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Re: Any good sources on Vulcan philosophy?

Posted: 2018-08-24 06:52pm
by FaxModem1
Gandalf wrote:
2018-08-24 06:29pm
Elheru Aran wrote:
2018-08-24 05:49pm
It's possible, I suppose, that there was some form of monasticism or other religious/philosophical tradition around before Surak, and Surak's role was more in bringing that tradition to the forefront of Vulcan culture, popularizing it and spreading it. However without the Kir'Shara (been doing a bit of reading up on ENT) it seems the adherence to their logical philosophy wasn't quite as sincere as Surak would have wanted, at least among elements of society and secular leadership. Essentially the Enterprise's crew's rediscovery of the Kir'Shara ignites a Vulcan version of the Reformation. Enterprise is, what? hundred years or so? before TOS... I suppose perhaps Spock was feeling a bit Vulcan-Calvinist by the time of the movies.
I took it to be Vulcan second coming, combined with the finding of the first biblical writings. After this, the society goes from a secular military government to something of a theocracy, or at least under a cult of personality. It's the Vulcan Revolution.
Can you have a cult of personality for someone who has been dead for over 2000 years but is still accessible via telepathy around certain artifacts?

Re: Any good sources on Vulcan philosophy?

Posted: 2018-08-24 07:45pm
by Gandalf
FaxModem1 wrote:
2018-08-24 06:52pm
Can you have a cult of personality for someone who has been dead for over 2000 years but is still accessible via telepathy around certain artifacts?
I don't see why not. I imagine that having such a figure locked in a rock makes a cult pretty easy to perpetuate. The logic church can appeal to Surak's authority because they have him in a room somewhere, and they don't have to worry about him going out and doing something inconvenient.

Re: Any good sources on Vulcan philosophy?

Posted: 2018-08-25 01:54am
by FaxModem1
I guess the key question is if it's a society following the works of Surak, is following Surak a religion, or a philosophy? If it's a religion, it's a sort of theocracy. If it's not, what kind of government would it be, then?

Re: Any good sources on Vulcan philosophy?

Posted: 2018-08-25 03:28am
by Broomstick
Depends - how do you define "religion" and "philosophy"?

Most especially, how do you define "religion"? Is it beliefs or is it rituals? We speak of following something "religiously" even if it's not something we actually consider religion.

It could be that a lot of the ritual trappings seen in Vulcan society are what's left of their religions after everyone became atheist, but still found use for the rituals.

Or they're all a bunch of hypocrites. :P

For all their veneration of logic, it's pretty clear that Vulcans are NOT emotionless. Once in awhile, one will even admit it.

Re: Any good sources on Vulcan philosophy?

Posted: 2018-08-25 09:13am
by Gandalf
FaxModem1 wrote:
2018-08-25 01:54am
I guess the key question is if it's a society following the works of Surak, is following Surak a religion, or a philosophy? If it's a religion, it's a sort of theocracy. If it's not, what kind of government would it be, then?
I went away and did some thinking about this. The dialogue around Surak's teachings in the relevant season four arc on Enterprise would imply that it's closer to a religion that a philosophy. While Surak himself may have been a philosopher, Surakism functions like a religion. Much like the Reformation period to which Elheru alluded, the High Command and the Syrannites considered each other to be following poor interpretations of Surak's teachings, essentially casting themselves as holders of the "true" path of Surak.

Here's some fun dialogue from The Forge:
"This site is called Gateway, where Surak supposedly began his journey into the Forge."
"You keep saying supposedly. You don't believe Surak did the things they said he did?"
"He brought logic to Vulcan, in an age we call the Time of Awakening, but his writings from that period no longer exist."
"There must be some record of it."
"Over the centuries, his followers made copies of his teachings."
"Let me guess. With the originals lost, whatever's left is open to interpretation."
"You find this amusing?"
"I find it familiar. We should get moving."

Re: Any good sources on Vulcan philosophy?

Posted: 2018-08-25 09:54am
by NecronLord
For what it's worth the mutant Romulan strain called Remans definately have powerful telepaths. I really don't think here's canon evidence to think that Romulans don't have telepathy to some degree.

Re: Any good sources on Vulcan philosophy?

Posted: 2018-08-26 01:57am
by Gandalf
The Remans were an offshoot of Romulans? When did that happen?

Re: Any good sources on Vulcan philosophy?

Posted: 2018-09-07 11:45am
by FaxModem1
Gandalf wrote:
2018-08-26 01:57am
The Remans were an offshoot of Romulans? When did that happen?
I think since Nemesis. They're the early Romulans/Vulcans who settled on Remus and evolved overtime to a constant night environment. And somehow over time became the slaves of the Romulans on Romulus.