ship protected from space-time and are impervious to weapons because of that.

So... let me get this straight. Dialogue says that the ship exists outside of space-time, but for the purposes of...
1. Being visible
2. Transporting Chakotay & Tom Paris
3. Tom Paris reporting that they're being scanned
4. Enemy weapons visibly impacting the magic shielding
5. Making Voyager vibrate when it's close
6. Harry Kim trying to lock onto transporter signals from the ship
... it just magically works anyway. Riiiight.

You mean like how star wars fans boast about their capabilties even though we never see it on film?

Maybe I just spend too much time at sites like these, were people who say the Galactic Empire can beat the Culture get universally ridiculed. But whatever. If you don't like the fact that the Death Star requires at least 1e38J to blow up Alderaan the way it did, take it up with George Lucas.

The ship does not need annorax to run it. They can use another person to pilot the ship.

Uh-huh. Because we clearly saw how weak Annorax was in charge. Obrist aided Tom Paris to disable the core, then did sod all when Annorax took command again and continued the fight. The rest of the crew did sod all too.

their little region of space is not little even by star wars standards.

Except that the moron used a two-dimensional term for three dimensions. 5,000 CUBIC parsecs is, well, small. 50x10x10 parsecs, for example.

except we see no turbulence on the ship when they get hit.

So unlike Federation ships the Krenim have proper shock absorbers and inertial dampeners installed. And are on a comparatively much larger ship (you know, more mass to shake around = less shaking from a given amount of force?). Woop-dee-doo.

Tom paris points out that their shields are really weak and can be easily penetrated. If they were attacking their shields we would be able to tell.

My point wasn't that the magic space-time shielding was down, but that it appeared very much like regular shielding.

It doesn't look like it crumbles to me. The debris flying off the ship at the point of collision could be debris of the krenim ship. It looks like voyager flies right though the ship and explodes really although with more surface area in a collision comes more resistance from the hull. I'll just throw that back there to you since it's no good.

Just so you know, I was complementing the Krenim ship on its armour BTW . Anyway...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRRK6TvlE1s about 4:07 onwards. By ~4:46 it looks like it's suffered some damage to the big spikes at the front, but given that Voyager just blew itself up crashing into it, I think it held up rather well. So much for photon grenades.

annorax said "bring the weapon to full power and stand by for multiple incursions" before he erased the ships with the temporal shields almost immediately. When he shot the weapon at voyager he just says to initiate a temporal incursion. It's reasonable to say that voyager wouldn't hold up long against the weapon at full power. Even if it could the temporal shields don't provide immunity to the weapon and does not solve the problem of how to stop the weapon.

That's why I said the erased ships didn't have enough power in their shields. Star Wars ships however have access to many orders of magnitude more power for their systems.

does it? maybe a layer of the crust that was in physical contact with the objects was erased and new ground formed on top of it with vegetation.

According to your retarded gold watch / mine scenario, that should probably have been enough to stop the whole planet from forming.

well canon doesn't seem to apply at the forum since they disregard star trek canon of the krenim ship. As they put it "screen > dialogue > writers' intent" and the statistics in ICS would count as writers' intent and what we see on screen puts the figures in doubt with most critics unless you submit to the idea that c-canon is an alternate universe.

Well done for totally not understanding. Time to spell it out.
1. Star Wars canon has 4 levels, the highest being the films.
2. If lower level material doesn't contradict higher level canon, then it's generally canon too, with perhaps a few exceptions.
3. The ICS books do not contradict the films.
4. To use an example of "screen > dialogue > writers' intent", remember the Romulan / Cardassian bombardment of the Founders' homeworld? We simply do not see explosions big enough to account for the whole "loads of the crust is gone" line, although given Star Trek's chain reaction phasers and such I could at least understand how it might happen through other means. However, to go from that line to assuming that the combined fleet must be either bigger than anything seen before or since, or armed with multi-gigaton weapons not seen anywhere else, is self-evidently absurd.

The sith empire fragmented in 4,990 BBY and was dissolved altogether in 3,623 BBY. There was a civil war after King Adas died, a 20 year Jedi Civil War, the Galactic Civil War. If the empire was as stable as you are trying to say these things wouldn't have happened.

All of which is ancient history to the Star Wars saga, unless the civil war you're referring to is the one in the prequels. Which still doesn't get you off the hook for totally failing to comprehend the scale of the Galactic Empire, and indeed the Republic before it.


If you want to go find useable no-limits stuff for use against Star Wars, try factions like the Xeelee, Culture or the Skylarkers. At least with those three we won't have to listen to you yelling "dialogue over visuals, nyah nyah nyah I win" every post you make.

[marsh8472]

Thousands? Nah. Billions? Now you're talking. You have proof that Annorax' mutinous crew will stay around for even a million or so Star Destroyers? Instead of throwing in the towel and fixing the temporal core with a large hammer? Because they were getting bored after, y'know, just 200 years. How long do you think it'll take them to deal with all those Star Destroyers?

This is only when accepting the one ship replaces another and one planet replaces another premise. Sure they can just run their ship on automatic pilot and program it to shot anything that moves or shows signs of life. Personally I think the empire will be gone after just a few well planed temporal erasures.

1. Voyager had been through a particularly nasty fight when the Krenim ship appeared above them. Damage to sensors, Janeway not being on the bridge etc (or hell, the other watch being on duty) can all explain any delay. You also (deliberately?) miss out the fact that Janeway can sense it coming close because Voyager vibrates.

Janeway's entire fleet couldn't get tom and Chakotay while they were by the weapon. The weapon is outside of space-time, that's the most obvious reason why they couldn't get a lock on them. Voyager vibrating doesn't help much since anyone with eyes can see the ship coming at that point.

Leaving aside the cure for ageing nonsense as it's irrelevant to this debate beyond the fact that the crew will live long enough, Tom Paris states that the "shields are incredibly weak... a photon grenade could penetrate the hull". We later see Voyager detonate against that hull, and very little damage to the Krenim ship. So if we're going by your retarded worship of dialogue over everything else, then either Tom Paris is talking out of his arse or the Krenim he was talking to is. Or photon grenades pack more punch that multi-million-ton ship slamming into the side of you. As for the various canon sources... yeah I couldn't really care what they claim, unless they're engaged in a similar level of technical analysis to what goes on here. Which they're not.

I had no doubt you would ignore the agelessness of the crew. If you're trying to argue that the ship is really not outside of space-time then you would need to explain this part away first. Already addressed this in the last post. Voyager penetrates the krenim ship when they collide with it and the krenim ship is destroyed. Voyager is moving at a slower speed and you don't see the krenim's shields stop voyager so paris was right about the conventional shields being weak. We don't see the ship as its being attacked to tell whether photons are going penetrating it or not.

Oh no! Gold atom (not molecule...) #11562735763 is missing! Oh wait, it just means that #11562735764 is pushed to where it was by the tectonic forces moving stuff around. Hey presto, gold mine still appears, just with less gold in it than before. BTW, is it just gold mines that can't form with anomalies like that, or do planets cease to exist as well? Solar systems? How far back along the history of those now-erased gold atoms are you willing to go?

Well we know erasing a comet erased all the fragments of the comet that made its way to planets and caused life to evolve even though the fragments were no longer attached to the comet. There is no way of intuitively telling how erasing the history of atoms can change history. Luckily the krenim weapon has temporal calculations that can compute what will happen before they do it. The only exception to this is with voyager because they were causing a level 9 disruption and changes won't affect them with their temporal shields to protect them. Yet we saw them able to make temporal calculations in newly created timelines they knew nothing about.

No you idiot, if you want me to accept that the ship can do something we NEVER SEE IT DO, like control the destiny of 1 molecule, then you've got to prove to me that Annorax was not just an exaggerating, boastful nutjob.

no you fucktard, if a molecule was floating in space the krenim's weapon can shoot it and erase it from history thus controlling the destiny of a single molecule. Perhaps they have the ability to adjust to narrow the length of a beam to that of a molecule so that molecule erasures of all sorts can be done but they don't show this on the episode.

As Annorax found out with his much smaller-scale calculations, as often as not you'll often be erasing one thing and replacing it with another. Often worse than the first time around.

even if it happened often it only has to not happen once, and they got all the time in the world to wait for that to happen.

Urgh. Just because weapons with temporal effects don't exist it does not follow that there isn't another need for defence against temporal effects... like the time dilation involved in relativistic travel, or the time travel involved in FTL flight. To use a more modern example, if people started toting particle beams on the battlefield tomorrow, they would still find an Abrams tank a tough target to crack, not because the US equips its tanks with fancy anti-particle beam defences or whatever, but because its existing defences just happen to work well against them too. Now, given what SW relativistic shielding must be capable of with regard to being affected by time, it seems likely that a weapon that functions based on temporal effects will, at the very least, be interfered with, no?

no, I already sufficently shown that the relativistic shielding won't protect them... got anything else? no? oh ok I thought not.

Jesus. Does it not occur to you that not only was Annorax working in a tiny area of the galaxy, but that he also had plenty of information on the region after spending 200 years flitting about in it? Where's he going to get all this vital data on the SW galaxy and its history from? Do we have any idea of whether or not his computers can handle the orders of magnitude more complex calculations required to successfully alter a pan-galactic civilisation that's tens of thousands of years old?

But he wouldn't have the cultural knowledge of the people that would be created and destroyed and all the historic details being rewritten. We just have to accept that the krenim's technology has this the ability to aquire this data no matter what it is. The evidence suggests this.

Stop trying to put words in my mouth, nobody's saying that the Krenim ship is impossible and thus irrelevant or whatever. What I'm saying is that there is a flaw in the presentation of the Krenim ship, and that the most sensible means of analysing this flaw is to assume that the visuals override the dialogue. Writers' intent, if you read the main site, is pretty much never taken into account here.

What you're trying to do is state that the ship is vulnerable to weapons because it is visible and can be scanned. There were things in star trek before that were in temporal flux and were still visible. The temporal agent danials had a gadget her wore on his hand that allowed him to walk through matter and yet sound waves were still able to vibrate the hairs in his ears allowing him to still hear what the crew was saying and photons were able to make contact with the rods and cones in his eyeballs allowing him to see. Yet he's able to still pass through matter.

The visuals support the weapons capabilities in many areas. The other areas you find to contradict the weapons abilities can be attributed to more ignorance of the ship's abilities. In the case of contradicting visual evidence of the ship's abilities we can turn to dialog for the final ruling. Yes,the ship is outside of space-time and impervious to weapons. Deal with it heh. You'll have to show me the site where it says to disregard writer's intent and other star trek canon sources.

As for Species 8472... they pretty much left our galaxy alone after Voyager did a deal with them as I recall, their weaponry is almost universally Trek standard fare (bar their special planet-busting ships, which actually appear to use a chain reaction weapon to do the job), and they'll be stomped all over by the Empire, although if you're really, really lucky they might manage to blow something up with the planet-busters. As for the Borg...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBSOhODoch0 2:58. They get wiped out inside of a week, unless they manage to scatter all over the galaxy via transwarp and go into hiding. Go read the main site if you don't understand how hopelessly outclassed the regular Star Trek factions are against Star Wars.

what kind of chain-reaction weapon can destroy a planet in a matter of seconds? Unless the planet is made of anti-matter, being able to prove this would be difficult. Since it's never been proven that species 8472's weapons are chain reaction based there's no reason to think it's not just raw power. Chain reaction weapons generally don't need much power either, if this were the case then they wouldn't need the combine the power of 8 bioships to do the job.

Proof?

time-dilation caused by faster than light travel. http://sheol.org/throopw/tachyon-pistols.html there's a proof of why faster than light travel causes changes in the speed of time. If star wars had this problem with their propulsion then star trek must have had the problem to and this ability did not save them from being affected by the temporal shockwave.

Congratulations on missing my point completely. The phasers etc fired at the Krenim ship hit something - ie, the magic shielding. Meanwhile, light reflects off the ship, it makes Voyager vibrate when it's close, sensors can pick it up... yeah, that really looks like it's not interacting with the normal universe. If I can see it, I can also pump it full of turbolaser shots.

That's the result of temporal properties of the ship and the ship has a temporal disruption which causes it to affect things nearby. Okay let's say you're right and since light and scans can penetrate the temporal field then a phaser can too. Oh wait, it didn't penetrate the temporal field in that episode did it? ahh well it was a good guess. Plus the crew don't age. All visual evidence that disproves your hypothesis before even having to fall back on the dialog and writer's intent as the last determining factors.

Perhaps it does... do we ever see the effects of the Krenim weapon on a ship that's travelling at warp speed?

yes, in 5000 parsecs of krenim space it's reasonable to assume that there's at least one krenim ship traveling at warp in their space. Yet when the krenim imperium got erased there were no krenim vessels left here's the proof:

JANEWAY: The Krenim Imperium. Over two hundred star systems, nine hundred planets, thousands of warp-capable vessels, and now, after the shock wave everything seems to have changed. Run a new scan.
SEVEN: Spatial grid zero zero five.
JANEWAY: Same space, different configuration, exactly as Chakotay said. The Imperium appears to have been reduced to a few planets, and a smattering of vessels. It appears that someone, or something has altered history. But why weren't we affected?

Or that things were switched to a new parallel universe. As I recall, Guinan somehow knew things had changed in that episode, which if it's regular time travel as about as believeable as, well... you know what, it's just not, given that her own sodding history would have changed too.

It doesn't have to be believable in reality to be true in fiction. I don't see how guinan knowing about changes in time proves your point either. If she was aware of changes then the changes are more likely to have occured in her timeline and not one that's parallel.

The author of that page at least doesn't make your mistake of assuming magic no-limits protection. Also note that the Defiant's cloaking field hardly removes it from regular space-time.

but it would explain how the ship is visible. An argument from ignorance of properties that allow the ship interaction with the universe while still being protected from space-time.

Urgh. Do you honestly believe he invented his ship in a complete and utter vacuum? Obviously the Krenim Imperium has a good understanding of how temporal technology works, and if the Empire gets it hands on that then Annorax may just find Star Destroyers launching all sorts of funky stuff at him or laughing at his attempts to erase them.

yes but the krenim imperium weren't able to stop annorax from changing their imperium. Plus since you want to deviate from the one ship versus star wars only sceniro, there's nothing to stop annorax from making more krenim weapon ships to protect krenim space.

I really doubt that after 200 years Annorax cares what the planet looks like before and after. If you can fire from a few lightseconds out and record data from there, you do so. If not, you get in closer to where you can. Obviously, Annorax couldn't do the former, so he had to get closer.

if that were true he wouldn't be staring at the viewscreen watching when the planets got erased.

So... let me get this straight. Dialogue says that the ship exists outside of space-time, but for the purposes of...
1. Being visible
2. Transporting Chakotay & Tom Paris
3. Tom Paris reporting that they're being scanned
4. Enemy weapons visibly impacting the magic shielding
5. Making Voyager vibrate when it's close
6. Harry Kim trying to lock onto transporter signals from the ship
... it just magically works anyway. Riiiight.

That's right. The force works from a magic too. Being able to move things with a single thought and see into the future. Sounds pretty supernatural to me. I also find it hilarious that the primary argument against the krenim weapon winning is to deny the canon fact that the krenim exists outside of space-time. Am I supposed to tell star trek fans that you concluded that the krenim weapon won't because you believe it really is in space-time? They'll just see that as a contradiction and conclude you conceded by default. Kinda like me saying that a star destroy can't destroy a shuttle craft because a star destroy's blasters are an illusion.

Maybe I just spend too much time at sites like these, were people who say the Galactic Empire can beat the Culture get universally ridiculed. But whatever. If you don't like the fact that the Death Star requires at least 1e38J to blow up Alderaan the way it did, take it up with George Lucas.

actually it's not proven that the death star isn't a chain reaction weapon too. The chain reaction would be a very fast one but still a chian reaction none-the-less.

Uh-huh. Because we clearly saw how weak Annorax was in charge. Obrist aided Tom Paris to disable the core, then did sod all when Annorax took command again and continued the fight. The rest of the crew did sod all too.

sure it's the krenim vessel against the empire, it doesn't have to be with annorax. You can put holograms or robots on there if it suits you. You can even make the whole process automated.

Except that the moron used a two-dimensional term for three dimensions. 5,000 CUBIC parsecs is, well, small. 50x10x10 parsecs, for example.

They said their territory spans 5000 parsecs meaning that it's 5000 parsecs across. Given how many worlds that are in krenim territory, 50x10x10 parsecs is irrational and shows signs of failing to comprehend basic english.

So unlike Federation ships the Krenim have proper shock absorbers and inertial dampeners installed. And are on a comparatively much larger ship (you know, more mass to shake around = less shaking from a given amount of force?). Woop-dee-doo.

there's no visual evidence, dialog, or information in technical manuals that supports visual shock absorbers.

My point wasn't that the magic space-time shielding was down, but that it appeared very much like regular shielding.

ok temporal field impacts look similar to shield impacts. Since this is the first time you've seen a temporal field I guess you learned something new today.

Just so you know, I was complementing the Krenim ship on its armour BTW . Anyway...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRRK6TvlE1s about 4:07 onwards. By ~4:46 it looks like it's suffered some damage to the big spikes at the front, but given that Voyager just blew itself up crashing into it, I think it held up rather well. So much for photon grenades.

at the expense of krenim crews credibility though. Voyager didn't approach it with enough force to have the same impact of a photon grenade and the wide serface area on both voyager and the krenim ship creates more resistance for penetration.

That's why I said the erased ships didn't have enough power in their shields. Star Wars ships however have access to many orders of magnitude more power for their systems.

doesn't do much good without temporal shields, there's not canon proof that they have the knowledge necessary to build temporal shielding.

According to your retarded gold watch / mine scenario, that should probably have been enough to stop the whole planet from forming.

planets don't need gold to form.

Well done for totally not understanding. Time to spell it out.
1. Star Wars canon has 4 levels, the highest being the films.
2. If lower level material doesn't contradict higher level canon, then it's generally canon too, with perhaps a few exceptions.
3. The ICS books do not contradict the films.
4. To use an example of "screen > dialogue > writers' intent", remember the Romulan / Cardassian bombardment of the Founders' homeworld? We simply do not see explosions big enough to account for the whole "loads of the crust is gone" line, although given Star Trek's chain reaction phasers and such I could at least understand how it might happen through other means. However, to go from that line to assuming that the combined fleet must be either bigger than anything seen before or since, or armed with multi-gigaton weapons not seen anywhere else, is self-evidently absurd.

But you did say you don't care about writer's intent. It's the intent of the writer of ICS of episode 2 that the quad lasers have 200 gigatons of firepower and that is something we just don't see on film. Really if you want to talk about star wars canon we can talk about star trek canon too. All episodes are star trek canon. The canon sites say the ship is outside of space-time and that's all there is to it.

All of which is ancient history to the Star Wars saga, unless the civil war you're referring to is the one in the prequels. Which still doesn't get you off the hook for totally failing to comprehend the scale of the Galactic Empire, and indeed the Republic before it.


If you want to go find useable no-limits stuff for use against Star Wars, try factions like the Xeelee, Culture or the Skylarkers. At least with those three we won't have to listen to you yelling "dialogue over visuals, nyah nyah nyah I win" every post you make.

given that the empire fell from ordinary cultural issues it shouldn't be that difficult to alter history to cause these things to happen. That's how the krenim imperium were reduced to nothing: the zaul overthrew them.

In conclusion: yes the krenim ship is outside of space-time. Your objection is noted.

[Azron_Stoma]

"planets don't need gold to form."

I once again redirect you to tvtropes for "missing the point"

Seriously you're making the same argument on 3 threads, pick one and stick with it.

[Vehrec]

I still don't understand how the hell you're supposed to be able to see a ship if its outside the space time continuum. Or hear it or feel it. Can anyone explain that to me?

[EnterpriseSovereign]

I still don't understand how the hell you're supposed to be able to see a ship if its outside the space time continuum. Or hear it or feel it. Can anyone explain that to me?

It makes about as much sense as when Geordi and Ro were "out of phase" due to some funky Romulan cloak, they could walk through walls, yet they don't fall through the floor, they can still breathe, and they can still see, despite that light passes straight through them from other's point of view

[Darth Ruinus]

does it? maybe a layer of the crust that was in physical contact with the objects was erased and new ground formed on top of it with vegetation.

Right, so you are saying that if something is erased and hit with this time beam, something else simply takes its place.

So you hit a star destroyer with this beam, and another star destroyer takes its place.

the rock around the gold mine should be fine since gold isn't necessary for the rock formations. The gold actually comes from the sun as a result of nuclear fusion.

But the rock interacted with the gold, and that rock interacted with the rock near it, and that rock with the rock near it, and so on and so forth. The entire planet shouldn't be there.

And the gold interacted with the star, so the star should be erased. And the star interacted with the nebula that formed it, which interaced with the other stars that formed that, and the stars that formed that... the entire Universe shouldn't be there if we go by your premise.

the krenim are trying to restore their timeline. Maybe they configured their weapon to only destroy the objects on the surface of the planet since they still want to planet to exist since the planet existed in the timeline that they're trying to restore.

And as others have pointed out, the Krenim ship was failing to do this after 300 years. So why would it work now?

The krenim weapon could target the vegetation to the point where the planet is uninhabitable.

And now the planet is a factory world harvesting the minerals because no one is in the way to complain about trampling all the pretty flowers. The Empire now has one more factory world pumping out material, guns, ships.

[DrStrangelove]

1. depends how you define failure. Annorax wanted every blade of grass to be the way it was before before he considered his mission complete. They aren't trying to use the weapon for its constructive ability rather for its destructive ability. The fact that it was never able to restore their timeline shows that its destructive power is more powerful than its constructive power.

Doesnt change the fact he wasn't able to achieve his mission parameters in 200 years.

2. that implys that chroniton torpedos are as weak as all chroniton weapons which isn't true since the krenim weapon was able to erase 2 ships almost instantly at the same time. The krenim said they wanted to seize voyager before it is too badly damaged rather than destroy it.

Still doesn't change the fact they are weak weapons

3. More like 1.2 million member worlds according to statistical data made by modi. Plus the galactic empire has is comprised of about 1000 sectors. We saw in "year of hell" that erasing a single comet is capable of wiping out all life in at least one sector of space. It could take 1000 years to visit every star system but not eternity. They still have time on their side, literally.

More drivel you could never prove, the essential atlas states the Empire had 1.75 million member worlds and 69 million territories

4. In other words if the krenim don't have temporal technology they wouldn't pose a threat. Yea and? They have it and that's not going to change.

They don't pose a threat with temporal technology, part of the crew was ready to revolt after 200 years, completely erasing a polity as large and complex as the Empire could take millenia or eons, ensuring the crew revolts shuts off the temporal core and waits to be destroyed.

This of course also assumes relativistic shielding doesn't shield SW ships from the temporal weapon, and the Empire doesn't use its eons of time waiting to be completely erased to develop temporal weapons and defenses, and that the ship really is immune to all weapons, and not just to weapons with anemically low ST yields


And basically by using temporal weapons you've admitted normal trek weapons are useless to fight the Empire

[hunter5]

time-dilation caused by faster than light travel. http://sheol.org/throopw/tachyon-pistols.html there's a proof of why faster than light travel causes changes in the speed of time. If star wars had this problem with their propulsion then star trek must have had the problem to and this ability did not save them from being affected by the temporal shockwave.

You moron Trek ships travel at warp. When you travel at warp the ship and a bubble of space surrounding it are still at sub-light speeds it is the space outside the bubble that moves faster than light. Therefore the ship won't have the same time dilation problems as ships in hyperspace.

[marsh8472]

I once again redirect you to tvtropes for "missing the point"

Seriously you're making the same argument on 3 threads, pick one and stick with it.

When annorax erased a zaul colony, the colony was not replaced with another zaul colony. This is evidence that erasing a star destroy won't make another appear in its place. In the episode "Remember Me", things were being erased from history in the universe dr. crusher was in and they weren't instantly replaced. Everyone rationalized the losses in their own logical way. It could be as straightforward as erasing the ships and then the empire finds itself without an army. Your argument is an oversimplification of how the weapon works by thinking that if one ship had not of been constructed they would have constructed some other ship. By failing to consider the entire history of every officer and ship part you neglect any unintended consequences of each erasure.

I still don't understand how the hell you're supposed to be able to see a ship if its outside the space time continuum. Or hear it or feel it. Can anyone explain that to me?

he explains this for me in a condescending sort of way.

It makes about as much sense as when Geordi and Ro were "out of phase" due to some funky Romulan cloak, they could walk through walls, yet they don't fall through the floor, they can still breathe, and they can still see, despite that light passes straight through them from other's point of view

given some contradicting visual evidence of their current state we have to reply on dialog with the support of other visual evidence and if it really is necessary for you to rationalize the properties of contradiction then just rationalize it with the knowledge you don't know about the technology having the ability to supply a few properties that are you find in objects that exist in space-time while still keeping them protected from space-time.

Right, so you are saying that if something is erased and hit with this time beam, something else simply takes its place.

So you hit a star destroyer with this beam, and another star destroyer takes its place.

not saying that at all, surprised you come to that conclusion heh this is some proof that star wars fans are delusional and see only what they want to see. In the best case scenarios a star destroyer or some other ship will take its place. This weapon is called a weapon for a reason though. It's alittle naive to just assume that the consequences of all possible erasures would be positive or negligible. We saw the krenim weapon never had positive results when restoring their own empire until about 200 years after they started and they were deliberately trying to make themselves what they were before. When the weapon is deliberately trying to erase the empire any reasonable person will come to the conclusion that they will succeed, especially with unlimited attempts allowed.

Doesnt change the fact he wasn't able to achieve his mission parameters in 200 years.

just because one mission is difficult to achieve doesn't mean he cannot achieve other missions in less time. For example, if his mission was to make the krenim empire weaker then he did that right away just like he can make the empire on star wars weaker.

Still doesn't change the fact they are weak weapons

sure but we didn't witness how they dealt with every encounter with the krenim. In their first encounter, their shield strength was almost gone and they had taken heavy damage with crewmen dead. Speaking of not changing facts, this doesn't change the fact that we aren't even talking about standard krenim torpedos against the empire but rather the krenim temporal weapon against the empire. Maybe you should just leave that red herring at the door now.

More drivel you could never prove, the essential atlas states the Empire had 1.75 million member worlds and 69 million territories

just reading to you what I find in star wars books. The information can be found here:



I don't really have to prove anything. Erasing the comet on the voyager episode stopped the formation of life on all planets in that star system. Abiogenesis is a complex process and requires a lot of time. Billions of years in fact is needed to create life, then complex life, then intelligent life, and then lifeforms capable of even acquiring space travel. Erasing the water on the planets alone would be a good start to stopping evolution from taking place.

They don't pose a threat with temporal technology, part of the crew was ready to revolt after 200 years, completely erasing a polity as large and complex as the Empire could take millenia or eons, ensuring the crew revolts shuts off the temporal core and waits to be destroyed.

not really part of the crew, just one crew member. He was probably convinced that voyager would help him return to his people too. The crew probably won't revolt if they are in enemy territory like that and considering they can do something for 200 years shows something about their resolve.

This of course also assumes relativistic shielding doesn't shield SW ships from the temporal weapon, and the Empire doesn't use its eons of time waiting to be completely erased to develop temporal weapons and defenses, and that the ship really is immune to all weapons, and not just to weapons with anemically low ST yields

And basically by using temporal weapons you've admitted normal trek weapons are useless to fight the Empire

these are pretty safe assumptions too. Relativistic shielding doesn't protect star wars ships anymore than a subspace bubble around star fleet ships doesn't protect them from it either. It's a hasty generalization. And the empire won't waste eons of time trying to create a defense with the krenim weapon erasing history they erasing knowledge of themselves from history as well.

I'll use an analogy that hopefully explains that further with a logical argument:

Here are my assumptions:
1) krenim ship erases things from history
2) krenim ship is protected from changes in the timeline

Here are the things in disputed
3) history still records that the krenim ship exists in the newly created timeline
4) any previous confrontations with the weapon are now changed due to changed history, (for example different star destroyers that attacked the weapon than the ones that actually attacked it because they got erased)
5) the krenim's records of the battles don't match with their historical records. Did the krenim take knowledge of the ships that were attacking them in this altered history that the krenim don't remember? They can't both be right.


points 3, 4,and 5 are contradicted with point 2 therefore I dismiss them as possible and they are not shown as true on film either which is even better. The empire won't work on defenses because they even know the weapon exists.

You moron Trek ships travel at warp. When you travel at warp the ship and a bubble of space surrounding it are still at sub-light speeds it is the space outside the bubble that moves faster than light. Therefore the ship won't have the same time dilation problems as ships in hyperspace.

Remember those average joes that you guys said are usually wrong? Hunter is one of those average joes. Theoretically going faster than light causes changes in the speed of time. This is proven in the site I gave you and by your own admission on previous posts. All star trek ships have technology that solves the same problems that relativistic shielding solves. We know star trek ships are not immune to changes in history from going at warp. It's obsurd to just assume that since relativistic shielding can now protect them from all temporal weapons when they plainly say that this so call shielding does not protect against weapons.

[Formless]

More drivel you could never prove, the essential atlas states the Empire had 1.75 million member worlds and 69 million territories

just reading to you what I find in star wars books. The information can be found here: *snip*

Setting aside that that is an RPG sourcebook, why does it matter if the Empire has 1.2million worlds or 1.75million? Either way that is an order of magnitude larger scale than you seem to think it is, and large enough that the so called "butterfly effect" isn't going to do squat if you only delete 1000 people from time. Fuck, you can easily fit 1000 people into a decent lecture hall. That is such a small number of people that you could delete 1000 people from modern Earth and you wouldn't effect our civilization's capabilities or motivations greatly. You have no imagination if you think 1000 people is a large number in the scale of things.

[marsh8472]

More drivel you could never prove, the essential atlas states the Empire had 1.75 million member worlds and 69 million territories

just reading to you what I find in star wars books. The information can be found here: *snip*

Setting aside that that is an RPG sourcebook, why does it matter if the Empire has 1.2million worlds or 1.75million? Either way that is an order of magnitude larger scale than you seem to think it is, and large enough that the so called "butterfly effect" isn't going to do squat if you only delete 1000 people from time. Fuck, you can easily fit 1000 people into a decent lecture hall. That is such a small number of people that you could delete 1000 people from modern Earth and you wouldn't effect our civilization's capabilities or motivations greatly. You have no imagination if you think 1000 people is a large number in the scale of things.

actually after looking at http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Imperial ... _Destroyer I'd say the crew compliment is between 30 and 50 thousand per star destroyer. Once you remove those officers you remove all their accomplishments, contributions to the empire, manpower. It could very well have a butterfly effect. One comet erased one star system and there's no reason to believe that this is the upper range of the weapons power. So you're looking at a maximum of 1000 temporal incursions that can erase all life in star wars. I don't know how it works but the krenim ship has temporal technology aboard that allows them to determine the outcomes of the erasures before hand so he could just concentrate on preventing abiogensis on planets instead of targeting any strategic point belonging to the empire.

[Formless]

1000, 10000, 20000... its doesn't matter. You have no idea what an "order of magnitude" means, the difference it represents. According to your own source There are up to 1000000000000000 people in the Empire. Every zero is a power of ten, an order of magnitude more than the previous zero. Losing 10000 from that is such a miniscule drop in the bucket that the manpower of the Empire isn't going to be damaged by that loss. At all. And that is without considering the fact that the Empire supplements that number with droids and factory robots who are quite likely the real backbone of the military machine, if not the civilization itself.

[DrStrangelove]

just because one mission is difficult to achieve doesn't mean he cannot achieve other missions in less time. For example, if his mission was to make the krenim empire weaker then he did that right away just like he can make the empire on star wars weaker.

But we're talking about destroying the Empire not making it weaker, shifting goalposts isnt going to make eradicating the Empire from history any easier

sure but we didn't witness how they dealt with every encounter with the krenim. In their first encounter, their shield strength was almost gone and they had taken heavy damage with crewmen dead. Speaking of not changing facts, this doesn't change the fact that we aren't even talking about standard krenim torpedos against the empire but rather the krenim temporal weapon against the empire. Maybe you should just leave that red herring at the door now.

And I'm sure every Imperial ship will conveniently hold still to be shot with a spinally mounted weapon, and relies entirely on your whole assumption the ship is immune to SW weapons

just reading to you what I find in star wars books. The information can be found here:

I was referring more to your half-assed unsupported assumptions

I don't really have to prove anything.

Spoken like a true trektard fuckstain

Erasing the comet on the voyager episode stopped the formation of life on all planets in that star system. Abiogenesis is a complex process and requires a lot of time. Billions of years in fact is needed to create life, then complex life, then intelligent life, and then lifeforms capable of even acquiring space travel. Erasing the water on the planets alone would be a good start to stopping evolution from taking place.

So which planet in Annorax's extensive SW database will allow him to erase the Empire in one fell swoop? And how many years at warp will it take to get there?

not really part of the crew, just one crew member. He was probably convinced that voyager would help him return to his people too. The crew probably won't revolt if they are in enemy territory like that and considering they can do something for 200 years shows something about their resolve.

All it took was one remember? Your proposed mission could easily be a thousand times longer

these are pretty safe assumptions too.

Based on what? you said so? monkeys fucking?

Relativistic shielding doesn't protect star wars ships anymore than a subspace bubble around star fleet ships doesn't protect them from it either.

Based on what? who said anything about subspace, Bubble boy

It's a hasty generalization. And the empire won't waste eons of time trying to create a defense with the krenim weapon erasing history they erasing knowledge of themselves from history as well.

Except all those pesky outside observers running around, who ultimately wiped out the timeship


Your concession on the inferiority of trek weapons is noted

[marsh8472]

1000, 10000, 20000... its doesn't matter. You have no idea what an "order of magnitude" means, the difference it represents. According to your own source There are up to 1000000000000000 people in the Empire. Every zero is a power of ten, an order of magnitude more than the previous zero. Losing 10000 from that is such a miniscule drop in the bucket that the manpower of the Empire isn't going to be damaged by that loss. At all. And that is without considering the fact that the Empire supplements that number with droids and factory robots who are quite likely the real backbone of the military machine, if not the civilization itself.

sure but there are initial conditions that can be erased preventing these things from mattering. Even if it took orders of magnitude longer to erase the empire the krenim shp has the means to cause as many erasures as it takes.

But we're talking about destroying the Empire not making it weaker, shifting goalposts isnt going to make eradicating the Empire from history any easier

of course, but making it weaker eliminates your orders of magnitude argument. The more weak they become the more manageable of a target they become until they no longer exist. You can't walk a mile without taking one step at a time.

I was referring more to your half-assed unsupported assumptions

my assumptions are from common knowledge about the show and canon proof.

So which planet in Annorax's extensive SW database will allow him to erase the Empire in one fell swoop? And how many years at warp will it take to get there?

depends where they are and where they need to get to. At warp 6 it would take him 300 years to travel from one side of the galaxy to another. Does this defeat them? no. The ship is outside of space time and dont' age. So why bring that up over and over?

All it took was one remember? Your proposed mission could easily be a thousand times longer

the second in command and he wouldn't be stupid enough to do it in this case. It would be suicide.

Based on what? you said so? monkeys fucking?

based on... what i said in that post. Go read, you know how to read right? heh.. or if you don't know how to read then yes, because I said so for the sake of argument.

Based on what? who said anything about subspace, Bubble boy

I told you already. The descriptions of relativistic shielding on star wars canon sites tells you all you need to know about its lack of ability against a temporal shockwave. Fart sniffer.

Except all those pesky outside observers running around, who ultimately wiped out the timeship


Your concession on the inferiority of trek weapons is noted

That's a red haring. Star trek weapons are superior to star wars weapons. I know you gusy don't realize that which is why I can show that firepower isn't even needed to win against them. No need to argue about firepower here though.

[Formless]

sure but there are initial conditions that can be erased preventing these things from mattering. Even if it took orders of magnitude longer to erase the empire the krenim shp has the means to cause as many erasures as it takes.

As to the first sentence, what part of trends > events do you not understand you sploogstain? You can change the initial conditions but that only changes the details of how the empire thrashes you, it cannot change the scale or nature of their threat. And you still have to identify the key points in history, find out where the key actors are now in the present, get there, and survive the trip. Then once the change has been made good luck predicting how it will change things, because as we saw in YoH half the time these changes were for the worse for the guys in the timeship. As to the second sentence, why the hell are you ignoring moral? After 200 years just trying and failing to fix the problems of one insignificant single-planet centric civilization they were already plotting mutiny. This isn't as simple as you make it out to be, though I suspect that's all the complexity your brain is capable of handling without falling asleep or moving your hands towards you penis over fantasies involving teh awesome krenim timeship lololololol!!!1

[marsh8472]

sure but there are initial conditions that can be erased preventing these things from mattering. Even if it took orders of magnitude longer to erase the empire the krenim shp has the means to cause as many erasures as it takes.

As to the first sentence, what part of trends > events do you not understand you sploogstain? You can change the initial conditions but that only changes the details of how the empire thrashes you, it cannot change the scale or nature of their threat. And you still have to identify the key points in history, find out where the key actors are now in the present, get there, and survive the trip. Then once the change has been made good luck predicting how it will change things, because as we saw in YoH half the time these changes were for the worse for the guys in the timeship. As to the second sentence, why the hell are you ignoring moral? After 200 years just trying and failing to fix the problems of one insignificant single-planet centric civilization they were already plotting mutiny. This isn't as simple as you make it out to be, though I suspect that's all the complexity your brain is capable of handling without falling asleep or moving your hands towards you penis over fantasies involving teh awesome krenim timeship lololololol!!!1

what makes you think there aren't initial conditions for trends in general. In fact there are. If you have no life formed in the galaxy you have no empire. The krenim weapon seems to be able to scan affects of temporal incursions without actually doing them. It's just a matter of scanning various erasures and executing the ones that cause the most damage. My brain is wayy more complex than yours. You sound like you have cobwebs in there or a hampster running in a wheel slowly turning those gears.

[Formless]

what makes you think there aren't initial conditions for trends in general.

For trends like "technological capabilities increase with time" there are no initial conditions, moron. Trends describe the behavior of a system, as long as that system is in place. Evolution wouldn't stop happening just because species A never existed, for example.

If you have no life formed in the galaxy you have no empire.

And instead the Yuuzhan Vong eat you alive. Oh, did we forget to mention that they came from outside the galaxy in the EU? As much as I loath everything that has to do with them, they are a part of Star Wars canon whether I like it or not and they still manage to outclass the Trek powers. So there.

This also runs smack into your general inability to comprehend the scale of space: you have not only the millions of worlds that are part of the Empire to erase, you have billions more after that to erase because news flash-- galaxies are fucking huge. Despite the name and enormous size of the Galactic Empire, the galaxy is bigger still by another order of magnitude. For all you know the forgotten homeworld of humans in Star Wars (not to mention countless other species with forgotten homeworlds) is one of the planets not currently in Imperial space. It may even have been destroyed or dismantled for its resources. You want to get rid of all life in the Star Wars galaxy you gotta be thorough, which means systematically erasing each and every habitable planet from the galaxy and its satellite galaxies (which not only harbor life but take part in galactic economics as of AotC), a task which could last you till the stars burn out going at warp speeds. Good luck with that.

The krenim weapon seems to be able to scan affects of temporal incursions without actually doing them. It's just a matter of scanning various erasures and executing the ones that cause the most damage.

A simpler, more coherent explanation for what we saw them do is that their computer simulates the effects of an incursion. Badly it seems, since they consistently showed they couldn't predict rain if was cloudy.

My brain is wayy more complex than yours. You sound like you have cobwebs in there or a hampster running in a wheel slowly turning those gears.

Complex? You couldn't tell your right hand from your left at this rate. Oh, no, I take that back. The right hand is the one you touch yourself with at night as you wank off to bootleg Star Trek Voyager porn.

[marsh8472]

For trends like "technological capabilities increase with time" there are no initial conditions, moron. Trends describe the behavior of a system, as long as that system is in place. Evolution wouldn't stop happening just because species A never existed, for example.

Even if the trends were true they could just delay every threatening species technological ability in the present presumably to increase in the future. Too bad they'll all be gone after they get erased which then destroys the system you're talking about.

And instead the Yuuzhan Vong eat you alive. Oh, did we forget to mention that they came from outside the galaxy in the EU? As much as I loath everything that has to do with them, they are a part of Star Wars canon whether I like it or not and they still manage to outclass the Trek powers. So there.

They wouldn't stand a chance against the krenim weapon anymore than the empire did so why even mention it? You must want the casuality count to be as high as possible while trek's casualties are 0 in this conflict.

This also runs smack into your general inability to comprehend the scale of space: you have not only the millions of worlds that are part of the Empire to erase, you have billions more after that to erase because news flash-- galaxies are fucking huge. Despite the name and enormous size of the Galactic Empire, the galaxy is bigger still by another order of magnitude. For all you know the forgotten homeworld of humans in Star Wars (not to mention countless other species with forgotten homeworlds) is one of the planets not currently in Imperial space. It may even have been destroyed or dismantled for its resources. You want to get rid of all life in the Star Wars galaxy you gotta be thorough, which means systematically erasing each and every habitable planet from the galaxy and its satellite galaxies (which not only harbor life but take part in galactic economics as of AotC), a task which could last you till the stars burn out going at warp speeds. Good luck with that.

Most of the planets in the galaxy are colonized. There's only about 20 million sentient species to worry about. when you think about it, the krenim weapon would probably get away with winning without having to fire a shot. All they would have to do is threaten to use the weapon and let everyone know that when they do it would alter history causing their lives to be different and their own personal identities to cease to exist. The empire would raise the white flag and that would be the end of it. Easy scare tactic.

A simpler, more coherent explanation for what we saw them do is that their computer simulates the effects of an incursion. Badly it seems, since they consistently showed they couldn't predict rain if was cloudy.

The only time their calculations were off was when voyager had temporal shielding. And you remember annorax saying "impossible, our calculations were perfect" implying that his computer system has the ability to take everythign into account. Plus there's that time when annorax first used the weapon to erase their enemy but a year later a disease broke out and killed his wife but those consequences weren't shown until a year after he used the weapon.

Complex? You couldn't tell your right hand from your left at this rate. Oh, no, I take that back. The right hand is the one you touch yourself with at night as you wank off to bootleg Star Trek Voyager porn.

nope I get laid in real life thanks. But I heard that you jack off to the thought of Jabba the Hutt sitting on your face while you lick his asshole. That's pretty sick even for a gay basterd like you