Your Favorite (On-Screen) Battle of the Dominion War

[JME2]

The Dominion War was unique in many different ways. On reason is that for the first time in Trek, a conflict lasted longer than an episode or two. Secondly, it finally allowed the massive fleet to fleet battles that fans had been dreaming of for years, but had never really been seen due to the limitations of modelss and budgets. Though war is never fun or easy, the Battles of the Dominion War still provided Trekies with entertainment as our heroes fought for their way of life in the interstellar playground created by Gene Roddenberry. Of all of the major battles from the two year conflict, which is your favorite and why?

[Stofsk]

The Battle of Deep Space Nine. It was the only one which didn't suck as bad as the others.

SoA - the Federation only won because the High Emmisary Sisko Prayed to the Skygods of the Celestial Temple to grant deliverance onto his lowly masses. A thousand Jem'Hadar battleships and frigates just disappear. Thanks for that, says Sisko, NOW HANDLE THE REST OF THE SHIPS IN THE AQ. "Oh sorry, we can't do that, as that would be against our philosophy bullshit."

Chintoka - only won through a dubious technobabble solution, while the opposition somehow had impervious shielding and insurmountable weaponry, when they were like 1/100th the size of the Fleet's heavy battleships. I was sitting there watching it and I simply couldn't understand what the hell they were talking about.

Ar-888 or whatever - yeah, didn't see it, so I can't comment. I've heard shit from it though.

The Breen Strike Back - yeah, a force who we don't get to know in 14 years of TNG and DS9 seasons, somehow rises up and challenges starfleet. Not only that, but they use a weapon which can somehow disable Starfleet ships. I was throwing shit at the TV screen.

The Coalition of the Willing Strike Back - I never thought I'd be bored watching a battle scene, but somehow, "What you leave behind" accomplished the improbable feat. Boring end.

The Battle for DS9 - The good guys had a plan, and they implemented it while being under attack by the dominion forces. The technobabble solution at the end was introduced at the start of the episode as being vital to the strategy of mining the wormhole, and they had days to design and implement said mines (it's not like Sisko praying to the gods literally seconds before the reinforcements arrive, or Kira doing some shit to "fool" enemy targeting computers or whatever...), and finally they retreated once it became clear that they couldn't hold out and that the wormhole had been successfully mined. In comparison, it was the best battle because it's primary strategic interest - seal the entrance to the wormhole to prevent Dominion reinforcements - was completed, while secondary tactical interests - deplete the Dominion fleet of ships by blasting them to rubble - was also completed.

[JME2]

Yeah, I also have issues with the whole dues ex machina solution from SoA. I also dislike the Advance on Cardassia due to the reuse of footage from SoA, TotP, and even STG.

But the shot of the Dominion fleet gathered above Cardassia for their last stand is worth it


The same also goes for the Feds surging forwards inm 'SoA' after Sisko gives the order

[Uraniun235]

SR-558: Ugh. Good lord. Make it stop. No more; forget anyone ever asked about Federation ground tactics, ever, just don't ever show us a battle like that again. And way to lose such amazing technology as the photon mortar, shitheads.

SoA: Just another in a long line of "yay, we didn't have to show the battle again!" hat tricks from the boys at Paramount

Chintoka: Because We Can't Write A Good War

Breen: Oh, hey, there's other races out there we haven't seen in forever like the Gorn, the Tholians, but no, we have to make up another race which is a BLATANT RIP-OFF of that mask-dealy that Leia wore in Return Of The Jedi. Gosh, aren't we such better writers than those hacks at Voyager?

What You Leave Behind: Well, we've shot through our budget, so we'll recycle footage like crazy and then abort the second half of the battle.

That, combined with the fact that I really don't think they ever really knew how to put together a good suspenseful fleet battle, results in NONE of the above battles being my favorite.

And, quite frankly, I don't think the Federation was ever truly intended to have gigantic fleet furballs with hundreds of ships clashing simultaneously in the same place; I think fleets more akin to what was assembled at Wolf 359 were originally thought of to be more the norm, with skirmishes erupting between small starship groups along lines of battle and larger groups fighting over key positions.

I guess in the 24th century, war is fought by veterans of the Command and Conquer campaigns.

[Sarevok]

The battle of Chintoka system was great. My only problem with it is how they used a technobabble method to destroy the Cardassian defense platforms.

[Ubiquitous]

What about 'Way of the Warrior', the first true fleet battle in Trek?

WotW, CtA and SoA's were all brilliant. I love space battles, and each one of them kept me rewinding to re-watch them again and again. Excellent!

WYLB was a major let down though, due to the aformentioned re-use of old battles on an industrial scale. Cardassia orbit shot was *incredible* though.

[Gandalf]

Battle for DS9, because we finally see Dukat get his station back.

I think that was the only battle from the whole War where we didn't see the half destroyed Miranda class ship flying at the screen.

[JME2]

What about 'Way of the Warrior', the first true fleet battle in Trek?:D

From a certain point of view yes- unless you count Wolf 359 as seen in Emissary.

[Stofsk]

That wasn't a battle involving 40 ships; that was 40 ships involved in individual skirmishes.

[Alyeska]

Breen: Oh, hey, there's other races out there we haven't seen in forever like the Gorn, the Tholians, but no, we have to make up another race which is a BLATANT RIP-OFF of that mask-dealy that Leia wore in Return Of The Jedi. Gosh, aren't we such better writers than those hacks at Voyager?

Actualy the Breen have been around since TNG. We hear about them constantly. We get indications they are powerful, yet reclusive. They are talked about with respect and mistrust. Then we get to see them for the first time in DS9 and learn they are powerful enough they would consider attacking a Cardassian ship and enslaving its crew while not fearful of reprisals. Their use later in the war as allies to the Dominion isn't very surprising.

[JME2]

Breen: Oh, hey, there's other races out there we haven't seen in forever like the Gorn, the Tholians, but no, we have to make up another race which is a BLATANT RIP-OFF of that mask-dealy that Leia wore in Return Of The Jedi. Gosh, aren't we such better writers than those hacks at Voyager?

Actualy the Breen have been around since TNG. We hear about them constantly. We get indications they are powerful, yet reclusive. They are talked about with respect and mistrust. Then we get to see them for the first time in DS9 and learn they are powerful enough they would consider attacking a Cardassian ship and enslaving its crew while not fearful of reprisals. Their use later in the war as allies to the Dominion isn't very surprising.

I think a lot of people were curious as to just why the Breen would ally with the Dominion; it went against their isolationist nature - though it did gain them Cardassian territory and the fear of the Allies, but it is still odd. I've, however, had a theory going for some time about this. I believe that prior to the Female Changeling contacting the Breen in Penumbra there may have been a coup in the Breen government by a group wanting to end Breen's isolationism and take a more active role in galactic affairs. Thots Ghot and Parn could have been involved with it.

Of course, it is simply as always, speculation.

[CJvR]

Actualy the Breen have been around since TNG. We hear about them constantly. We get indications they are powerful, yet reclusive. They are talked about with respect and mistrust. Then we get to see them for the first time in DS9 and learn they are powerful enough they would consider attacking a Cardassian ship and enslaving its crew while not fearful of reprisals. Their use later in the war as allies to the Dominion isn't very surprising.

Wasn't it the Romulans that had a saying about never trusing Breen?

[JME2]

Actualy the Breen have been around since TNG. We hear about them constantly. We get indications they are powerful, yet reclusive. They are talked about with respect and mistrust. Then we get to see them for the first time in DS9 and learn they are powerful enough they would consider attacking a Cardassian ship and enslaving its crew while not fearful of reprisals. Their use later in the war as allies to the Dominion isn't very surprising.

Wasn't it the Romulans that had a saying about never trusing Breen?

The saying is 'Never turn your back on a Breen' from By Inferno's Light.

[Gandalf]

I think a lot of people were curious as to just why the Breen would ally with the Dominion; it went against their isolationist nature - though it did gain them Cardassian territory and the fear of the Allies, but it is still odd. I've, however, had a theory going for some time about this. I believe that prior to the Female Changeling contacting the Breen in Penumbra there may have been a coup in the Breen government by a group wanting to end Breen's isolationism and take a more active role in galactic affairs. Thots Ghot and Parn could have been involved with it.

Of course, it is simply as always, speculation.

My theory:

The Breen, after much time of isolationism are beginning to crumble. Their isolationist ways are bad for their economy. Seeing a chance for expansion and a few good allies, they join the Dominion's war effort. Possibly because the Founder offered them terrirory.

Of course, this is speculation.

[JME2]

I think a lot of people were curious as to just why the Breen would ally with the Dominion; it went against their isolationist nature - though it did gain them Cardassian territory and the fear of the Allies, but it is still odd. I've, however, had a theory going for some time about this. I believe that prior to the Female Changeling contacting the Breen in Penumbra there may have been a coup in the Breen government by a group wanting to end Breen's isolationism and take a more active role in galactic affairs. Thots Ghot and Parn could have been involved with it.

Of course, it is simply as always, speculation.

My theory:

The Breen, after much time of isolationism are beginning to crumble. Their isolationist ways are bad for their economy. Seeing a chance for expansion and a few good allies, they join the Dominion's war effort. Possibly because the Founder offered them terrirory.

Of course, this is speculation.

Yours is better.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

The Battle of Deep Space Nine (Call to Arms)

Stupid. "What, the Defiant is laying a minefield? Fuck that, let's attack the unmoving station." When a single fucking BoP can provide cover against a fleet you know the writers are idiots.

Operation Return (Sacrifice of Angels)

Wow, seconds of battle scenes mostly involving Mirandas exploding, followed by boring bridges scenes, and a ending proving the writers are no talent hacks.

The Chin'toka Invasion (Tears of the Prophets)

Wow, now we get to see ships blow up the platforms without a fight, then the platforms wipe out the ships, more boring bridge talk, and then a fucking technobable ending. Yeah! [/quote]

AR-558 (The Siege of AR-558)

Worst fucking ground combat ever. What, a easily defendable chokepoint. Time for H-t-H! Bullshit.

The Chin'toka Retreat (The Changing Face of Evil)

Yeah, let's see the Breen, who's biggest mentions have been disruptors, cloaks and high quality freezers can now suddenly wipe out anything short of a fucking Borg cube. Fucking writers. I'd rate this a better battle if the cowards hadn't given them a fucking new Defiant shortly later.

Advance on Cardassia (What You Leave Behind)

What, we have no special effects budget for the last episode with the final battle? Why not stick scenes of other battles together? Combine that with some soap opera bullshit about everyone leaving and another hack ending and you got a grade a crappy ending.

The only battles that were okay in the whole of DS9 were perhaps the Defiant vs. Klingon ships in WOTW and the Alternate Universe fight. Nothing in the DW was impressive, concidering it started with a battle who's combatents included fat shuttles.

[Alyeska]

Stupid. "What, the Defiant is laying a minefield? Fuck that, let's attack the unmoving station." When a single fucking BoP can provide cover against a fleet you know the writers are idiots.

They had to attack the station because it was in range to support the Defiant.

Wow, seconds of battle scenes mostly involving Mirandas exploding, followed by boring bridges scenes, and a ending proving the writers are no talent hacks.

Try watching agian. Very little of the battle had to do with Mirandas. When it comes to pure battle footage, Sacrafice Angels had more in a single episode then any other episode of DS9.

Yeah, let's see the Breen, who's biggest mentions have been disruptors, cloaks and high quality freezers can now suddenly wipe out anything short of a fucking Borg cube. Fucking writers. I'd rate this a better battle if the cowards hadn't given them a fucking new Defiant shortly later.

Are you done whining like a little girl. The Breen were always mentioned in a level of respect. They aren't as powerful as the other main governments, but after a year and a half of war, they were nearly enough to tip the scales.

[JME2]

In comparison, it was the best battle because it's primary strategic interest - seal the entrance to the wormhole to prevent Dominion reinforcements - was completed, while secondary tactical interests - deplete the Dominion fleet of ships by blasting them to rubble - was also completed.

Well the tactical goals for SoA were good in my eyes, helping to create a sense of supsense.

For the Dominion: To achieve victory, the Dominion must either destroy or delay the Federation task-force long enough so that the deconstruction of the minefield can be completed without interference. Once that is achieved, the Dominion reinforcements which have been building up in the Gamma Quadrant for the past four months can join the Alpha Quadrant war effort. Since the servants of the Founders are already winning the war against the Federation, the arrival of 2,800 extra ships from the Gamma Quadrant would virtually ensure victory.

For the Federation: To achieve victory, ships from the Fed task force must break through the Dominion fleet, and then travel onto Terok Nor. Once there, they must destroy the station’s anti-graviton emitter to prevent the Cardassians from disabling, and then denoting, the entire minefield. Failure would mean the certain death of the UFP, and the fall of the Alpha Quadrant to the Dominion. As well as facing the Dominion fleet, the UFP are also up against a time limit - eight hours remain before the Cardassians destroy the minefield.

[Wired_Grenadier]

I wasn't very impressed by any battle of that war as they basically were just the same as 18th century ships shooting it out. No real tactics, no intelligent moves, just too masses flying into each others way and shooting, and that at distances below even two or three kilometres. With the basically long-range battles of B5 (mind, compared to Trek) I'm used to better dynamics and tactics. *shrugs*

[Stofsk]

Well the tactical goals for SoA were good in my eyes, helping to create a sense of supsense.

Agreed, SoA was suspenseful. The problem I had was the ending which proved the writers didn't think about the consequences of their actions.

*snip Dominion strategy*
Once that is achieved, the Dominion reinforcements which have been building up in the Gamma Quadrant for the past four months can join the Alpha Quadrant war effort. Since the servants of the Founders are already winning the war against the Federation, the arrival of 2,800 extra ships from the Gamma Quadrant would virtually ensure victory.

Good point. Instead of wiping out those thousands of ships with the Hand of God, how about this for an alternative?

The Dominion, unbeknownst to the AQ, has had to deal with a Borg invasion, or insurgency on trouble worlds. This has lead it to tie up it's resources in defeating the problem in the GQ. That means they can only send a couple hundred ships, if that, to reinforce their AQ front. So the Dominion and Cardassian alliance will get a shot in the arm, but the war wouldn't be over.

As for the handling of the battle, wouldn't it have been nice to have seen DS9 open fire on the assault fleet coming through the wormhole? Remember why DS9 became a battlestation? It was supposedly for the whole purpose of defending the AQ from Dominion incursions. Also, the battle for DS9 should have taken place near DS9, not someplace else.

Imagine that: the Federation fleet arrives at the Bajoran sector, where the Dominion and Cardassian fleet await them. Sisko's plan was to utilise Kira and her resistance forces, who instead of doing petty acts like sow discontent between the Jemmies and Cardies has been acting like a good girl in prep for what she has to do. For most of the battle it's just the Federation ships duking it out with the Dominion ships. At this point the last mine is disabled by DS9 and Dukat gives the order to fire-

-Just when Kira and her resistance force storm Ops with the intent to capture the station. Say Ziyal helped her, and that embarassing shit with Damar never occured (how many times do we need to see dainty Kira slug a guy who's bigger than her? Not that I didn't want to see Damar go down, but geez, kick him in the balls instead of boxing him). So now there's TWO battles for DS9, the struggle outside and the struggle inside. ANd both sides are getting increasingly desperate.

Kira manages to secure Ops easily thanks to surprise. She sets up transporter blockers, as Dukat and the survivors beamed out as a retreating action. They're probably going to smash Ops if given the chance, but thankfully Dukat warmed up the guns. Acting quickly, Jake or whoever goes to the weapons console and opens up on the Dominion fleet, completely surprising them.

Now here's the kicker: Dukat knows the last mine has been disabled, but his fleet is getting decimated. So, he orders a squadron to attempt to clear the minefield at least partially to allow some reinforcements in. Now here's where the fleet on the other side of the wormhole comes in. Let's say the squadron manages to clear a third of the minefield, before either being destroyed or driven off, then Dukat realises this is as good as it gets so makes the call. But then tells them some ships will make it, some won't.

There. Perfect end to a hard fought battle. The Dominion fleet comes through the wormhole - to everyone's surprise there's few of them than they were expecting. We see some ships get destroyed thanks to the minefield, others just get damaged. It makes no difference, as the station is in the hands of the Federation again and it's wasn't damaged during the fight that much. The Federation and Klingon fleet has been depleted, but no significantly enough to not cause pain or a stalemate should the reinforced Dominion fleet decide to push on. Dukat chooses to withdraw.

Instead of going insane with grief he goes dangerously unstable with revenge. In his mind he's become unhinged but not to the degree that he was before ie useless at his job. He thinks Ziyal has been brainwashed or something by Kira, and retaliates by cooly detonating several hidden bombs on Bajor. Let's say they were put their on his initiative, and Weyoun knew nothing and is indeed almost scathingly furious at Dukat for doing what he does. Dukat doesn't even bat an eyelid.

Kira hears the news and breaks down. Sisko hears the news and feels like a failure. The battle was won... but the war continues.

[JME2]

An interesting idea and one that I like a great deal. As for the Prophets ex machina , here's writer Ron Moore's feelings on it:

"The intervention of the Prophets was discussed at length by the entire staff many times before we worked it out during the break session (outlining session) of "Sacrifice". We felt that the Prophets' intervention made sense in the overall context of the series. After all, the pilot introduced Sisko to the Prophets and his journey from a man who didn't believe in them to a man asking them to behave like gods was a story that has always felt important to the series. The actions in "Sacrifice" were not just dumped in at the last moment, but flowed organically from what has gone before. "

[Stofsk]

My god, Moore makes writing bullshit sound like bowel movements: "...but flowed organically from what has gone before."

You know, if they wanted to use the Prophets in such a manner, why didn't they simply use established precedent within the show? In "Emissary" the Prophets refused to let the wormhole work. Why not do the same thing? Why did they have to mine the entrance to the wormhole, anyway? Sisko should have just gone in there and said "Hey look, remember what I said 6 years ago, about not being beligerent and agressive arseholes? Yeah, well, thing is..."

ZAP! Wormhole closes forever.

[JME2]

My god, Moore makes writing bullshit sound like bowel movements: "...but flowed organically from what has gone before."

You know, if they wanted to use the Prophets in such a manner, why didn't they simply use established precedent within the show? In "Emissary" the Prophets refused to let the wormhole work. Why not do the same thing? Why did they have to mine the entrance to the wormhole, anyway? Sisko should have just gone in there and said "Hey look, remember what I said 6 years ago, about not being beligerent and agressive arseholes? Yeah, well, thing is..."

ZAP! Wormhole closes forever.

And for your persona entertainment, Moore's response to that question:

"No. Sisko had no reason to believe that the Prophets would intervene in this situation as they have never shown any inclination to get involved in "linear" affairs up until now."

[Stofsk]

"Ronald Moore! Ronald Moore!

He steals from the poor and he gives to the rich!

STUPID BITCH."

Oh Moore, you sing and dance better than any man I know, but your fabulous amounts of bullshit become you.