How do we rectify Flint with Leonardo Da Vinci?

PST: discuss Star Trek without "versus" arguments.

Moderator: Vympel

Post Reply
User avatar
FaxModem1
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7281
Joined: 2002-10-30 06:40pm
Location: In a dark reflection of a better world

How do we rectify Flint with Leonardo Da Vinci?

Post by FaxModem1 » 2019-02-13 05:05pm

In "Requiem for Methuselah", Kirk, Spock, and McCoy discover Flint, an immortal human who has lived as King Solomon, Alexander the Great, Johannes Brahms, and Leonardo Da Vinci.

What's interesting is that Leonardo is later used as a holodeck program for Kathryn Janeway, as a sort of mentor figure, and she mentions that Kirk supposedly met him once, though she says the evidence is unclear. This version much more closely resembles the historical figure as compared to the immortal Flint.

Given that Flint is rather unlike a lot of these historical characters in things that wouldn't seem to change. For instance, Leonardo Da Vinci is rather famously left handed, while Flint is right, or that Flint's whole drive is to have a female companion, while Leonardo was a suspected homosexual who was acquited on sodomy charges and may have had a love affair with one of his apprentices, Salai. We also know where he's buried.

Does this mean that in the Trekverse, Leonardo was a right handed straight/bisexual man? Or, is Flint a liar? Or is there another explanation?
Image

User avatar
Solauren
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 8060
Joined: 2003-05-11 09:41pm

Re: How do we rectify Flint with Leonardo Da Vinci?

Post by Solauren » 2019-02-13 05:30pm

There is evidence in that episode that Flint was no longer immortal, no longer being on Earth.

If that's the case, it's possible he was starting to develop mental health problems related to his advanced age.

It's also possible he KNEW these historic figures (aka a Highlander immortal), but having lived so long, identifies and people he knew are starting to "blurr" together.
\

User avatar
Imperial528
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1786
Joined: 2010-05-03 06:19pm
Location: New England

Re: How do we rectify Flint with Leonardo Da Vinci?

Post by Imperial528 » 2019-02-13 05:50pm

Given how long he lived, he may have simple become so good at behaving like an entirely different person that one could say there no longer was a base personality, merely whichever personality he had created and lived as at the time, Flint being the one observed in TOS.

I know that sounds psychologically dubious, but the man did have four thousand years to get to that level of mental flexibility before the time of da Vinci occurred.

User avatar
Batman
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 15432
Joined: 2002-07-09 04:51am
Location: 'Very' mildly hopeful now DC recognized taking Clark's red trunks away was a bad idea
Contact:

Re: How do we rectify Flint with Leonardo Da Vinci?

Post by Batman » 2019-02-13 06:34pm

Also he might simply be ambidextrous. Not everybody is left/right handed.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'

bilateralrope
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4085
Joined: 2005-06-25 06:50pm
Location: New Zealand

Re: How do we rectify Flint with Leonardo Da Vinci?

Post by bilateralrope » 2019-02-13 10:15pm

Since I don't remember the episode in question I have to ask: What evidence are we given for Flint being all those historical figures ?

User avatar
B5B7
Jedi Knight
Posts: 739
Joined: 2005-10-22 02:02am
Location: Perth Western Australia
Contact:

Re: How do we rectify Flint with Leonardo Da Vinci?

Post by B5B7 » 2019-02-13 10:22pm

As I recall there were unknown paintings on the wall and sheets of music that Spock identified as being by Leonardo and Brahms respectively.
As for the other historical figures there was no evidence given and it would be difficult to provide such evidence.
TVWP: "Janeway says archly, "Sometimes it's the female of the species that initiates mating." Is the female of the species trying to initiate mating now? Janeway accepts Paris's apology and tells him she's putting him in for a commendation. The salamander sex was that good."
"Not bad - for a human"-Bishop to Ripley
GALACTIC DOMINATION Empire Board Game visit link below:
GALACTIC DOMINATION

bilateralrope
Sith Marauder
Posts: 4085
Joined: 2005-06-25 06:50pm
Location: New Zealand

Re: How do we rectify Flint with Leonardo Da Vinci?

Post by bilateralrope » 2019-02-13 10:30pm

There are numerous ways he could have acquired those over his long lifespan without being those historical figures. So we only have his word that he was the people he claimed to have been.

Add in the inconsistencies FaxModem1 mentions and the simplest way to reconcile everything is to say that he wasn't telling the truth.

User avatar
Elheru Aran
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 12658
Joined: 2004-03-04 01:15am
Location: Georgia

Re: How do we rectify Flint with Leonardo Da Vinci?

Post by Elheru Aran » 2019-02-14 02:35pm

It's not canon, but the Greg Cox books on Khan Noonein Singh and the Eugenics Wars referenced Flint, as did the Immortal Coil novel about Data (don't recall who wrote that one, maybe Cox again?). Basically they match him up with several -other- people in Trek history, and suggest that he's ambidextrous and well used to changing his identity as needed. Immortal Coil is particularly interesting as it went over the history of AI in Trek, from the Exo III android Ruk in TOS to the Wesley Crusher nanites and the M5 computer, among others-- seems Flint is enamored of AI and preserved much of this technology for his own reasons.

Not canon, as I said, but still interesting...
It's a strange world. Let's keep it that way.

User avatar
Eternal_Freedom
Castellan
Posts: 9652
Joined: 2010-03-09 02:16pm
Location: Bound in a nutshell

Re: How do we rectify Flint with Leonardo Da Vinci?

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2019-02-14 02:42pm

He appears/is mentioned in the non-canon Federation novel as well, where he appears as Micah Brack, who funds Zefram Cochrane's initial warp experiments and then funds a dozen or more extrasolar colonies so humanity isn't snuffed out by WWIII.

Presumably he's old enough to be a very good actor.
Baltar: "I don't want to miss a moment of the last Battlestar's destruction!"
Centurion: "Sir, I really think you should look at the other Battlestar."
Baltar: "What are you babbling about other...it's impossible!"
Centurion: "No. It is a Battlestar."

Corrax Entry 7:17: So you walk eternally through the shadow realms, standing against evil where all others falter. May your thirst for retribution never quench, may the blood on your sword never dry, and may we never need you again.

User avatar
FaxModem1
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 7281
Joined: 2002-10-30 06:40pm
Location: In a dark reflection of a better world

Re: How do we rectify Flint with Leonardo Da Vinci?

Post by FaxModem1 » 2019-02-26 08:39pm

Eternal_Freedom wrote:
2019-02-14 02:42pm
He appears/is mentioned in the non-canon Federation novel as well, where he appears as Micah Brack, who funds Zefram Cochrane's initial warp experiments and then funds a dozen or more extrasolar colonies so humanity isn't snuffed out by WWIII.

Presumably he's old enough to be a very good actor.
Enough of a good actor to face prison on sodomy charges?
Image

User avatar
Elheru Aran
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 12658
Joined: 2004-03-04 01:15am
Location: Georgia

Re: How do we rectify Flint with Leonardo Da Vinci?

Post by Elheru Aran » 2019-02-27 01:00pm

FaxModem1 wrote:
2019-02-26 08:39pm
Eternal_Freedom wrote:
2019-02-14 02:42pm
He appears/is mentioned in the non-canon Federation novel as well, where he appears as Micah Brack, who funds Zefram Cochrane's initial warp experiments and then funds a dozen or more extrasolar colonies so humanity isn't snuffed out by WWIII.

Presumably he's old enough to be a very good actor.
Enough of a good actor to face prison on sodomy charges?
The sodomy charges IIRC have always been somewhat vague. It could well be they were trumped up. Alternatively, he could just be bisexual, or decided to experiment in the occasional lifespan. Being immortal is something of a game-changer.
It's a strange world. Let's keep it that way.

User avatar
Solauren
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 8060
Joined: 2003-05-11 09:41pm

Re: How do we rectify Flint with Leonardo Da Vinci?

Post by Solauren » 2019-02-27 03:30pm

B5B7 wrote:
2019-02-13 10:22pm
As I recall there were unknown paintings on the wall and sheets of music that Spock identified as being by Leonardo and Brahms respectively.
As for the other historical figures there was no evidence given and it would be difficult to provide such evidence.
I will remind you that Art Forgery is not only possible, but a lucrative business.
\

User avatar
Bob the Gunslinger
Has not forgotten the face of his father
Posts: 4742
Joined: 2004-01-08 06:21pm
Location: Somewhere out west

Re: How do we rectify Flint with Leonardo Da Vinci?

Post by Bob the Gunslinger » 2019-05-18 06:34pm

Elheru Aran wrote:
2019-02-14 02:35pm
It's not canon, but the Greg Cox books on Khan Noonein Singh and the Eugenics Wars referenced Flint, as did the Immortal Coil novel about Data (don't recall who wrote that one, maybe Cox again?). Basically they match him up with several -other- people in Trek history, and suggest that he's ambidextrous and well used to changing his identity as needed. Immortal Coil is particularly interesting as it went over the history of AI in Trek, from the Exo III android Ruk in TOS to the Wesley Crusher nanites and the M5 computer, among others-- seems Flint is enamored of AI and preserved much of this technology for his own reasons.

Not canon, as I said, but still interesting...
To further develop on this, the novel Watching the Clock portrays the existence of Khan Noonien Singh and all augments as a result of temporal shenanigans by parties involved in the temporal Cold War. The effect in this novel of time travel in Trek, as I understand it, is that time travel can create alternate timelines that diverge at the past moment of interpherence and often reconverge at the future time of departure in messy and unpredictable ways. Alternate timelines can also become completely divergent under certain circumstances, but typically time travel is dangerous because it is more likely to mess with your own timeline.

So Flint may be the Leonardo DaVinci in the Trek timeline, which may be our future, but he is not the Leonardo DaVinci of our past. I assume he is the LDV of Khan's past, though.
"Gunslinger indeed. Quick draw, Bob. Quick draw." --Count Chocula

"Unquestionably, Dr. Who is MUCH lighter in tone than WH40K. But then, I could argue the entirety of WWII was much lighter in tone than WH40K." --Broomstick

"This is ridiculous. I look like the Games Workshop version of a Jedi Knight." --Harry Dresden, Changes

"Like...are we canonical?" --Aaron Dembski-Bowden to Dan Abnett

Post Reply