TLJ/Voyager character swap.

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TLJ/Voyager character swap.

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-07-11 04:29am

Because this forum is way too dead.

Everybody seems to hate Admiral Holdo, and go on about what a bad leader she is, despite the film clearly not intending her to be one. Everyone seems to hate Captain Janeway, and go on about what a bad leader she is, despite the show clearly not intending her to be one. Each was a female commander in a traditionally male role, each faced a seemingly-impossible challenge, each made some highly controversial choices (I'm not going to argue over who's choices were actually worse overall here), each had some subordinates of highly-dubious competency, and each ultimately laid down their life (alternate timeline Admiral Janeway, in Janeway's case) to get their people (what was left of them) to their destination.

So I am rather curious: what would happen if they swapped places? Could Holdo do better making her way across the Delta Quadrant? Could Janeway win the Battle of Crait?

Holdo's consciousness is transported into Janeway's body at the same instant, and vice versa. How do they do in each other's shoes, operating with unfamiliar crews and equipment in a new galaxy?
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Re: TLJ/Voyager character swap.

Post by FaxModem1 » 2019-07-12 12:24am

They're both relieved of duty for screaming about being in the wrong place and in the wrong body.

Okay, snark aside, I'll play. Janeway orders a group huddle in the equivalent of the meeting room, discussing options, maneuvers, safe havens, etc. Poe doesn't mutiny because he feels like he's part of the plan. If Janeway is willing to tolerate Neelix giving suggestions, she's willing to tolerate Poe doing so. Finding a plan she can live with, and can brief everyone. Janeway, realizing the importance of morale, gives impassioned speeches, walks the decks of the ship to reassure everyone, and recognizes if someone has a better idea than her(see how she responded to Torres's suggestions and made her chief engineer). They might even send people out to buy gas. I see her also getting the rest of the flotilla to retreat for one reason or another.

Holdo makes an enemy of Chakotay, and refuses to listen to him. Torres and Kim are considered lost and abandoned on Ocampa, as Voyager speeds away. Tuvok eventually mindmelds with Holdo to try and figure out why the is acting so paranoid and unreasonable. Eventual mutiny due to Chakotay and Tuvok not smoothing her feathers, stopping crew disturbances, and her acting out of character. Probably the first time Paris makes a snarky remark and she tears into him for being a fly boy who got people killed.

Holdo has the disadvantage of having a crew on Voyager that at least some of them have known Janeway for years. Janeway in Holdo's place is at the advantage of being unknown. and doesn't have to uphold a premise of knowing these people for years, giving her more options.
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Re: TLJ/Voyager character swap.

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-07-12 01:20am

FaxModem1 wrote:
2019-07-12 12:24am
They're both relieved of duty for screaming about being in the wrong place and in the wrong body.
To take this seriously for a moment, I think Janeway would probably raise the matter with someone, once she had assertained that this was a post-warp society and it wasn't a prime directive issue. Holdo almost certainly would say something or react in some noticeable way, because its more of an outside context problem for her reality (interdimensional travel and body swapping are at least less common in Star Wars, I think), she'd feel compelled to try to return to her post, and she has no Prime Directive to worry about. I think she'd probably be believed, eventually at least, because Starfleet has dealt with enough of this shit over the years. They probably have a whole section in their records on Q alone fucking with people like this. Janeway might have a harder time being taken seriously, but Leia could potentially sense that she is, in fact, not Holdo. Unfortunately, Leia probably wouldn't get a chance before the shit hits the fan, thanks to Snoke and Kylo.

Of course, then they'd both be stripped of command with the next in line taking their place, which rather defeats the scenario. If Janeway delayed revealing herself until she knew more, and ended up in command, however, there's an outside chance that she'd opt to just play Holdo's part to make sure that she doesn't inadvertently interfere in this situation.

Holdo might fall back on her history as a spy and keep her cover, not knowing how this new crew would react to her being exposed. In that case, Tuvok is probably the one to find her out- he knew Janeway prior to "Caretaker", and can mind-meld, is a security officer, and acts as a detective in a number of episodes.
Okay, snark aside, I'll play. Janeway orders a group huddle in the equivalent of the meeting room, discussing options, maneuvers, safe havens, etc. Poe doesn't mutiny because he feels like he's part of the plan. If Janeway is willing to tolerate Neelix giving suggestions, she's willing to tolerate Poe doing so. Finding a plan she can live with, and can brief everyone. Janeway, realizing the importance of morale, gives impassioned speeches, walks the decks of the ship to reassure everyone, and recognizes if someone has a better idea than her(see how she responded to Torres's suggestions and made her chief engineer). They might even send people out to buy gas. I see her also getting the rest of the flotilla to retreat for one reason or another.
Though obviously meant to condemn Holdo by proxy, this actually isn't too far off the mark, I think. Where I think that she would falter is in not knowing the tech. she's working with, what its limitations are, etc. For example I doubt she could pull off the hyperspace ramming maneuver. She would need advisers able to quickly bring her up to speed.

She might also try (probably pointlessly) to negotiate with the First Order. She doesn't know them, and negotiation first is Starfleet's style- and there may be time to do so during the hours of pursuit that are likely to unfold. Of course, this could feed rumours that she is a traitor, so we might still get the mutiny. Especially since she's likely to brush Poe off at first too- not because she's pissed at him, but just because she'll be still trying to get her bearings in a new environment, and he means no more to her than anyone else here.

I do think that, if push came to shove, she'd make the same play as Holdo did in the end, ramming the enemy while ordering her crew to abandon ship. She used that move, or similar ones, on multiple occasions in Voyager, IIRC.
Holdo makes an enemy of Chakotay, and refuses to listen to him.
Why? She would have none of the emotional baggage she had with canon Poe or that canon Janeway would have had with Chakotay, for that matter. Hell, the Marquis story is likely to immediately appeal to the sympathies of a Rebel officer. It doesn't make sense to assume that characters will behave the same way with the same outcomes if you put them into completely different situations- otherwise what's the point of a swap like this?

She and Chakotay probably get along great, provided that she doesn't see him as a threat to her authority, and she might be less concerned about upholding her authority here, because she'd know full-well that she's not lawfully in command here, and that she's in unfamiliar territory. Alternatively, of course, that might make her even more determined to enforce her authority- that would depend on her specific personality, and whether her response to Poe was about his record personally, or if she responds to any position of weakness aggressively. I'm going to file that under "insufficient evidence".
Torres and Kim are considered lost and abandoned on Ocampa, as Voyager speeds away. Tuvok eventually mindmelds with Holdo to try and figure out why the is acting so paranoid and unreasonable. Eventual mutiny due to Chakotay and Tuvok not smoothing her feathers, stopping crew disturbances, and her acting out of character. Probably the first time Paris makes a snarky remark and she tears into him for being a fly boy who got people killed.
This isn't even a matter of opinion or not liking the character, its baseless, and indeed flat-out contradicting how we see Holdo behave. She never made the decision to abandon personnel. Her entire plan, good or bad, was predicated on sacrificing ships to save lives. Nor would their be any pressing need to abandon Torres and Kim on Occampa, and good reason to try to find them (shortage of qualified personnel plus moral issues). She might not be aware of the possibility that they've been transported to Occampa, but any Starfleet or Marquis officer could fill her in on that score.

Again, you are also apparently assuming that her reaction to Poe was simply due to a general hostility towards being questioned (at least by young male pilots), rather than toward Poe personally. Paris hasn't cost any of her people their lives. Paris hasn't just been demoted by her best friend. Agree or disagree with them, there are reasons behind Holdo's actions that do not apply here, because she's a person, not a robot with her programming set to "asshole". Although (speaking as someone who thinks Tom Paris is one of the best characters on Voyager, so I'm not trying to bash him) Paris was a convicted felon who was only brought along as an adviser, and became a pilot due to necessity, so Holdo might reasonably dismiss him on those grounds.

I do think Tuvok would eventually figure out she wasn't Janeway and try to remove her from command, if she didn't come clean herself. But that's just an inevitability of the situation, not a result of her leadership or lack thereof.
Holdo has the disadvantage of having a crew on Voyager that at least some of them have known Janeway for years. Janeway in Holdo's place is at the advantage of being unknown. and doesn't have to uphold a premise of knowing these people for years, giving her more options.
True.

I think the big point of divergence is going to be Holdo trying to hold the Array. Both because she'll want to return home, and might see the Array as a means to do so (and a possible weapon against the First Order), and because she won't give two shits about the Prime Directive issues (the Rebels allied with Ewoks, remember), and indeed may see the Ocampa as analagous to the people the Rebellion was trying to liberate.

That's not to say Holdo is better than Janeway, mind you, or that she's worse, for that matter. I think Janeway's decision made sense (albeit poorly-articulated by the show's writers) given her background, orders, and the circumstances she was in. Holdo would make a different decision based on differing background, culture, and priorities.
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Re: TLJ/Voyager character swap.

Post by FaxModem1 » 2019-07-12 02:24am

Holdo is an intelligence officer. Chakotay is a traitor to the Federation. That is probably way too big a hurdle for her to acknowledge if she sides with the UFP and their goals. Itd be a natural instinct to not trust him.

On the plus side. She might expose Seska if she is suspicious of Maquis crew members.

Regarding Kim and Torres, they're unable to be beamed out, and told by local intelligence (Kazons/Neelix) that they're probably dead. Janeway and Chakotay don't leave their people behind, and insisted on rescuing them, where previous crews just departed. Considering how we saw at least one captain sacrifice his life for the plan, either willingly or unwillingly, and she's a fucking spy in the Resistance, Holdo is probably okay with the idea of assets losing their lives. We saw the Rebellion murder off their Intel sources before in Rogue One with their compromised assets. Even strafe bombing them. I wouldn't be surprised if Holdo is willing to cut her losses if told that they're dead already.

Securing the Caretaker satellite. I have no idea how that will go. Since Voyager can be waved away until Banjo Man dies of natural causes. With the Kazon, I see them just attacking her just because she's a woman. That's the Kazon for you.

Regarding Paris, you do remember why he was drummed out of Starfleet, right? He got a bunch of people killed doing a maneuver and tried to hide it until the guilt made him confess. Janeway gave him a second chance because he had Intelligence and she knew his father, thinking he could get a second chance. One of her strengths is that she gives second chances to those who have messed up in the past, whether they be a criminal, a terrorist, a Borg, a murderer, or a terrible cook. We let the last one fly because he doubled as a tour guide. :wink:

And I'm dead serious about Janeway making it through. See her fight with the Hazari in Think Tank, and trying to outfight, outthink, or out cheat her opponents when pressed. And that was actually being caught in a full on ambush from all sides, not just a slow chase over the course of a day.
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Re: TLJ/Voyager character swap.

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-07-12 05:30am

FaxModem1 wrote:
2019-07-12 02:24am
Holdo is an intelligence officer. Chakotay is a traitor to the Federation. That is probably way too big a hurdle for her to acknowledge if she sides with the UFP and their goals. Itd be a natural instinct to not trust him.
Fair point, but... would she side with the UFP and its goals? Just because she's in Janeway's shoes doesn't mean she shares Janeway's ideology now.

By the Empire's definition, Holdo was a traitor herself, after all. If she decides to keep the fact that she's not Janeway secret, the Federation crew is a threat to her. The smart play would be to go to Chakotay, say "I'm posing undercover as a Federation officer, you help me and I'll help you." What's Chakotay going to do, rat her out to Starfleet?
On the plus side. She might expose Seska if she is suspicious of Maquis crew members.
Yes. Although that's likely to happen anyway as per canon (IIRC it was irregularities in a medical exam that exposed it, though its been a while since I saw it).
Regarding Kim and Torres, they're unable to be beamed out, and told by local intelligence (Kazons/Neelix) that they're probably dead. Janeway and Chakotay don't leave their people behind, and insisted on rescuing them, where previous crews just departed. Considering how we saw at least one captain sacrifice his life for the plan, either willingly or unwillingly, and she's a fucking spy in the Resistance, Holdo is probably okay with the idea of assets losing their lives. We saw the Rebellion murder off their Intel sources before in Rogue One with their compromised assets. Even strafe bombing them. I wouldn't be surprised if Holdo is willing to cut her losses if told that they're dead already.
Possibly. She certainly won't have the attachment to them that she did to her own personnel in canon. I suppose it probably depends on how thoroughly informed she is on the situation, and what the risks are of trying to rescue them.
Securing the Caretaker satellite. I have no idea how that will go. Since Voyager can be waved away until Banjo Man dies of natural causes. With the Kazon, I see them just attacking her just because she's a woman. That's the Kazon for you.
Yup. She'd probably secure the station once Banjo Man bought it, and try to hold it against the Kazon. Whether she could win that fight is open to debate- Voyager required a kamikaze by Chakotay's ship to win it against the Kazon, and there were more on the way when Janeway blew it up IIRC.

If she tries to hold the Array, she'd probably die there, to be honest. She'd need Thrawn-level tactical skills and greater familiarity with the local technology to be able to win that fight, in all likelihood.
Regarding Paris, you do remember why he was drummed out of Starfleet, right? He got a bunch of people killed doing a maneuver and tried to hide it until the guilt made him confess. Janeway gave him a second chance because he had Intelligence and she knew his father, thinking he could get a second chance. One of her strengths is that she gives second chances to those who have messed up in the past, whether they be a criminal, a terrorist, a Borg, a murderer, or a terrible cook. We let the last one fly because he doubled as a tour guide. :wink:
Heh.

She's kind of like a Starfleet Dumbledore that way- always giving people second chances, even when they don't really deserve it and are objectively bad at their jobs (Hagrid/Snape, Neelix).

Yeah, you're right, I don't think Holdo would give Paris a chance unless circumstances forced her to, or gave him a chance to earn her respect through some act of extraordinary heroism or competency. Most likely, she'd just keep him in his adviser role, and dismiss him if he got out of line. She wouldn't know anything about him except what she could pick up from the other crew (who mostly didn't like him) or reading his record, and neither makes him look good at first glance (even though he's actually one of the most likable and competent people on the show).
And I'm dead serious about Janeway making it through. See her fight with the Hazari in Think Tank, and trying to outfight, outthink, or out cheat her opponents when pressed. And that was actually being caught in a full on ambush from all sides, not just a slow chase over the course of a day.
I agree. Janeway is good at getting out of tight fixes without out of the box thinking. Most Starfleet officers are. Of course, her options are somewhat curtailed by the total lack of the usual technobable crutches, and facing a situation where there really isn't much scope for negotiation. But I'd still expect some very original tricks by Star Wars standards.
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Re: TLJ/Voyager character swap.

Post by Lord Revan » 2019-07-12 09:28pm

I think a big problem here is that IIRC we don't really see Holdo act in what a)isn't a crisis b)is her area of expertise, so she might be the best illigence gather the resistance/republic has but when put in charge of leading a fleet she's utterly incompetent. There's plenty of examples of officers like that from real life, who were really compent at certain rear-line task, but utterly incompent as field commanders.
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Re: TLJ/Voyager character swap.

Post by Deathstalker » 2019-07-12 10:49pm

so she might be the best illigence gather the resistance/republic
She was right on top of knowing about Starkiller base. Oh, wait she wasn't. She's not even good at her regular job.
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Re: TLJ/Voyager character swap.

Post by The Romulan Republic » 2019-07-12 11:22pm

That's a huge leap- there is absolutely zero evidence that she was in charge of overall intelligence operations for the Resistance, to my knowledge, so to claim that she had responsibility for Starkiller Base is, again, not a matter of opinion or of liking or disliking the character- its simply objectively baseless. At best, its possible in the same way that its possible that aliens will land in my backyard tomorrow- it hasn't been definitively disproven to have occurred, but there is zero evidence for it.

The stuff about Holdo being more experienced/capable in intelligence is half-canon/half-speculation based on EU material about her past actions during the Rebellion, not her position in the ST era.

For a bio on her career and personality pre-TLJ (its probably good to have all the information in one place for this thread, especially since its pretty scant compared to what we know about Janeway), its right here:

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Amilyn_Holdo

Her last known position prior to taking command at Crait was captain of the frigate Ninka, but she was apparently only in that post briefly, as she was seemingly assigned to it following the destruction of Starkiller Base (though the wording could be ambiguous here). She also briefed the pilots (the ones Poe lead to their deaths, I presume) following the destruction of Starkiller Base, and offered them ammunition supplies from her command, which could point to her being in either an intelligence or logistics role.

She appears to have acted informally as a spy for the Rebellion during the pre-A New Hope era, uncovering Leia's role in the Rebellion and then helping to smuggle her, along with key information for the Rebellion. Personality-wise, she appears to have been, at least in her youth, a weird mix of aspiring politician/spy and space hippy, with a bit of a daredevil or even death-seeker streak.

Her only known combat experience prior to the Battle of Crait, as far as I can tell, was at the Battle of Chyron Belt, but literally nothing is known about it beyond what Poe mentioned in the film- that the battle occurred, that Holdo was there, and that she did well enough there, based on whatever Poe had heard, for him to think well of her, and be disappointed by seeing her in person (never meet your heroes?).
Lord Revan wrote:
2019-07-12 09:28pm
I think a big problem here is that IIRC we don't really see Holdo act in what a)isn't a crisis b)is her area of expertise, so she might be the best illigence gather the resistance/republic has but when put in charge of leading a fleet she's utterly incompetent. There's plenty of examples of officers like that from real life, who were really compent at certain rear-line task, but utterly incompent as field commanders.
Cough McClellan Cough. Though McClellan was also an arrogant, insubordinate, borderline-treasonous pro-slavery dick in addition to being a shit field commander.

I wouldn't call Holdo "utterly incompetent" (even surviving that cluster fuck is a win in my book, honestly, though it helps when your opponent is General "I make Neelix look like a tactical genius" Hux). But otherwise, yeah, I think that's a plausible summation.
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