Just got back from Nemisis

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Just got back from Nemisis

Post by matus1976 » 2002-12-14 02:49am

Quick Intro - I am been a frequent visitor to this site and a huge fan of the hosts Fan Fic. I havent posted yet on the forum but this has been the best time to start.

Not sure if any of this has been discussed yet, but I just got back from seeing 'Nemesis' Holy crap, did that suck! It was just filled with the typical technobabble crap in star trek, along with everything imaginable failing!

Ok, here are some specific comments (warning, spoilers)

Captain Picard is discussing Ethics with his clone, and says in a deriding tone 'How many Romulans did you kill for your freedom?' As if that mattered? I mean come on! As if we werent sure of the federations wacky ethics, this solidifies it. If you are unjustly improsined, does it matter how many you kill for your freedom? Picards clone was sentanced as a slave laborer for the romulan empire, more power to him if he killed his slave drivers for freedom!

The Enterprise is zooming around looking for a cloaked romulan ship (Er Remus ship I think was the name) and is shooting in random directions, one of their phasers hits, revealing the location. Immediately a volley of Photon torpedos is launched. They ALL MISS as he dodges them, the captain of the Romulan vessell says 'Too Slow Picard'. Whats this crap? I thought photon torpedos were superluminal weapons!!! Thats their whole point, a ship can enter warp and dodge a phaser, photon torpedos are supposed to leave at warp 9, at least if Star Trek made any sense. Not to mention, they werent even GUIDED!!! No tracking capabilities whatsoever. We have guided missiles NOW!!!

The enterprise gets hit by the blasted off wing of a regular Romulan warbird, its knocks the front shields down from 90% to 10% (!!!!) It was a hunk of metal moving at sublight velocities!!! A photon torpedo would put out orders of magnitude more energy than a freaking hunk o metal. Jeez. That should have brushed off them no problem.

Instead of photon torpedos, enemies should just lob hunks of lead at Federation ships to drain their sheilds.

Later, the Enterprise in a desperate attempt to destroy the enemy ship rams it head on! The vessels collide and the enterprise saucer section imbeds about a fifth to a quarter of it into the enemy vessel, damaging that vessels front as well.

Whats this crap!! Star trek ships have intertial dampeners and structural integrity fields. If two ships with both of these ram each other, they should just bounce off one another with the crew not feeling a thing since this paltry sub light accelerations are orders of magnitide smaller than what the Inertial dampeners should be able to handle, since there is no friction, the enterprise should have just pushed the other ship back. Instead the ships crumble!! This means that the structural integrity fields coupled with the mechanical strenght of the vessels isnt enough to overcome even the INERTIA of these vessels floating freely in space!!! What a load of crap! Stupid star trek writers

To top it off, crap kept failing left and right as usual. Picard beams over to the enemy ship on his own (over the objections of data, who wanted to go instead, and was clearly better fitted for the job) and the second he beams away the transporter console sparks and blows up in geordi's face, geordi turns and says 'well, thats it transporters out' !!!!! Before that scene, after ramming the other vessel, picard oders self destruct. Whats the computer respond? 'Autodestruct OFFLINE' !!!!!! Offline!!! jeez. Who makes these ships, microsoft?

This irritates me even more because small changes could be made that still told the same story but were much more technically sound, and much cooler. For example in the two second I have thought about it, I would have had picard order the saucer section evacuated, and turning off (or reducing) the structural integrity feidls in the front of the saucer, then ram the enemy ship, release the sacuer, run like hell, and auto destruct the saucer. With the SIF weakened, the saucer would crumble and latch onto the enemy ship, so when the enemy ship tried to back away the saucer would be stuck to it. This would get over the lame fact that these ships cant ram each other without crumpling like alumnimim foil, not have the autodestruct lamely fail, but still leave the enemy ship intact enough for the continuation of the plot.

these are only technical complaints, there was also loads of lame military strategy, pointless things, and an ending that was a blatent rip off of Star Trek II.

Grr...

Overall I disliked the film, I thought it was almost as good as the worse B5 episode I could think of ('Grail' maybe?) but my two friends who are as cynical and sarcastic as I, enjoyed it. Stating that it wasnt the worse Star trek film, but it wasnt good per se.

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Post by SWPIGWANG » 2002-12-14 03:00am

enjoy the movie, do not think about vs debates and remember suspension of disbelief.

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Post by Spanky The Dolphin » 2002-12-14 03:04am

And wrong forum, too.

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internally consistent

Post by matus1976 » 2002-12-14 03:09am

SWPIGWANG wrote:enjoy the movie, do not think about vs debates and remember suspension of disbelief.
My biggest pet peve with films is when they are not internally consistent. Star Trek gets worse and worse at this. If you saw a movie about football, wouldnt you be right in being annoyed that one team won by getting 8 points off a touchdown? Its not how the game is played. You wouldnt sit there and say 'suspension of disbelief'

Well, when it comes to technical things, the writers should spend at least half a second thinking this stuff through. When you violate something you have established already in the film, you violate my suspension of disbelief. You are no longer in a consistent universe with rules, you are in an arbitrary universe with no rules, this means the writers can make up any crap they want to finish the story. Its lazy, its a cop out to good story writing. If you are going to write a movie about football, get the rules of football right, if you are going to write one about space battles, use more than 10% of your brain and dont contradict yourself.

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Post by Robert Walper » 2002-12-14 03:09am

I strongly suspect that there is such a thing as analysing a movie too much. For instance, Spiderman scienitifically analysed is a joke, but as a movie, I thought it was great.

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Post by matus1976 » 2002-12-14 03:15am

Robert Walper wrote:I strongly suspect that there is such a thing as analysing a movie too much. For instance, Spiderman scienitifically analysed is a joke, but as a movie, I thought it was great.
I agree one can definately analyze a movie too much. But I do not agree that spiderman would be a joke, at least not by my criteria. And I think these are valid objections, as they are major plot points, but completely rediculous. Imagine if something similiar happened but with charachter personas instead of technical things. You want a charachter to remain similiar enough to be identifiable throughout a film, do you not? That is internal consistency. At least Spiderman was internally consistent. You didnt have spiderman holding up a cart full of kids in one hand in one scene, and then five minutes later see him unable to turn a rusty water valve. The things that they established in spiderman that he was able to do they did not violate later in the film. As long as a film is internally consistent, it can violate all the laws of physics as far as I care, as long as it doesnt violate the laws it establishes for itself.

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Post by Uraniun235 » 2002-12-14 03:15am

Captain Picard is discussing Ethics with his clone, and says in a deriding tone 'How many Romulans did you kill for your freedom?' As if that mattered? I mean come on! As if we werent sure of the federations wacky ethics, this solidifies it. If you are unjustly improsined, does it matter how many you kill for your freedom? Picards clone was sentanced as a slave laborer for the romulan empire, more power to him if he killed his slave drivers for freedom!
I think this is meant to show the contrast between Shinzon and Picard. We all know Picard, and Picard would probably have not killed his slave drivers to escape... at least not from his perspective as a Starfleet captain. Or at least found their deaths distasteful, whereas Shinzon took pride in it.
The Enterprise is zooming around looking for a cloaked romulan ship (Er Remus ship I think was the name) and is shooting in random directions, one of their phasers hits, revealing the location. Immediately a volley of Photon torpedos is launched. They ALL MISS as he dodges them, the captain of the Romulan vessell says 'Too Slow Picard'. Whats this crap? I thought photon torpedos were superluminal weapons!!! Thats their whole point, a ship can enter warp and dodge a phaser, photon torpedos are supposed to leave at warp 9, at least if Star Trek made any sense. Not to mention, they werent even GUIDED!!! No tracking capabilities whatsoever. We have guided missiles NOW!!!
So? Scimitar can go superluminal too. But, no, torpedos *don't* go warp 9; they seem to merely be able to sustain warp velocity for some time, not accelerate up to warp 9 from dead stop.
The enterprise gets hit by the blasted off wing of a regular Romulan warbird, its knocks the front shields down from 90% to 10% (!!!!) It was a hunk of metal moving at sublight velocities!!! A photon torpedo would put out orders of magnitude more energy than a freaking hunk o metal. Jeez. That should have brushed off them no problem.
The shields could very well be optimized to protect against energy attacks, not physical impacts. Or, the weapons just aren't that strong.
Instead of photon torpedos, enemies should just lob hunks of lead at Federation ships to drain their sheilds.
Yeah, that'd be practical to carry around.
Whats this crap!! Star trek ships have intertial dampeners and structural integrity fields. If two ships with both of these ram each other, they should just bounce off one another with the crew not feeling a thing since this paltry sub light accelerations are orders of magnitide smaller than what the Inertial dampeners should be able to handle, since there is no friction, the enterprise should have just pushed the other ship back. Instead the ships crumble!! This means that the structural integrity fields coupled with the mechanical strenght of the vessels isnt enough to overcome even the INERTIA of these vessels floating freely in space!!! What a load of crap! Stupid star trek writers
You're forgetting that at this point, the E-E has been heavily damaged. The SIFs have been repeatedly overwhelmed (as evidenced by the hull breaches) and probably don't even have full power by this point.
This irritates me even more because small changes could be made that still told the same story but were much more technically sound, and much cooler. For example in the two second I have thought about it, I would have had picard order the saucer section evacuated, and turning off (or reducing) the structural integrity feidls in the front of the saucer, then ram the enemy ship, release the sacuer, run like hell, and auto destruct the saucer. With the SIF weakened, the saucer would crumble and latch onto the enemy ship, so when the enemy ship tried to back away the saucer would be stuck to it. This would get over the lame fact that these ships cant ram each other without crumpling like alumnimim foil, not have the autodestruct lamely fail, but still leave the enemy ship intact enough for the continuation of the plot
There's no proof whatsoever that Soveriegn-class starships can saucer-sep.
and an ending that was a blatent rip off of Star Trek II.
Uh, no. Star Trek 2 did not end with a toast, nor with the Enterprise being repaired in drydock.

It's funny because it's the best of all the TNG movies.

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Post by matus1976 » 2002-12-14 03:29am

Uraniun235 wrote:
Captain Picard is discussing Ethics with his clone, and says in a deriding tone 'How many Romulans did you kill for your freedom?' As if that mattered? I mean come on! As if we werent sure of the federations wacky ethics, this solidifies it. If you are unjustly improsined, does it matter how many you kill for your freedom? Picards clone was sentanced as a slave laborer for the romulan empire, more power to him if he killed his slave drivers for freedom!
I think this is meant to show the contrast between Shinzon and Picard. We all know Picard, and Picard would probably have not killed his slave drivers to escape... at least not from his perspective as a Starfleet captain. Or at least found their deaths distasteful, whereas Shinzon took pride in it.
Shinzon said 'Too many' when asked how many he killed. I didnt interpret that as taking pride in his killing, only acknolwedging that he had to do it.
The Enterprise is zooming around looking for a cloaked romulan ship (Er Remus ship I think was the name) and is shooting in random directions, one of their phasers hits, revealing the location. Immediately a volley of Photon torpedos is launched. They ALL MISS as he dodges them, the captain of the Romulan vessell says 'Too Slow Picard'. Whats this crap? I thought photon torpedos were superluminal weapons!!! Thats their whole point, a ship can enter warp and dodge a phaser, photon torpedos are supposed to leave at warp 9, at least if Star Trek made any sense. Not to mention, they werent even GUIDED!!! No tracking capabilities whatsoever. We have guided missiles NOW!!!
So? Scimitar can go superluminal too. But, no, torpedos *don't* go warp 9; they seem to merely be able to sustain warp velocity for some time, not accelerate up to warp 9 from dead stop.
I didnt say that they had too. Our current surface to air missiles can easily outrun all but the fastest jets, its all power to weight ratios. Surely one would make a simple missile able to out accelarate of warbird size vessel with significant safety margin. And surely they would add simple guided capabilities to it. And those torpedos werent going warp anything, since we could clearly see them moving at sublight velocities. Imaging launching a torpedo at a boat when the torpedo wasnt any faster than the boat you were launching it at, pretty rediculous if you ask me.
The enterprise gets hit by the blasted off wing of a regular Romulan warbird, its knocks the front shields down from 90% to 10% (!!!!) It was a hunk of metal moving at sublight velocities!!! A photon torpedo would put out orders of magnitude more energy than a freaking hunk o metal. Jeez. That should have brushed off them no problem.
The shields could very well be optimized to protect against energy attacks, not physical impacts.
Could be, which is still dumb, that just means enemies should have projectile based weapons, rail guns and such. None of that appears to be around.
Or, the weapons just aren't that strong.
Exxxactly my point. 10 photon torpedos hits didnt even lower the shields as much as a drifting chunk of romulan warbird wing. Rediculous.
Instead of photon torpedos, enemies should just lob hunks of lead at Federation ships to drain their sheilds.
"Yeah, that'd be practical to carry around."

Of course it wouldnt, but a highly acclerated projectile would impart just as much energy, and obviously do a lot more damage than a photon torpedo.
You're forgetting that at this point, the E-E has been heavily damaged. The SIFs have been repeatedly overwhelmed (as evidenced by the hull breaches) and probably don't even have full power by this point.
Probably schmobolly, not more than a minute before geordi reported that all force fields were at full strength. Even so, the enemy ship was damaged in the collision as well, where its SIF fields off as well?
There's no proof whatsoever that Soveriegn-class starships can saucer-sep.
I didnt say there was, I was saying thats how I would have changed it to still make sense yet still follow the general plot direction they wanted to go.
and an ending that was a blatent rip off of Star Trek II.
Uh, no. Star Trek 2 did not end with a toast, nor with the Enterprise being repaired in drydock.
It's funny because it's the best of all the TNG movies.
I didnt think so

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Relatively absurd astropolitics

Post by Moff Jerjerrod » 2002-12-14 04:17am

One of my main problems with Nemesis was its utter lack of development vis-a-vis the Romulan political situation. It made little to no sense. Aside from the horrible acting on display in the Senate during the opening ("Does..anyone..wish..to..comment on trade..relations..blah blah"), no effort is made to explain the rationale behind the decisions of the major players.

From what I could ascertain, certain elements in the Romulan military hierarchy were dissatisfied with the lack of forceful action against/appeasement towards the Federation. I'm not exactly sure what changed 90 years or so worth of Romulan foreign policy orthodoxy, unless the ST writers invented some new villain that threatened them that I'm not aware of.

Additionally, the female Romulan captain (henceforth referred to as FRC) has apparently been a conspirator in the Reman plot for quite some time, given that she has the ear of Shinzon. So, assuming that, it is logical then to figure that she was privy to the plans of those in the coup regarding the destruction of the Federation. In fact, she must've longed for that goal, or why else would you be part of a plan that assasinates your sitting government?

Yet for some reason, after being sexually rebuffed by Shinzon, the FRC inexplicably has a change of heart and tells the other Romulan Captain something to the effect that "The blood of Earth will be on our heads for generations." What?! If your planned goal is to subjugate the Federation, what difference does it make whether or not the people of Earth are massacred or enslaved, given that your goal is met? And how about the blood of the Romulan Senate that you murdered to hatch this absurd plot in the first place?

Finally, when the FRC comes to the aid of Picard and the Enterprise during the climactic battle, she spouts some gibberish about it being considered a private manner by her government. Isn't the Praetor of the Empire the government, especially when one considers there's no more Senate? And once you destroy said Praetor, isn't the government back in the hands of those in the military who wanted quicker, more decisive action against the Federation, since apparently all the "doves" were slain by the radiation?

All in all, one would expect nothing but chaos to be happening in the Romulan Empire following this series of events, not some hastily written nonsense about peace envoys with the Federation, especially since there was no evidence of this prior to Shinzon's subterfuge.

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What's with a young bald Captain Picard & no mention of

Post by Nixon » 2002-12-14 04:52am

Matus1976 brings up a lot of good points. I distinctly remember photon torpedos having a bit more speed than that in the series. Not to mention, we do have guided weapons today, so it would behoove the writers to at least pay attention to what kind of technologies we at least currently have now. It is supposed to be set in the future, and presumably they have technologies better than what we have now, not worse.

And you're totally right about the ethics discussion. "Um, yeah I killed them, they kinda enslaved me you know. Sorry, don't feel that bad about it."

But Matus1976, how bout that stupid picture of Picard when he was young showing his bald head? Wasn't there an episode in TNG where he was a young Starfleet officer with a full head of hair? I mean come on, just because the dude is bald now doesn't mean even when he had a full head of hair he would shave it bald. That makes no sense.

But then you got this B4 character, and they all act like they've never confronted an android that looks exactly like Data before. Um, HELLO!!! Did we forget Lore? I would appreciate if the Star Trek writers would take past plots into consideration too. Continuity is definitely required for the suspension of disbelief. Otherwise it just seems ad hoc and lazy.

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Post by Vympel » 2002-12-14 05:58am

First post eh? Prepare to be poked :)

But not by me.

Patrick Stewart actually started going bald at the age of NINETEEN!

Sucks to be him.

He looked kinda like Richard Gere in "I, Claudius", the BBC mini-series adaptation of the novel (he plays Sejanus).

PS- Your nick grates on my nerves :)
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Re: What's with a young bald Captain Picard & no mention

Post by paladin » 2002-12-14 09:28am

Lucas-sucks wrote:
But Matus1976, how bout that stupid picture of Picard when he was young showing his bald head? Wasn't there an episode in TNG where he was a young Starfleet officer with a full head of hair? I mean come on, just because the dude is bald now doesn't mean even when he had a full head of hair he would shave it bald. That makes no sense.

But then you got this B4 character, and they all act like they've never confronted an android that looks exactly like Data before. Um, HELLO!!! Did we forget Lore? I would appreciate if the Star Trek writers would take past plots into consideration too. Continuity is definitely required for the suspension of disbelief. Otherwise it just seems ad hoc and lazy.
The episode you're referring to was "Tapestry." In the episode, there was a scene where Q showed Picard the fight that resulted in his near fatal stabbing. The younger verison Picard does have a FULL head of hair. Maybe Picard while he was at SF Academy shaved his hair for some reason. The picture in Nemesis was in a cadet uniform so it could have been taken a long time before he graduated.

B4 was a prototype. It would make sense to have a more "primitive" verison of Data and Lore existing before they did. I would agree that a mention of Lore would have been nice.

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Re: What's with a young bald Captain Picard & no mention

Post by Mad » 2002-12-14 11:19am

paladin wrote:B4 was a prototype. It would make sense to have a more "primitive" verison of Data and Lore existing before they did. I would agree that a mention of Lore would have been nice.
I was hoping the 'bot would be Lore, but it wasn't. It was odd that they didn't even have a reference to him.

I guess they didn't consider that it'd be Lore since Lore had been dismanteled, never to be rebuilt again. Perhaps his parts were disposed of in a rather permanent way.

And I believe it was mentioned in TNG that Soong had built a number of prototypes.

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Post by Darth Wong » 2002-12-14 12:18pm

Hey "lucas-sucks", people who sign up with trollish nicknames get an automatic village idiot rank. Seeya.
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Re: internally consistent

Post by Master of Ossus » 2002-12-14 01:06pm

matus1976 wrote:
SWPIGWANG wrote:enjoy the movie, do not think about vs debates and remember suspension of disbelief.
Well, when it comes to technical things, the writers should spend at least half a second thinking this stuff through. When you violate something you have established already in the film, you violate my suspension of disbelief. You are no longer in a consistent universe with rules, you are in an arbitrary universe with no rules, this means the writers can make up any crap they want to finish the story. Its lazy, its a cop out to good story writing. If you are going to write a movie about football, get the rules of football right, if you are going to write one about space battles, use more than 10% of your brain and dont contradict yourself.

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I agree completely. I also think it's funny how we are willing to accept things like warp engines, torpedoes, and shields, but as soon as a character acts in a manner that we don't think is reasonable we are programmed to jump all over it. In this case, they clearly did violate many things in ST. The firepower of the ships was inconsistent, and their technology was inconsistent.
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Re: What's with a young bald Captain Picard & no mention

Post by matus1976 » 2002-12-14 01:26pm

Lucas-sucks wrote: But then you got this B4 character, and they all act like they've never confronted an android that looks exactly like Data before. Um, HELLO!!! Did we forget Lore? I would appreciate if the Star Trek writers would take past plots into consideration too. Continuity is definitely required for the suspension of disbelief. Otherwise it just seems ad hoc and lazy.
Right, not only did they act like the never met a data clone, they put him back together AND downloaded all of Data's memories to him!!! Talk about a security breech! At least they could have said 'Date, download only non-confidential memories' or something. Jeez.

And the fleet position isnt classified information in the Federation?

And going through that space cloud that blocked transmissions was even more moronic. Lets go through the only part of space which provides a perfect oppertunity for them to attack us. Smart plan, whos the navigation officer? Fire him.. hopefully he was the guy who got sucked out of the window.

Which brings me to another point, I am sure the ST writers were just dumb, but people can live in space unprotected for a good 30 seconds or so (this will start a debate of its own Im sure) but in whatever case, they would live long enough to be beamed back onto the ship. Picard should have said 'Beam him back immediately' It would have been much cooler, especially if he rejoined them on the bridge a few moments later with renewed determination!

Which brings me to another point, that whole getting sucked out into space thing is a load of crap as well. Given the size of the bridge, and the size of the hole, the pressure difference would have equalized in an incredibly short period of time, UNLESS, the bridge was connected by open corriders to the rest of the ship, with no bulkheads and no airlocks or safety mechanisms. A very poor design for even a submarine, let alone a spaceship. Surely there is a door you have to go through to get on the bridge!

And when Picard blasts into the bridge of the scimeron, he should have started blasting away, everything in site. Instead he stands there and waits for the guards to shoot at him, then gets into a lame Im standing here and you cant hit me battle. These Ramuns were highly trained warriors???

Picard should have been pissed and motivated, they were going to kill everyone on his ship, and kill everyone on earth. He should have bursted into that bridge and killed every guard before they even knew what hit them, leaving only Shinzon standing, unarmed. Why turn picard into a flaky wuss?

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Reply to Matus

Post by Nixon » 2002-12-14 04:27pm

And another thing Matus. What was with Picard's clone there, Shazam, Shit-sock, er I mean Shook Knight, Shinzon.....whatever, how exactly did that character contribute to the plot? Picard's clone? I challenge anyone to think back through the entire movie and picture any other villian besides one that was a clone of Picard, and tell me it would be a different movie. If it was a Reman trying to destroy the Federation, would the film be any different? Him being Picard's clone just seemed pointless and cartoonish. Half way through the film I thought I was watching Dr. Evil.

And let's talk about the whole diplomatic mission to Romulus. Um, we're talking about the cold war enemy to the Federation for centuries, you'd think they would make this a bigger deal than they did in the movie. Admiral Janeway gives Picard a call and tells him to go be a diplomat in probably one of the most important events to transpire in Federation history. I mean at least in Star Trek 6, they spent a whole half-hour discussing what course of action the Federation should take to the Klingon's offer of peace. In that film, you saw a political quagmire unfolding as Captain Kirk and Dr. McCoy are falsely accused of assasinating Chancellor Gorkon, and subsequently the Federation considers a rescue mission, and a show-trial is put on. I mean that was good stuff, you felt like something like that could transpire in present day politics. They don't make Trek films like that anymore. Oh well. It seems like to me the franchise is pretty much dead.

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Re: Reply to Matus

Post by paladin » 2002-12-14 04:35pm

Lucas-sucks wrote:And another thing Matus. What was with Picard's clone there, Shazam, Shit-sock, er I mean Shook Knight, Shinzon.....whatever, how exactly did that character contribute to the plot? Picard's clone? I challenge anyone to think back through the entire movie and picture any other villian besides one that was a clone of Picard, and tell me it would be a different movie. If it was a Reman trying to destroy the Federation, would the film be any different? Him being Picard's clone just seemed pointless and cartoonish. Half way through the film I thought I was watching Dr. Evil.
Dr. Evil is a much better villian then Shinzon even without sharks with lasers straped to their heads.

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Re: Reply to Matus

Post by Uraniun235 » 2002-12-14 07:28pm

Lucas-sucks wrote:And another thing Matus. What was with Picard's clone there, Shazam, Shit-sock, er I mean Shook Knight, Shinzon.....whatever, how exactly did that character contribute to the plot? Picard's clone? I challenge anyone to think back through the entire movie and picture any other villian besides one that was a clone of Picard, and tell me it would be a different movie. If it was a Reman trying to destroy the Federation, would the film be any different? Him being Picard's clone just seemed pointless and cartoonish. Half way through the film I thought I was watching Dr. Evil.

And let's talk about the whole diplomatic mission to Romulus. Um, we're talking about the cold war enemy to the Federation for centuries, you'd think they would make this a bigger deal than they did in the movie. Admiral Janeway gives Picard a call and tells him to go be a diplomat in probably one of the most important events to transpire in Federation history. I mean at least in Star Trek 6, they spent a whole half-hour discussing what course of action the Federation should take to the Klingon's offer of peace. In that film, you saw a political quagmire unfolding as Captain Kirk and Dr. McCoy are falsely accused of assasinating Chancellor Gorkon, and subsequently the Federation considers a rescue mission, and a show-trial is put on. I mean that was good stuff, you felt like something like that could transpire in present day politics. They don't make Trek films like that anymore. Oh well. It seems like to me the franchise is pretty much dead.
Um, yeah, sure, because if Shinzon hadn't been Picard's clone, then he wouldn't have needed the transfusion, wouldn't have needed to go after the Enterprise, and could have just gone on to Earth, which would have made his little "let's bring the Enterprise down instead of going straight to Earth" action have NO reason and been denounced as a STUPID PLOT DEVICE akin to the Bond-esque villains. Jesus, it's good YOU don't write for Star Trek either.

A whole half-hour? Bullshit. Try five or six minutes. Oh, and congratulations, the movie just got knocked by critics for being a "plodding talkfest much like the TV series that spawned it".

Also, the only movie like Star Trek VI was *surprise* Star Trek VI! Most of the others mentioned intergalactic politics in passing. The great TWOK movie never dwelled on the political implications of Genesis with the Federation... that was a moral discussion of the Genesis Project's potential power.

How can you compare Nemesis to the rest of the movie franchise when you don't even seem to have a grasp on the rest of the franchise to begin with?!?

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Re: Reply to Matus

Post by matus1976 » 2002-12-14 09:23pm

Lucas-sucks wrote:And another thing Matus. What was with Picard's clone there, Shazam, Shit-sock, er I mean Shook Knight, Shinzon.....whatever, how exactly did that character contribute to the plot? Picard's clone?
I completely agree, it was like a contrived attempt to make a villian to rival TNG crew that was like Kahn to the TOS crew. You couldnt just make him some mean guy, cause why would he have a grudge against Picard in particular. So no, lets make him a clone of picard, not only that, but a clone that is dying that needs picards to survive, how lame.

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Re: Reply to Matus

Post by matus1976 » 2002-12-14 09:32pm

Uraniun235 wrote: Um, yeah, sure, because if Shinzon hadn't been Picard's clone, then he wouldn't have needed the transfusion, wouldn't have needed to go after the Enterprise, and could have just gone on to Earth, which would have made his little "let's bring the Enterprise down instead of going straight to Earth" action have NO reason and been denounced as a STUPID PLOT DEVICE akin to the Bond-esque villains. Jesus, it's good YOU don't write for Star Trek either.
Exactly, which is why it was stupid, it was so contrived. Read what your wrote again and ask yourself if it wasnt lame, and if something a little more plausible could have been used. If you didnt think that was contrived and lame, Its a good thing you dont write for star trek, theyd be even worse, if thats possible.
Also, the only movie like Star Trek VI was *surprise* Star Trek VI!
Thank you captian gift for the obvious. Thats just about the dumbest statement I have seen. Would you contend that NO movies are 'like' star trek VI except star trek VI? Perhaps the political theme of Nemisis was 'like' VI, while the nemesis aspect of it was 'like' star trek II. What do you define 'like' as? Exactly identical, or similiar in some aspects?

Matus

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Continuing the absurd astropolitics theme

Post by Moff Jerjerrod » 2002-12-14 10:02pm

I have to second Lucas-Sucks point about the haphazard way the Enterprise was drafted into heading for Romulus to undertake arguably the single most important diplomatic mission in Federation history.

I understand that Sarek is dead, but surely there must be another Ambassador in the Federation with similar standing that would have been chosen instead of the Enterprise. And Janeway's rationale "You are the closest ship, Jean-Luc." is pure insanity! When the opportunity arose for President Nixon to forge stronger ties with the Chinese in 1971, did he say, "Well, General Abrams (head of US forces in Vietnam), I know you're busy leading our armed forces and all, but you are the closest one to China, can you handle it?" Hell no! He sent his National Security Advisor over there, which is what one would logically expect the Federation to do, if they weren't busy being imbecilic whiney would-be communists.

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Post by Uraniun235 » 2002-12-14 11:20pm

Captain Picard has extensive diplomatic experience, as well as extensive experience with the Romulans. He is an excellent choice for the job.
Exactly, which is why it was stupid, it was so contrived. Read what your wrote again and ask yourself if it wasnt lame, and if something a little more plausible could have been used. If you didnt think that was contrived and lame, Its a good thing you dont write for star trek, theyd be even worse, if thats possible.
Except that without Picard having an enemy that despises him so bitterly, the ENTIRE plot falls apart. THAT'S how Shinzon being his clone contributes to THE plot, which is your point that I was referring to.

Why don't you just drop the bullshit and right out say the entire premise of the movie was FUBAR? We all know that's what you're trying to say, so why mince words?
Would you contend that NO movies are 'like' star trek VI except star trek VI?
YES, I would, because the political aspect of VI is unique among the ST movies. You said:
I mean that was good stuff, you felt like something like that could transpire in present day politics. They don't make Trek films like that anymore.
The ONLY Trek film like that was VI, you dumbass.
Um, we're talking about the cold war enemy to the Federation for centuries, you'd think they would make this a bigger deal than they did in the movie.
Never mind that they were allied during the Dominion War. :roll:
Oh well. It seems like to me the franchise is pretty much dead.
Hey, cool, that means we won't hear your whining about how you wasted your precious time and money to see another ST movie that you thought sucked.

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Ever present astropolitics

Post by Moff Jerjerrod » 2002-12-15 01:02am

Point taken, Uranium 235, that Picard does indeed have a strong diplomatic record. However, Janeway suggests that it is the Enterprise's proximity to Romulus that was the deciding factor, not his role as a stand-in for Sarek in previous disputes.

And while the Federation and Romulans may have been in tacit alliance against the Dominion, it is made apparent in Nemesis that the state of communication between the two sides is presently strained. See Picard's "Romulus?!" (gasp). So, this scenario either chooses to ignore the Dominion period completely, or suggests that the relationship has once again cooled. (This would be comparable to US support of China against the Japanese in WWII, followed by the prolonged state of non-recogition and non-communication.) Therefore, it only seems logical that you would give your chosen representative more prep time for this perilous journey. Additionally, one would expect the transfer of whatever Romulan specialists the Federation has to the Enterprise before they would even consider heading to Romulus.

I would also disagree with your contention that the political angle only existed in Star Trek VI. It was certainly presented with the most clarity and best writing in that film, but given the very nature of Star Trek, one alliance system in contact/competition with a host of others, the political situation is always present. Therefore, it can only benefit the storytelling when it is explained well (as in VI), or add nothing when it is just thrown in there. (The Klingon Empire won't stand for allowing Kirk to go free! We'll yell a lot!-as in IV.)

I agree totally with Matus and Lucas-sucks in their desire to see better writing and stronger storytelling from the Star Trek braintrust. That's what makes Trek at it's best so great, and not just the mindless drivel that is the likes of Starship Troopers or The Phantom Menace.

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What's with the name-calling?

Post by Nixon » 2002-12-15 01:29am

Lucas-sucks wrote:And another thing Matus. What was with Picard's clone there, Shazam, Shit-sock, er I
mean Shook Knight, Shinzon.....whatever, how exactly did that character contribute to
the plot? Picard's clone? I challenge anyone to think back through the entire movie and
picture any other villian besides one that was a clone of Picard, and tell me it would be
a different movie. If it was a Reman trying to destroy the Federation, would the film be
any different? Him being Picard's clone just seemed pointless and cartoonish. Half
way through the film I thought I was watching Dr. Evil.

And let's talk about the whole diplomatic mission to Romulus. Um, we're talking
about the cold war enemy to the Federation for centuries, you'd think they would make
this a bigger deal than they did in the movie. Admiral Janeway gives Picard a call and
tells him to go be a diplomat in probably one of the most important events to transpire
in Federation history. I mean at least in Star Trek 6, they spent a whole half-hour
discussing what course of action the Federation should take to the Klingon's offer of
peace. In that film, you saw a political quagmire unfolding as Captain Kirk and Dr.
McCoy are falsely accused of assasinating Chancellor Gorkon, and subsequently the
Federation considers a rescue mission, and a show-trial is put on. I mean that was
good stuff, you felt like something like that could transpire in present day politics.
They don't make Trek films like that anymore. Oh well. It seems like to me the
franchise is pretty much dead.
Um, yeah, sure, because if Shinzon hadn't been Picard's clone, then he wouldn't have needed the
transfusion, wouldn't have needed to go after the Enterprise, and could have just gone on to
Earth, which would have made his little "let's bring the Enterprise down instead of going straight
to Earth" action have NO reason and been denounced as a STUPID PLOT DEVICE akin to the
Bond-esque villains. Jesus, it's good YOU don't write for Star Trek either.
You just made my point. As my good friend from CT Matus said, look at what you just wrote. Does the plot not sound contrived and stupid? Why not just have him be a Reman and give us a more realistic plot line?
A whole half-hour? Bullshit. Try five or six minutes. Oh, and congratulations, the movie just got
knocked by critics for being a "plodding talkfest much like the TV series that spawned it".
5 or 6 minutes? Are you including the opening sequence of the Klingon Moon exploding, the subsequent debate in the Federation, and all the conversations between Spock, Kirk, and Valeris? I was exaggerating when I said the debate scene "itself" at Starfleet headquarters was a half hour, I meant to include the whole build-up. Kirk talking with Valeris and discussing her and his doubts to the Klingon's peace offering, Kirk upset with Spock that he volunteered him to be the escort for Chancellor Gorkon, and Spock's great line "Only Nixon could go to China". The point being, they made it out like it was the biggest thing to ever hit the Federation's political dealings. And it was, the Klingons were the Cold War enemies of the Federation for years, and now there was a chance for peace or for military defeat over the Klingons. Now in Nemesis, they never gave the same kind of seriousness or debate or discussion as they did in 6, despite the fact the Romulans had been the Federation's Cold War enemies for more than a century.

And I don't care what "critics" say about the new film. Critics also say "Analyze That" is "...one of the funniest movies of the year" "Absolute Perfection. Here surely is the perfect holiday season movie". Who cares? You can get any critic to say anything good about any movie. What's your point?
Also, the only movie like Star Trek VI was *surprise* Star Trek VI!
What does that mean? No movies can be like other movies? Or that no Star Trek movie can share qualities from other Star Trek movies? To me, the writers so desperately wanted to capture the greatness of the protaganist/antagonist reliationship in TWOK, and the political chance at a lasting peace between two Cold War enemies in VI. So no, it's not the same exact movie, but are you going to try and tell me movies can't share similar themes? Or do you not know what a theme in literary terms mean?
The great TWOK movie never dwelled on the
political implications of Genesis with the Federation... that was a moral discussion of the Genesis
Project's potential power.
What's your point? I didn't ask Nemesis to be like any other Star Trek film, only that I ask it to not be a pile of shit. I'm only pointing out similiar themes between movies. I didn't say I wrote those themes, just pointing out, ok?
How can you compare Nemesis to the rest of the movie franchise when you don't even seem to
have a grasp on the rest of the franchise to begin with?!?
What makes you think I don't have a grasp on the rest of the franchise? I've watched every TNG episode movie, and the same goes with the classic series and movies. Sorry if you liked the film and you're upset I didn't. No need to get so upset with me. If you liked it then so be it. Good for you.

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