I need some debate help

Formless · Post by **Formless** » 2010-02-14 08:02pm

hogie1 wrote:wouldn't the fact that the ship affects time, mean that it could only affect things in its own time line and there fore be worthless in a fight against other things from other time lines

If it even existed in the first place. I mean, its not like it deleted itself from the timeline or any- oh, right.

Since when was the vs debate about one-off technologies of the week which were only shown once and never seen again, thus making it extraordinarily difficult to even effectively gauge their abilities? Do you idiots not understand why that is a disingenuous way to debate? I mean, why do you think no one tries arguing that Q could beat the Empire? Because its impossible to figure out what the limits of his abilities are, so no meaningful conclusions can be drawn about him. The same is true about the krenim time ship and basically every other time machine in Star Trek.

note: although I quoted you I'm not addressing you personally, hogie1, I'm addressing the fuckwit with the videos.

marsh8472 · Post by **marsh8472** » 2010-02-15 05:10am

hogie1 wrote:wouldn't the fact that the ship affects time, mean that it could only affect things in its own time line and there fore be worthless in a fight against other things from other time lines

I doubt it. The ship erases things from history not any one specific timeline. Even if it did erase from one specific timeline I think star wars and star trek are in the same universe. Star wars is described as being in a galaxy far far away and star trek is supposed to be in our galaxy in the future.

hunter5 · Post by **hunter5** » 2010-02-15 07:46am

Formless wrote:
hogie1 wrote:wouldn't the fact that the ship affects time, mean that it could only affect things in its own time line and there fore be worthless in a fight against other things from other time lines
If it even existed in the first place. I mean, its not like it deleted itself from the timeline or any- oh, right.

Since when was the vs debate about one-off technologies of the week which were only shown once and never seen again, thus making it extraordinarily difficult to even effectively gauge their abilities? Do you idiots not understand why that is a disingenuous way to debate? I mean, why do you think no one tries arguing that Q could beat the Empire? Because its impossible to figure out what the limits of his abilities are, so no meaningful conclusions can be drawn about him. The same is true about the krenim time ship and basically every other time machine in Star Trek.

note: although I quoted you I'm not addressing you personally, hogie1, I'm addressing the fuckwit with the videos.

Since it is a one time only technology we obviously can't find an easy weakness with it. Therefore since we have no easy means to counter it that means Trek wins. It is a concession that in a conventional war Trek loses therefore must rely on exotic technologies to win.

hogie1 · Post by **hogie1** » 2010-02-15 10:55am

history and timelines are one in the same from every time travel piece I know of, like in Crono-trigger when you changed things in the past the history was changed and it affected the future. Also in "Back to the Future" the whole movies was about the consequences and the changes to the timeline of history that their time traveling caused. Now the time ship from what I understand removes things from history, which is the same as going back in time and taking out the source which causes a chain reaction to make the object not exist in the first place. Now using the logic of time continuum if you removed the threat you also removed the reason for going back in time in the first place and there fore causes you to not have to go back in time in the first place which means the threat is still there meaning time travel accomplishes nothing in a fight that has already or is taking place in the present.

An easier thought is to try to go back in time to kill your grandfather, it becomes a time loop and nothing is gained and in the end you go on forever in a never ending loop or you stop the loop by not killing your grandfather.

Formless · Post by **Formless** » 2010-02-15 03:40pm

Therefore since we have no easy means to counter it that means Trek wins.

What? No. That's an Appeal to Ignorance if I ever heard one. I know you can do better than that, hunter.

Formless · Post by **Formless** » 2010-02-15 05:55pm

marsh8472 wrote:
hogie1 wrote:wouldn't the fact that the ship affects time, mean that it could only affect things in its own time line and there fore be worthless in a fight against other things from other time lines
I doubt it. The ship erases things from history not any one specific timeline. Even if it did erase from one specific timeline I think star wars and star trek are in the same universe. Star wars is described as being in a galaxy far far away and star trek is supposed to be in our galaxy in the future.

Lets imagine a universe where, for some stupid reason, the timeship still exists because, say, the Empire invaded before Janeway could ram the damn thing. How will the Milky Way Powers use this One and Only Hope Superweapon to defeat the Empire?

First problem-- getting it out of the hands of the psychopath who built it. He's looking out for Number One, remember? Second problem-- assuming you can do that, how does causality work? (this is a problem with all time travel strategies to defeat the Empire, so its an important question) Now, assuming that you answer all those questions, what are you going to do with it?

If you use it in fleet battles, its main weapon is entirely pointless. Sure, you can erase one Star Destroyer from time, but individual star destroyers aren't important. In the new timeline the Empire would just have a different Star Destroyer to send, because they don't magically stop making ships just because one star destroyer was never made. Unlike Voyager, Star Destroyers aren't one-of-a-kind wild cards that have huge (undeserved) impacts on history all by themselves; only when taken as a whole Navy of ships can you say they have an impact on Star Wars history. The same is true of the officers on board any given Imperial ship since there are trillions of beings from the Wars galaxy who can take their place in the new timeline. Sure, butterfly effects and all that, but assuming the Empire will invade in the new timeline anyway (as Q once told Picard "You aren't that important [to historical events]") they are still a strategic threat. Maybe that specific battle will never happen, in which case the Time Weapon is sitting out alone in space for no reason apparent to anyone but its crew, and no one but them will see any advantage.

Maybe the ship's more conventional weapons are of tactical value? Well, no. Lets assume for a simplicity's sake that the "Temporal Torpedoes" used by the non-timeship using krenim are roughly the same as what the Time Ship itself was using for conventional weapons. Their main advantage of the temporal torpedoes we saw throughout the episode was their ability to puncture the shields of enemy ships, but other than that they were far less than stellar as weapons. The damn things had a habit of not even exploding, and when they did they obviously are nowhere near kiloton level firepower or else Tuvok would have lost a lot more than his eyesight, to say the fucking least. They won't even tickle the thick durasteel armor plating of a Star Destroyer. What about defenses? Well, lets remember that the timeship itself was destroyed by ramming tactics which not only mortally wounded the ship, but caused its main weapon to backfire and erase itself from time. Oops. So much for it being a tactically important superweapon!

So how about strategic warfare? You could use it as a counter to the Death Star, but then the problem is getting close enough to fire the main weapon without eating turbolaser fire. And if you can pull off that unlikely stunt, you have the same problem as destroying individual Star Destroyers; one Death Star is insignificant to either Star Wars History or to the strategic threat the Empire poses. You will still be overrun by the Imperial Navy, which may even contain another Death Star (because again, its not a one-of-a-kind weapon). You would have to erase the Death Star's blueprints themselves from history to make sure the Empire won't have Death Stars, which would be no mean feat since it would mean having to enter the Star Wars galaxy, locate the blueprints, and try and survive long enough in said hostile environment to get a shot off. That would be like trying to find a needle in a landfill while being chased by fucking Terminators and you are a puny fleshling who moves slower than them and is severely outgunned.

If you can pull off erasing the Death Star from time it would have an effect on Star Wars history, but you have no idea what effect if any it will have on the actual strategic threat the Empire poses. After all, the Empire developed other super weapons besides the Death Star which arguably are more important to fighting the Milky Way powers such as World Devestators. You could try erasing the plans to Star Destroyers, but then the Empire would come at you with Acclamators and other equally powerful vessels in the revised timeline.

Maybe you could go on the offensive and erase Coruscant and the Emperor? (good fucking luck, you are going to need it) Unfortunately for you the history of the Star Wars galaxy does not depend on either of those; there are other planets that could take the role of "political center of the galaxy," and as for Palpatine, the political situation of the late Old Republic was so volatile that it was only a matter of time before someone like him (who may or may not be a Sith) hijacked control of things. In other words, you will only change the nature of the threat you will eventually face, you have not eliminated it.

Like I said before, the Empire has thousands of years of technological development and who knows how many millions to billions of star systems as an advantage over the Trek powers. One small ripple in a huge fucking ocean isn't going to magically make it into a dinky little puddle, and no amount of erasing little things like individual blueprints, starships, or people from Star Wars history is going to stop them from being a strategic threat. The argument that the Krenim Time weapon (and other time travel strategies) is some kind of "win" button is a flawed one completely broken because you are thinking about history the wrong way. What is important in history in the long term isn't the individual events or individual people involved. The things that truly impact history are trends like the Dawn of Agriculture, the Industrial Revolution, climate changes, population changes, cultural movements, scientific advancements, etc..

In "Year of Hell" the villain had the advantage that the civilizations he was messing with were centralized around single planets; change something which effects the history of that planet as a whole, and you massively change the history of everyone in the quaint little region of space occupied by the Krenim and their enemies. He was also dealing with a one-of-a-kind vessel (Voyager) whose mere presence could bring about enormous changes (thanks the insanity of its commanding officer). But the Empire is an unimaginably massive entity thousands of years ahead of the Milky way powers in terms of technological and industrial development with capabilities far outstripping everyone in Trek save perhaps the Q in terms of power, and that power is decentralized, and there is no one-of-a-kind wild card like Voyager you can eliminate which will change any of this. The more massive the civilization, the more insignificant the frankly oversold "butterfly effect" is to history; everything just averages out. Trek vs Wars still boils down to an apes vs angels problem no matter how you slice it. The Krenim weapon and other time machines aren't worth the materials they are made of.

Lastly, unless everyone in the Milky Way has Voyager's magic "temporal shielding" any change to history changes everyone's history who isn't on the timeship. No one will know you used it, and no one will care because effectively it never happened.

EnterpriseSovereign · Post by **EnterpriseSovereign** » 2010-02-15 06:54pm

hunter5 wrote:
Formless wrote:
hogie1 wrote:wouldn't the fact that the ship affects time, mean that it could only affect things in its own time line and there fore be worthless in a fight against other things from other time lines
If it even existed in the first place. I mean, its not like it deleted itself from the timeline or any- oh, right.

Since when was the vs debate about one-off technologies of the week which were only shown once and never seen again, thus making it extraordinarily difficult to even effectively gauge their abilities? Do you idiots not understand why that is a disingenuous way to debate? I mean, why do you think no one tries arguing that Q could beat the Empire? Because its impossible to figure out what the limits of his abilities are, so no meaningful conclusions can be drawn about him. The same is true about the krenim time ship and basically every other time machine in Star Trek.

note: although I quoted you I'm not addressing you personally, hogie1, I'm addressing the fuckwit with the videos.

Since it is a one time only technology we obviously can't find an easy weakness with it. Therefore since we have no easy means to counter it that means Trek wins. It is a concession that in a conventional war Trek loses therefore must rely on exotic technologies to win.

Something I've pointed out several times but the Trektards have repeatedly ignored

hunter5 · Post by **hunter5** » 2010-02-15 06:55pm

Formless wrote:
Therefore since we have no easy means to counter it that means Trek wins.
What? No. That's an Appeal to Ignorance if I ever heard one. I know you can do better than that, hunter.

It is all I can think of for the desperation of clinging to a weapon that was erased from history. That is the only reason trekkies even bring up one episode wonders.

marsh8472 · Post by **marsh8472** » 2010-02-16 02:55am

Lets imagine a universe where, for some stupid reason, the timeship still exists because, say, the Empire invaded before Janeway could ram the damn thing. How will the Milky Way Powers use this One and Only Hope Superweapon to defeat the Empire?

Pretty simple actually, change history sufficiently to where the empire wasn't formed. If Mace had killed Palpatine then he never would have formed the galactic empire but Anakin stopped him from doing it. Perhaps if Jango Fett was erased there would have been no clone army made to betray the Jedi. Or if Tipoca City were erased there'd be no clone army. There are plenty of strategic planets in the star wars galaxy that could have prevented the empire from forming. Since the temporal weapon is protected from space-time they do not age. They theoretically have enough time to go to each habitable planet and erase each species until there was nothing less in the universe. Being protected from space time should make them invulnerable to all offensive attacks used to stop them in this process. They wouldn't even have any organized offensive attacks anyway since each erasure would erase everyone's memory of what the krenim weapon was doing and all headway made toward stopping them would be lost.

First problem-- getting it out of the hands of the psychopath who built it. He's looking out for Number One, remember? Second problem-- assuming you can do that, how does causality work? (this is a problem with all time travel strategies to defeat the Empire, so its an important question) Now, assuming that you answer all those questions, what are you going to do with it?

he originally built the weapon to help his people defeat their greatest enemy the Rilnar. Afterward he spent hundreds of years trying to bring back his wife. Not really looking out for number one. The weapon erases all the matter from history. Once the matter gets erased all traces of it past and present are changed and history is rewritten as it would be if those things had never existed. The only thing unchanged would be the krenim weapon since it is phased out of space-time. With the weapon they can attack or erase anything they want, they have unlimited time to achieve their objective and the star wars galaxy has nothing that can damage the ship. Really any attempt to argue that this ship cannot achieve it's mission is just pure denial.

If you use it in fleet battles, its main weapon is entirely pointless. Sure, you can erase one Star Destroyer from time, but individual star destroyers aren't important. In the new timeline the Empire would just have a different Star Destroyer to send, because they don't magically stop making ships just because one star destroyer was never made. Unlike Voyager, Star Destroyers aren't one-of-a-kind wild cards that have huge (undeserved) impacts on history all by themselves; only when taken as a whole Navy of ships can you say they have an impact on Star Wars history. The same is true of the officers on board any given Imperial ship since there are trillions of beings from the Wars galaxy who can take their place in the new timeline. Sure, butterfly effects and all that, but assuming the Empire will invade in the new timeline anyway (as Q once told Picard "You aren't that important [to historical events]") they are still a strategic threat. Maybe that specific battle will never happen, in which case the Time Weapon is sitting out alone in space for no reason apparent to anyone but its crew, and no one but them will see any advantage.

maybe eraseing a certain ship or certain crew member won't dismantle the empire on its own or maybe it will. In the episode "year of hell pt 2" erasing a simple comet stopped all life from evolving in that system causing 8000 civilizations to cease to exist. It could be as simple as erasing a passing comet or some other asteronomical phenomia that could change evolutionary history itself. Or if you want a more direct approach erasing a species in the empire from time by attacking their homeworld.

Maybe the ship's more conventional weapons are of tactical value? Well, no. Lets assume for a simplicity's sake that the "Temporal Torpedoes" used by the non-timeship using krenim are roughly the same as what the Time Ship itself was using for conventional weapons. Their main advantage of the temporal torpedoes we saw throughout the episode was their ability to puncture the shields of enemy ships, but other than that they were far less than stellar as weapons. The damn things had a habit of not even exploding, and when they did they obviously are nowhere near kiloton level firepower or else Tuvok would have lost a lot more than his eyesight, to say the fucking least. They won't even tickle the thick durasteel armor plating of a Star Destroyer. What about defenses? Well, lets remember that the timeship itself was destroyed by ramming tactics which not only mortally wounded the ship, but caused its main weapon to backfire and erase itself from time. Oops. So much for it being a tactically important superweapon!

that whole thing about tuvok being blind instead of dead as proof of a krenim torpedo's low yield won't hold since that was a malfunctioning warhead fragment and since it had malfunctioned anyway it's not a good canadite torepedo to make assumptions on. Chronoton torpedos should be able to pass through solid matter as well as shields. Their hull won't be a very effective barrior to their torpedos. With the krenim weapons fast rate of fire they could take down star destroyers in no time. The temporal core was deactivated because of mutany. When the temporal core is deactivated it is no longer protected from space-time allowing them to take damage. Their defenses alone would ensure that they cannot lose against the empire. How can you defeat an enemy that cannot be destroyed and lives forever? So there's no way star wars and defeat the krenim weapon, that's just common sense. The only question we are even humoring here is whether the krenim weapon can destroy the empire.

So how about strategic warfare? You could use it as a counter to the Death Star, but then the problem is getting close enough to fire the main weapon without eating turbolaser fire. And if you can pull off that unlikely stunt, you have the same problem as destroying individual Star Destroyers; one Death Star is insignificant to either Star Wars History or to the strategic threat the Empire poses. You will still be overrun by the Imperial Navy, which may even contain another Death Star (because again, its not a one-of-a-kind weapon). You would have to erase the Death Star's blueprints themselves from history to make sure the Empire won't have Death Stars, which would be no mean feat since it would mean having to enter the Star Wars galaxy, locate the blueprints, and try and survive long enough in said hostile environment to get a shot off. That would be like trying to find a needle in a landfill while being chased by fucking Terminators and you are a puny fleshling who moves slower than them and is severely outgunned.

This weapon is protected from space-time and cannot take damage. The empire can throw everything they have at it and the ship and crew onboard would be undisturbed from it. If you destroy the death star you would be erasing millions of soldiers of the empire which could only have a negative effect. Perhaps it would changes history sufficiently where they would be overrun by some other power or it could shorten the empire's territory and/or technical advancements. In the voyager episode annorax said he erased thousands of worlds and billions of lives. One of the civilizations in particular was another empire called the Alsuran Empire. You seem to think that size and firepower are the things that matter here. Those are the things that matter the least against a weapon like this.

If you can pull off erasing the Death Star from time it would have an effect on Star Wars history, but you have no idea what effect if any it will have on the actual strategic threat the Empire poses. After all, the Empire developed other super weapons besides the Death Star which arguably are more important to fighting the Milky Way powers such as World Devestators. You could try erasing the plans to Star Destroyers, but then the Empire would come at you with Acclamators and other equally powerful vessels in the revised timeline.

usually they erase colonies and planets. The homeworld of each of these species is a one-of-a-kind thing that cannot be replaced. The krenim weapon has the speed capability to traverse the entire star wars galaxy in about 300 years. Through interigation of local people from star wars and studying the history of the empire, data publically available to any local, it's only a matter of finding out which targets to strike. Are there targets that can cause no effect to the empire? sure. That's all you're really trying to do here I think. Discrediting the weapons power by trying to find examples of where the weapon won't erase the empire. There are targets that will erase the empire and that's what you should be concerned with.

Maybe you could go on the offensive and erase Coruscant and the Emperor? (good fucking luck, you are going to need it) Unfortunately for you the history of the Star Wars galaxy does not depend on either of those; there are other planets that could take the role of "political center of the galaxy," and as for Palpatine, the political situation of the late Old Republic was so volatile that it was only a matter of time before someone like him (who may or may not be a Sith) hijacked control of things. In other words, you will only change the nature of the threat you will eventually face, you have not eliminated it.

They wouldn't need luck to erase Coruscant and the Emperor. The krenim weapon is a force of nature that cannot be stoped by any weapons. If it were impossible to stop the empire, then it wouldn't have been overthrown by the rebellion in return of the jedi. If you really wanted to get nit picky about the whole thing, they could simply travel to each inhabited planet and erase every species from time that ever existed in the whole star wars galaxy. It wouldn't be a question of if the krenim weapon could do this, just a question of how long it would take.

Like I said before, the Empire has thousands of years of technological development and who knows how many millions to billions of star systems as an advantage over the Trek powers. One small ripple in a huge fucking ocean isn't going to magically make it into a dinky little puddle, and no amount of erasing little things like individual blueprints, starships, or people from Star Wars history is going to stop them from being a strategic threat. The argument that the Krenim Time weapon (and other time travel strategies) is some kind of "win" button is a flawed one completely broken because you are thinking about history the wrong way. What is important in history in the long term isn't the individual events or individual people involved. The things that truly impact history are trends like the Dawn of Agriculture, the Industrial Revolution, climate changes, population changes, cultural movements, scientific advancements, etc..

The planets around the inner core of the star wars universe would devestiate them. Erasing comets affected the formation of the primotial soup of thousands of planets and stopped life from ever forming. Really if you find the right object to erase the empire would be gone in the blink of an eye.

In "Year of Hell" the villain had the advantage that the civilizations he was messing with were centralized around single planets; change something which effects the history of that planet as a whole, and you massively change the history of everyone in the quaint little region of space occupied by the Krenim and their enemies. He was also dealing with a one-of-a-kind vessel (Voyager) whose mere presence could bring about enormous changes (thanks the insanity of its commanding officer). But the Empire is an unimaginably massive entity thousands of years ahead of the Milky way powers in terms of technological and industrial development with capabilities far outstripping everyone in Trek save perhaps the Q in terms of power, and that power is decentralized, and there is no one-of-a-kind wild card like Voyager you can eliminate which will change any of this. The more massive the civilization, the more insignificant the frankly oversold "butterfly effect" is to history; everything just averages out. Trek vs Wars still boils down to an apes vs angels problem no matter how you slice it. The Krenim weapon and other time machines aren't worth the materials they are made of.

Once you tinker with history enough to where the empire no longer exists you're more likely to see factions of power that compete with each other than you are a single galactic empire. The conditions in the video were that star wars needs to destroy the krenim ship to win (which they can't). All the krenim have to do is destroy the empire and the rebellion to win. If they get erased there would be some other power in control sure but that power would not be the empire. The conditions in the video were not to erase all life in the star wars galaxy. But even if that were the case they could do that too given enough time.

Lastly, unless everyone in the Milky Way has Voyager's magic "temporal shielding" any change to history changes everyone's history who isn't on the timeship. No one will know you used it, and no one will care because effectively it never happened.

The star trek and star wars universe are mutually exclusive. Erasing star wars history won't affect star trek history. Plus we'll know they used it since we are the observers. And we'll know that with a single ship the entire empire was erased. That's the whole point.

Formless · Post by **Formless** » 2010-02-16 04:20am

marsh8472 wrote:Pretty simple actually, change history sufficiently to where the empire wasn't formed.

This is going to be a looooooooong insipid read, isn't it.

If Mace had killed Palpatine then he never would have formed the galactic empire but Anakin stopped him from doing it. Perhaps if Jango Fett was erased there would have been no clone army made to betray the Jedi.

Oh, Jesus. Why am I not surprised that the troll hasn't watched Year of Hell.

The Krenim Weapon is NOT a surgical tool, fucktard. It doesn't magically reach out and erase specific actors in history, it shoots a huge fucking ray beam of some sort which erases whatever it hits from history. That limits it to erasing targets no smaller than a building, how is it supposed to magically go back in time (a capability it never showed) and stop these events from happening? For that matter, how is its user supposed to even find these things in the Star Wars galaxy and survive long enough to get a shot off?

Or if Tipoca City were erased there'd be no clone army.

Congratulations, if you even manage to get to Kamino at Trek Warp speeds (hint hint, warp is slow as shit) now Palpatine will take over the galaxy using Droids and the Separatist movement. Oh, yeah, I guess you forgot that Palps was a master of creating Win-Win scenario's like that? Forgot he was playing both sides?

There are plenty of strategic planets in the star wars galaxy that could have prevented the empire from forming.

If you erase one strategically important planet from time, another will rise to take its place in the new timeline. Again, go back and watch Year of Hell. This is PRECISELY the problem the main villain had when using this retarded thing.

Since the temporal weapon is protected from space-time they do not age. They theoretically have enough time to go to each habitable planet and erase each species until there was nothing less in the universe.

No, because they are in hostile territory. If they managed to get into the Wars Galaxy, they are effectively on everyone's "shoot it" list. The Wars galaxy has sensors that can pick up and track targets moving at FTL, and we know that the Time Ship exists in the Present and flies at warp speeds which are known to be excruciatingly slow compared to hyperdrive. The instant they get into the Wars Galaxy to do any of this mischief they will be hunted down and shot. Or do you think the Wars powers will just passively let the Krenim weapon into their space un-molested?

Here's a tip: when dealing with one-episode wonders, in general if the Federation Hero's of the show can do it, so can the Empire. We know that its possible to track the Krenim weapon down and confront it in combat, because this is exactly what Janeway did in Year of Hell. And before you say "well, yeah, she had 'temporal shields'" remember that every time it used its main weapon it showed that it exists in normal space, and can be shot at. In fact, if I remember correctly it took a moment to shoot. In that crucial moment it can be shot, and whereas the Trek crews just stand there like deer in the headlights, Imperial Crews when confronted with obvious aggression don't even wait for the order to open fire. They just do. Proper military training is like that.

Being protected from space time should make them invulnerable to all offensive attacks used to stop them in this process.

Bullshit. We saw that the ship exists in real space, and that it can be attacked with normal weapons. How the fuck do you think the Krenim Weapon was destroyed in the first place, moron?

They wouldn't even have any organized offensive attacks anyway since each erasure would erase everyone's memory of what the krenim weapon was doing and all headway made toward stopping them would be lost.

Care to provide any evidence at all for any of your assertions, troll? The Krenim Weapon clearly exists in real space, and clearly is a part of the timeline itself-- otherwise, the end of Year of Hell makes no sense whatsoever. If they enter Wars space, they will leave a record of this event. Regardless of how the timeline changes, its rational to assume that this event would still be recorded no matter how things unfold. The only issue is that the Empire cannot know what the capabilities of the weapon are. They will still treat it as a threat, and they will still shoot it on sight as soon as they know it is a threat to them.

*six lines of dead space*

You know, you don't have to waste so much goddamn space on the page. And I'm not talking about your general brainlessness either.

he originally built the weapon to help his people defeat their greatest enemy the Rilnar. Afterward he spent hundreds of years trying to bring back his wife. Not really looking out for number one.

Oh, for the love of fuck. Are you this completely fucking stupid? Or are you just incapable of seeing when you contradict yourself?

The weapon erases all the matter from history. Once the matter gets erased all traces of it past and present are changed and history is rewritten as it would be if those things had never existed.

Thus making sure no one at all cares or even knows that this event took place because effectively it didn't because the matter never existed.

The only thing unchanged would be the krenim weapon since it is phased out of space-time.

I already refuted this bullshit. If it exists outside of time (which is itself an incoherent idea) then it can't erase itself from history. Which it did. Fuckwit.

With the weapon they can attack or erase anything they want,

Anything which can be targeted by capital ship weapons, you mean.

they have unlimited time to achieve their objective and the star wars galaxy has nothing that can damage the ship.

More un-evidenced nonsense contradicted by the events of Year of Hell.

Really any attempt to argue that this ship cannot achieve it's mission is just pure denial.

Because you say so, right? Sorry, that doesn't fly around here.

In the episode "year of hell pt 2" erasing a simple comet stopped all life from evolving in that system causing 8000 civilizations to cease to exist.

Only because those civilizations were restricted to a single planetary system. Unlike the Empire.

Formless · Post by **Formless** » 2010-02-16 05:30am

ghetto edit:

Or if you want a more direct approach erasing a species in the empire from time by attacking their homeworld.

Which you will never get to without getting shot to hell. And when you do, you find out that there are so many species that it just doesn't matter. Besides, the Empire is predominantly human, and the historical records don't say what the human homeworld is in Star Wars. Which reminds me... where exactly are you going to get a record of Star Wars history? I mean, a lot of the things you propose requires an intimate understanding of the events in Star Wars, why do you take it for granted that the Krenim know what they are supposed to shoot? They didn't even know Voyager would enter their territory, for crying out loud. You act as if they are omniscient, when we know this is far from true.

that whole thing about tuvok being blind instead of dead as proof of a krenim torpedo's low yield won't hold since that was a malfunctioning warhead fragment and since it had malfunctioned anyway it's not a good canadite torepedo to make assumptions on.

Unexploded ordinance doesn't magically lose its yield, fucktard. I dare you to try handling unexploded ordinance in real life. I'm amazed anyone could possibly make such a mind numbingly ignorant argument.

Chronoton torpedos should be able to pass through solid matter as well as shields. Their hull won't be a very effective barrior to their torpedos. With the krenim weapons fast rate of fire they could take down star destroyers in no time. The temporal core was deactivated because of mutany. When the temporal core is deactivated it is no longer protected from space-time allowing them to take damage.

Wank wank wank. Got any evidence for any of this, fucktard? Didn't think so. I also like the hilarity of the "rate of fire" statement: if I point a machine gun at mount Everest apparently I can shoot the mountain peak off because my gun has such a high rate of fire!

Also, again see my rule of thumb. If it can't destroy Voyager, it doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of destroying a Star Destroyer.

Their defenses alone would ensure that they cannot lose against the empire.

Evidence plz.

How can you defeat an enemy that cannot be destroyed and lives forever?

I dunno, how did Janeway do it? Oh, yeah. She rammed it with her ship. Her ship which isn't supposed to even be able to interact with this magic one-shot weapon. Fucktard.

So there's no way star wars and defeat the krenim weapon, that's just common sense.

And its just common sense that Earth is the center of the universe, and that God watches you masturbate. Wait... no that's just stupid. Common sense isn't.

This weapon is protected from space-time and cannot take damage. The empire can throw everything they have at it and the ship and crew onboard would be undisturbed from it.

More of the same.

If you destroy the death star you would be erasing millions of soldiers of the empire which could only have a negative effect. Perhaps it would changes history sufficiently where they would be overrun by some other power or it could shorten the empire's territory and/or technical advancements. In the voyager episode annorax said he erased thousands of worlds and billions of lives. One of the civilizations in particular was another empire called the Alsuran Empire.

There are over six billion people living on Earth right at this moment. The Star Wars Galaxy holds by all estimates thousands to millions of planets at least, some of which (like coruscant) can probably sustain many times as many people as Earth can. That is orders of magnitude more people than you can even imagine, and makes Annorax's self reported numbers look pathetic. It also calls his numbers into question-- is he including colonies and primitive worlds that never amounted to anything? You really have no idea how little impact one million people is going to have when those kinds of numbers are in play.

You seem to think that size and firepower are the things that matter here. Those are the things that matter the least against a weapon like this.

Firepower is what is going to blow you to scrap the instant you drop out of warp to fire this magic wank gun, so yeah, it is important. Again, do you think the Empire is just going to sit there and let you shoot at them without shooting back? If you answered yes, you are a moron.

The homeworld of each of these species is a one-of-a-kind thing that cannot be replaced.

The existence or non-existence of any given species won't change a damn thing in a galaxy with thousands of sentient species at lowest estimates.

The krenim weapon has the speed capability to traverse the entire star wars galaxy in about 300 years.

Congratulations, even the slowest Wars ship can do that in a matter of days.

You really don't understand how much of a slaughter this will be, because you obviously haven't taken the time to understand what you are up against.

Through interigation of local people from star wars and studying the history of the empire, data publically available to any local, it's only a matter of finding out which targets to strike.

And the act of doing so means forfeiting all pretense that you do not interact with the larger universe, and means coming into contact with a civilization that wants you dead. Congratulations, you are well on your way to getting buttfucked at blasterpoint already.

Are there targets that can cause no effect to the empire? sure. That's all you're really trying to do here I think. Discrediting the weapons power by trying to find examples of where the weapon won't erase the empire.

Because there are none, you moron. At least, none which the operators of the Krenim weapon can reasonably get to or even learn about without getting found out and blown to space dust.

There are targets that will erase the empire and that's what you should be concerned with.

Name one.

They wouldn't need luck to erase Coruscant and the Emperor. The krenim weapon is a force of nature that cannot be stoped by any weapons.

Any weapons except Voyager ramming it. Seriously, how any honest person with two braincells could miss this point is beyond me.

If it were impossible to stop the empire, then it wouldn't have been overthrown by the rebellion in return of the jedi.

The rebellion was using the same level of technology with the same capabilities as the Empire. The Milky Way powers (including the Krenim) aren't. This is a classic trektard fallacy. The ships and equipment used by the Rebellion is just as far out of the Trek powers league as the Imperial equipment and ships.

The planets around the inner core of the star wars universe would devestiate them. Erasing comets affected the formation of the primotial soup of thousands of planets and stopped life from ever forming. Really if you find the right object to erase the empire would be gone in the blink of an eye.

Did the words "needle in a landfill" mean nothing to you?

In fact, I haven't even done it justice. This is like trying to find a needle floating around Alpha Centuari using a little dinky telescope. Good motherfucking luck accomplishing that feat.

Also, now you get do be destroyed by one of the older, forgotten civilizations from Star Wars! Yay!

Go back and watch Year of Hell. This is exactly the problem the villain in that episode faced every time he used the Krenim weapon. I seriously cannot understand how you missed this.

Once you tinker with history enough to where the empire no longer exists you're more likely to see factions of power that compete with each other than you are a single galactic empire.

And each and every faction has enough firepower to kill you on their own, while simultaneously waging war against two others because the Wars powers are just that far out of Trek's league. You really have no sense of scale. At all.

The star trek and star wars universe are mutually exclusive. Erasing star wars history won't affect star trek history.

That wasn't what you were arguing earlier.

Plus we'll know they used it since we are the observers. And we'll know that with a single ship the entire empire was erased. That's the whole point.

A win that no one in-universe knows happened is not a win, no matter how much you try and make it out to be.

Formless · Post by **Formless** » 2010-02-16 06:51am

Lets try the story method of explaining this to you. You are Annorax, motherfucking craziest dude in the galaxy (and that's saying a lot!). You have your magic time-erasure gun, and have recently learned that a wormhole has opened up to another galaxy in your domain. Invaders with weapons orders of magnitude more powerful than you have ever seen before have established a forward position to concur the galaxy. Its up to you to save it all with your magic gun!

So you approach the wormhole at maximum warp. Long before you get there you have already been detected and tracked by the Empire's perimeter defenses. At over a lightyear away from your target you are suddenly yanked out of warp by an interdictor class cruser sent to intercept you. You charge your weapon and erase it from time! Or, well, you try, but its still there, only with a different plaque and nametag. You charge your weapon again, thinking something must have malfunctioned, when suddenly a barrage of turbolaser fire engulfs your ship and blasts it to kingdom come because in this timeline this interdictor crew has more combat experience and better reflexes.

Imperial firepower 1 treknowank 0

marsh8472 · Post by **marsh8472** » 2010-02-16 06:53am

Oh, Jesus. Why am I not surprised that the troll hasn't watched Year of Hell.

oh I've watched most star trek episodes so many times even the lyrics are seared into my brain. I'm going to prove to you that it's you who didn't watch the episode. Just do me the favor of not giving up without a fight no matter how stupid I make you feel.

The Krenim Weapon is NOT a surgical tool, fucktard. It doesn't magically reach out and erase specific actors in history, it shoots a huge fucking ray beam of some sort which erases whatever it hits from history. That limits it to erasing targets no smaller than a building, how is it supposed to magically go back in time (a capability it never showed) and stop these events from happening? For that matter, how is its user supposed to even find these things in the Star Wars galaxy and survive long enough to get a shot off?

sure it can erase specific people. It's just overkill as you say, they can take the whole planet with them.

Here are the ships characteristics found at http://www.st-intelligence.com/ship_dat ... /ktemp.php

The Krenim temporal weapon ship was built at the height of the Krenim Imperium over two hundred years ago. This ship is impervious to any conventional weapons as it is phased out of normal time-space, the ship is also protected from changes in the timeline and the crew's aging was halted.

and at http://www.ditl.org/index.php?daymain=/ ... imtimeship

The Krenim Timeship was a large craft which was able to perform temporal incursions, removing specific objects from space-time in both past, present and future. This act would generate a temporal shock wave which would rapidly generate an altered timeline. The Timeship operated defensive systems which allowed it to operate outside of normal space-time, rendering it invulnerable to all conventional weaponry.

^that's how it can "survive long enough to get a shot off" as you asked. I'm surprised you didn't know at least that much.

and it can stop events from happening by erasing objects that had a causal effect to make the event happen in the first place.

Congratulations, if you even manage to get to Kamino at Trek Warp speeds (hint hint, warp is slow as shit) now Palpatine will take over the galaxy using Droids and the Separatist movement. Oh, yeah, I guess you forgot that Palps was a master of creating Win-Win scenario's like that? Forgot he was playing both sides?

sure the krenim weapon's warp 6 capability limits it but given the speed of warp 6 and the size of the star wars galaxy it would only take 300 years to cross from one side of the galaxy to the other. And if they're erasing every planet they come across on the way, you're talking about significant changes in history going on. Also the crew on that ship do not age. They were on that ship for hundreds of years before voyager came along. They have the time to get from one place to another and since they are protected from space-time there's nothing to stop them. It wouldn't be that hard to change historical events sufficiently enough to stop Palpatine from even being born.

If you erase one strategically important planet from time, another will rise to take its place in the new timeline. Again, go back and watch Year of Hell. This is PRECISELY the problem the main villain had when using this retarded thing.

Erasing that comet would have wiped out all life within 50 light years. If your claim were true then we would have seen a planet rise in take their place in that system. There are only so many star systems in the star wars galaxy. I believe there are some 460 named planets in the star wars galaxy. What happens when all intelligent life on planets capable of supporting life are erased. You would turn out to be wrong. It could only hold true if there were infinite planets available.

Sure it could take thousands of years to eliminate all intelligent life in star wars but to just eliminate the empire wouldn't take long. There's no reason to assume that every historical timeline needs to lead to a galactic empire. That just seems niave to assume that

.

No, because they are in hostile territory. If they managed to get into the Wars Galaxy, they are effectively on everyone's "shoot it" list. The Wars galaxy has sensors that can pick up and track targets moving at FTL, and we know that the Time Ship exists in the Present and flies at warp speeds which are known to be excruciatingly slow compared to hyperdrive. The instant they get into the Wars Galaxy to do any of this mischief they will be hunted down and shot. Or do you think the Wars powers will just passively let the Krenim weapon into their space un-molested?

they can shoot all they want. Whether you believe it or not the ship is outside of space-time and cannot be damaged by any of their weapons.

OBRIST: Sir, six vessels are approaching our position.
ANNORAX: Identify.
OBRIST: Three Nihydron warships, two Mawasi cruisers, and Voyager.
ANNORAX: We're outside space-time, impervious to their weapons. Let them come.

ANNORAX: You surprise me, Obrist, After so many years you still perceive time through conventional eyes. Never is a word that has no meaning here. As long as we stay on this vessel, protected from space-time, we have all eternity to accomplish our mission.

It doesn't matter how much you whine and complain about the ship being visible. The characteristics of the vessel is that it is protected form space-time and cannot be harmed by weapons or anything else. We can see this when the ships attacked the weapon ship, it caused no damage to the krenim weapon ship. When the crew mutinied and deactivated the temporal core then it phased back into normal space-time and became vulnerable to weapons. That's when voyager was able to destroy it. In normal situations the ship is simply invulnerable to any attack.

Here's a tip: when dealing with one-episode wonders, in general if the Federation Hero's of the show can do it, so can the Empire. We know that its possible to track the Krenim weapon down and confront it in combat, because this is exactly what Janeway did in Year of Hell.

voyager was only able to track the krenim weapon down because tom paris gave them the coordinates while on the ship.

And before you say "well, yeah, she had 'temporal shields'" remember that every time it used its main weapon it showed that it exists in normal space, and can be shot at. In fact, if I remember correctly it took a moment to shoot. In that crucial moment it can be shot, and whereas the Trek crews just stand there like deer in the headlights, Imperial Crews when confronted with obvious aggression don't even wait for the order to open fire. They just do. Proper military training is like that.

The main weapon was used while they were still phased outside of space-time. No where does it imply that the weapon can only be used when they're not phased outside of space-time. Their weapon pushes things outside of space-time and does not need to be in normal space-time to do that. Nowhere in the episode or on any trek site does it imply that either. That's just something you made up yourself. I can see you're going to be one of those people that just make things up on a regular basis

I can be generous and say that there's a possibility that their conventional weapons cannot be used while phased because they didn't switch to conventional weapons until after their temporal core got deactivated. But it's still very possible they can still use these weapons too. The ship appears to be protected from space time. There is a field around the ship that prevents the weapons from hitting the vessel. We see this field as the ships tried to fire on it. But you saw that the vessel was able to shoot its weapon at the ships too. So it's possible that the field can prevent weapons from coming in form outside but can allow weapons to enter into normal-space form inside.

Bullshit. We saw that the ship exists in real space, and that it can be attacked with normal weapons. How the fuck do you think the Krenim Weapon was destroyed in the first place, moron?

temporal core got deactivated sending them back into normal space-time and then voyager took that opportunity to destroy it. Dude why even pretend you saw the episode? It's clear you didn't or if you did you just don't remember heh.

Just go watch the episod before you talk next time you fool

Care to provide any evidence at all for any of your assertions, troll? The Krenim Weapon clearly exists in real space, and clearly is a part of the timeline itself-- otherwise, the end of Year of Hell makes no sense whatsoever.

Sure troll. The krenim weapon does not exist in real space. Google around for descriptions of the vessel, they will all tell you the same thing.

Read you fool, read:

http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Krenim_weapon_ship

The ship obtained its power to affect time from its temporal core. When in operation, the core also kept the ship, and everything and everyone on it, outside of normal space-time.

http://www.netmoon.com/startrek/ships/krenim1.htm

This ship also has a temporal field around it that makes the ship impervious to any other weapons technology.

http://www.startrek.com/startrek/view/l ... 23720.html

The ship operated outside of regular space-time, and had the ability to erase an object and all of its influence throughout history.

If they enter Wars space, they will leave a record of this event. Regardless of how the timeline changes, its rational to assume that this event would still be recorded no matter how things unfold. The only issue is that the Empire cannot know what the capabilities of the weapon are. They will still treat it as a threat, and they will still shoot it on sight as soon as they know it is a threat to them.

Once things are erased they don't exist in the past or present. They can't leave a record of erasing something that never existed. Voyager detected the temporal shockwave as the changes were taking place from eliminating the zaul homeworld. Once the temporal shockwave passed you can see they had no memory of the shockwave ever hitting them in the first place. The krenim weapon never existed in the altered time line so no one knows about them there. The empire would be back to square one after each incursion from the krenim weapon is made.

Oh, for the love of fuck. Are you this completely fucking stupid? Or are you just incapable of seeing when you contradict yourself?

sure, it looks like you don't know what a contradiction is though. Annorax makes the weapon to help his people eliminate their enemy. Then afterward he is obsessed with undoing the damage that he caused. It's a selfless act, not a selfish one.

Thus making sure no one at all cares or even knows that this event took place because effectively it didn't because the matter never existed.

I still don't see where you're going with that ramble. Once the empire is erased from history the krenim win. It doesn't matter if the people in the galaxies have no idea what was there before. If anything, that's even worse than your ordinary defeat.

I already refuted this bullshit. If it exists outside of time (which is itself an incoherent idea) then it can't erase itself from history. Which it did. Fuckwit.

na you just stated that they can't do that and threw a temper tantrum on the forum.

Anything which can be targeted by capital ship weapons, you mean.

can a capital ship weapon targer an entire planet? No, I mean exactly what I said. It can erase anything it wants. It shoots, incursion takes place, boom, it's gone.

More un-evidenced nonsense contradicted by the events of Year of Hell.

basic characteristics defined to the vessel and listed on all star trek canon sites... there is an embarrassment of evidence to support this.

Because you say so, right? Sorry, that doesn't fly around here.

I don't need to say it for it to be true. Anyone who does the research will come to the same conclusion. If I say it, you can just take my word for it and save yourself some trouble though. Not sure how the rules apply to me there that's cool that I can be rude though so now I can tell you that you're one of the dumbest morons i've ever seen.

It's a ship that can erase anything, cannot be stoped, and are immortal. Unlimited attempts to alter history, unlimited time to do it, and their warp 6 speed will allow them to get to any target in their galaxy. There is no way to win unless something dirastic happens like if the crew mutinied again.

Only because those civilizations were restricted to a single planetary system. Unlike the Empire.

They have their borders just like most races. When you go after a planet, you destroy the entire species on the planet. It doesn't matter what system they're at. If you're trying to argue that the empire is safe because it's comprised of many races, it's only a matter of targeting the races that are part of the empire. Eventually the empires history is derailed to the point where it never existed. Pretty elementry really.

marsh8472 · Post by **marsh8472** » 2010-02-16 07:00am

Formless wrote:Lets try the story method of explaining this to you. You are Annorax, motherfucking craziest dude in the galaxy (and that's saying a lot!). You have your magic time-erasure gun, and have recently learned that a wormhole has opened up to another galaxy in your domain. Invaders with weapons orders of magnitude more powerful than you have ever seen before have established a forward position to concur the galaxy. Its up to you to save it all with your magic gun!

So you approach the wormhole at maximum warp. Long before you get there you have already been detected and tracked by the Empire's perimeter defenses. At over a lightyear away from your target you are suddenly yanked out of warp by an interdictor class cruser sent to intercept you. You charge your weapon and erase it from time! Or, well, you try, but its still there, only with a different plaque and nametag. You charge your weapon again, thinking something must have malfunctioned, when suddenly a barrage of turbolaser fire engulfs your ship and blasts it to kingdom come because in this timeline this interdictor crew has more combat experience and better reflexes.

Imperial firepower 1 treknowank 0

hmm, yeah I debunked all that already in my last post. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about when it comes to star trek ships. Go watch the year of hell episodes before posting next time you fool

I want to argue with someone that actually understands the situation.

Teleros · Post by **Teleros** » 2010-02-16 07:59am

Formless wrote:Lets try the story method of explaining this to you. You are Annorax, motherfucking craziest dude in the galaxy (and that's saying a lot!). You have your magic time-erasure gun, and have recently learned that a wormhole has opened up to another galaxy in your domain. Invaders with weapons orders of magnitude more powerful than you have ever seen before have established a forward position to concur the galaxy. Its up to you to save it all with your magic gun!

So you approach the wormhole at maximum warp. Long before you get there you have already been detected and tracked by the Empire's perimeter defenses. At over a lightyear away from your target you are suddenly yanked out of warp by an interdictor class cruser sent to intercept you. You charge your weapon and erase it from time! Or, well, you try, but its still there, only with a different plaque and nametag. You charge your weapon again, thinking something must have malfunctioned, when suddenly a barrage of turbolaser fire engulfs your ship and blasts it to kingdom come because in this timeline this interdictor crew has more combat experience and better reflexes.

A more likely outcome:

1. Annorax hears about the Galactic Empire invading. He decides to go save the day, in spite of his obsessions.
2. Several months later, years from his destination, an Imperial Star Destroyer, having long-ago stomped all over the rest of the ST galaxy, detects Annorax's ship. In spite of Star Wars ships' temporal shielding, it's erased.
3. No wait, it's now a different Star Destroyer. It's erased.
4a. A couple of thousand replacement Star Destroyers later, and Annorax is pissed off enough to try and ignore them. Only this time the Star Destroyer reports this. Interdictors are sent out to force it out of Warp and engage. They fail, but because the Empire isn't retarded, word gets out of the magic disappearing ray. Hey, perhaps Annorax even threatens to erase the Empire.
4b. Having erased so many Star Destroyers, Annorax's ship runs out of power. It's destroyed or captured. by the next Imperial ship to come across it. If so, disregard the rest of this list.
5. The Empire now indulges itself in a massive R&D project with the (perhaps forced) help of the locals and their funky technology.
6. Twenty years later, Annorax arrives at the Empire's wormhole. Unfortunately, the Empire sent ships past Annorax's ship, conquered his oh-so-mighty Krenim Imperium, and amongst other things, did what Voyager did in reverse-engineering the temporal shielding. Or got some local allies to. Annorax's ship is promptly nuked by a vast armada of ships with funky Voyager / Krenim temporal shielding and Star Wars firepower. With the ship destroyed, the changes it made are undone, and it never existed in the first place.

marsh8472 wrote:You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about when it comes to star trek ships.

Equally, you have no idea about Star Wars ships nor how people would ACTUALLY respond to invasion. Especially a snail pace one.

sure it can erase specific people. It's just overkill as you say, they can take the whole planet with them.

Uhm. We're talking about enabling Mace Windu to defeat Palpatine, presumably by erasing Palpatine or Anakin. But if you erase one of them, you erase (1) Coruscant and (2) Mace Windu as well, given that we've never seen the damn thing be that precise.

The Timeship operated defensive systems which allowed it to operate outside of normal space-time, rendering it invulnerable to all conventional weaponry.

It can be seen and interacted with (eg scanned) by regular stuff. It is therefore not invulnerable.

marsh8472 · Post by **marsh8472** » 2010-02-16 09:23am

1. Annorax hears about the Galactic Empire invading. He decides to go save the day, in spite of his obsessions.
2. Several months later, years from his destination, an Imperial Star Destroyer, having long-ago stomped all over the rest of the ST galaxy, detects Annorax's ship. In spite of Star Wars ships' temporal shielding, it's erased.
3. No wait, it's now a different Star Destroyer. It's erased.
4a. A couple of thousand replacement Star Destroyers later, and Annorax is pissed off enough to try and ignore them. Only this time the Star Destroyer reports this. Interdictors are sent out to force it out of Warp and engage. They fail, but because the Empire isn't retarded, word gets out of the magic disappearing ray. Hey, perhaps Annorax even threatens to erase the Empire.
4b. Having erased so many Star Destroyers, Annorax's ship runs out of power. It's destroyed or captured. by the next Imperial ship to come across it. If so, disregard the rest of this list.
5. The Empire now indulges itself in a massive R&D project with the (perhaps forced) help of the locals and their funky technology.
6. Twenty years later, Annorax arrives at the Empire's wormhole. Unfortunately, the Empire sent ships past Annorax's ship, conquered his oh-so-mighty Krenim Imperium, and amongst other things, did what Voyager did in reverse-engineering the temporal shielding. Or got some local allies to. Annorax's ship is promptly nuked by a vast armada of ships with funky Voyager / Krenim temporal shielding and Star Wars firepower. With the ship destroyed, the changes it made are undone, and it never existed in the first place.

number 2 is kinda funny. Sending a ship that you say destroys star trek would only bring it back to life again after it gets erased.

number 4 is stupid considering the krenim ship lasted for hundreds of years and never was threatened to run out of power.

and temporal shielding wouldn't save them just like it didn't save the ships that tried to attack the krenim weapon. Temporal shielding has the capability of protecting them from being erased from history when something else gets erased. Good luck trying to prove they can figure that out how to make that heh

Equally, you have no idea about Star Wars ships nor how people would ACTUALLY respond to invasion. Especially a snail pace one.

I got all their technical manuals and seen what they do on film, i'd say that gives me an idea. And i'm telling you it doesn't matter. Their weapons wouldn't even scratch the paint on the hull of that krenim ship.

Uhm. We're talking about enabling Mace Windu to defeat Palpatine, presumably by erasing Palpatine or Anakin. But if you erase one of them, you erase (1) Coruscant and (2) Mace Windu as well, given that we've never seen the damn thing be that precise.

So what? what's wrong with erasing them too if the whole point is to get rid of palpatine and/or anakin?

Anyway, here are more quotes from the episode that prove you wrong about the precision

ANNORAX: Yes. I can control the destiny of a single molecule or an entire civilization. How's the wine?

CHAKOTAY: Tom, hold on. You said you could control the destiny of a single molecule. If you made a precise enough calculation could you restore Voyager without harming anyone?
ANNORAX: It is possible but it's extremely difficult. That's why I need your cooperation.

It can be seen and interacted with (eg scanned) by regular stuff. It is therefore not invulnerable.

If that were true then the krenim ship would have taken damage while they were under attack. Despite any scientific holes you try to poke or any statements made from your intuition the weapon is defined to be invulnerable to conventional weapons.

Teleros · Post by **Teleros** » 2010-02-16 09:48am

number 4 is stupid considering the krenim ship lasted for hundreds of years and never was threatened to run out of power.

The point is, there are lots of Star Destroyers, and erasing one will just mean that another gets sent on that very mission.

and temporal shielding wouldn't save them just like it didn't save the ships that tried to attack the krenim weapon. Temporal shielding has the capability of protecting them from being erased from history when something else gets erased. Good luck trying to prove they can figure that out how to make that heh

1. Star Wars ships both have their own kind of temporal shielding (see here) that may help protect them, given that FTL travel = time travel and all that.
2. What do you mean figure out? Voyager did it easily - an occupied Federation shouldn't find it that hard. And that still leaves the option of the Empire racing around the Krenim ship, occupying the Krenim Imperium (with Annorax too far away to turn around and help), and using their familiarity with Star Trek temporal technology to come up with a solution.

I got all their technical manuals and seen what they do on film, i'd say that gives me an idea. And i'm telling you it doesn't matter. Their weapons wouldn't even scratch the paint on the hull of that krenim ship.

Until, after decades of research during which the Krenim erase a bunch of Outer Rim worlds on their ridiculously slow journey towards the core worlds, they come up with a solution.

So what? what's wrong with erasing them too if the whole point is to get rid of palpatine and/or anakin?

Uhm, unintended consequences

?

Anyway, here are more quotes from the episode that prove you wrong about the precision

Trusting in the accuracy of the dialogue of an obvious nutjob is never the best idea. Even then however, you nicely pointed out the problem: even restoring Voyager would be extremely difficult.

If that were true then the krenim ship would have taken damage while they were under attack. Despite any scientific holes you try to poke or any statements made from your intuition the weapon is defined to be invulnerable to conventional weapons.

On-screen visuals > dialogue

. I can see / scan the ship, therefore I am able to bounce photons or whatever off its hull. But I can't focus more photons at it (read: shoot it with an almighty big laser) because... uhm... why not exactly? It's not my fault the writers & special effects people messed up here: a ship that was REALLY immune to radiation would either appear as a 2D silhouette or, if it didn't impede the progress of the radiation, it wouldn't appear at all. As it is though, what we really have here is just a ship with very powerful shields.

Just going to quote the post I made in the other thread related to this, so we don't get this spread out all over the place...

Teleros wrote:
marsh8472 wrote:with all the arguments I haven't seen one that showed a way to stop the krenim weapon with it being protected from space-time. If the ship cannot be stopped then the empire cannot win.
Perhaps the Galactic Empire can't. On the other hand, given how much worse that now-erased Krenim ship made things each time it erased something, it'll probably find itself being royally screwed over by something much worse than Palpatine's Galactic Empire .

What else... oh yeah.

1. The ship doesn't exist any more because, you know, it got erased.
2. Star Wars ships do actually have a kind of temporal shielding. It would be foolish to simply assume that the Krenim's now-erased weapon on the now-erased ship will simply be able to bypass this.
3. I've been having a look at the Memory Alpha page on the ship in question. The now-erased ship was slower than the USS Voyager at Warp speeds, meaning that it would to take decades to get anywhere in the SW Galaxy, whilst all those Star Destroyers cross the galaxy in mere days. I say would because, of course, it doesn't exist any more. Note, by the way, that whilst its travelling at snail pace through the galaxy, the locals will be pouring their resources into developing a means of defeating or withstanding it. Or would be, if it still existed.
4. It needed to enter the atmosphere to fire its weapon against a colony. How would it get through the planetary shields at, say, Coruscant? Do you have proof that its now-erased weapon (or indeed, hull) can bypass Star Wars shields when it can obviously, for example, interact with regular matter? If it has to fire from within a planet's atmosphere, and can't get there... yeah...
5. Related to point #2, Star Wars powers obviously have some good knowledge of how time works. We've even had good old time travel in the EU.
6. Star Trek time travel (and similar phenomena) seems to work on a "many universes" or "parallel universes" model. Which would make the Krenim ship more of a fancy means of hopping between parallel universes than one that actually buggered up time. Which means whilst it's travelling between universes, Star Trek is getting screwed over.
7. The last I checked, quite a few species (humans included) don't have a recorded homeworld in Star Wars. Those worlds that are suggested are all core worlds (see point #3).
8. I haven't watched the episodes related to the ship in some time, but I believe it could communicate with others whilst its magic shields were up. It this is able to interact with normal space-time on at least some level, so its shields aren't all they've cracked up to be. I also notice that, as per your quote from Harry Kim, Federation sensors were able to detect it, and it was clearly visible to the naked eye even! Proof that this will protect it from, say, Palpatine force choking the crew (not that it's important of course: the ship doesn't exist any more)? Also provide proof that it can avoid the other exotic weapons Star Wars societies have available.

Right, that's all the freebies you're getting from me. Go do some proper research before announcing your one-episode wonder will win the war for you.

EnterpriseSovereign · Post by **EnterpriseSovereign** » 2010-02-16 09:52am

marsh8472 wrote:
1. Annorax hears about the Galactic Empire invading. He decides to go save the day, in spite of his obsessions.
2. Several months later, years from his destination, an Imperial Star Destroyer, having long-ago stomped all over the rest of the ST galaxy, detects Annorax's ship. In spite of Star Wars ships' temporal shielding, it's erased.
3. No wait, it's now a different Star Destroyer. It's erased.
4a. A couple of thousand replacement Star Destroyers later, and Annorax is pissed off enough to try and ignore them. Only this time the Star Destroyer reports this. Interdictors are sent out to force it out of Warp and engage. They fail, but because the Empire isn't retarded, word gets out of the magic disappearing ray. Hey, perhaps Annorax even threatens to erase the Empire.
4b. Having erased so many Star Destroyers, Annorax's ship runs out of power. It's destroyed or captured. by the next Imperial ship to come across it. If so, disregard the rest of this list.
5. The Empire now indulges itself in a massive R&D project with the (perhaps forced) help of the locals and their funky technology.
6. Twenty years later, Annorax arrives at the Empire's wormhole. Unfortunately, the Empire sent ships past Annorax's ship, conquered his oh-so-mighty Krenim Imperium, and amongst other things, did what Voyager did in reverse-engineering the temporal shielding. Or got some local allies to. Annorax's ship is promptly nuked by a vast armada of ships with funky Voyager / Krenim temporal shielding and Star Wars firepower. With the ship destroyed, the changes it made are undone, and it never existed in the first place.
number 2 is kinda funny. Sending a ship that you say destroys star trek would only bring it back to life again after it gets erased.

Except you ignored the fact that if one ship is erased from history, another will take its place and do exactly the same to your precious galaxy. Idiot

number 4 is stupid considering the krenim ship lasted for hundreds of years and never was threatened to run out of power.

and temporal shielding wouldn't save them just like it didn't save the ships that tried to attack the krenim weapon. Temporal shielding has the capability of protecting them from being erased from history when something else gets erased. Good luck trying to prove they can figure that out how to make that heh

Once again you ignore that another ship will take the place of the one that was erased, and thus word will get out about it.

Equally, you have no idea about Star Wars ships nor how people would ACTUALLY respond to invasion. Especially a snail pace one.
I got all their technical manuals and seen what they do on film, i'd say that gives me an idea. And i'm telling you it doesn't matter. Their weapons wouldn't even scratch the paint on the hull of that krenim ship.

So by your retarded logic then, you must think it must therefore be immune to the Death Star superlaser as well? Do you have any idea just how utterly insane that is. If the ship was really outside of spacetime, then it shouldn't appear at all. Hell, it might be believable if outside weapons pass through it or somesuch, but guess what, they don't. If you can see it, you can hit it.

Uhm. We're talking about enabling Mace Windu to defeat Palpatine, presumably by erasing Palpatine or Anakin. But if you erase one of them, you erase (1) Coruscant and (2) Mace Windu as well, given that we've never seen the damn thing be that precise.
So what? what's wrong with erasing them too if the whole point is to get rid of palpatine and/or anakin?

Let's say you erase Palpatine. Given the Sith rule of two, another Sith will take his place, just as with the fucking Star Destroyer

Anyway, here are more quotes from the episode that prove you wrong about the precision

ANNORAX: Yes. I can control the destiny of a single molecule or an entire civilization. How's the wine?

CHAKOTAY: Tom, hold on. You said you could control the destiny of a single molecule. If you made a precise enough calculation could you restore Voyager without harming anyone?
ANNORAX: It is possible but it's extremely difficult. That's why I need your cooperation.

Except that he's never demonstrated this level of precision, which is exactly why he spent 200 years trying to undo the damage he did in the first place!

It can be seen and interacted with (eg scanned) by regular stuff. It is therefore not invulnerable.
If that were true then the krenim ship would have taken damage while they were under attack. Despite any scientific holes you try to poke or any statements made from your intuition the weapon is defined to be invulnerable to conventional weapons.

Conventional Trek weapons, SW weapons are orders of magnitude more powerful. Did it not occur to you that the weapons of the Nihydron ships that died first were simply piss-weak, and that the remaining ships were disabled long before they could get more than a few shots off and do any damage? Didn't think so.

marsh8472 · Post by **marsh8472** » 2010-02-16 12:22pm

Except you ignored the fact that if one ship is erased from history, another will take its place and do exactly the same to your precious galaxy. Idiot

Another could take its place. There's no way to know what it would do. I'd say with all the causal chaos the odds of another ship taking its place on the same mission would be astronomical. That assumption is so foolished it's not even worth being touched.

So by your retarded logic then, you must think it must therefore be immune to the Death Star superlaser as well? Do you have any idea just how utterly insane that is. If the ship was really outside of spacetime, then it shouldn't appear at all. Hell, it might be believable if outside weapons pass through it or somesuch, but guess what, they don't. If you can see it, you can hit it.

KIM: That entire vessel's in a state of temporal flux. It's like they exist outside space-time.
PARIS: They're scanning us.
JANEWAY: Get a lock on them.
KIM: I'm trying, but I can't isolate their signals.

A deathstar superlaser? Sure they can withstand that easily. They would probably purposely let them fire several shots at them with that weapon while they moon them out of their window before they got bored and erased it from history. There's some indications that they couldn't scan the ship. The other occurrences could be sophisticated visual scans. Or I can invent some kind of tech explanation like the temporal field around the ship emits photons that allow it to be seen and transmits sensor data in close range for testing purposes. Although that technical explanation isn't even necessary...

Star wars and star trek canon facts don't need scientific justifications to back them up. Being impervious to weapons from being phased outside of space-time is the characteristic given to it by the writers of star trek and is a canon fact. Arguing it is pointless. Although it's kind funny too when you think about it as your official rebuttal: "the krenim weapon can be destroy because I refuse to believe that it is impervious to all conventional weapons and phased outside of space-time regardless of what every official star trek canon source says". It is a fact, in a fictional universe. Your points are only proving that it is a fictional universe and we already know that.

Let's say you erase Palpatine. Given the Sith rule of two, another Sith will take his place, just as with the fucking Star Destroyer

when you erase all matter from the star destroyer, you erase every interaction with that matter that ever occured in history. It could very well prevent the primary source of the building material to make the ships. Kinda like erasing a gold watch ends up having a causual reaction that prevents gold from forming in the mine it was found in. Which would cause difficulty in finding more sources of building material which decreases the number of ships they could make. Or erasing a person can cause several of their ancestors to be erased for metaphysical reasons. That's just an example to show that the scope of time is well beyond your grasp seeing as you're so convinced of one specific outcome.

Except that he's never demonstrated this level of precision, which is exactly why he spent 200 years trying to undo the damage he did in the first place!

But we know from his own words that the ship can do these things. Precision is not necessary to destroy the empire with this weapon either. All it has to do is eliminate all forces, good or bad it doesn't matter since it's not their timeline.

Conventional Trek weapons, SW weapons are orders of magnitude more powerful. Did it not occur to you that the weapons of the Nihydron ships that died first were simply piss-weak, and that the remaining ships were disabled long before they could get more than a few shots off and do any damage? Didn't think so.

heh no you don't understand the concept. Here's another quote from the episode:

PARIS: This ship's temporal core keeps the vessel out of phase with normal space-time, but it's shields are incredibly weak. You take that core offline, and a photon grenade could penetrate the hull.

Shooting at that ship that is not actually there and expecting to cause damage just doesn't make sense, I don't care what yield of firepower you're talking about.

1. Star Wars ships both have their own kind of temporal shielding (see here) that may help protect them, given that FTL travel = time travel and all that.
2. What do you mean figure out? Voyager did it easily - an occupied Federation shouldn't find it that hard. And that still leaves the option of the Empire racing around the Krenim ship, occupying the Krenim Imperium (with Annorax too far away to turn around and help), and using their familiarity with Star Trek temporal technology to come up with a solution.

That site even says Relativistic shielding is not considered shielding. It cannot stop weapons like the temporal shields can. It only protects them from certain types of energy generated in hyperspace travel. Voyagers temporal shields blocked krenim torpedos and generated a level nine temporal disruption. Besides the only real mention of those relativistic shields is from a one paragraph sidenote cartoon story on holonet a site that it shakey when it comes to canon as you can tell with them announcing their corrections on their main page all the time.

Voyager was able to make this shielding because they had access to a krenim torpedo and found the temporal variance. Seven of nine's borg knowledge of temporal shields made that possible. They were only working toward making the shielding because the krenim kept attacking them and this type of shielding just happened to be the same defense against the krenim weapon. Star wars won't be under attack by krenim weapons. Each time an incursion is made they would have lost all memory the krenim weapon and what it was capable of doing therefor no sense of purpose to create that type of technology.

Uhm, unintended consequence

yeah that's your job to become more familiar with what that means.

Trusting in the accuracy of the dialogue of an obvious nutjob is never the best idea. Even then however, you nicely pointed out the problem: even restoring Voyager would be extremely difficult.

difficult yes but he says it's possible

On-screen visuals > dialogue . I can see / scan the ship, therefore I am able to bounce photons or whatever off its hull. But I can't focus more photons at it (read: shoot it with an almighty big laser) because... uhm... why not exactly? It's not my fault the writers & special effects people messed up here: a ship that was REALLY immune to radiation would either appear as a 2D silhouette or, if it didn't impede the progress of the radiation, it wouldn't appear at all. As it is though, what we really have here is just a ship with very powerful shields.

already addressed this (fictional ability in a fictional universe). We are arguing from a fictional universe's point of view. We don't need you to prove that it's a fictional universe. The premise of the ship being outside of space-time is a canon fact. After accepting that premise we no longer need to talk about star wars firepower as a way to stop the weapon.

1. The ship doesn't exist any more because, you know, it got erased.

the matter that the ship was made of got erased. The designer was not erased. You see him at the end and a pad on his desk showing the same visuals that were on the time ship. It's unclear whether another one was made or not.

2. Star Wars ships do actually have a kind of temporal shielding. It would be foolish to simply assume that the Krenim's now-erased weapon on the now-erased ship will simply be able to bypass this.

a specific type of temporal shielding is required. If this relativistic shielding is considered temporal shielding, it's the weakest type of sheidling ever made. It can block energies in hyperspace, not changes in history.

3. I've been having a look at the Memory Alpha page on the ship in question. The now-erased ship was slower than the USS Voyager at Warp speeds, meaning that it would to take decades to get anywhere in the SW Galaxy, whilst all those Star Destroyers cross the galaxy in mere days. I say would because, of course, it doesn't exist any more. Note, by the way, that whilst its travelling at snail pace through the galaxy, the locals will be pouring their resources into developing a means of defeating or withstanding it. Or would be, if it still existed.

since the crew don't age, taking decades to get somewhere is not a problem. They can also erased targets on a regular basis on the way there. After each incursion the locals would lose their memories of what is happening and not bother trying to find ways to defeat the weapon. Example: if the ship erased 1 planet the locals wouldn't worry because nothing was erased as far as they know, then another planet gets erased and still nothing was erased as far as they know, etc.. no cause for concern.

4. It needed to enter the atmosphere to fire its weapon against a colony. How would it get through the planetary shields at, say, Coruscant? Do you have proof that its now-erased weapon (or indeed, hull) can bypass Star Wars shields when it can obviously, for example, interact with regular matter? If it has to fire from within a planet's atmosphere, and can't get there... yeah...

their weapon is temporal and phased out of space-time. The weapon would fire like it wasn't even there. Plus the ship should be able to just fly right though the planetary shield since it's phased outside of space-time. Any attempt to prove otherwise is only attempts to prove that star trek is fiction which you would have to be delusional to not already know that.

5. Related to point #2, Star Wars powers obviously have some good knowledge of how time works. We've even had good old time travel in the EU.

All incidents of time travel in star wars are only partially documented and due to unusual hyperdrive malfunctions, the effects of the Force, or similar exotic events. Usually people like this insert the word "obvious" in a lame attempt to try to pass off a point as obvious. If they had good knowledge of how time worked they would have temporal shielding and would resemble the federation in the 29th century with their technology to scan time and travel to any point they wished. The krenim know more about temporal science than star wars does yet the krenim ship was able to alter the krenim imperioms history and even the krenim imperium wasn't able to do anything about it.

6. Star Trek time travel (and similar phenomena) seems to work on a "many universes" or "parallel universes" model. Which would make the Krenim ship more of a fancy means of hopping between parallel universes than one that actually buggered up time. Which means whilst it's traveling between universes, Star Trek is getting screwed over.

in some cases it does like in the new star trek movie. In this case it doesn't. They change the current timeline that they're in, they make that quite clear. It's similiar to the models of time travel shown in the "yesterday's enterprise" TNG, TOS: "The City on the Edge of Forever", Star Trek First Contact, "Future's End" voyager, etc...

7. The last I checked, quite a few species (humans included) don't have a recorded homeworld in Star Wars. Those worlds that are suggested are all core worlds (see point #3).

I think I read somewhere that humans were abducted and transported to the star wars galaxy where they colonized the planets. In my scenario, Q transports them there. Naturally star wars and star trek don't interact. In the verses debate we operate under the premise that the ship is in star wars space in order to make the confrontation possible. This objection is refuted by accepting the premise in the hypothetical situation.

8. I haven't watched the episodes related to the ship in some time, but I believe it could communicate with others whilst its magic shields were up. It this is able to interact with normal space-time on at least some level, so its shields aren't all they've cracked up to be. I also notice that, as per your quote from Harry Kim, Federation sensors were able to detect it, and it was clearly visible to the naked eye even! Proof that this will protect it from, say, Palpatine force choking the crew (not that it's important of course: the ship doesn't exist any more)? Also provide proof that it can avoid the other exotic weapons Star Wars societies have available.

Doesn't matter. Star trek writers give the vessel the characteristic that it is impervious to weapons from being phased outside normal space-time. Any attempt to find inconsistency in these properties is just an attempt to use a proof of star trek being fictional to prove that the krenim ship is not phased outside normal-space which contradicts star trek canon. If the vessel wasn't outside normal-space then the crew would have shown signs of aging after 200 years, they wouldn't keep making references in the episode that it was outside space-time and the ship would have taken damage when it was attacked while the temporal core was online.

Teleros · Post by **Teleros** » 2010-02-16 01:57pm

Another could take its place. There's no way to know what it would do.

Say what? You are sending a ship in that direction anyway. If ship one is not available, you send ship two. What part of that is hard to understand?

KIM: That entire vessel's in a state of temporal flux. It's like they exist outside space-time.
PARIS: They're scanning us.
JANEWAY: Get a lock on them.
KIM: I'm trying, but I can't isolate their signals.

If there are signals to be isolated then they must be coming from something, y'know?

Or I can invent some kind of tech explanation like the temporal field around the ship emits photons that allow it to be seen and transmits sensor data in close range for testing purposes. Although that technical explanation isn't even necessary...

You've never heard of Occam's Razor, have you.

when you erase all matter from the star destroyer, you erase every interaction with that matter that ever occured in history. It could very well prevent the primary source of the building material to make the ships.

Conceivably, but unlikely. To use your gold watch analogy, it would have to be from a ridiculously small gold mine, because the mass of gold in a watch will hardly be missed in the formation of larger deposits.

But we know from his own words that the ship can do these things.

Annorax is a nutjob who, whilst claiming he can control the destiny of a single molecule, screws up history time after time when making these changes. I am not going to treat every word that escapes his mouth as gospel, and neither should anyone else with half a brain.

That site even says Relativistic shielding is not considered shielding. It cannot stop weapons like the temporal shields can. It only protects them from certain types of energy generated in hyperspace travel. Voyagers temporal shields blocked krenim torpedos and generated a level nine temporal disruption. Besides the only real mention of those relativistic shields is from a one paragraph sidenote cartoon story on holonet a site that it shakey when it comes to canon as you can tell with them announcing their corrections on their main page all the time.

Oh boy. Relativistic shielding not considered shielding only because nobody uses temporal weapons in Star Wars! Hence why it isn't lumped in with the regular defensive shields.
As for the source's canon status, well... there is an official Lucasfilm policy, and it is still canon. Trust me, you don't want to start arguing about canon here...

Star wars won't be under attack by krenim weapons. Each time an incursion is made they would have lost all memory the krenim weapon and what it was capable of doing therefor no sense of purpose to create that type of technology.

Because the entire attack force will be wiped out / erased, right? With no survivors or distant observers?

yeah that's your job to become more familiar with what that means.

Oh dear. Look, let's say you want to stop the rise of the Galactic Empire, so you erase Coruscant from history whilst shooting Palpatine / Anakin. Now what? Something will take its place, and in a civilisation as old as that of Star Wars the chances of the Krenim ship even being able to gather the information necessary to work out the result is slim to none. And, given their abysmal record when they HAD that information, chances are they'll wipe out Coruscant only to find the "Galactic Imperium of Mankind" or whatever giving them hell instead.
NOW do you understand what I'm getting at?

already addressed this (fictional ability in a fictional universe). We are arguing from a fictional universe's point of view. We don't need you to prove that it's a fictional universe. The premise of the ship being outside of space-time is a canon fact. After accepting that premise we no longer need to talk about star wars firepower as a way to stop the weapon.

On-screen visuals still outweigh dialogue. I don't care where Annorax & co claim they are: they can be clearly seen and interacted with in this universe, their magic shielding notwithstanding.

the matter that the ship was made of got erased. The designer was not erased. You see him at the end and a pad on his desk showing the same visuals that were on the time ship. It's unclear whether another one was made or not.

What makes you think he'll have the time or resources to build another with the Empire kicking down the door? Because unlike the piddly little local conflict that caused him to make the original, any assault from the Empire is going to be swift and unstoppable.

a specific type of temporal shielding is required. If this relativistic shielding is considered temporal shielding, it's the weakest type of sheidling ever made. It can block energies in hyperspace, not changes in history.

Given that it manages to maintain the flow of time properly around a ship travelling faster than light, I'd say it's pretty damn impressive actually.

since the crew don't age, taking decades to get somewhere is not a problem. They can also erased targets on a regular basis on the way there. After each incursion the locals would lose their memories of what is happening and not bother trying to find ways to defeat the weapon. Example: if the ship erased 1 planet the locals wouldn't worry because nothing was erased as far as they know, then another planet gets erased and still nothing was erased as far as they know, etc.. no cause for concern.

First off, have we ever seen it erase a planet? Or just the stuff on it? It'd be amusing to see the Krenim erase Coruscant, only to find it appears all over again under a different name below them.
In addition, you assume that it'll be erase itself into the galaxy without being stopped. You don't need to remember the last attack to notice this whatever-it-is getting close you know...

their weapon is temporal and phased out of space-time. The weapon would fire like it wasn't even there. Plus the ship should be able to just fly right though the planetary shield since it's phased outside of space-time. Any attempt to prove otherwise is only attempts to prove that star trek is fiction which you would have to be delusional to not already know that.

If the weapon / ship is "phased out of space-time" then how in God's name can it affect this space-time, huh? If it can fly right through a shield where do we see regular Voyager weaponry flying right through the ship?

All incidents of time travel in star wars are only partially documented and due to unusual hyperdrive malfunctions, the effects of the Force, or similar exotic events. Usually people like this insert the word "obvious" in a lame attempt to try to pass off a point as obvious. If they had good knowledge of how time worked they would have temporal shielding and would resemble the federation in the 29th century with their technology to scan time and travel to any point they wished. The krenim know more about temporal science than star wars does yet the krenim ship was able to alter the krenim imperioms history and even the krenim imperium wasn't able to do anything about it.

Good knowledge of how time works =/= ability to travel in it, although arguably they do just that with SW relativistic shielding. Interesting fact about real physics: FTL travel = time travel. SW relativistic shielding somehow stops this. That implies a pretty good understanding of how time works.

in some cases it does like in the new star trek movie. In this case it doesn't. They change the current timeline that they're in, they make that quite clear. It's similiar to the models of time travel shown in the "yesterday's enterprise" TNG, TOS: "The City on the Edge of Forever", Star Trek First Contact, "Future's End" voyager, etc...

No, it's quite possible with most of the time travel situations seen in most of Star Trek if you stopped and thought about it for a moment. Not that that seems likely, but what the hey.

I think I read somewhere that humans were abducted and transported to the star wars galaxy where they colonized the planets. In my scenario, Q transports them there. Naturally star wars and star trek don't interact. In the verses debate we operate under the premise that the ship is in star wars space in order to make the confrontation possible. This objection is refuted by accepting the premise in the hypothetical situation.

Bwuh?
1. That's nice. There's still no definite homeworld for the humans in Star Wars.
2. I don't give two figs about your scenario. We are discussing a confrontation between Star Wars & Star Trek in which you are claiming the Krenim super-ship has super-duper-no-limits shielding, in spite of a lack of evidence beyond some dubious on-screen dialogue.
3. In Star Wars space to make a confrontation possible? What makes you think it won't be in the Krenim Imperium's backyard, given Star Wars' immense FTL advantage?

Doesn't matter. Star trek writers give the vessel the characteristic that it is impervious to weapons from being phased outside normal space-time. Any attempt to find inconsistency in these properties is just an attempt to use a proof of star trek being fictional to prove that the krenim ship is not phased outside normal-space which contradicts star trek canon. If the vessel wasn't outside normal-space then the crew would have shown signs of aging after 200 years, they wouldn't keep making references in the episode that it was outside space-time and the ship would have taken damage when it was attacked while the temporal core was online.

I don't give a toss what the writers' intent was, because that is not how these debates work. I also don't care for your silly argument about ST being fictional. In a debate like this you are supposed to suspend your disbelief and assume that what you are seeing is real. And what I see is - as opposed to nothing, or a 2D silhouette, or whatever - is a big ship that clearly interacts with the material universe, but has treknobabble shielding that makes it immune to conventional Trek weaponry.

What else... oh yeah, well done on totally ignoring my point about Star Wars invading the Krenim Imperium whilst Annorax is crawling at snail pace towards the enemy.

Rewatching YoH very quickly on YouTube, I was struck by a few things:
1. The shockwave from the weapon takes time to travel through space. Until it hits you, you're not affected. Star Wars ships, with their hyperdrives etc, could simply outrace it, assuming that in spite of the visuals it is a spherical effect and does not merely affect stuff in a plane (

). If it is a planar "shockwave", then I'll just remind everyone that space is 3D and that Star Wars has moved planets in the past...
2. The ship has to be practically in orbit of a planet to be in range of it. Range is consequently cr*p.
3. It clearly has an effect on Voyager when they first meet. Paris notes they're scanning them etc. Oh, and we SEE IT.
4. The "can't isolate their signals" is in relation to Tom Paris & Chakotay suddenly being beamed to Annorax's ship. Also, if you're making such a big deal about dialogue, it seems funny that Harry Kim said that rather than "we can't penetrate their shields with our teleporters", but whatever.
5. Annorax is clearly boasting when talking about the single molecule bit if you watch the scene. People have been known to exaggerate when boasting, and given what a failure this guy is when it comes to buggering around with time, I'd say he exaggerates more than most.
6. The man is clearly obsessed about his wife. Would he even get involved in a ST v SW conflict unless it directly impacted his little region of space and his work? Yes yes, act of Q or whatever gets him involved in this scenario, I'm just talking about Annorax in general.
7. The final attack is done by using coordinates sent by Tom Paris. Except the ship isn't a part of normal space-time. On screen > dialogue > writers' intent.
8. We see the ships attacking it have their weapons strike some sort of shield. Just like with regular shields in fact.
9. The ship looked like it held up surprisingly well to Voyager crashing into it. It looked more like Voyager crumpled on its hull than penetrated much. Just throwing this out there, because it seems Tom Paris has been talking out of his arse too with regards to "photon grenades" puncturing the hull.
10. At the end when the camera zooms in on the datapads Annorax was working on, it's not clear at all what they show (certainly not the ship though - and why should they, if the guy's wife is RIGHT THERE WITH HIM).

Edit: Almost forgot - Voyager's temporal shields stand up a long time in that thing's main weapon. Clearly the power required for the temporal shields wasn't enough on the two ships that were erased (or they messed up something else, whatever).

Darth Ruinus · Post by **Darth Ruinus** » 2010-02-16 02:07pm

marsh8472 wrote: when you erase all matter from the star destroyer, you erase every interaction with that matter that ever occured in history. It could very well prevent the primary source of the building material to make the ships. Kinda like erasing a gold watch ends up having a causual reaction that prevents gold from forming in the mine it was found in. Which would cause difficulty in finding more sources of building material which decreases the number of ships they could make. Or erasing a person can cause several of their ancestors to be erased for metaphysical reasons. That's just an example to show that the scope of time is well beyond your grasp seeing as you're so convinced of one specific outcome.

That can't possibly be true. The image you posted shows the Krenim Time ship shooting a city, and the city vanishing, and yet the ground underneath it (matter that the city interacted with) still exists. If your statement was true hitting the city would erase the ground undernenath it (and the planet) because the city interacted with the ground.

Hell, going by your analogy, hitting a gold watch with this Krenim time beam would erase the gold mine, and the rock around the gold mine, and the rock around that, and around that. It would also erase the nebula that formed that planet, and the start that created that nebula, and so on and so forth.

EnterpriseSovereign · Post by **EnterpriseSovereign** » 2010-02-16 02:20pm

Darth Ruinus wrote:
marsh8472 wrote: when you erase all matter from the star destroyer, you erase every interaction with that matter that ever occured in history. It could very well prevent the primary source of the building material to make the ships. Kinda like erasing a gold watch ends up having a causual reaction that prevents gold from forming in the mine it was found in. Which would cause difficulty in finding more sources of building material which decreases the number of ships they could make. Or erasing a person can cause several of their ancestors to be erased for metaphysical reasons. That's just an example to show that the scope of time is well beyond your grasp seeing as you're so convinced of one specific outcome.
That can't possibly be true. The image you posted shows the Krenim Time ship shooting a city, and the city vanishing, and yet the ground underneath it (matter that the city interacted with) still exists. If your statement was true hitting the city would erase the ground undernenath it (and the planet) because the city interacted with the ground.

Hell, going by your analogy, hitting a gold watch with this Krenim time beam would erase the gold mine, and the rock around the gold mine, and the rock around that, and around that. It would also erase the nebula that formed that planet, and the start that created that nebula, and so on and so forth.

It's this very fact of the weapon somehow erasing a colony, but not the planet it's on, that makes the premise so absurd.

This raises the following question: if a colony is erased in one timeline, what's to stop another civilisation (or even a different lot of colonists) of colonising that same planet in the alternate timeline? Just like with the Star Destroyer, and with Palpatine

As for the canon debate, just watch him try to deny the figures in the ICS as such

Teleros · Post by **Teleros** » 2010-02-16 05:00pm

EnterpriseSovereign wrote:As for the canon debate, just watch him try to deny the figures in the ICS as such

Well, I did warn him

.

Formless · Post by **Formless** » 2010-02-16 05:07pm

Its worth noting that the first time Voyager sees Annorax zap something with his magic time-gun, after the "temporal wave" or whatever hits Voyager, Voyager is still there, in the same physical location as before, and the ship which it was interacting with simply changed into a Krenim ship. Exactly like I predict would happen if you tried erasing Star Destroyers. OR, alternatively, perhaps the krenim ship behaves more like the Omega 13 device from Galaxy Quest, rearranging the states of matter within its radius such that it looks like it effects time, when in fact it doesn't. Of course, that's just speculation, and I freely admit that it would raise as many questions as it solves. But then, the official explanations leave much to be desired anyway, so...

DrStrangelove · Post by **DrStrangelove** » 2010-02-16 09:06pm

1. It is funny how his Uberweapon is so awesome, Annorax failed in his primary mission for 200 years
2. Chroniton weapons are so weak, a pathetic Intrepid class scout was able to survive 65 days of heavy fighting without temporal shields.
3. Warp is so slow, and the weapon so unpredictable in its effect, the timeship could easily spend eternity trying to erase the 1.75 million member worlds of the Empire
4. With its temporal core offline it was easily destroyed by a low speed impact

StarDestroyer.Net BBS

I need some debate help

Re: I need some debate help

Re: I need some debate help

Re: I need some debate help

Re: I need some debate help

Re: I need some debate help

Re: I need some debate help

Re: I need some debate help

Re: I need some debate help

Re: I need some debate help

Re: I need some debate help

Re: I need some debate help

Re: I need some debate help

Re: I need some debate help

Re: I need some debate help

Re: I need some debate help

Re: I need some debate help

Re: I need some debate help

Re: I need some debate help

Re: I need some debate help

Re: I need some debate help

Re: I need some debate help

Re: I need some debate help

Re: I need some debate help

Re: I need some debate help

Re: I need some debate help