Star Trek: Discovery Season 2 Review Thread *spoilers*

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Re: Star Trek: Discovery Season 2 Review Thread *spoilers*

Post by FaxModem1 » 2019-04-19 05:25pm

Okay, so some plotholes have been closed.

A much better season finale than season 1. I actually cared about the crew of Discovery as compared to last year. Seeing Spock, Pike, and Number One in their iconic roles was nice, as was seeing Spock actually looking like the iconic Spock.

I also want to note that I rather enjoyed that they dedicated an entire scene to replicate the hallway fight scene from inception. It wasn't necessary, but getting Michelle Yeoh to fight in such a space was really cool.

The spore drive, it's chief researcher, and the ship containing it, are all gone. That makes two ships destroyed under bad circumstances in regards to this experimental drive, along with the spores in the spore dimension wanting to eat you if you stay too long in their world, so I see why Starfleet didn't really pursue, and kept it secret. At least with slipstream or transwarp, you can work out the kinks. With spore drive, you might mysteriously explode or get sucked into an alternate dimension or who knows what?

Even if they don't make a season 3, this would be a satisfying way to end the show.
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Re: Star Trek: Discovery Season 2 Review Thread *spoilers*

Post by AniThyng » 2019-04-19 09:55pm

Thinking about it though it's kinda hilarious that really all discovery needs to do to come back in time is slingshot around a sun...
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Re: Star Trek: Discovery Season 2 Review Thread *spoilers*

Post by Mange » 2019-04-20 01:57am

FaxModem1 wrote:
2019-04-19 05:25pm
Even if they don't make a season 3, this would be a satisfying way to end the show.
It was announced on StarTrek.com on February 27 that the show has been renewed for season 3. Kurtzman has also revealed a new setting for the third season.

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Re: Star Trek: Discovery Season 2 Review Thread *spoilers*

Post by Vendetta » 2019-04-20 05:42am

I think they could have ditched the bit with Cornwell. She's never been enough of a character that killing her off made me care, and it just wasted some time they could have used on other characters like Culber and Stamets to make their reunion less rushed.

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Re: Star Trek: Discovery Season 2 Review Thread *spoilers*

Post by tezunegari » 2019-04-20 07:23am

The CGI group has no idea about internal structures of ships... that turbolift impacting the hallway above Stamets was painfull to watch.

The battle was not well thought out and felt more like Style over substance.
Star Trek has never had a focus on fighter on fighter action like this battle suggests, it has always been capital ship vs capital ship.
The whole battle felt more like Battlestar Galactica.

(even if only the bigger ships, the four-nacelles and Miranda-style ones, were combat focused instead of spy ships those would have been steep odds)

Though we finally see real D7 in action and they were glorious! For all 10 seconds we saw them.
Just like Enterprise going full phaser fire... they even used the ball turrets correctly.

But the episode really doesn't answer any questions.
The 7 bursts from the first episode that appeared simulateously... how and why did they happen?
Burnham didn't create them and they are not a side-effect of the Red Angel suit.
The red bursts are a deliberate signal.

And why did Control cease to function when Leland was killed?
Have the writers never heard of distributed computing? Or redundancies?
Every single S31 ship and drone should have to be destroyed to stop Control.
They could easily have written the Klingons as the ones to destroy the remnants of S31 ships that Enterprise and Discovery didn't destroy already.

And why was Control so stupid as to not infect the crew of the other ships?
It had enough opportunity to convert Gant... one single person, apparently even after he died.
Or why not focus fire on the Enterprise.
Control had no interest in having Enterprise survive, and it was actively hindering the attempt at getting the Sphere Data.
Just have 5 of the smaller spy ships go full Jem'hadar on the Enterprise with ramming attacks. That still leaves the big ships and 20 smaller ones.

Did they even explain how Leland got up from the ground where he landed after Control did that Eye-stabby-thingy and into that chair?


The best episodes of S2 were those that used the characters as an ensemble and reduced Burnham to just another part of the story.
The worst are those that glorify Burnham into sole main character.

The alignment with TOS is kinda wonky as well, Discovery and the Sphere Data being classified doesn't mean that Burnhams life or public history is now classified as well, or the Fed-Klingon War.
It doesn't explain why Burnhams mutiny was deleted from the history books - at least I don't see a logical reason behind it.
She was pardoned for it and got reinstated but it still happened.
And an attempted mutiny that fails is still a mutiny, so the argument that the records only hold successful mutinies, like Memory Alpha suggests, is rather thin.

And does that include Control? Or is the fact that an AI went rogue within Starfleet Intelligence internally still known?
That would make Daystroms M5 project controversial at best in these circles.

At least the mess hall scene with the bridge crew and Linus now makes sense... autantonyms: Transparency for an intelligence agency.
Either Starfleet Intelligence gets more oversight under that name... or more of their actions fall victim to an oversight as Section 31 becomes a ghost agency.
Nice self-reference there.
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Re: Star Trek: Discovery Season 2 Review Thread *spoilers*

Post by Mange » 2019-04-20 07:31am

tezunegari wrote:
2019-04-20 07:23am
The CGI group has no idea about internal structures of ships... that turbolift impacting the hallway above Stamets was painfull to watch.

The battle was not well thought out and felt more like Style over substance.
Star Trek has never had a focus on fighter on fighter action like this battle suggests, it has always been capital ship vs capital ship.
The whole battle felt more like Battlestar Galactica.

(even if only the bigger ships, the four-nacelles and Miranda-style ones, were combat focused instead of spy ships those would have been steep odds)

Though we finally see real D7 in action and they were glorious! For all 10 seconds we saw them.
Just like Enterprise going full phaser fire... they even used the ball turrets correctly.

But the episode really doesn't answer any questions.
The 7 bursts from the first episode that appeared simulateously... how and why did they happen?
Burnham didn't create them and they are not a side-effect of the Red Angel suit.
The red bursts are a deliberate signal.

And why did Control cease to function when Leland was killed?
Have the writers never heard of distributed computing? Or redundancies?
Every single S31 ship and drone should have to be destroyed to stop Control.
They could easily have written the Klingons as the ones to destroy the remnants of S31 ships that Enterprise and Discovery didn't destroy already.

And why was Control so stupid as to not infect the crew of the other ships?
It had enough opportunity to convert Gant... one single person, apparently even after he died.
Or why not focus fire on the Enterprise.
Control had no interest in having Enterprise survive, and it was actively hindering the attempt at getting the Sphere Data.
Just have 5 of the smaller spy ships go full Jem'hadar on the Enterprise with ramming attacks. That still leaves the big ships and 20 smaller ones.

Did they even explain how Leland got up from the ground where he landed after Control did that Eye-stabby-thingy and into that chair?


The best episodes of S2 were those that used the characters as an ensemble and reduced Burnham to just another part of the story.
The worst are those that glorify Burnham into sole main character.

The alignment with TOS is kinda wonky as well, Discovery and the Sphere Data being classified doesn't mean that Burnhams life or public history is now classified as well, or the Fed-Klingon War.
It doesn't explain why Burnhams mutiny was deleted from the history books - at least I don't see a logical reason behind it.
She was pardoned for it and got reinstated but it still happened.
And an attempted mutiny that fails is still a mutiny, so the argument that the records only hold successful mutinies, like Memory Alpha suggests, is rather thin.

And does that include Control? Or is the fact that an AI went rogue within Starfleet Intelligence internally still known?
That would make Daystroms M5 project controversial at best in these circles.

At least the mess hall scene with the bridge crew and Linus now makes sense... autantonyms: Transparency for an intelligence agency.
Either Starfleet Intelligence gets more oversight under that name... or more of their actions fall victim to an oversight as Section 31 becomes a ghost agency.
Nice self-reference there.
Good points, but I don't agree about the Enterprise turrets. Enterprise could only fire from the ventral side of the saucer, not the dorsal (not that we've ever seen anyway).

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Re: Star Trek: Discovery Season 2 Review Thread *spoilers*

Post by tezunegari » 2019-04-20 08:24am

Mange wrote:
2019-04-20 07:31am
Good points, but I don't agree about the Enterprise turrets. Enterprise could only fire from the ventral side of the saucer, not the dorsal (not that we've ever seen anyway).
I always thought that was more a limitation of budget and technology of the time that the TOS Enterprise had only one reused scene of firing from the ring section.
That's actually a visual upgrade that I like, they did add the ball turrets in the TMP refit before.
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"Bring your cannons, I have my armor."
"Bring your mighty... I am my own champion."
Cue Unit-01 ramming half the Lance of Longinus down Adam's head and a bemused Gendo, "Wrong end, son."
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Re: Star Trek: Discovery Season 2 Review Thread *spoilers*

Post by Mange » 2019-04-20 12:37pm

tezunegari wrote:
2019-04-20 08:24am
Mange wrote:
2019-04-20 07:31am
Good points, but I don't agree about the Enterprise turrets. Enterprise could only fire from the ventral side of the saucer, not the dorsal (not that we've ever seen anyway).
I always thought that was more a limitation of budget and technology of the time that the TOS Enterprise had only one reused scene of firing from the ring section.
That's actually a visual upgrade that I like, they did add the ball turrets in the TMP refit before.
Well, in the remastered version of "The Doomsday Machine", dorsal shots were indeed seen, in Matt Jefferies design, the Enterprise phaser banks were located on the ventral side of the saucer and in dialogue in "The Arena", the phasers were said to be located forward, port, starboard and midship. Of course, the refitted Enterprise had ball turrets on its dorsal side (forward of its name).

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Re: Star Trek: Discovery Season 2 Review Thread *spoilers*

Post by FireNexus » 2019-04-20 01:56pm

AniThyng wrote:
2019-04-19 09:55pm
Thinking about it though it's kinda hilarious that really all discovery needs to do to come back in time is slingshot around a sun...
They’re traveling to a time period when it’s established that Starfleet has access to extremely convenient time travel already. Odds are that it would be a temporal prime directive issue if they were to attempt a return, as the time period would have been established with Discovery gone.

I’m still salty they didn’t tie in Bajor yet. But with them going to the far future, hopefully we’ll get some post-DS9 details about Cardassia or Bajor. Maybe Avery Brooks will guest!
I had a Bill Maher quote here. But fuck him for his white privelegy "joke".

All the rest? Too long.

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Re: Star Trek: Discovery Season 2 Review Thread *spoilers*

Post by PREDATOR490 » 2019-04-20 08:03pm

As far as endings go, this season is a colossal disgrace in the contrivances being pulled to bring it to a conclusion. It really feels like someone came up with this time travel arc as a drama component without any logical consistency behind it... oh wait.
As a result, stuff does not make sense or match up even internally consistently.

Never mind the egregious attempt at closing things up in a little bow at the end by trying to justify this series in the ST continuity. Everyone was told to never mention Discovery again ... that will surely justify why magic mushrooms engines or all these epic events were never mentioned at all...
I would have had more respect if they had used the time travel aspect to erase Discovery from the timeline than the whole - It always happened but noone talked about it angle.

Effects Wise

The finale episode was a complete clusterfuck which encapsulates the issue with form being chosen over substance. They filled the screen with epic amount of shit to the point that it becomes meaningless noise. Waves of unidentifiable drone blobs and pretty lights going all over the place with no real sense of scale or relevance.
You bring 30 ships vs 2 and then fill the screen with fighter blobs like this is Star Wars / Battlestar Galactica. Would it really have been that bad to just have the base ships going at each other ?

You literally had the big E on screen, had the budget to do her justice and were going for a battle that could have easily just been glory shots of the big E and Discovery fighting side by side. Instead, they fill and water the thing down by bathing it in fighter based action which is another example of being completely incongruous with the rest of ST continuity.

Regardless, the show has fucked around in TOS continuity and is going 930 years into the future... which puts it in the 32nd Century ?

I have been woefully unimpressed with the story and direction this series is going in and the finale tie up only confirmed this. Going into the 32nd Century where they can make a new continuity is certainly appealing but if the story quality remains like it has, I can only expect a horrific egregious attempt to loot ST for any lore and bulldoze it into whatever narrative Discovery goes in.

I suppose being post Time Cold War is going to be a justification for Evil Terran Queen to get back to run her own Section 31 spin off while Discovery zips around the future. Alternatively, Section 31 is set in the 32nd Century as well... running two series concurrently... would be ambitious for Star Trek but could be interesting IF done competently.
One wonders if they will actually dare follow through on TNG - DS9 - VOY - ENT elements.

Enterprise J was around the 26th Century mark so... the big E should be a fair few letters down the alphabet. Will they dare try to invent a new big E ?
Will the Klingon BOP still be in service ?

By the time of the 32nd Century, Starfleet should be done with the Milky Way and be moving on to other galaxies. I guess this could see a final confirmation of the fate of the Romulans and Borg.
However, I can equally see Discovery pulling a massive side step by leaving the Milky Way and attempting to avoid as much of the lore as possible.

Worst Case: Discovery decides it wants to become a TARDIS. Jumping back and forward through time as well as all over the galaxy so they can mess with more ST continuity and lore.

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Re: Star Trek: Discovery Season 2 Review Thread *spoilers*

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2019-04-21 07:18am

I agree on the style over substance of the effects - the bit with the torpedo in the Big E's hull is particularly absurd - it's enough to blow a good chunk out of the saucer section but Pike can survive unscathed if they close a blast door with a fucking window?
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Re: Star Trek: Discovery Season 2 Review Thread *spoilers*

Post by Vendetta » 2019-04-21 07:36am

Eternal_Freedom wrote:
2019-04-21 07:18am
I agree on the style over substance of the effects - the bit with the torpedo in the Big E's hull is particularly absurd - it's enough to blow a good chunk out of the saucer section but Pike can survive unscathed if they close a blast door with a fucking window?
I have a suspicion that they originally intended that to be a scene where he got all his injuries and then swerved at the last minute in favour of using him more in upcoming shows.

The whole bit should have been cut, it was a busy episode already and it would have given other parts of it more room.

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Re: Star Trek: Discovery Season 2 Review Thread *spoilers*

Post by Eternal_Freedom » 2019-04-21 08:26am

Indeed. As for Admiral Cornwell...there were probably at least a dozen other ways you could have had her die without it feeling quite so forced as this. But all the damn fighters buzzing around, urgh. I liked BSG, but it worked for that show, not Star Trek. I get that they know they're outnumbered 30:2 and are trying to even the odds, but how on Earth do two ships have that many pods and shuttles? There shouldn't be enough room! It's like the issue with all the shuttles Voyager has over seven seasons crammed down into one episode.

I know those things are minor compared to some of the other problems, but they bug me. This should have been Enterprise and Discovery being the badass hero-ships they're meant to be. Instead they just sat there doing sod all. Hell, having recently watched both for comparison, "Balance of Terror" had more dramatic and tense combat scenes and that was two ships sneaking around on each other!
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Re: Star Trek: Discovery Season 2 Review Thread *spoilers*

Post by AniThyng » 2019-04-21 08:54am

Vendetta wrote:
2019-04-21 07:36am
Eternal_Freedom wrote:
2019-04-21 07:18am
I agree on the style over substance of the effects - the bit with the torpedo in the Big E's hull is particularly absurd - it's enough to blow a good chunk out of the saucer section but Pike can survive unscathed if they close a blast door with a fucking window?
I have a suspicion that they originally intended that to be a scene where he got all his injuries and then swerved at the last minute in favour of using him more in upcoming shows.

The whole bit should have been cut, it was a busy episode already and it would have given other parts of it more room.
That would have really took a crap on canon though, not just of the menagerie but of the scene where pike took the time crystal...
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Re: Star Trek: Discovery Season 2 Review Thread *spoilers*

Post by Vendetta » 2019-04-21 09:44am

AniThyng wrote:
2019-04-21 08:54am
Vendetta wrote:
2019-04-21 07:36am
Eternal_Freedom wrote:
2019-04-21 07:18am
I agree on the style over substance of the effects - the bit with the torpedo in the Big E's hull is particularly absurd - it's enough to blow a good chunk out of the saucer section but Pike can survive unscathed if they close a blast door with a fucking window?
I have a suspicion that they originally intended that to be a scene where he got all his injuries and then swerved at the last minute in favour of using him more in upcoming shows.

The whole bit should have been cut, it was a busy episode already and it would have given other parts of it more room.
That would have really took a crap on canon though, not just of the menagerie but of the scene where pike took the time crystal...
For all the attention it gets from nerds on the Internet, Star Trek has never been particularly interested in the idea of "canon" as a fixed and invariable history of events.
Indeed. As for Admiral Cornwell...there were probably at least a dozen other ways you could have had her die without it feeling quite so forced as this.
Also she's too peripheral and vague a character to bother killing. There's no emotional weight to it because she's just kind of been a convenient hatstand to hang bits of plot on.

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Re: Star Trek: Discovery Season 2 Review Thread *spoilers*

Post by AniThyng » 2019-04-21 10:54am

Vendetta wrote:
2019-04-21 09:44am


For all the attention it gets from nerds on the Internet, Star Trek has never been particularly interested in the idea of "canon" as a fixed and invariable history of events.
That's true, but they really put in the effort for the episode where they went back to Talos IV and I think keeping the continuity on this really was the least they could do, and it worked well enough.


That aside, I absolutely love the updated look of the Disco Enterprise and her bridge as well as the uniforms, would like to see more of them in shorts/side stories etc.
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Re: Star Trek: Discovery Season 2 Review Thread *spoilers*

Post by NecronLord » 2019-04-21 02:13pm


I really want a toy of those.

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Re: Star Trek: Discovery Season 2 Review Thread *spoilers*

Post by bilateralrope » 2019-04-23 07:48am

At least jumping Discovery forwards into the future means they won't have any new continuity problems if we get a season 3.
tezunegari wrote:
2019-04-20 07:23am
The battle was not well thought out and felt more like Style over substance.
Complete with evasive maneuver: Stay perfectly still.

Or here's a hole in the hull to suck some crew members out. Luckily there was a door that could close over the hole.

We want characters standing on a piece of wreckage. No, we don't need to show the ship it came from exploding first.
The best episodes of S2 were those that used the characters as an ensemble and reduced Burnham to just another part of the story.
The worst are those that glorify Burnham into sole main character.
I'd say that the best episodes of S2 are the ones that could have been written without linking them to the seasons arc. For example, encountering the sphere or Kelpien homeworld. The worst ones are the ones that tie heavily into the arc.
PREDATOR490 wrote:
2019-04-20 08:03pm
By the time of the 32nd Century, Starfleet should be done with the Milky Way and be moving on to other galaxies. I guess this could see a final confirmation of the fate of the Romulans and Borg.
I've heard spoilers that the Picard series is going to give us confirmation on the Romulans.

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Re: Star Trek: Discovery Season 2 Review Thread *spoilers*

Post by Themightytom » 2019-05-06 05:46pm

Lonestar wrote:
2019-04-19 04:21pm
As an aside, we now have a lower limit for the size of Starfleet, with 7,000 vessels.
Yeah but what good is it if the Enterprise is the only ship in range.

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Re: Star Trek: Discovery Season 2 Review Thread *spoilers*

Post by Lonestar » 2019-05-07 02:48pm

It's more likely that there are more ships in range, but they are Oberths and what have you that are useless for anything other than supporting long term planetary missions.
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Re: Star Trek: Discovery Season 2 Review Thread *spoilers*

Post by Prometheus Unbound » 2019-05-16 02:06am

tezunegari wrote:
2019-04-20 07:23am
The CGI group has no idea about internal structures of ships... that turbolift impacting the hallway above Stamets was painfull to watch.
I liked it - it explained some of the random explosions we get around the ship.
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