Reaction to phaser hits

[Questor]

Recently we got into a discussion on ASVS about Phasers and kinetic energy, during the discussion Strowbridge suggested that it would be nice to have statistics on how humanoids react to phaser hits. Since I have a lot of free time right now, I decided to compile the stats. So far I have finished TNG and the TNG movies. Here are the statistics, my conclusions are at the end.

Superaliens are the borg, the parasites, and the thing that possesed Dr. Crusher's candle.

Here is the thread on google.

My general conclusions were:

The only phaser that demonstrates reliable KE transfer to its target
is the Pulse phaser rifle, the pulse phaser rifle transfers enough KE
to stagger a borg drone, and at the same time, enough to knock a Reman
several feet back. It might be possible to calculate this KE from the
FC deflector dish scenes.

Regarding other types of phasers, pushing people back is the most
common occurance, but it by far not the only reaction.

Also, vaping of a humanoid target is very uncommon using Starfleet
equipment. This might indicate that there is a very high energy
requirement, compared to the other modes of operation.

Thanks to Lord Edam de Fromage for the copies of the scripts, and to
Strowbridge for the idea.

Please feel free to destroy.

P.S. If this should be in the vs. forum, I apologize, I wasn't really sure where to put it.

[brianeyci]

The only phaser that demonstrates reliable KE transfer to its target is the Pulse phaser rifle, the pulse phaser rifle transfers enough KE to stagger a borg drone, and at the same time, enough to knock a Reman several feet back. It might be possible to calculate this KE from the FC deflector dish scenes.

I will try to find screenshots of a Type-II transferring KE to its target. For now you can satisfy yourself with this,


(Section31.com, hosted on my own webspace)

You could argue that the laws of physics were being violated in that instance since the effect was taking place on the Genesis planet, but that is silly. More likely something technobabble was going on, such as the kinetic energy from the phaser beam being increased somehow after leaving the phaser. Kirk didn't dislocate his shoulder, so when the beam went out, it had very little kinetic energy. Have you found any non-Genesis instances of a Type-II being held with one hand and throwing somebody significantly back?

"Unreliable" need not be explained by saying that hand phasers have poor KE transfer, but rather by the Fed's insistence on using non-lethal settings on their weapons in most circumstances.

As well have you considered that it would be incredibly undesirable for a hand phaser to transfer enough kinetic energy to throw someone back? Holding a phaser one-handed and firing a shot that could dislocate your shoulder would not be fun. That's probably why higher kinetic energy transfer levels are restricted to phaser rifles, which a person holds with two hands.

Also, vaping of a humanoid target is very uncommon using Starfleet equipment. This might indicate that there is a very high energy
requirement, compared to the other modes of operation.

Or it could be indicative that Starfleet prefers stun and incapicating settings rather than vaporization. I don't understand this "high energy requirement to vaporize someone hypothesis". If phasers work through the NDF theory, and if my understanding is correct, energy has very little to do with vaporization and the material that the phaser is pointed at has everything to do with vaporization. We know that phasers don't work through direct energy transfer.

As well, vaporization need not use insane amounts of energy for vaporization to become inefficient. Vaporizing someone is the same as punching a lethal hole through someone. So even if vaporization used a few joules more energy, it would become undesirable because a lethal wound would accomplish the same thing. And I remember correctly, vaporizing blasts were targeted against the middle torso rather than the extremeties. So one could argue that rather than firing at the torso and vaporizing someone, it would be the same as firing at the torso and punching a hole through their chest, even if the vaporization used one joule more energy.

Brian

[Batman]

I will try to find screenshots of a Type-II transferring KE to its target. For now you can satisfy yourself with this,
http://individual.utoronto.ca/brianlim/74.jpg
(Section31.com, hosted on my own webspace)

Badly chosen screenshot, Brian. I'm not certain I can place it. That's the one where Kirk phaserizes a Klingon and the guy goes flying as if hit by a 30mm cannon, right?

"Unreliable" need not be explained by saying that hand phasers have poor KE transfer, but rather by the Fed's insistence on using non-lethal settings on their weapons in most circumstances.

Phasers have little or no KE period because they have little to no recoil.

That's probably why higher kinetic energy transfer levels are restricted to phaser rifles, which a person holds with two hands.

And which too show little to no recoil. Phaser can't tranfer KE they don't HAVE.
IF phaser rifles impart significant KE/momentum to their targets it's something technobabbly, not KE/momentum transfer.

Also, vaping of a humanoid target is very uncommon using Starfleet equipment. This might indicate that there is a very high energy
requirement, compared to the other modes of operation.

Or it could be indicative that Starfleet prefers stun and incapicating settings rather than vaporization. I don't understand this "high energy requirement to vaporize someone hypothesis". If phasers work through the NDF theory, and if my understanding is correct, energy has very little to do with vaporization and the material that the phaser is pointed at has everything to do with vaporization. We know that phasers don't work through direct energy transfer.

We ALSO know that phasers occasionally vaporize the VERY SAME material they usually don't-i.e. humans. The effect is clearly not material dependent.
Given that the vaporize option is regularly associated with high/maximum "power/power settings", the connection is rather obvious.

[brianeyci]

Badly chosen screenshot, Brian. I'm not certain I can place it. That's the one where Kirk phaserizes a Klingon and the guy goes flying as if hit by a 30mm cannon, right?

Yes, that is the one. That is the only instance of KE transfer with a hand phaser that I can think of. I am hoping Jason found more, given that he has done research on this.

Phasers have little or no KE period because they have little to no recoil.

Hand phasers have little or no recoil. But it does not mean that phasers are unable of KE transfer. Think of the Reman example... I actually didn't watch Nemesis, did Picard throw the Reman back with a hand phaser or a phaser rifle? As well Jason mentioned Borg hit by phaser rifles get pushed back a little.

And which too show little to no recoil. Phaser can't tranfer KE they don't HAVE. IF phaser rifles impart significant KE/momentum to their targets it's something technobabbly, not KE/momentum transfer.

Borg and Remans have been pushed/thrown back. Why must there be something technobabbly to explain this? I don't know if the Remans were thrown back by a phaser rifle, but a Borg was pushed back. Recoil can be explained by someone holding the rifle with two hands.

We ALSO know that phasers occasionally vaporize the VERY SAME material they usually don't-i.e. humans. The effect is clearly not material dependent. Given that the vaporize option is regularly associated with high/maximum "power/power settings", the connection is rather obvious.

Agreed. Vaporization is not material dependent.

I am not disputing that the highest phaser setting is vaporize. I just proposed why phasers would not be set to "vaporize". Later Star Trek probably realized that punching a hole through someone would be the same thing as vaporizing someone, so the highest setting could be personalized to be punching a hole through someone.

"Occasional vaporization" could be explained by who used the phaser. Someone with any combat experience at all would realize that a phaser hit to the torso would be lethal whether or not it vaporized, so he would tune down the setting. Someone who was green would set the phaser to highest setting.

Vaporizing could take more energy. What we don't know is how much more energy, and to speculate that it would take insane amounts of energy is premature. There are more rational ways to explain why vaporization isn't used often.

Brian

[Batman]

Phasers have little or no KE period because they have little to no recoil.

Hand phasers have little or no recoil. But it does not mean that phasers are unable of KE transfer.

Um-Brian-phasers can't transfer what they don't HAVE.

Think of the Reman example... I actually didn't watch Nemesis, did Picard throw the Reman back with a hand phaser or a phaser rifle? As well Jason mentioned Borg hit by phaser rifles get pushed back a little.

I'm not saying that phasers don't SOMEHOW impart KE/momentum effects on their targets. It cannot however be KE transfer.

And which too show little to no recoil. Phaser can't tranfer KE they don't HAVE. IF phaser rifles impart significant KE/momentum to their targets it's something technobabbly, not KE/momentum transfer.

Borg and Remans have been pushed/thrown back. Why must there be something technobabbly to explain this?

Because the weapons that do so have no noticeable recoil.

I don't know if the Remans were thrown back by a phaser rifle, but a Borg was pushed back. Recoil can be explained by someone holding the rifle with two hands.

Have you ever fired a rifle, Brian? A modern assault rifle, which has NOWHERE near enough KE to move a human-mass target any noticeable distance (topple over, yes-push back, no) has obviously noticeable recoil when fired with both hands from the shoulder. Phaser rifles are as often as not fired from the hip and show no recoil whatsoever.

[brianeyci]

Have you ever fired a rifle, Brian? A modern assault rifle, which has NOWHERE near enough KE to move a human-mass target any noticeable distance (topple over, yes-push back, no) has obviously noticeable recoil when fired with both hands from the shoulder. Phaser rifles are as often as not fired from the hip and show no recoil whatsoever.

Generally agreed that hand phasers can't transfer KE, and that phasers before the pulse phaser can't transfer KE.

So your objection to pulse phasers having no KE transfer is because we see no visible effects of recoil?

We would have to treat this on a case-by-case basis. People do shoot pulse phaser rifles from their shoulders,


(From DW's site, hosted on my own webspace)

If I am not incorrect, this is from ST:FC.

Also, phaser rifles fired from the hip and having no recoil could be explained by the settings sufficiently powered down not to impart KE, if we don't see any momentum in that specific shot. We also have to examine who was firing the phaser rifle -- for example, Data could handle firing a rifle transferring KE and having no noticable recoil, or maybe Worf.

What I am saying is that we have to treat this on a case-by-case basis. We need to find examples of a Borg drone being pushed back, or the Reman example, and see how the person was holding the rifle.

We shouldn't go for the technobabble solution -- we're more reasonable than Trek engineers after all.

Brian

[Questor]

Badly chosen screenshot, Brian. I'm not certain I can place it. That's the one where Kirk phaserizes a Klingon and the guy goes flying as if hit by a 30mm cannon, right?

Yes, that is the one. That is the only instance of KE transfer with a hand phaser that I can think of. I am hoping Jason found more, given that he has done research on this.

In TNG, using a type II phaser (the dustbuster), I found 42 incidents were the target's motion was changed simultanious with being hit by a phaser. Of those 42, 29 of them had the target knocked backwards with enough force to unbalance them. I also looked for any evidence of recoil, and I could not find a single event where phasers caused a recoil.

Phasers have little or no KE period because they have little to no recoil.

Hand phasers have little or no recoil. But it does not mean that phasers are unable of KE transfer. Think of the Reman example... I actually didn't watch Nemesis, did Picard throw the Reman back with a hand phaser or a phaser rifle? As well Jason mentioned Borg hit by phaser rifles get pushed back a little.

In Nemesis, all of the Remans were hit by Pulse Phaser Rifles, and all of them were thrown. The borg staggered a little bit, but then fell. (I really can't think of another word to describe the effect.) The only exceptions were the borg who where shot while they were out on the deflector dish. They went flying. Perhaps someone smarter than I can calculate the whack it took to make them go flying at the observed velocities and overcome whatever they were using to allow themselves to walk around.

The lack of recoil, even in Pulse Phaser Rifles, implies that there is something else going on, but it is not KE transfer in the same way that a modern firearm works.

And which too show little to no recoil. Phaser can't tranfer KE they don't HAVE. IF phaser rifles impart significant KE/momentum to their targets it's something technobabbly, not KE/momentum transfer.

Borg and Remans have been pushed/thrown back. Why must there be something technobabbly to explain this? I don't know if the Remans were thrown back by a phaser rifle, but a Borg was pushed back. Recoil can be explained by someone holding the rifle with two hands.

You need the technobabble to explain it because the observed events violate Newton's third law.

We ALSO know that phasers occasionally vaporize the VERY SAME material they usually don't-i.e. humans. The effect is clearly not material dependent. Given that the vaporize option is regularly associated with high/maximum "power/power settings", the connection is rather obvious.

Agreed. Vaporization is not material dependent.

I am not disputing that the highest phaser setting is vaporize. I just proposed why phasers would not be set to "vaporize". Later Star Trek probably realized that punching a hole through someone would be the same thing as vaporizing someone, so the highest setting could be personalized to be punching a hole through someone.

"Occasional vaporization" could be explained by who used the phaser. Someone with any combat experience at all would realize that a phaser hit to the torso would be lethal whether or not it vaporized, so he would tune down the setting. Someone who was green would set the phaser to highest setting.

Vaporizing could take more energy. What we don't know is how much more energy, and to speculate that it would take insane amounts of energy is premature. There are more rational ways to explain why vaporization isn't used often.

Brian

I never speculated it took insane amounts of energy, simply that it took more than just killing a person.

From my, admitedly limited, point of view, vaporization is only needed in two situations:

1. Times when it would be really inconvenient to have a body turn up. E.g. anytime stealth is needed.

2. Any time where you really don't want your target to get back up. No matter how good the doctors are, they can't save a person whose been vaporized. Plus, its probably got a pretty profound psychological effect on the bystanders.

[Batman]

Generally agreed that hand phasers can't transfer KE, and that phasers before the pulse phaser can't transfer KE.

Good. Now why do we assume that pulse phasers do, given there's no reason to assume they work on a different principle?

So your objection to pulse phasers having no KE transfer is because we see no visible effects of recoil?

Semantics nitpick: My objection is to pulse phasers HAVING KE transfer.
And yes.

We would have to treat this on a case-by-case basis.

Why? We already have lots of examples of phasers imparting significant KE to their targets without any noticeable recoil. We ALSO have no reason to assume pulse phasers work on a different mechanism than beam ones do.

People do shoot pulse phaser rifles from their shoulders,

Never contested.

(From DW's site, hosted on my own webspace)

Um-you could have simply linked to the main page, you know

Also, phaser rifles fired from the hip and having no recoil could be explained by the settings sufficiently powered down not to impart KE, if we don't see any momentum in that specific shot.

It's much easier explained by phasers not using KE transfer to impart KE to their targets, which happens to fit ALL examples of phasers doing so.

[Darth Wong]

The Klingon in ST3 was not thrown back by a simply KE transfer. Watch the clip; his movement is extremely unnatural and bears no resemblance to a proper ballistic path. It is physically impossible for a single shove to produce that movement.

[Questor]

Have you ever fired a rifle, Brian? A modern assault rifle, which has NOWHERE near enough KE to move a human-mass target any noticeable distance (topple over, yes-push back, no) has obviously noticeable recoil when fired with both hands from the shoulder. Phaser rifles are as often as not fired from the hip and show no recoil whatsoever.

Generally agreed that hand phasers can't transfer KE, and that phasers before the pulse phaser can't transfer KE.

So your objection to pulse phasers having no KE transfer is because we see no visible effects of recoil?

Go to a range, rent a .22-caliber rifle, buy a box of ammunition, and then tell us that there's no recoil if you fire from the shoulder.

We would have to treat this on a case-by-case basis. People do shoot pulse phaser rifles from their shoulders,


(From DW's site, hosted on my own webspace)

If I am not incorrect, this is from ST:FC.

It is, the lack of a sight on the top of the light gives it away.

Also, phaser rifles fired from the hip and having no recoil could be explained by the settings sufficiently powered down not to impart KE, if we don't see any momentum in that specific shot. We also have to examine who was firing the phaser rifle -- for example, Data could handle firing a rifle transferring KE and having no noticable recoil, or maybe Worf.

What I am saying is that we have to treat this on a case-by-case basis. We need to find examples of a Borg drone being pushed back, or the Reman example, and see how the person was holding the rifle.

You just don't get it, do you?

We shouldn't go for the technobabble solution -- we're more reasonable than Trek engineers after all.

Brian

Trying to deny the laws of physics is exactly what a trek engineer would do.

[brianeyci]

In TNG, using a type II phaser (the dustbuster), I found 42 incidents were the target's motion was changed simultanious with being hit by a phaser. Of those 42, 29 of them had the target knocked backwards with enough force to unbalance them. I also looked for any evidence of recoil, and I could not find a single event where phasers caused a recoil.

Shit, I had no idea that there was so many instances of people being pushed back. And by a dustbuster at that.

In Nemesis, all of the Remans were hit by Pulse Phaser Rifles, and all of them were thrown. The borg staggered a little bit, but then fell. (I really can't think of another word to describe the effect.) The only exceptions were the borg who where shot while they were out on the deflector dish. They went flying. Perhaps someone smarter than I can calculate the whack it took to make them go flying at the observed velocities and overcome whatever they were using to allow themselves to walk around.

The lack of recoil, even in Pulse Phaser Rifles, implies that there is something else going on, but it is not KE transfer in the same way that a modern firearm works.

Well we would have to examine on a case-by-case basis. How many of those Remans were thrown back by a phaser rifle held by Data? Were they holding the pulse phaser rifle like in the screenshot above? When you say flying, do you mean like that Klingon in ST:III?

You need the technobabble to explain it because the observed events violate Newton's third law.

Agreed, so long as we see that the Remans thrown back were not all thrown back by a phaser held by Data.

I never speculated it took insane amounts of energy, simply that it took more than just killing a person.

You said this,

Also, vaping of a humanoid target is very uncommon using Starfleet equipment. This might indicate that there is a very high energy
requirement, compared to the other modes of operation.

Which to me is speculation on high energy requirements, if not insane. We don't need to draw the conclusion that vaporization requires a lot of energy.

From my, admitedly limited, point of view, vaporization is only needed in two situations:

1. Times when it would be really inconvenient to have a body turn up. E.g. anytime stealth is needed.

2. Any time where you really don't want your target to get back up. No matter how good the doctors are, they can't save a person whose been vaporized. Plus, its probably got a pretty profound psychological effect on the bystanders.

Well I have a far more limited POV than you, given that I haven't watched the whole of TNG looking specifically for phaser effects. I can't think of anything else -- stealth, expediency, terror are the only reasons I can think of for vaporization and you have already listed them.

What do you think this technobabble effect is? Is it possible to explain the flying bodies without disregarding Newton's Third Law and introducing some unexplained technobabble effect?

Brian

[Questor]

The Klingon in ST3 was not thrown back by a simply KE transfer. Watch the clip; his movement is extremely unnatural and bears no resemblance to a proper ballistic path. It is physically impossible for a single shove to produce that movement.

Agreed. None of the events that occur in TNG are that spectacular, all of them involve people being knocked a few centimeters off the ground.

Regarding the klingon, is it possible that his disintigration is providing thrust somehow?

[brianeyci]

Go to a range, rent a .22-caliber rifle, buy a box of ammunition, and then tell us that there's no recoil if you fire from the shoulder.

Sigh. I don't have to... I've fired about twelve bullets my whole life from a .22 pistol (I think it was .22, it was definitely a very small caliber). I was using one hand, and I think I could feel the recoil. I am a pretty skinny guy though.

Trying to deny the laws of physics is exactly what a trek engineer would do.

Agreed. So what would explain the flying back of bodies? Something during which the phaser beam gains kinetic energy midflight? The Genesis incident might not follow a ballistic patch as DW mentioned, but what about the Remans and the Borgs, are their reactions consistent with being hit by something with a lot of Kinetic energy or were they thrown back strangely like by the phaser on the Genesis planet?

Brian

[SPOOFE]

It is physically impossible for a single shove to produce that movement.

Clearly this proves that phasers are artificially intelligent and are capable of manipulating objects with a variety of fields and tractor beams. Star Wars doesn't stand a chance!

[Batman]

Shit, I had no idea that there was so many instances of people being pushed back. And by a dustbuster at that.

Brian, the very Klingon in your first pic was send flying through the air by a pistol phaser.

The lack of recoil, even in Pulse Phaser Rifles, implies that there is something else going on, but it is not KE transfer in the same way that a modern firearm works.

Well we would have to examine on a case-by-case basis.

Why? Whywhywhywhy? We already know phasers don't work via KE transfer.

You need the technobabble to explain it because the observed events violate Newton's third law.

Agreed, so long as we see that the Remans thrown back were not all thrown back by a phaser held by Data.

Also, vaping of a humanoid target is very uncommon using Starfleet equipment. This might indicate that there is a very high energy
requirement, compared to the other modes of operation.

Which to me is speculation on high energy requirements,

Curious, then, how in-universe the vaporize setting is associated with high power settings.

[Questor]

Well we would have to examine on a case-by-case basis. How many of those Remans were thrown back by a phaser rifle held by Data? Were they holding the pulse phaser rifle like in the screenshot above? When you say flying, do you mean like that Klingon in ST:III?

Data didn't touch a phaser rifle in Nemesis. The shots were fired from the shoulder of goldshirts, Worf, Riker, and Picard. By flying I mean they were lifted a few centimeters off the ground.

Agreed, so long as we see that the Remans thrown back were not all thrown back by a phaser held by Data.

Even Data would have to deal with the recoil being above his center of gravity, there would be some visual indication of it.

What do you think this technobabble effect is? Is it possible to explain the flying bodies without disregarding Newton's Third Law and introducing some unexplained technobabble effect?

I have no idea, I'll have to leave that up to the people who are smarter than me.

[Batman]

Slightly OT: Brian, assuming it's technically possible could you be bothered to crop your pictures in the future? They regularly fuck up the formatting of the threads, at least for me (1024x768).
IF it's not doable or affects nobody but me, nevermind.

[brianeyci]

Why? Whywhywhywhy? We already know phasers don't work via KE transfer.

Because if all the instances of throwing back were by a phaser held by Data, Data could have handled the recoil and made it looked like there was no recoil.

I didn't know there was so many instances of people being thrown back by dustbusters. The Genesis example I had always attributed to some wonky effect present only on the Genesis planet.

Curious, then, how in-universe the vaporize setting is associated with high power settings.

I don't disptue this. I dispute the assertion that vaporizing someone requires high energy requirements. Higher settings might just mean a slight increase in energy required, not that vaporizing someone would drain the phaser.

Brian

[brianeyci]

Slightly OT: Brian, assuming it's technically possible could you be bothered to crop your pictures in the future? They regularly fuck up the formatting of the threads, at least for me (1024x768).
IF it's not doable or affects nobody but me, nevermind.

Well sure. I just download my pictures from wherever I can get them. It affects me too, I'm at 1024x768, but I don't think it could affect a higher resolution.

Lol my monitor can go up to 1600x1200, but I go to this resolution because I like seeing the buttons. And yes I know there is a zoom function, but trying to find small buttons and squinting at the screen is not fun -- I'm glad there is someone out there that agrees with me

Brian

[Batman]

Why? Whywhywhywhy? We already know phasers don't work via KE transfer.

Because if all the instances of throwing back were by a phaser held by Data, Data could have handled the recoil and made it looked like there was no recoil.

No he couldn't.
1. Data is not immensely heavier than a human, nor is his center of gravity any lower. We're talking about recoil that makes a Light Fifty go and hide in the closet. He'd topple over.
2. We already know phasers can do stuff like that with no recoil. Why assume pulse phaser rifles are any different.

Curious, then, how in-universe the vaporize setting is associated with high power settings.

I don't disptue this. I dispute the assertion that vaporizing someone requires high energy requirements. Higher settings might just mean a slight increase in energy required, not that vaporizing someone would drain the phaser.

Who ever said it would drain the phaser??? Given that the very charactrs that use the bloody things associate vaporization with high power output, wouldn't you think that while the energy usage difference might not be monumental, it is nevertheless likely to be siginificant?
BTW, Jason, sorry for dragging this off-topic like that. Brian and me seem to be cursed to lock horns with each other...
I'm reasonably certain that aught to have been 'more heavy' further up. Oh well...

[brianeyci]

1. Data is not immensely heavier than a human, nor is his center of gravity any lower. We're talking about recoil that makes a Light Fifty go and hide in the closet. He'd topple over.
2. We already know phasers can do stuff like that with no recoil. Why assume pulse phaser rifles are any different.

The point was already conceded -- phasers don't work with KE transfer. I was too stupid to realize point 1, and I didn't know about point 2.

Who ever said it would drain the phaser??? Given that the very charactrs that use the bloody things associate vaporization with high power output, wouldn't you think that while the energy usage difference might not be monumental, it is nevertheless likely to be siginificant?

They don't associate vaporization with high power output. They associate vaporization with a high setting. A higher setting does not necessarily mean a "significant" increase in energy. The difference between setting 1 and setting 2 might just be 1 joule. Why assume that the energy requirements would be significant?

There are other reasons to assume why we don't see a lot of vaporizations. For example, Starfleet smartening up and realizing that vaporization is just as good as blasting a hole in someone. Or that in most cases, Starfleet guidelines authorize only non-lethal force.

Brian

[Batman]

1. Data is not immensely heavier than a human, nor is his center of gravity any lower. We're talking about recoil that makes a Light Fifty go and hide in the closet. He'd topple over.
2. We already know phasers can do stuff like that with no recoil. Why assume pulse phaser rifles are any different.

The point was already conceded -- phasers don't work with KE transfer.

Well I'm a slow poster. So sue me.

I was too stupid to realize point 1, and I didn't know about point 2.

I assume you're referring to the 'pulse phaser=standard phaser' part of it as you yourself posted a pic of a pistol phaser doin it with no recoil. May I remind you that we had an extended exchange a while ago about that?

Who ever said it would drain the phaser??? Given that the very charactrs that use the bloody things associate vaporization with high power output, wouldn't you think that while the energy usage difference might not be monumental, it is nevertheless likely to be siginificant?

They don't associate vaporization with high power output. They associate vaporization with a high setting. A higher setting does not necessarily mean a "significant" increase in energy. The difference between setting 1 and setting 2 might just be 1 joule.

Brian, you're reaching again. By your reasoning the difference between the enrgy requirements of setting one and setting 16 of a Type II is 15 joules.

Why assume that the energy requirements would be significant?

Because people continually say so? Because it makes sense? Because we never see anybody accidentally vaporising anybody because their phaser was out of synch?

[brianeyci]

I assume you're referring to the 'pulse phaser=standard phaser' part of it as you yourself posted a pic of a pistol phaser doin it with no recoil. May I remind you that we had an extended exchange a while ago about that?

No, that is not what I am referring to. I thought that the only instance of someone being pushed back by a phaser was on the Genesis planet, which I dismissed as some technobabble Genesis effect. I thought the Reman and Borg pushbacks were unique. I didn't realize that the dustbuster pushed people back.

Our discussion about phasers was about the halo around pulse phaser rifle shots and whether or not a phaser rifle would make a difference shooting tritanium. The conclusion was that the halo was some sort of useless pyrotechnics, and that a phaser rifle would not make a difference shooting phaser resistant materials if a hand phaser couldn't do it. I don't see how that discussion has bearing on this one.

Brian, you're reaching again. By your reasoning the difference between the enrgy requirements of setting one and setting 16 of a Type II is 15 joules.

Which is why I say "might". It might be a far greater difference.

Because people continually say so? Because it makes sense? Because we never see anybody accidentally vaporising anybody because their phaser was out of synch?

People always talk about settings, never the energy requirements. Why must you assume Federation stupidity? They are stupid, but they don't have to be stupid all the time. Their phasers could be well-engineered enough so they don't go out of sync.

Very well, let us assume that the difference between setting 15 and setting 16 is great. To be "significant", or in other words to be meaningful to the user, you would have to be able to drain your phaser after enough vaporizations.

So a "significant" energy drain would mean that a phaser could be rendered ammunitionless faster if the user continually used the vaporize setting rather than the "punch a hole" setting. But why do we need to assume this?

To assume that vaporization requires "significant" energy is not necessary. You can explain the lack of vaporizations by Starfleet smartening up realizing that vaporization is the same as inflicting a lethal wound, or even with Starfleet's regulations about lethal force. Just because they don't vaporize a lot doesn't mean they can't. And even a small increase in energy requirements would be enough for a real soldier to start using non-vaporizing settings -- every shot counts, and why vaporize if you can burn a hole? For example, if you could do 20 shots with non-vaporization, but 21 with vaporization, a soldier would pick 20, because he would realize that the hit to the torso needed to vaporize would be the same as burning a hole through someone.

Brian

[AdmiralKanos]

You ask why the vape setting should be assumed to use up more ammo than regular kill settings? Why do you think they don't use it for the more militaristic weapons, then? For a military weapon, you want your ammo to last as long as possible, and that means conserving it and not wasting too much of it per shot.

PS. How old are you? Seriously, your posts tend to betray an inability to form correlations and logical deductions on your own, hence people need to keep spelling everything out for you before you get it.

[brianeyci]

You ask why the vape setting should be assumed to use up more ammo than regular kill settings? Why do you think they don't use it for the more militaristic weapons, then? For a military weapon, you want your ammo to last as long as possible, and that means conserving it and not wasting too much of it per shot.

No you misunderstand me. I agree that vape settings use more ammunition. There was an assertion above that vaporization would require a "significantly" higher energy than vaporization. My argument against this was exactly your point -- that it is not necessary to assume a
"significant" energy requirement for vaporization, that there are other reasons.

<edit>Just to clarify, that's why I had the 20 shots for kill to 21 shots for vaporization example. If a soldier wanted his ammo to last as long as possible, he would choose the kill shots, especially if there was no difference between kill and vape shots.</edit>

PS. How old are you? Seriously, your posts tend to betray an inability to form correlations and logical deductions on your own, hence people need to keep spelling everything out for you before you get it.

What is logical and correlative to one person may not be to another. I am new to this scene -- I know you have heard all of this before, but I haven't. Age has little to do with being illogical -- I know people who are way older and far more irrational. I have learned a few things about logic since being here. Such as how silly it is to introduce a fuckload of unknowns to explain something (I'm ditching the "assisted-aiming" argument, but then I don't have a rational explaination for how the gun-shaped TOS phasers turned into banana guns, which is why the theory was so attractive to me in the first place.)

I just turned twenty in October.

Brian