Sovergein vs Prometheus

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Who wins ?

Prometheus
9
21%
Sovergein
34
79%
 
Total votes: 43

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Post by CJvR »

HRogge wrote:The prometheus is a newer design than the Defiant... the Defiant was designed shortly after the borg problem, the prometheus much later.
Yes... and?

Defiant is a much more extreme combat oriented design than Prom and on a ton for ton basis probably the deadliest shiptype in the galaxy, baring über races. Even if it is built with older tech it is still the latest ship of it's type. Designing a new Defiant around new tech but the same concept would make the new ship even nastier.
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Post by Alyeska »

CJvR wrote:
HRogge wrote:The prometheus is a newer design than the Defiant... the Defiant was designed shortly after the borg problem, the prometheus much later.
Yes... and?

Defiant is a much more extreme combat oriented design than Prom and on a ton for ton basis probably the deadliest shiptype in the galaxy, baring über races. Even if it is built with older tech it is still the latest ship of it's type. Designing a new Defiant around new tech but the same concept would make the new ship even nastier.
You are incorrect on a few counts. The Defiant is no more combat oriented then the Prometheus. The Prometheus-A was a prototype warship and the Prometheus-B could probably curbstomp even the Sovereign-B class.

A "New" Defiant is not possible given the issue of size. It already has a powerful reactor for its size, has PPCs, and quantum torpedoes. Starfleet doesn't have anything better to put on the ship except maybe Regenerative shields.
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Post by CJvR »

Alyeska wrote:You are incorrect on a few counts. The Defiant is no more combat oriented then the Prometheus. The Prometheus-A was a prototype warship and the Prometheus-B could probably curbstomp even the Sovereign-B class.

A "New" Defiant is not possible given the issue of size. It already has a powerful reactor for its size, has PPCs, and quantum torpedoes. Starfleet doesn't have anything better to put on the ship except maybe Regenerative shields.
Perhaps I phrased it poorly. What I ment to say was that by it's nature as a short ranged gunship the Defiant can take shortcuts that Prometheus can't. Defiant can use high maintanence systems since it will be tied up at a base for most of the time. Prometheus will be out on long cruises where there will be no repair facilities other than whay the ship itself is capable of, that means more safety margin and less efficiency. Defiant need less supplies, fewer crew, less fuel and it can push it's systems harder. Prometheus need to stay out longer, have a larger crew and more fuel. All this means that Defiant can use more of her available mass and volume to weapons than any cruiser no matter how combat oriented could hope to match. It is not that both ships aren't as warlike as the Feds are able to make them it's simply that the Defiants can cut corners that the Prometheus can't.

Prom-B? Would that be the Prometheus on steroids without the MVAM crap? Such a ship probably would be able to give the Soverigns a run for their money if they are big enough. It would make an intresting story about the friction in SF over the new powerful warships entering service. They would free up a lot of explorers while making the Federation stronger and safer than ever.

The Defiant project is about 10 years old. The Federation have fought major technology driving wars in those years. Don't you think they would find something to improve? It might not be revolutionary but more of a natural evolution of better systems.
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Post by Alyeska »

CJvR wrote:Perhaps I phrased it poorly. What I ment to say was that by it's nature as a short ranged gunship the Defiant can take shortcuts that Prometheus can't. Defiant can use high maintanence systems since it will be tied up at a base for most of the time. Prometheus will be out on long cruises where there will be no repair facilities other than whay the ship itself is capable of, that means more safety margin and less efficiency. Defiant need less supplies, fewer crew, less fuel and it can push it's systems harder. Prometheus need to stay out longer, have a larger crew and more fuel. All this means that Defiant can use more of her available mass and volume to weapons than any cruiser no matter how combat oriented could hope to match. It is not that both ships aren't as warlike as the Feds are able to make them it's simply that the Defiants can cut corners that the Prometheus can't.
That makes the Defiant more powerful in some regards, but not a better warship persay.
Prom-B? Would that be the Prometheus on steroids without the MVAM crap? Such a ship probably would be able to give the Soverigns a run for their money if they are big enough. It would make an intresting story about the friction in SF over the new powerful warships entering service. They would free up a lot of explorers while making the Federation stronger and safer than ever.
The Prometheus-B is 25% larger as well as not having MVAM. This means you can delete all the space wasted for docking, armor, bulkheads, etc... That frees up a LOT of room. Then increase the size of the ship by 25%. This will create a pure warship with a lot more room to spare. It could easily hold a Sovereign warp core (if not better since its newer). Supposedly some of the hidden weapon systems are now exposed. This would mean better phasers then the Sovereign with a strong possibility of equal torpedo coverage. Given the likelyhood of an equal to better core in the Prometheus it will have at least the same shield power covering less surface area giving it better shield coverage.

I could see the Prometheus-B gunning down a Sovereign in a good hard fought battle, and the Prometheus is maybe half the size of a Sovereign.
The Defiant project is about 10 years old. The Federation have fought major technology driving wars in those years. Don't you think they would find something to improve? It might not be revolutionary but more of a natural evolution of better systems.
Other then Regenerative shields, nothing of technological note has come about to be incorperated into the Defiant.
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Post by CJvR »

Alyeska wrote:That makes the Defiant more powerful in some regards, but not a better warship persay.
No they have different tasks. Defiant would suck at Prometheus job and Prom could never match the Defiant at it's - delivering maximum firepower at minimum expense to anything willing to come into range.
Alyeska wrote:The Prometheus-B is 25% larger as well as not having MVAM. This means you can delete all the space wasted for docking, armor, bulkheads, etc... That frees up a LOT of room. Then increase the size of the ship by 25%. This will create a pure warship with a lot more room to spare. It could easily hold a Sovereign warp core (if not better since its newer). Supposedly some of the hidden weapon systems are now exposed. This would mean better phasers then the Sovereign with a strong possibility of equal torpedo coverage. Given the likelyhood of an equal to better core in the Prometheus it will have at least the same shield power covering less surface area giving it better shield coverage.
Mmmm... I wan't one. I think there could be some benefit in keeping a variant of the split core design of the Prometheus-A. It would make the ship moch harder to cripple. Where did the Prom-B come from?
Alyeska wrote:Other then Regenerative shields, nothing of technological note has come about to be incorperated into the Defiant.
The Feds need to hire Vader to help "Motivate" their R&D division.
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Post by SirNitram »

Correct me if I'm wrong, but all we know about the 'new' Prometheus is what we saw in Endgame. I don't recall anything indicating it's gotten rid of it's MVAM, though it's definately larger. Now, I fully admit it might have appeared since. Somehow. Or before. But I don't recall anything showing MVAM is gone, and it sounds alot like Fan Speculation, or more accurately, Fan Feverent Wishing On Stars.
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Post by Alyeska »

SirNitram wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but all we know about the 'new' Prometheus is what we saw in Endgame. I don't recall anything indicating it's gotten rid of it's MVAM, though it's definately larger. Now, I fully admit it might have appeared since. Somehow. Or before. But I don't recall anything showing MVAM is gone, and it sounds alot like Fan Speculation, or more accurately, Fan Feverent Wishing On Stars.
The fact that is appeared to be larger supports the Prometheus-B statement. That and it didn't seperate for combat.
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Post by SirNitram »

Alyeska wrote:
SirNitram wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but all we know about the 'new' Prometheus is what we saw in Endgame. I don't recall anything indicating it's gotten rid of it's MVAM, though it's definately larger. Now, I fully admit it might have appeared since. Somehow. Or before. But I don't recall anything showing MVAM is gone, and it sounds alot like Fan Speculation, or more accurately, Fan Feverent Wishing On Stars.
The fact that is appeared to be larger supports the Prometheus-B statement. That and it didn't seperate for combat.
Alyeska, let us both be honest with ourselves. The instances where it seperated and the instance in Endgame are not identical. In Message, it seperated to beat down on much weaker ships. As I recall, it did not when threatened with two Defiants. This is where I get the theory it seperated for rapidly taking down weak ships. Since a Borg ship is easily as big a threat as a pair of homicidal Defiants, it would just as easily be that it doesn't seperate for combat against strong foes.

The entire idea that they ditched MVAM is simply unsupported speculation.
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Post by Alyeska »

SirNitram wrote:
Alyeska wrote:
SirNitram wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong, but all we know about the 'new' Prometheus is what we saw in Endgame. I don't recall anything indicating it's gotten rid of it's MVAM, though it's definately larger. Now, I fully admit it might have appeared since. Somehow. Or before. But I don't recall anything showing MVAM is gone, and it sounds alot like Fan Speculation, or more accurately, Fan Feverent Wishing On Stars.
The fact that is appeared to be larger supports the Prometheus-B statement. That and it didn't seperate for combat.
Alyeska, let us both be honest with ourselves. The instances where it seperated and the instance in Endgame are not identical. In Message, it seperated to beat down on much weaker ships. As I recall, it did not when threatened with two Defiants. This is where I get the theory it seperated for rapidly taking down weak ships. Since a Borg ship is easily as big a threat as a pair of homicidal Defiants, it would just as easily be that it doesn't seperate for combat against strong foes.

The entire idea that they ditched MVAM is simply unsupported speculation.
When it was being attacked by the two Defiants, it did nothing. So that doesn't count in the first place.

The creator of the ship stated that the production model was 25% larger and doesn't seperate. We see one in End Game that appears larger and doesn't seperate. I do think this gives credibility to the creators intentions.
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Post by SirNitram »

Alyeska wrote:
SirNitram wrote:
Alyeska wrote: The fact that is appeared to be larger supports the Prometheus-B statement. That and it didn't seperate for combat.
Alyeska, let us both be honest with ourselves. The instances where it seperated and the instance in Endgame are not identical. In Message, it seperated to beat down on much weaker ships. As I recall, it did not when threatened with two Defiants. This is where I get the theory it seperated for rapidly taking down weak ships. Since a Borg ship is easily as big a threat as a pair of homicidal Defiants, it would just as easily be that it doesn't seperate for combat against strong foes.

The entire idea that they ditched MVAM is simply unsupported speculation.
When it was being attacked by the two Defiants, it did nothing. So that doesn't count in the first place.

The creator of the ship stated that the production model was 25% larger and doesn't seperate. We see one in End Game that appears larger and doesn't seperate. I do think this gives credibility to the creators intentions.
Can you give a source on the creator's comment? You know I'm always leery on using those as canon, especially with Paramount's comments that only what's on the screen is canon.
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Post by Metrion Cascade »

In what sense did it appear bigger? Is there a scaling shot?

And no, nothing said in a magazine is canon at all. If it's in a tech manual, sure (until it's contradicted by what you see on the screen).
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Post by Metrion Cascade »

Chris OFarrell wrote:
HRogge wrote:
CJvR wrote:The Sov would take it, and it had better! It is 3-4 times larger than the Prom and on a similar technological level. Prom however being a purpose built warship rather than an upgunned explorer would deliver far more firepower/ton than a Sov. A Prom without the stupid MVAM would fave an even better firepower to mass rating. An equal mass of Sovs vs Proms would go to the Proms.
The Sovi is a dedicated war ship... it's not an explorer like the Galaxy class.
And your source for this is where exactly?
Its definitly appears to have more military hardware built into it, but nothing makes me think that its nothing BUT Battleship like the Defiant is. In the Dominion War she was performing diplomatic, scientific and exploration missions, not running around blasting everything.

Of course the diplomatic missions were mostly waving the Federations flag, impressing other cultures by showing Starfleet sending their new toy out to say hi. And while they were out there anyway, they could run around performing all manner of missions for the Federation.

But the Sovereign appears to be a direct descendent of the Galaxy mindset. Granted, Starfleets increasing militarisation is also reflected, but its not a Battleship. If it was, it would probably be as tightly cramped as the Defiant on the inside, only the Captian with his own room and all other space pointed at military applications. I mean when did you see the Defiant with a Stellar Cartography lab...
Maybe we need to rethink this "warship or science ship" dichotomy. How many battles in Trek have been decided by someone at a science station finding a weakness in the enemy or something in the environment that could be used? And certainly, if you're fighting a space battle in an area you don't have very good maps of, you'll want the ability to make maps as you go along. Any Fed ship worth its weight in salt will be both a warship and a science ship, in one mix or another.

And the ship's personnel accomodations may not simply be a matter of how biased it is towards a nonmilitary role. If a ship that size can only usefully carry a certain amount of hardware for weapons, shields, engines and such, and the controls are getting smaller, you'll get more leftover space. And with the automation of more and more jobs over time, you get a smaller crew to fit into the personnel space. For instance, it's expected that the DD-21 will require a third the crew of an Arleigh-Burke despite being something like 40% bigger. Combine that with the electronic replacement of various bulky and support-intensive mechanical parts like reduction gears and ship's service motor generators. IIRC, the last SECNAV wanted to see every crewmember on that ship get their own quarters and it looks like it'll happen.
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Post by SirNitram »

Metrion Cascade wrote:In what sense did it appear bigger? Is there a scaling shot?

And no, nothing said in a magazine is canon at all. If it's in a tech manual, sure (until it's contradicted by what you see on the screen).
Actually, John Ordover has specifically stated that only live-action Star Trek is canon. Provisions are given to two novels(Not tech manuals) and one episode of the Animated Series. Nothing else. Thus my skepticism.

I also found a picture of the Prometheus in Endgame. No sign of it being noticable larger, though it was crap for scaling.
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Post by Chris OFarrell »

Metrion Cascade wrote:In what sense did it appear bigger? Is there a scaling shot?

And no, nothing said in a magazine is canon at all. If it's in a tech manual, sure (until it's contradicted by what you see on the screen).
It wasn't said in a magazine, it was said by Rick Sternbach, the ST producer who designs all the ST ships, sets and control pannels. They fired him after Voyager ended, then had to go crawling back to him to design all the interiors of the Scimitar and Valdor (as well as the ships themselves for that matter, though he was under very specific constraints).

His exact quote was:

[RICK STERNBACH] My money’s on Prometheus, though I’d qualify that by saying it would be a 25% larger Prometheus (like the enlarged F/A-18E/F) that wouldn’t separate. This would be the latest thing out of the Advanced Starship Design Bureau, making the Sovereign as old as a Pentium II.

And there is no reason to not accept his word unless your anal retentive. He is the guy who MAKES the Starfleet ships and there is nothing that disproves his claims onscreen. The very fact that there is a non seperating Promethesus in Endgame supports his claims.
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Post by Metrion Cascade »

SirNitram wrote:
Metrion Cascade wrote:In what sense did it appear bigger? Is there a scaling shot?

And no, nothing said in a magazine is canon at all. If it's in a tech manual, sure (until it's contradicted by what you see on the screen).
Actually, John Ordover has specifically stated that only live-action Star Trek is canon. Provisions are given to two novels(Not tech manuals) and one episode of the Animated Series. Nothing else. Thus my skepticism.

I also found a picture of the Prometheus in Endgame. No sign of it being noticable larger, though it was crap for scaling.
Why John Ordover's word instead of, say, Roddenberry's (just for example)?

And a question about canon - if (as you stated a while back) Enterprise is the timeline created by Picard's actions in FC, why are most of the differences ones that Picard couldn't have caused (like the Xindi, the Suliban, Vulcans who can initiate mind melds becoming a minority)?
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Post by CJvR »

Metrion Cascade wrote:Maybe we need to rethink this "warship or science ship" dichotomy. How many battles in Trek have been decided by someone at a science station finding a weakness in the enemy or something in the environment that could be used?
Combat is so much simpler if you bring enough firepower to the party. 90% of all combat will be against enemies with known abilities meaning the SF ships science facilities are wasted and their reduced firepower dangerous. Consider the many desperate battles SF have fought in which they have been forced to send lightly armed exploration crafts against dedicated warships. Exchange half the Mirandas for Defiants and the Dominion war would be over in a week. SF's decission not to build any dedicated warships have cost them hundreds of ships and perhaps millions of casualties. Restructuring SF to give it a fighting branch would make it far more effective and release explorations ships from tasks they are poorly suited for.


Galaxy combat:...

Lt#1: "The enemy have opened fire!"

WHAM!

Lt#1: "Shields down 40%!"

Cap: "Return fire!"

Lt#2: "Enemy shields holding."

WHAM!

Lt#1 "Shields down 75%!"

Cap: "Find a way to take down their shields!"

SciOff: "Yes sir."

WHAM! WHAM!!!

Lt#1: "Shields have failed! We have a ruptured plasma conduit on deck 12!"

SciOff: "They use a (particle of the week) reactor, perhaps if we hit them with a phase polarised burst of (radiation of the week) it would take down their shields."

Cap: "Do it!"

Lt#2: "Firing now sir. Enemy shield have failed!"

Lt#1: "Enemy is retreating."


Prometheus combat:...

Lt#1: "The enemy have opened fire!"

WHAM!

Lt#1: "Shields down 10%!"

Cap: "Return fire!"

Lt#2: "Enemy shields fluctuating."

WHAM!

Lt#1 "Shields down 15%!"

Cap: "Find a way to take down..."

Lt#2: "Enemy shields have failed!"

Lt#1: "Enemy is venting plasma and atmosphere!"

SciOff: "What did you want me to do sir?"

Lt#2: "Target has been destroyed sir."

Cap: "Never mind."
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Post by SirNitram »

Chris OFarrell wrote:
Metrion Cascade wrote:In what sense did it appear bigger? Is there a scaling shot?

And no, nothing said in a magazine is canon at all. If it's in a tech manual, sure (until it's contradicted by what you see on the screen).
It wasn't said in a magazine, it was said by Rick Sternbach, the ST producer who designs all the ST ships, sets and control pannels. They fired him after Voyager ended, then had to go crawling back to him to design all the interiors of the Scimitar and Valdor (as well as the ships themselves for that matter, though he was under very specific constraints).

His exact quote was:

[RICK STERNBACH] My money’s on Prometheus, though I’d qualify that by saying it would be a 25% larger Prometheus (like the enlarged F/A-18E/F) that wouldn’t separate. This would be the latest thing out of the Advanced Starship Design Bureau, making the Sovereign as old as a Pentium II.

And there is no reason to not accept his word unless your anal retentive. He is the guy who MAKES the Starfleet ships and there is nothing that disproves his claims onscreen. The very fact that there is a non seperating Promethesus in Endgame supports his claims.
...Except the Prometheus in Endgame isn't bigger. Or certainly does not seem bigger.

In addition, his statement is very much one of in potentia, to try and sound spiffy by using fake Latin. 'Would be', not 'is'. What he would toss out if the Director said 'We're throwing a Prommie and a Sovvie against each other.'. Even if we ignore Ordover's statement, this quote is extremely suspect to say 'Oh, there's a new Prommie and here it is', unless you can scale it and show it actually is bigger(Good luck, that shot was piss).
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Post by SirNitram »

Metrion Cascade wrote:
SirNitram wrote:
Metrion Cascade wrote:In what sense did it appear bigger? Is there a scaling shot?

And no, nothing said in a magazine is canon at all. If it's in a tech manual, sure (until it's contradicted by what you see on the screen).
Actually, John Ordover has specifically stated that only live-action Star Trek is canon. Provisions are given to two novels(Not tech manuals) and one episode of the Animated Series. Nothing else. Thus my skepticism.

I also found a picture of the Prometheus in Endgame. No sign of it being noticable larger, though it was crap for scaling.
Why John Ordover's word instead of, say, Roddenberry's (just for example)?
Mostly because Paramount owns the Star Trek franchise and thus we take their word on what 'canon' is. Same reason we take Lucasfilm's word on what's canon. If we go with Roddenbury, of course, there's no question at all: Neither the Sovereign or the Prometheus exist, so it's a no-score draw.
And a question about canon - if (as you stated a while back) Enterprise is the timeline created by Picard's actions in FC, why are most of the differences ones that Picard couldn't have caused (like the Xindi, the Suliban, Vulcans who can initiate mind melds becoming a minority)?
You see, B&B's Bozon Radiation infected the Earth during First Contact, and over time this radiation built up and released in an FTL Particle Of The Week Burst...
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Post by seanrobertson »

SirNitram wrote: ...Except the Prometheus in Endgame isn't bigger. Or certainly does not seem bigger.

In addition, his statement is very much one of in potentia, to try and sound spiffy by using fake Latin. 'Would be', not 'is'. What he would toss out if the Director said 'We're throwing a Prommie and a Sovvie against each other.'. Even if we ignore Ordover's statement, this quote is extremely suspect to say 'Oh, there's a new Prommie and here it is', unless you can scale it and show it actually is bigger(Good luck, that shot was piss).
Agreed.

Speaking of the "Endgame" ship's size, I made a couple of quick vidcaps from that scene. It seems only one of the links is working right now, though (?):

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-5/7 ... etheus.JPG

I haven't even tried to scale that yet. There are so many problems with the perspective it might be a waste of time :) (The second image I have might be a *bit* more helpful, but the image quality's so damn bad I wouldn't bet the farm on it.)


In any case, it's certainly not clear that this ship is bigger than the Prometheus herself.
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SirNitram
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Post by SirNitram »

Your picture has exceeded daily limit use, m'friend.

Still, a one fourth increase in volume is not a small increase!
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Post by RedImperator »

HRogge wrote:The sovi is still no submarine = Defiant, it's still a flagship... but do you think any warship should be as cramped as something like a Defiant ?
Real life naval warships are very cramped. Even battleships stack the enlisted crew three deep in their bunks, and only give the captain and the XO their own quarters. Every cubic meter of crew space is one less cubic meter that could be spent on equipment, fuel, ammunition, et cetera. It increases the mass and target profile of the ship without increasing combat capability. So a pure warship should jam the crew in as tightly as possible.
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Post by Chris OFarrell »

SirNitram wrote:
...Except the Prometheus in Endgame isn't bigger. Or certainly does not seem bigger.
And you base this off what exactly? There is little refrence points in Endgame to base the size of Promethesus off. There are ships around her, but as her distance is indeterminate from the camera POV, scaling bassed off that is near impossibe. If you would care to throw up some numbers to show they are the same ship class, then by all means. Otherwise the fact that it DOESN'T seperate when the Borg are comming meaning most of her firepower is locked up would appear to indicate this in fact is the non seperating version of the ship.

In addition, his statement is very much one of in potentia, to try and sound spiffy by using fake Latin. 'Would be', not 'is'. What he would toss out if the Director said 'We're throwing a Prommie and a Sovvie against each other.'. Even if we ignore Ordover's statement, this quote is extremely suspect to say 'Oh, there's a new Prommie and here it is', unless you can scale it and show it actually is bigger(Good luck, that shot was piss).
His statement is expliciate in saying EXACTLY where the future of the class will go and there is nothing to contradict this. The fact that there is a non seperating Promethesus in endgame is good evidence for it and there is no evidence against it. We can ignore Ordovers statement with great fortitude as he is not a paramount employeee and has zero and zilch authority to speak on their behalf. Rick IS a VERY senior Paramount/Star Trek employee, in fact one of his jobs WAS the offical representitive of the senior staff on the moderated Star Trek newsgroup, which can be taken as an explicate approval of his statements. Hell he DESIGNED the Promethesus as well as most ST ships.

And I wasn't aware that producers comments fell under 'offical evidence' rules. I wasn't aware they were episodes or technical manuals or novels which Ordover talked about. These are the guys in charge of the whole thing and I have no reason to disbelive them, unless their claims are explicitly contradicted onscreen.

Oh and I would also point to the Promethesus's in the Enterprise episode Atzri Prime. They were also non seperating version and from what I see they were firing quite a few more phasers then the seperating version had on its hull.
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Post by SirNitram »

Chris OFarrell wrote:
SirNitram wrote:
...Except the Prometheus in Endgame isn't bigger. Or certainly does not seem bigger.
And you base this off what exactly? There is little refrence points in Endgame to base the size of Promethesus off. There are ships around her, but as her distance is indeterminate from the camera POV, scaling bassed off that is near impossibe. If you would care to throw up some numbers to show they are the same ship class, then by all means. Otherwise the fact that it DOESN'T seperate when the Borg are comming meaning most of her firepower is locked up would appear to indicate this in fact is the non seperating version of the ship.
Or that my theory posted already in this thread is correct. Apparently, though, the logical principle of Parsimony is rejected in favor of assuming a brand new ship class.

In addition, his statement is very much one of in potentia, to try and sound spiffy by using fake Latin. 'Would be', not 'is'. What he would toss out if the Director said 'We're throwing a Prommie and a Sovvie against each other.'. Even if we ignore Ordover's statement, this quote is extremely suspect to say 'Oh, there's a new Prommie and here it is', unless you can scale it and show it actually is bigger(Good luck, that shot was piss).
His statement is expliciate in saying EXACTLY where the future of the class will go and there is nothing to contradict this. The fact that there is a non seperating Promethesus in endgame is good evidence for it and there is no evidence against it. We can ignore Ordovers statement with great fortitude as he is not a paramount employeee and has zero and zilch authority to speak on their behalf. Rick IS a VERY senior Paramount/Star Trek employee, in fact one of his jobs WAS the offical representitive of the senior staff on the moderated Star Trek newsgroup, which can be taken as an explicate approval of his statements. Hell he DESIGNED the Promethesus as well as most ST ships.
Oh wow. An argument not seen since Darkstar. Despite the fact that Ordover is very definately in a position to speak of Trek's canon policy.. He publishes their books.
And I wasn't aware that producers comments fell under 'offical evidence' rules. I wasn't aware they were episodes or technical manuals or novels which Ordover talked about. These are the guys in charge of the whole thing and I have no reason to disbelive them, unless their claims are explicitly contradicted onscreen.
No, Ordover did not say 'This is out and this is out and this is good'. He said 'Only live action Star Trek is canon'. You being more honest would be nice.
Oh and I would also point to the Promethesus's in the Enterprise episode Atzri Prime. They were also non seperating version and from what I see they were firing quite a few more phasers then the seperating version had on its hull.
If you would like to produce a screencap to prove it had more phasers firing or that it was bigger, please do. Until then, I will be merrily employing Parsimony instead of wishful thinking.
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Post by Alyeska »

SirNitram wrote:Or that my theory posted already in this thread is correct. Apparently, though, the logical principle of Parsimony is rejected in favor of assuming a brand new ship class.
Since thats what the ships creator said, I will take that as truth.
Oh wow. An argument not seen since Darkstar. Despite the fact that Ordover is very definately in a position to speak of Trek's canon policy.. He publishes their books.
A non paramount individual who doesn't even work directly with Star Trek is allowed to invalidate statements made by the most senior of Star Trek producers? Just because he publishes their books doesn't mean he has jackshit in authority over Trek. He merely has authority to print their books.
No, Ordover did not say 'This is out and this is out and this is good'. He said 'Only live action Star Trek is canon'. You being more honest would be nice.
Nice ad hominen. Chris is talking about the subject and using generalized but accurate statements and you nit pick the issue and attack his integrity. Brilliant.
If you would like to produce a screencap to prove it had more phasers firing or that it was bigger, please do. Until then, I will be merrily employing Parsimony instead of wishful thinking.
And while your blindly ignoring the statements of the creator of the ship...
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Post by SirNitram »

Alyeska wrote:
SirNitram wrote:Or that my theory posted already in this thread is correct. Apparently, though, the logical principle of Parsimony is rejected in favor of assuming a brand new ship class.
Since thats what the ships creator said, I will take that as truth.
Yea, that completely hypothetical ship variant.
Oh wow. An argument not seen since Darkstar. Despite the fact that Ordover is very definately in a position to speak of Trek's canon policy.. He publishes their books.
A non paramount individual who doesn't even work directly with Star Trek is allowed to invalidate statements made by the most senior of Star Trek producers? Just because he publishes their books doesn't mean he has jackshit in authority over Trek. He merely has authority to print their books.
Yea, the fact he's been explicitly informed of the canon policy just doesn't bug people at all. Suuure.
No, Ordover did not say 'This is out and this is out and this is good'. He said 'Only live action Star Trek is canon'. You being more honest would be nice.
Nice ad hominen. Chris is talking about the subject and using generalized but accurate statements and you nit pick the issue and attack his integrity. Brilliant.
Let's see. Chris says 'It's not novels or episodes which is what Ordover is talking about'. I say 'That's not at all what he says'. You claim I'm nitpicking. Ordover's comment completely matches this situation.
If you would like to produce a screencap to prove it had more phasers firing or that it was bigger, please do. Until then, I will be merrily employing Parsimony instead of wishful thinking.
And while your blindly ignoring the statements of the creator of the ship...
Yea, whose phrasing clearly indicates a potential, not an actual. But hey, if we're just going to pull shells over our heads..
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