Any good sources on Vulcan philosophy?

PST: discuss Star Trek without "versus" arguments.

Moderator: Vympel

User avatar
FaxModem1
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 6759
Joined: 2002-10-30 06:40pm
Location: In a dark reflection of a better world

Re: Any good sources on Vulcan philosophy?

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-08-24 06:52pm

Gandalf wrote:
2018-08-24 06:29pm
Elheru Aran wrote:
2018-08-24 05:49pm
It's possible, I suppose, that there was some form of monasticism or other religious/philosophical tradition around before Surak, and Surak's role was more in bringing that tradition to the forefront of Vulcan culture, popularizing it and spreading it. However without the Kir'Shara (been doing a bit of reading up on ENT) it seems the adherence to their logical philosophy wasn't quite as sincere as Surak would have wanted, at least among elements of society and secular leadership. Essentially the Enterprise's crew's rediscovery of the Kir'Shara ignites a Vulcan version of the Reformation. Enterprise is, what? hundred years or so? before TOS... I suppose perhaps Spock was feeling a bit Vulcan-Calvinist by the time of the movies.
I took it to be Vulcan second coming, combined with the finding of the first biblical writings. After this, the society goes from a secular military government to something of a theocracy, or at least under a cult of personality. It's the Vulcan Revolution.
Can you have a cult of personality for someone who has been dead for over 2000 years but is still accessible via telepathy around certain artifacts?
Image

User avatar
Gandalf
SD.net White Wizard
Posts: 14564
Joined: 2002-09-16 11:13pm
Location: A video store in Sydney, Australia

Re: Any good sources on Vulcan philosophy?

Post by Gandalf » 2018-08-24 07:45pm

FaxModem1 wrote:
2018-08-24 06:52pm
Can you have a cult of personality for someone who has been dead for over 2000 years but is still accessible via telepathy around certain artifacts?
I don't see why not. I imagine that having such a figure locked in a rock makes a cult pretty easy to perpetuate. The logic church can appeal to Surak's authority because they have him in a room somewhere, and they don't have to worry about him going out and doing something inconvenient.
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist

"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin

User avatar
FaxModem1
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 6759
Joined: 2002-10-30 06:40pm
Location: In a dark reflection of a better world

Re: Any good sources on Vulcan philosophy?

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-08-25 01:54am

I guess the key question is if it's a society following the works of Surak, is following Surak a religion, or a philosophy? If it's a religion, it's a sort of theocracy. If it's not, what kind of government would it be, then?
Image

User avatar
Broomstick
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 25844
Joined: 2004-01-02 07:04pm
Location: Industrial armpit of the US Midwest
Contact:

Re: Any good sources on Vulcan philosophy?

Post by Broomstick » 2018-08-25 03:28am

Depends - how do you define "religion" and "philosophy"?

Most especially, how do you define "religion"? Is it beliefs or is it rituals? We speak of following something "religiously" even if it's not something we actually consider religion.

It could be that a lot of the ritual trappings seen in Vulcan society are what's left of their religions after everyone became atheist, but still found use for the rituals.

Or they're all a bunch of hypocrites. :P

For all their veneration of logic, it's pretty clear that Vulcans are NOT emotionless. Once in awhile, one will even admit it.
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. Leonard Nimoy.

Now I did a job. I got nothing but trouble since I did it, not to mention more than a few unkind words as regard to my character so let me make this abundantly clear. I do the job. And then I get paid.- Malcolm Reynolds, Captain of Serenity, which sums up my feelings regarding the lawsuit discussed here.

If a free society cannot help the many who are poor, it cannot save the few who are rich. - John F. Kennedy

Sam Vimes Theory of Economic Injustice

User avatar
Gandalf
SD.net White Wizard
Posts: 14564
Joined: 2002-09-16 11:13pm
Location: A video store in Sydney, Australia

Re: Any good sources on Vulcan philosophy?

Post by Gandalf » 2018-08-25 09:13am

FaxModem1 wrote:
2018-08-25 01:54am
I guess the key question is if it's a society following the works of Surak, is following Surak a religion, or a philosophy? If it's a religion, it's a sort of theocracy. If it's not, what kind of government would it be, then?
I went away and did some thinking about this. The dialogue around Surak's teachings in the relevant season four arc on Enterprise would imply that it's closer to a religion that a philosophy. While Surak himself may have been a philosopher, Surakism functions like a religion. Much like the Reformation period to which Elheru alluded, the High Command and the Syrannites considered each other to be following poor interpretations of Surak's teachings, essentially casting themselves as holders of the "true" path of Surak.

Here's some fun dialogue from The Forge:
"This site is called Gateway, where Surak supposedly began his journey into the Forge."
"You keep saying supposedly. You don't believe Surak did the things they said he did?"
"He brought logic to Vulcan, in an age we call the Time of Awakening, but his writings from that period no longer exist."
"There must be some record of it."
"Over the centuries, his followers made copies of his teachings."
"Let me guess. With the originals lost, whatever's left is open to interpretation."
"You find this amusing?"
"I find it familiar. We should get moving."
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist

"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin

User avatar
NecronLord
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
Posts: 27129
Joined: 2002-07-07 06:30am
Location: The Lost City

Re: Any good sources on Vulcan philosophy?

Post by NecronLord » 2018-08-25 09:54am

For what it's worth the mutant Romulan strain called Remans definately have powerful telepaths. I really don't think here's canon evidence to think that Romulans don't have telepathy to some degree.
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth

User avatar
Gandalf
SD.net White Wizard
Posts: 14564
Joined: 2002-09-16 11:13pm
Location: A video store in Sydney, Australia

Re: Any good sources on Vulcan philosophy?

Post by Gandalf » 2018-08-26 01:57am

The Remans were an offshoot of Romulans? When did that happen?
"Oh no, oh yeah, tell me how can it be so fair
That we dying younger hiding from the police man over there
Just for breathing in the air they wanna leave me in the chair
Electric shocking body rocking beat streeting me to death"

- A.B. Original, Report to the Mist

"I think it’s the duty of the comedian to find out where the line is drawn and cross it deliberately."
- George Carlin

User avatar
FaxModem1
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 6759
Joined: 2002-10-30 06:40pm
Location: In a dark reflection of a better world

Re: Any good sources on Vulcan philosophy?

Post by FaxModem1 » 2018-09-07 11:45am

Gandalf wrote:
2018-08-26 01:57am
The Remans were an offshoot of Romulans? When did that happen?
I think since Nemesis. They're the early Romulans/Vulcans who settled on Remus and evolved overtime to a constant night environment. And somehow over time became the slaves of the Romulans on Romulus.
Image

Post Reply