Cap ships in Star Trek

[Master of Ossus]

Incidentally, I stil can't really tell why maneuverability would be so important for the larger ST ships, since they seem to sit in walls and trade blows with each other while at point blank range.

I also cannot conceive of any reason why their maneuverability would be a significant factor in any conflict between SW vs. ST. They may be more maneuverable than an ISD, but there is really no reason I can see for that to be particularly important.

[Patrick Degan]

. . . and, therefore, starships which will outmaneuver Star Wars vessels quite comfortably

Federation ships were "outmanoeuvering" the Borg cubeship at Wolf 359. That didn't amount to anything at all, and the final score at Wolf ended up: Borg 39, Federation 0.

Clay pigeons are faster than the people shooting at them. But it's always the clay pigeons that lose.

[Master of Ossus]

Clay pigeons are faster than the people shooting at them. But it's always the clay pigeons that lose.

Funny how that works.

[Lord_Vader]

Heh yeah...being faster only amounts to something if you can put a significant sting into your attack on the lesser agile foe.

[Darth Yoshi]

TNG and after ships may be more maneuverable than an ISD, but if LTLs can track and hit the insanely maneuverable, 10 meter long A-wings from the side (ref. ROTJ [canon]), it doesn't matter.

[Master of Ossus]

TNG and after ships may be more maneuverable than an ISD, but if LTLs can track and hit the insanely maneuverable, 10 meter long A-wings from the side (ref. ROTJ [canon]), it doesn't matter.

It was actually an X-Wing, and it was 15 meters long, but who really cares? The slight advantage that most Trek ships appear to have over SW in maneuverability is essentially irrelevent.

[His Divine Shadow]

The invisible, damage inducing portion of a TL propogates at the speed of light and does considerable damage by itself.

It does all the damage really, the visible part is just like a ripple travelling along the beam.
Like waves in the sea.

[His Divine Shadow]

The invisible, damage inducing portion of a TL propogates at the speed of light and does considerable damage by itself.

It does all the damage really, the visible part is just like a ripple travelling along the beam.
Like waves in the sea.

[His Divine Shadow]

uuuuh? Postcount ++?

[Mr Bean]

A better way of putting it HDS is its a Tracer

[His Divine Shadow]

A better way of putting it HDS is its a Tracer

Not on purpose though, because it's so horribly inadequate as a tracer.

[DarkStar]

I recommend you watch TESB again...it seems as if even a full blown ISD can run circles around the Enterprise-D

As demonstrated when two Star Destroyers sideswiped each other, huh?

[His Divine Shadow]

As demonstrated when two Star Destroyers sideswiped each other, huh?

Thats rather irrelevant isn't it as it was primarly an issue of human reaction speed rather than the ability of the ship itself, but he was speaking to people with a brain, you may sit back down again.

[DarkStar]

the ST ship however has the much harder job of trying to dodge all that weapon fire which can hit 10 meter targets quite easily.

Given the numerous misses by a TF battleship against Amidala's Royal Yacht in TPM at a range of about 60km, the numerous misses by an ISD against the Millenium Falcon in the asteroid chase scene at point-blank range (http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/given/by/bigblt1.jpg, http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/given/by/flcpass2.gif), et cetera, I wouldn't say they can hit 10m things easily at all.. If anything, these examples of ships moving almost directly toward and almost directly away from one another suggest horrendous accuracy. There's also the ANH:SE scene with one of the Death Star's turrets wildly missing two slow-moving X-Wings that are flying right toward it.

For non-capship examples, the various wide misses by TIE fighters in ANH versus the X-Wings come to mind. And, I trust I need not even mention Slave I versus the Jedi Fighter in AoTC, where Jango's shooting was so bad Boba actually sounded surprised when hits were made ("You got him!?!"). Then there's the scene which Poe describes as the Falcon chasing down TIEs, where the Falcon actually hits the friendly ship more than it hits the TIEs: http://h4h.com/louis/falconti.mov

And, of course, there's that pesky effective range limit on the MF: http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/STSWwarsrange.html

[DarkStar]

The invisible, damage inducing portion of a TL propogates at the speed of light and does considerable damage by itself.

Unfortunately, this is usually never observed in the canon visuals, except for the scene of a blaster vs. Luke's hand and an ISD vs. an asteroid. All other examples I am aware of point to bolt=damage.

[DarkStar]

As demonstrated when two Star Destroyers sideswiped each other, huh?

Thats rather irrelevant isn't it as it was primarly an issue of human reaction speed rather than the ability of the ship itself,

You mean no one noticed that they were on a collision course, despite those big bridge windows? http://h4h.com/louis/imp2.jpg

[DarkStar]

I really don't see ST ships maneuvering that well though.
They certainly TRY to maneuver like fighters, but they don't really pull it off convincingly, most of the time I only see some lethargic turns.

Might I suggest the "What You Leave Behind" collection?

http://stardock.hispeed.com/movies/movies.shtml

[Lord of the Farce]

Given the numerous misses by a TF battleship against Amidala's Royal Yacht in TPM at a range of about 60km, the numerous misses by an ISD against the Millenium Falcon in the asteroid chase scene at point-blank range, et cetera, I wouldn't say they can hit 10m things easily at all..

Funny you give those two as examples, seeing as in both they were trying to capture, not kill.

If anything, these examples of ships moving almost directly toward and almost directly away from one another suggest horrendous accuracy. There's also the ANH:SE scene with one of the Death Star's turrets wildly missing two slow-moving X-Wings that are flying right toward it.

Jamming and low target profile (while a X-Wing might be 10 to 15 meters long and roughly that wide, the exposed surface area from all axis is very small).

And, I trust I need not even mention Slave I versus the Jedi Fighter in AoTC, where Jango's shooting was so bad Boba actually sounded surprised when hits were made ("You got him!?!").

Jango's shooting was "so bad"? You must have been watching a different version of AOTC from me, because I can quite vividly recall that no shot went past the Jedi Fighter on any side by about a couple of meters at most. And it was more like Boba exclaimed out loud when one of the shots punched through the Jedi Fighter's shields.

Then there's the scene which Poe describes as the Falcon chasing down TIEs, where the Falcon actually hits the friendly ship more than it hits the TIEs

Ever tried to shoot a gun while holding it out to the side? We don't know who was manning the turrets of the Falcon (if there was anyone), but we do know that jamming was in effect.

And, of course, there's that pesky effective range limit on the MF: http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/STSWwarsrange.html

So a smuggler's freighter is suppose to be your all damning evidence of SW ships' weapon range?

[Lord of the Farce]

I really don't see ST ships maneuvering that well though.
They certainly TRY to maneuver like fighters, but they don't really pull it off convincingly, most of the time I only see some lethargic turns.

Might I suggest the "What You Leave Behind" collection?

http://stardock.hispeed.com/movies/movies.shtml

Can't be bothered checking out the link, but from memory, there was something in the DS9 finale with the Defiant pulling a loop... and taking a little over five seconds to do it, despite the fact that it was moving at low speed (you can tell because the others ships that were in front to start off with remain almost exactly the same size, where if everyone had been moving at high speeds the Defiant would have fallen at least a bit behind).

[Vympel]

Hhahahah the Trade Federation battleship incident is an example of SW inaccuracy?!

Where they were aiming to capture- and did the following:

- took out the shield generator instead of blowing the whole ship to smithereens
- blasted off every astromech droid attempting to repair the shield generator- consistently; except for R2 of course who managed to get the shields back on in time before the trade fed gunners blew him off too.

Good one Darkstar

And of course- I'd love to see a 600m ship dodge a HTL- because they're so small and hard to hit, don't you know- I can see the trekkie logic now:

15m long X-Wing hard to hit with turrets designed for destroying capital ships

ergo

600m long Enterprise-E hard to hit with turrets designed for destroying capital ships

Riiiiiiggghhhhht.

[starfury]

another beliver in that one must have rambo like accuary to be able to shoot well, idiot

[Master of Ossus]

The invisible, damage inducing portion of a TL propogates at the speed of light and does considerable damage by itself.

Unfortunately, this is usually never observed in the canon visuals, except for the scene of a blaster vs. Luke's hand and an ISD vs. an asteroid. All other examples I am aware of point to bolt=damage.

Ummm.... If you watch RotJ, there are other shots that do damage before the bolt reaches the target. The scene in which the Nebulon B frigate (since you don't accept non-canon stuff, the Medical frigate) is engaging the Star Destroyer, there are two shots with explosions before the bolt hits. In TPM, I know of two other incidents in which this is observed. One is when the Naboo forces in Theed open fire on the Battle Droids there, and one is in the Gungan battle. If you watch closely, you will see evidence of damage before the bolt actually hits. I also like how, when you acknowledge that we have seen this in canon visuals, you ignore it because we have only seen it in a few.

[His Divine Shadow]

You mean no one noticed that they were on a collision course, despite those big bridge windows? http://h4h.com/louis/imp2.jpg

It would have involved the operator notifying the captain, who then had to order evasive action, wich it did, and wich was what happened.

[DarkStar]

Given the numerous misses by a TF battleship against Amidala's Royal Yacht in TPM at a range of about 60km, the numerous misses by an ISD against the Millenium Falcon in the asteroid chase scene at point-blank range, et cetera, I wouldn't say they can hit 10m things easily at all..

Funny you give those two as examples, seeing as in both they were trying to capture, not kill.

They did want to hit the ship, did they not?

Jamming and low target profile (while a X-Wing might be 10 to 15 meters long and roughly that wide, the exposed surface area from all axis is very small).

No, you don't understand. They missed wide. Not even the same ballpark.

And, I trust I need not even mention Slave I versus the Jedi Fighter in AoTC, where Jango's shooting was so bad Boba actually sounded surprised when hits were made ("You got him!?!").

Jango's shooting was "so bad"?

There I go giving people too much credit again . . .

You must have been watching a different version of AOTC from me, because I can quite vividly recall that no shot went past the Jedi Fighter on any side by about a couple of meters at most.

Whatever, dude.
http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/STSWasterosmack.html

And it was more like Boba exclaimed out loud when one of the shots punched through the Jedi Fighter's shields.

It was the first time shots had been fired that could hope to hit the hull.

Then there's the scene which Poe describes as the Falcon chasing down TIEs, where the Falcon actually hits the friendly ship more than it hits the TIEs

Ever tried to shoot a gun while holding it out to the side? We don't know who was manning the turrets of the Falcon (if there was anyone), but we do know that jamming was in effect.

Aim the guns dead-forward, put a crosshair on the cockpit window, and don't shoot when there's a friendly behind the target. Was this concept lost over the 25,000 years of galactic civilization?

And, of course, there's that pesky effective range limit on the MF: http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/STSWwarsrange.html

So a smuggler's freighter is suppose to be your all damning evidence of SW ships' weapon range?

Nope. It's a first example. I'm just getting started. Hence that big fat "More to Come . . . " sitting at the bottom of the page.

[DarkStar]

Can't be bothered checking out the link,

Well, then . . . 'scuuuse me.

but from memory, there was something in the DS9 finale with the Defiant pulling a loop... and taking a little over five seconds to do it, despite the fact that it was moving at low speed

Low speed? Ten seconds before that she was moving at 1km/sec or better, while chasing a Breen ship. The loop was an effort to take care of some JH ships on their tail. The loop obviously does not represent their maximum turning ability, since the ship turned about 90 degrees up and a bit to the side in about half a second in the 3rd part of the clip that you can't be bothered to look at.

(you can tell because the others ships that were in front to start off with remain almost exactly the same size, where if everyone had been moving at high speeds the Defiant would have fallen at least a bit behind).

That makes absolutely no sense. Those are enemy ships, and we do not know their velocity. Indeed, from the clips I have, I can't even tell the direction of travel.